An Economist response, or is it a techie Sunday?

Oh, dear it looks as though I have to disagree with an economist again.  But this time it is the magazine rather than an individual. As has been pointed out, and to an extent discussed in recent comments thanks to which I was able to read the initial article, the Economist came out with an article this past week that suggested that the current problems with the supply of oil are not really serious, or long-term.

There are several ways to address the issues of the article (you will have to wait a bit for discussion of the author's book since I only ordered it on Friday), but it appears to me that a primary criticism has to lie in the misunderstanding that the author appears to have about the role of technology and the slow speed with which things happen.  I am not going to argue the point that there is still a lot of oil lying around.  Yes there is, and even when we have depleted a field, we are leaving perhaps 60% or more of the original oil in place.  And yes, given enough money and time we can even get that oil out.

Nor am I going to argue, at present about the longer-term existence of large volumes of oil. Rather, I would argue that the problem that we have is of getting an adequate supply of oil, each year, to meet the demand that there will be for the oil in that year.  Under the current methods of production, and against an increasing level of demand  it is becoming more difficult to produce enough oil to meet that demand.  There are two major reasons for this, neither of which is properly recognized in the Economist article.  

The first, and most critical issue, is the one that we call depletion.  When an oilwell is first put into production, the oil flows into the well due to the pressure difference between the fluid in the rock, and the fluid in the well.  If there is no difference in pressure, then no oil flows, (see Newton) and the greater the difference in pressure, then the higher the oil flow rate.  As the oil flows out of the well, however, it reduces the pressure in the fluid. (Simple, crude experiment - get a bottle of soda water, shake it up and stand it in the sink.  Open the top.  The gas pressure will drive some of the water out of the bottle, but after a short while the pressures are equal and more than half the water is still in the bottle. )

This basic knowledge has been around for a long time, and it has been recognized that it gets harder to get the oil out, and that it flows more slowly, as the volume of oil that is left in the rock around the well goes down.  (And generally a single well can only, realistically drain the rock out to a certain distance from its location). Historically that number has been considered to that the well will deplete (or reduce production) by about 5% every year, from its peak level.

But this has recently changed, and the change has both merits that the Economist understands, and pitfalls that they don't appear to have heard of.  The change comes about with the increasing practice of pumping water into the ground under the oil layer, so that as the oil flows out, water is pumped in to replace it, and the driving pressure remains the same. This extends the life that the well has at the higher pumping rate, but it has two downsides.  The first is that it is very hard to control how the water flows up through the rock toward the well.  And if the well is in the wrong geological conditions, then the water can get to the well before all the oil is removed, and production is lost.

To solve this problem, and also to increase flow rate, there has been a move towards a second innovation, where the oilwells, that used to be vertical, now curve over and run horizontally along and through the oil-bearing rock.  They can also now be built so that instead of just a single well bore running through the rock, the drill is backed and re-run so that the well has a number of small offshoots from the main well as it goes through the rock.  This is known as maximum reservoir contact or "bottle-brush" drilling.  If can increase the volume flow from an individual well from a few hundred barrels a day to up to 10,000 bd.  

I borrowed this slide from one of Matt Simmons presentations.

Unfortunately it is not increasing the actual oil volume in the ground, nor in many cases, is in giving much more total volume of oil from the field than might have been obtained conventionally (Matt Simmons would argue that it might give less).  Thus the first effect is that it shortens the life of the field.  The second, and this has only been appreciated in the past decade, is that it also means that when the oil now starts to deplete, it drops at a much faster rate.  Examples from Oman and the North Sea have shown that the number is now in the range around 15% rather than 5%, and thus fields that were expected to retain a long life in decline are now showing that instead it will be brutally short.

The second critical issue that the Economist is not able to properly understand relates to the historic nature of oilfield discovery and development.  Generally the larger fields in a region are found first.  They are also, obviously, usually the first to be developed and produced, and as they deplete, the production moves on to exploit the next largest (of which there are more) and as these deplete so smaller fields are exploited, of which a greater number must be found and produced to maintain or increase overall production each year.

It is only when these two critical factors are considered that the underlying weakness of the current world oil situation can be understood. The Saudi Oil Ministry has admitted to a depletion rate of around 800,000 bd/year, Iran to about 400,000 b/d, to name but two.  

If you are going to match that depletion and increase production you have to drill more oil wells.  And this is where the second catch comes in, because the new wells will not, in general, be as productive as the old ones, so you have to drill more of them.  So now some of us start doing mathematics and multiplying number of rigs x wells per rig x production per well and getting numbers for the new production, to match both depletion and increase, that a country can achieve in a year. We also look at the volumes of new production that are planned by the companies (and Chris Skrebowski's list is looking to be more comprehensive now than that of CERA).  Bear in mind that horizontal wells take longer to drill than verticals, so you can't get as many of them in a year, and if you are drilling with water injection then you have to drill the water injection holes as well. And also (and this is where the USGS may have slipped a bit) as fields age, so the success rate in finding new fields goes down, and a greater number of wells have to be drilled to give the same number that find a productive volume.  This is why a number of us at this site have an interest in exactly how many rigs are really out there producing. For example the new development at Kurais, which will produce 1.2 mbd has been projected to need 400 wells (at 3,000 bd/well), and at 6 wells/rig/year this will take 20 rigs three and a half years.

Having said all that as background, it is not unreasonable to assume a number for the depletion of existing wells that lies around 5%, but for which there are legitimate reasons to argue could also be around 8% (As Schlumberger, for example, has suggested). At the lower level world production from existing wells is falling at around 4.2 mbd/year; at 8% it is falling at 6.7 mbd/year. Thus, over the next 5 years, just to sustain production, we have to find between 21 and 33 mbd of oil. When CERA says that we are going to find 15 mbd in that time frame, you can understand why the question of the depletion rates that are assumed become of critical concern.  And since this is going to cause some debate, let me give one of those quiet coughs, and point out that those who say that depletion rates have been overestimated were those who were also saying that the UK would be self-sufficient in oil and gas until 2010. (And that North Slope depletion had stopped).  The recent comment that Saudi Arabia tries to hold depletion to 2% through increased in-field drilling and new discoveries is not exactly a boost of confidence to that argument.

Unfortunately the article also has no apparent understanding of how long it takes to develop a field.  Nor of some of the geo-political problems that have been covered in posts and comments at this site.   The comment

It is true that the big firms are struggling to replace reserves. But that does not mean the world is running out of oil, just that they do not have access to the vast deposits of cheap and easy oil that are left in Russia and members of the Organisation of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC). And as the great fields of the North Sea and Alaska mature, non-OPEC oil production will probably peak by 2010 or 2015. That is soon--but it says nothing of what really matters, which is the global picture.
This does not recognize the dramatic drops in production that have already occurred in both the North Sea and North Slope, and implies you should believe that they are still at peak levels, it also seems to suggest that there are great gains in production to the world to be expected of Russia and the Middle East.  As has been noted in several posts and comments here, those statements cannot be justified by the facts.

Thus when the article goes on to

For one thing, the nightmare scenario of Ghawar suddenly peaking is not as grim as it first seems. When it peaks, the whole "super-giant" will not drop from 5m bpd to zero, because it is actually a network of inter-linked fields, some old and some newer. Experts say a decline would probably be gentler and prolonged. That would allow, indeed encourage, the Saudis to develop new fields to replace lost output. Saudi Arabia's oil minister, Ali Naimi, points to an unexplored area on the Iraqi-Saudi border the size of California, and argues that such untapped resources could add 200 billion barrels to his country's tally.
it fails to recognize that some parts of Ghawar have peaked some years ago, as has overall production from the field. Further that the concern is that, with increasing numbers of wells in the field being "bottle brush", that when the decline comes it will, in fact, be the same 15% or more that we are now also anticipating for Cantarell, and that we see in the North Sea and saw in Yibal.  The length of time that it will take to develop new fields is finite, and that is the critical value of the CERA and Skrebowski lists, because in the immediate short term these are the only new projects that can be anticipated within this decade.  Even if 200 billion were found on the border (and if you look at a map there are known fields up there already) it will still take years to develop and bring them into production.

This is already getting way too long but let me throw you a few more bones, and then I'll quit.

The notion of a sharp global peak in production does not withstand scrutiny, either. CERA's Peter Jackson points out that the price signals that would surely foreshadow any "peak" would encourage efficiency, promote new oil discoveries and speed investments in alternatives to oil. That, he reckons, means the metaphor of a peak is misleading: "The right picture is of an undulating plateau."
Nope, no price signals around here that I can see! How about you?  Seen much increase in efficiency so far? Me neither!

. Kenneth Rogoff, a Harvard professor and the former chief economist of the IMF, thinks concerns about peak oil are greatly overblown: "The oil market is highly developed, with worldwide trading and long-dated futures going out five to seven years. As oil production slows, prices will rise up and down the futures curve, stimulating new technology and conservation. We might be running low on $20 oil, but for $60 we have adequate oil supplies for decades to come."
Hmm, wonder who is going to be developing that technology - can't be DOE they are cutting budgets, can't be those who know what they're doing, they are all either getting rich or retiring, and the world-wide shortage of engineers that is developing means that the new crop will likely go to production rather than research.

But the main hope that he throws to us is alternate fuels.  

Despite today's obsession with the idea of "peak oil", what really matters to the world economy is not when conventional oil production peaks, but whether we have enough affordable and convenient fuel from any source to power our current fleet of cars, buses and aeroplanes. With that in mind, the global oil industry is on the verge of a dramatic transformation from a risky exploration business into a technology-intensive manufacturing business. And the product that big oil companies will soon be manufacturing, argues Shell's Mr Van der Veer, is "greener fossil fuels".

After all

But if the peak were to come after 2020 or 2030, as the International Energy Agency and other mainstream forecasters predict, then the rising tide of alternative fuels will help transform it into a plateau and ease the transition to life after oil.
Wonder if he has any clue as to how much agribusiness will be required to replace 15 mbd of oil? Many of the techniques he mentions at the end will help towards a reduction in the size of the problem we are starting to face.  Unfortunately the Kern River produces only   570,000 bd of oil, and now needs 33,000 wells to do this (with annual drilling of new wells at levels of up to 2,000 per year.
Rather, I would argue that the problem that we have is of getting an adequate supply of oil, each year, to meet the demand that there will be for the oil in that year.

This is exactly the point I have been trying to hammer home. I honestly believe we are not yet at a peak in production, but for all practical purposes it doesn't matter since demand will increase as fast as new supply can be brought online. We are opening up a serious supply/demand imbalance. Call it "Peak Lite" if you will. It will have practically the same effects as a true production peak, without the same level of panic that will accompany a production peak.

RR

I agree with your point about "Peak Lite".  To me, it would be less controversial if we concentrated on "demand exceeding supply" rather than the technical "Peak Oil".  Most people can understand "demand exceeds supply" which is probably what is happening now.  We all know we will only know we are at peak after it has happened, anyway.
Right now, the press and public are trying to figure out who to blame for high prices.  We hear "Iran and Nigeria", or "The Big Oil Companies".  If it become well known that China, Japan, and Europe are trying to outbid us for the worlds oil production, and there's not enough to go around, that would sink pretty quick to almost everybody' head.  Once they get that concept, soon to be decreasing production would be a much smaller step.
PH
"If it become well known that China, Japan, and Europe are trying to outbid us .... "

This is the exact argument that worked with my father, an old timer in the patch. "As long as China is willing to pay more than we are, prices will continue to explode. It has nothing (little) to do with speculators or Big Oil." And then the warning: "And oil hasn't even peaked yet!"

Ok, in the meantime it probably has.

Robert,

I've assumed for a couple of years now that "peak oil" would be an economic, rather than geologic, phenomenon.

There's still be lots of oil, even when it costs $200 a barrel.

What we're really dealing with is peak culture.

Amen
i second the amen.. in response to both RR and Don
. . . since demand will increase as fast as new supply can be brought online. We are opening up a serious supply/demand imbalance. Call it "Peak Lite" if you will. It will have practically the same effects as a true production peak, without the same level of panic that will accompany a production peak.

 I think we need a TOD lexicon and I wish to propose that what RR describes above may better be called a Logistics Peak to distinguish it from the actual Physical Peak
 

 I don't know who first introduced the term Logistics Peak; I do know it was not me and therefore someone else should get the credit. I do think it would help the clarity of our discussions if we distinguish between these two peak events.

Crude Shortage or Recoverable Crude Shortage?

Rick

Also known as "technical peak".

Mariano Marzo, geologist and Spanish member of ASPO, talks about an iceberg. The part above water is the technical or logistical peak, plus geopolitics, that is the part every informed observer must acknolewdge is very real. The bigger part of the iceberg, hidden from view, is peak oil, the physical, geological peak. We know it exists, but unfortunately we can calculate (as with real icebergs) its size (ie: when and at what rate).

Ouch, that must be "acknowledge", and "unfortunately we can't calculate".

Sorry, no English mothertongue and such...

What I find fascinating is the close correlation between the Lower 48 and North Sea (crude + condensate) HL plots.  The Lower 48 peaked in 1970, just shy of 50% of Qt.  The North Sea peaked in 1979, just over 50% of Qt.  

This is a 29 year difference, with considerably better technology in the North Sea, but the North Sea peaked at almost exactly the same HL point as the Lower 48. The P/Q intercept on the North Sea plot does accurately suggest its greater decline rate, but as I have suggested before this is roughly analogous to the rate at which you pour water out of a bottle.  

The rate at which you pour water out of a bottle does not affect the volume of water in the bottle.  Within limits, this is roughly true for oil fields, as long as you do not produce the field at a high enough rate to damage the reservoir.  I think that a lot of people are mistaking a "higher pour rate" for a higher recovery via better technology.  

The 1999 Economist cover story ("$5 Oil"), just as the North Sea started declining, marked the beginning of the oil price increase from $10 to $75.  

I expect that the current cover will mark the beginning of a price increase from $75 to something a lot higher, as the world crosses over the 50% of Qt mark (just like the North Sea in 1999).  Who knows what the price will be?  Matt Simmons estimate of $200, in 2010, in constant 2005 dollars is as good as any.  (Unless we have a severe recession/depression or a bird flu outbreak.)

 The North Sea peaked in 1999, just over 50% of Qt.  
If you do a Google News Search for Declining Net Oil Imports (or Exports), you get my MSM article as #1.  As best that I can tell, none of the other listings really address the possibility of declining net oil export capacity.  How's that for a scary thought?   (You also get my article as #1 if you search under Mainstream Media.)

Either I'm wrong, or it never occurred to the MSM to even question export capacity.  

When the Energy Bulletin posted the article that Khebab and I did, "M. King Hubbert's Lower 48 Prediciton Revisted," (in which we explicitly warned aobut declining net export capacity), if you did a Google News Search under Declining Russian Oil Production, you also got that article as #1 for a couple of weeks.  Since we did that article, the Russian Energy Minister has warned about the possibility of a "real collapse in oil production," and the IEA has started warning about Russian oil production problems.  

We will see if a similar pattern regarding exports pops up. But it's kind of lonely out there for Khebab and me.    Is that weird or what that no media groups appear to be addressing the net export question?  They talk about produciton problems, but nary a mention of the possibility of actual declines in net exports.  

Westtexas,

I think you are doing a lot of excellent work, which, in a another world should be given frontpage space in the mainstream media. Unfortunatley, we're stuck with the world with got. I also think we're going to see 'logistical' or 'bottleneck' problems arising way before 'geological' peak. I just don't see how 'supply' can keep up with 'demand' in the furure, especially given the enormous growth we are seeing in China and India. Something has got to give somewhere.

Whilst we are less familiar with concepts like logistical peak, surely the idea of 'bottlenecks' in the economy is far more easily understood and studied? I know it doesn't sound as 'fancy' as some other terminology, but isn't it what we are really talking about? The oil is still in the ground, but for a variety of reasons, we just can't get it out of the ground in sufficient quantities to supply growing demand.

But isn't that what the Hubbert peak has always been? In fact, the Hubbert model is called elsewhere in the literature the "Logistic Model," satisfying an equation equivalent (after changes of scale) to the ordinary differential equation dq/dt =q((1-q). It initially grows exponentially (oil fields don't actually behave this way, so Hubbert taught us to discard the "early-early" production), but it "saturates" and it gets harder and harder to produce as the total supply is exhausted (far past peak).

The peak in lower US without Alaska production about 35 years ago arose from an inability to get new wells to replace fully the depleting old wells. The biggest, easiest fields are pumped out first; as they deplete, the industry drills more, less productive wells,...

Alaska overwhelmed that depletion when it came on, but now it's depleteing rapidly, too. BTW, it seems to me that the early (pre-peak) tail of the Alaska production shifted the 1971 peak in total US production a little later than Hubbert's original prediction, as well as introducing a smaller, secondary peak on the down-slope. I think Deffeyes' more recent books show a slightly different version than Hubberts original paper, but I don't have the numbers to check this hypothesis.

When near the all-time peak in production (let's use the word "peak" ONLY for the maximum of some identified mathematical function unless we're talking about mountain ranges), the capacity to bring new production on line is limited, so spot shortages and price volatility reign. And we won't be sure this was the all-time maximum production until years later, when we're well below it and can no longer hope to return to it.

Re:  Logistic(s) Versus Logistic

I think that there has been some confusion regarding logistics, as in getting wells drilled completed, producing and getting the oil to market--versus the mathematical term.  

In regard to the Lower 48 versus Total US, IMO you need to define what you want.  If you want a model for the world, you should use Lower 48.  If you want a reserve estimate for the US, you should use total production.  

Actual post-1970 Lower 48 cumulative production was 99% of what the HL model predicted, using only production data through 1970.   I don't think that it is a coincidence that we are seeing record high nominal oil prices and falling total US petroleum imports on the downside of the 50% of Qt mark worldwide.  

Below is the link to the 1999 article

http://economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=188181

Economists are the most difficult breed to convince about energy issues that we are facing today.

From what I've read the term the "Big Rollover" seems to be used by some for the time when oil demand exceeds that which can be brought to market, resulting in significant price increases. (I thought I had some links on this but failed to find them)

Though it might be seen as some kind of 'economic' or 'market' oil peak a little reflection will indicate it is likely to be mild rehearsal for the effects of the real, physical, production peak.

Current data seem to suggest we are not at this "Big Rollover" yet. Prices over the last 3 years have been on a reasonably constant +0.3 slope ( = increasing 30% annually). One might expect a period of parabolic increase when it does happen as prices and speculation increase rapidly to the point where oil becomes almost unaffordable to virtually everyone and significant demand destruction begins. I would expect oil prices to exceed $250 / bbl at that time, possibly briefly reach $1000. The big rollover could happen before or after the date of peak oil as defined by maximum physical production, best hope it is before since that gives more time for adjustment and a lesser supply shortfall - for a brief time, at least.

Here are three recent articles that discuss aspects of oil economics and markets from different perspectives, I think they are all worth a read:
http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/20060424-mon.html#anchor3
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/gue/2006/0324.html
http://www.safehaven.com/article-5008.htm

I think everyone would rather see the rainbow than the storm.

A bit off topic, but is there a page that describes the 'defcon' system for peak oil? Not the defense defcon system described in Wikipedia, I can find that.

Does it go something like this:

  • 0: Bluegreen algae. Maybe a few hydrothermal-vent barnacle type varmints.
  • 1: Rats & roaches. Pockets of vertebrate life.
  • 2: A remnant human population somewhere ekes out a stoneage existence.
  • 3: A population and some technology. Some chemistry survives, and improves the scavenging ability of the survivors.
  • 4: A billion or so human survivors. There's a good record of the catastrophe and people can learn from it.
  • 5: The happy ending: people learn to ride that bicycle and lead healthier lives. Technology continues to advance...
?
Numbers 2 and 3 seem to be the most likely to me.
6. We replace oil. The UMW gets rich mining coal and the OCAW gets rich building synfuel plants.
I devised something similar that I called "Levels of Collapse":
http://theslide.blogspot.com/2006/01/levels-of-collapse-warning-may-be.html

I've posted it here before. I would really like to know of any other attempts to explore this concept, I've seen none.

How about adding a zero level of collapse? Something like this...
Price of oil increases radically as peak arrives, slowly falls as synfuels and battery cars cut demand for gasoline and diesel fuel. No demographic changes.
To quote Elvis Costello "I used to be disgusted, now I try to stay amused"

I see no profit in arguing with these people.

The reality is unfolding in the near-term.  

HO, your post is long, but extremely valuable; thank you.  We are clearly reaching a stage in the public debate where these sorts of issues will need to be addressed in painstaking detail.

One issue that you did not address, which makes me wish your post had been even longer:  The whole question of whether cutting edge technology of both the present and the reasonably anticipated future will increase URR in existing fields.  And further:  If so, why; and if not, why not?  

Did the ECONOMIST article have anything to say about that; and if so, how would you reply?

(One thing to duly note in this connection is Matt Simmons claim that horizontal/bottlebrush technology will DECREASE URR.  Why is that?)

I would think that one crucial issue that arises with the potential of hi-tech to raise URR is EROEI.  Fundamentally, there may be many advanced technologies that are technically feasible and WOULD serve to increase URR - but these same technologies are as a matter of basic physics so energy-intensive to implement that one might as well just forget it and leave the oil beyond original URR in the ground.  I.e., many technically feasible technologies to increase URR can, as a matter of basic physics, be implemented only with an EROEI of less than 1:1.

Based on your own concrete expertise, how relevant is this angle on the question?

That's also something I was thinking when I read the initial essay. From this part here:

Yes there is, and even when we have depleted a field, we are leaving perhaps 60% or more of the original oil in place.  And yes, given enough money and time we can even get that oil out.

We should also note that even given enough time and money, a poor EROEI may prevent the oil from ever being extracted. I don't think a lot of people understand this. I have gotten into this debate over the tar sands in Canada. Yes, there are a lot of reserves. But the low EROEI means that we are going to expend tremendous energy processing them, and a substantial fraction of the tar sands are probably not recoverable due to poor EROEI.

RR

To a certain extent you might stomach a negative EROEI for something like oil extraction simply because the end product turns out to be more efficient in applications like transportation.

For example, say you have a 2:1 EROEI using coal- or nuclear- or whatever-generated electricity to extract fuel oil for use in trains, planes, and automobiles (and ships, and trucks, and so on). Say also that you can convert said vehicles to use this electricity directly for power, but at a 3:1 EROEI. In this case, it makes sense to burn energy in the extraction process.

This is the argument that is made for using coal to make ethanol. It might make economic sense, but it's not an environmentally friendly answer. Regardless, I think this is going to be an increasing trend in future ethanol plants.

RR

That's an important point.  Insofar as the input energy to obtain a certain quantity of liquid fuels comes from (relatively plentiful) coal or from (already existing) nuclear power, it may effectively not factor into the denominator of the EROEI ratio under certain circumstances.

Which raises the following question:  What percentage of the energy-inputs used to extract liquid fossil fuels is ITSELF derived from liquid fossil fuels?  And what percentage thereof is typically derived from natural gas - which, unlike coal, is also scarce, limited, and desireable in particular ways that coal is not?

This seems to be the Peter Huber arguement discused here on TOD some time ago.

Yes, negative EROEI items can provide  great conveinance (and be quite profitable) such as the Duracells in my remote.

But as energy supplies contract, how long can any energy sink -- of any kind -- remain viable?

EROEI is a really useful number, but it has to be understood what it means.

Operations that have an EROEI less than 1 are still useful, we do them all the time in converting one form of energy to the form that we want it in.

The thing to realise is that when EROEI is less than 1, we're not talking about an energy source .

>>The thing to realise is that when EROEI is less than 1, we're not talking about an energy source . <<

Yes. That was my point regarding duracell batteries; they're convienent, but energy sinks.

That is, of course, the gazillion dollar question. However, since we don't have any alternatives to energy sinks in this universe, we need to do what we can to extend the lives of what we have. Right now our problem is that what we have is only going to get us through 100 years at the hugely, unbelievably optimistic best, and we humans seem to want to be comfortable a little longer than that.

Anyway, my only point was that EROEI is probably not going to be (and probably should not) the limiting factor on oil extraction.

How abot stomaching a negative EROEI simply because the material you aextracting has the right qualities for producing a highly useful and valuable product?  Plastics anyone?

Even when EROEI is very negative we will continue to extract oil simply because it is more than a fuel, it is a feedstock and an industrial material.  Maybe it'll also be a reserve currency, like gold, only dirtier and flammable.

The EROEI is important, ofcourse.
But in the oil-extraction business one can
even see a negative energy return, which still makes sense.
For instance, one could use Nucular powers stations to generate steam for huff 'n puff in thick oil.
This takes a lot of energy, but it gives us the presious
dinosaur blood we so desperatly need...
Thank god it's premium content.  That's my excuse for not reading it.  Weren't these the guys predicting 5 bucks a barrel back in the 90's?