C2C – the Emerging Energy Technologies Summit – day 2

Well they sure are hospitable folks down here, they laid on Seattle weather here today for their Dean, who hails from those parts. Unfortunately Bill Mitchell, the first speaker in the session on Sustainable Development Communities was taken ill and could not make the meeting, so that the following two speakers were given extra time to fill in the gap. (I will forego the UCSB PR that was the intro to the day – but will cover a bit at the end, since it paid for my trip).

The responses to the evolving crisis in Energy Supply will have to be addressed in several ways, and the first session of the morning looked at the development of sustainable communities, in particular focusing on Chula Vista and the work of the National Energy Center for Sustainable Communities, itself part of the Global Energy Center and an affiliation of universities in addressing the issues of urban sustainability given

In the United States, for example, 80% of the population lives in cities. Their buildings, transportation and urban infrastructure account for 80% of U.S. energy consumption, and 70% of that amount is determined by how and where Americans design their neighborhoods. Low-density development in the U.S. consumes 85% more energy, 70 times more water, 50 times more lumber and 40 times more land than higher-density development of the same square footage.

This being CA and the times being what they are, it was also stressed that urban areas are responsible for 75% of the GHG emissions. This was one of Doug Newman’s opening comments as he talked about the goals that the Center and the Department of Energy have in setting up this effort to build what hopefully will become an international model of a sustainable community. It is important at the community level when one considers that power outages, which impact communities, cost $119 billion a year, and that energy costs are second only to labor in community expenses.
UPDATE Byron Washom's remarks have been corrected - my apologies for the error.



Building a sustainable community is, however, not just something that is done by universities unloading a set of new technologies onto the community. It requires community planning and the creation of public policy, and for those to be effective, they require that there must also be some economic, market and behavioral studies to give input in the formulation of those policies.

And so, recognizing that this could not be a piecemeal approach, three disparate communities within Chula Vista, (pdf) map here Village 2, the Eastern Urban Center and Village 9 were selected.

In essence the idea is to take the development plans in these communities, evaluate each using computer models to evaluate, inter alia, energy use, and to ensure that development ideas will work, and to then make recommendations. Out of the exercise it is anticipated that a plan of action will evolve and be refined, that will give two Reference Guides for the future of such communities. One will be a Guide for Development Professionals, and the other a Guide for State Agencies and Financial Entities.

The idea is also, once a baseline has been established, to model options and, after policy and feasibility reviews, to then identify 20 projects in which to install showcase technologies and then to create a national demonstration site for other communities. And I must apologize in that there was a video shown on the program at lunch, and I missed the reference and was too late to get one, but I believe that you can get a free copy here . (I hope so ‘cos I just tried ordering one).

Larisa Dobriansky who first was involved with the program while at the Department of Energy, and unfortunately her laptop had a problem and so she read her speech – and I must apologize, but she talked too fast for me to get it all down, though it was largely about the same project as the previous speaker.

Looking at the anticipated growth in energy demand – something on the order of a four-fold multiplication – there will be many consequences, but these will fall disproportionately on transitional societies. And we have to find a better solution than the status quo, or it will get worse. Yet these solutions must fit within the existing infrastructure and provide for viable development. Sustainability must occur at all levels, and thus developing an energy smart community makes sense. It has been the energy insensitive developments of the past that have given us our reputation as profligate users, particularly in regard to our use of low density housing. But the blame must also go to an energy distribution system that by being centralized, and invisible, has become rigidified as it responded to the initial incentives and created barriers against evolution. The emphasis must change so that instead of having fuel use the first priority, that instead goes to the service provision first, and the actual fuel source last. This will allow the combination of functions (this is well illustrated in the video) and thereby major savings in energy. It will allow optimization of land use, and the creation of micro-grids that can be more responsive to fluctuating need and supply.

The next speaker was Ernst von Weizsacker , Dean of the School of Environmental Science and Management at UCSB, who noted that applications for admission to that school and the environmental program had tripled over the past nine months, in apparent recognition of the growing problem. Now I am going to have to step out of just straight reporting and, for reasons I will go into in more detail tomorrow, expand a little on what I think he said next.

He was talking about the talk that Dr James Hansen gave at UCSB last week on the impact of global warming, and I presume since the titles were the same it was likely close to this set of slides (pdf . What Dr Hansen had noted was the need for society to understand that it is too timid in speculation in regard to non-linear events. And as illustration of this he noted that about 800 years ago the ice pack over Labrador and Hudson Bay collapsed almost instantaneously creating a water level rise that showed, in coastal changes, of some 7 – 8 m. This was relatively rapid and his point (based on slides 23 and 24 in the above, which Dean von Weizsacker showed) is that those conditions, which can occur with unanticipated ferocity and speed, are occurring again over Greenland. (And I think that what he was referring to are what are known as an Heinrich event which is associated with Dansgaard-Oeschger conditions . The movement of the ice is exacerbated by the generation of freshwater flows within the ice, and below it, dropping the intra-structural friction and allowing sudden, and catastrophic movement. A condition, which is very similar to what we have now. Sometime later in the day one of the audience noted that the conference announcement slide shows an aerial view of the campus, pointing out that with such a water level rise UCSB would likely be underwater, including the hall wherein we were sitting.

I tried to recreate the greater picture because I believe that the point was that we are expecting this crisis to unfold slowly and with plenty of warning. This breeds a lack of urgency in seeking solutions. (As another example, when we talk about oil peaking - the concern is somewhat ameliorated if we say that there will be a long plateau before the decline). But history suggests that this may not be the case, and rather that a disaster can unfold with speeds beyond that allowing unprepared remediation.

Thus, if we are looking at the effects of increased CO2 levels on global warming, when levels are soon expected to double, when the urgency in reducing emissions by 60-80% is lost, then we open the future to the possibility of disaster.

The Dean had been heavily involved in energy research in Germany before coming to UCSB and talked with pride of their wind efforts, until he put up the slide that showed, in reality, how little that program was contributing to Germany’s overall energy supply. He then asked how many kWh it would take to carry a bucket of water weighing 20 lb from sea-level to the top of Mount Everest (answer at the bottom of the page) – after all this is academia and spot quizzes are still, I suppose, the norm. The point is that that power is still ridiculously cheap. He had written a book with Amory Lovins entitled Factor 4 showing a path to enhancing energy performance, reducing water and material consumption.

He noted that both he and Amory Lovins believe that there are many pathways to make dramatic reductions in the energy that we use. Passive house designs can reduce heating costs by 90%, refrigerator power can be dropped from 1,190 to 50 watts, with water use falling from 750 liters/kg to 1.5 liters in paper making. Modern Japanese practices lower the energy cost of making steel by a factor of 4. And it does not need to be new technology, while in Germany he looked at the transportation paths used in making strawberry yoghurt, and by only changing paths not the trucks themselves, found he could save significant energy.

There have been five technical waves of development in the past – we are now ripe for, and desperately need, the sixth wave. But to get it we have to change our mind set, and our level of complacency. We did not see great changes in labor productivity until the price of labor went up, and energy can be treated in much the same way.

In questions he noted that Santa Barbara has a plan to be carbon free by 33, but noted that this depends on many issues and that the scope for communities was limited. (Though it was interesting to wander around the student poster sessions at the break and see that UCSB has a group that is monitoring and improving the energy use in its research labs – ouch!).

There was then a panel discussion led by David Rohy and including Gary Barsley , Michal Moore , and Byron Washcom . They were asked first to define sustainability, David Rohy bemoaned the change in culture – for example who, today, repairs a toaster, or uses a solar clothes drier (a clothes line). And, to modest embarrassment of the speakers – who were using them, he pointed out the energy cost of bottled water. There are also the unintended consequences of change – the more energy efficient use of fluorescent lights has spread mercury, it takes four gallons of water to make a gallon of ethanol, and crime flourishes along public transportation routes. And when we start installing hydrogen filling stations can we anticipate the NIMBY attacks? It’s the culture, stupid!

Gary Barsley saw the crisis as an opportunity for entrepreneurship with the students (and again – out in the courtyard was a poster by one of the student Engineers without Borders projects, where they are encouraging the growth and harvesting of Jatropha in Mali). With an ageing work force how does industry attract the “best and the brightest” – his answer was to provide a sustainable environment. He did object to plans for a local LNG port, he feels that installing one just delays the need to face the fact of energy depletion.

Michal Moore, with a Canadian perspective, asked if the object was to conserve or preserve ? Is the world a series of polaroid shots, where answers, once found, are installed and forgotten, or is it a movie, where the challenges are constantly reviewed and answers updated. He expressed concern about the 2-m dams holding the mining waste at the Athabasca Oil Sands, given that, should they fail, the silt will enter the Athabasca River, which will carry it up to the Arctic Sea, and the fish breeding grounds.

We must learn to ask the right questions, which might have led to butanol rather than corn ethanol (butanol might be better harvested from sugar beets – to answer a question I got asked at lunch). Alternately using porous brick with grass in the hollows would allow sidewalks that would allow rainfall to immediately percolate the ground instead of flooding into drains. We must create standards and enforce them, relying on volunteers does not work! And price can be a signal.

Byron Washom brought an interestingly different viewpoint to the discussion, since his early childhood had been passed on a small island, far from the mainland, where they had to subsist on a gallon of water a day, with power coming from a diesel he named after his sister (since he never knew when it would cooperate), and where he did not associate the word “fresh” with meat”, but thought “freshfish” was one word. He noted that, in the coming crisis, it will be the poorer populations that will suffer earliest and worst, even though they have contributed least to the problem. Current demand for power in California is 60 GWe per year, but the growth of energy use in China exceeds 65 GWe a year, so that they are adding the equivalent of a Californian energy demand every year, using a set of technologies that will impose a 50-year mortgage that none of us can pay. It is thus important, not only that we create all the innovations that we can, but also that we make them available around the world.

From that point of view, the “sixth wave” of technical progress should be a disruptive wave, rather than one of logical progression. The energy business, because it has been heavily regulated for so long, is one of the slowest to adapt and needs that sort of action. He noted that when Prime Minister Blair introduced the initiative to work on global warming issues at the Gleneagles G-8 summit two years ago, he initially received a positive response for the governments attending. However, when the price of some $10-30 billion/year was presented those nations choked. He noted that this was not because of the reality of the message, but because of the price.

And yet the price need not be without return. In comments from the floor Dr. Alan Sweidler of CSU-San Diego pointed out that Tijuana has doubled its population without increasing water use, through an improvement in efficiency. Yet in Southern California they pay 32,000 kWh to move an acre-foot of water from the North to satisfy their demand. We have a culture that focuses on demand, with 80% of GDP based on consumer spending. And thus, yes, price can be a control. However, having come back from testifying before an Energy Committee in Congress he pointed out that there is zero, nada, zilch stomach for raising prices or taxes in this Congress.

To which Michal Moore retorted “the boomers are in power and are going to get run over by a very big train – and God Speed!” They are out of tune, out of date and should soon be out of office.

He talked about a Canadian solution, which is to start off with a minimal charge for the cost of energy/carbon generation. At this price no-one notices. But each year it is slowly increased. And gradually, over the years, it becomes significant – and creative folks start to find ways to use that cost to introduce change, and so, after 30-years, when the price has become severe, the culture has been changed.

However, it was also pointed out, that while it is great to be in vogue (and if I had suggested that Global Warming was not occurring I suspect I would have been held until men in white coats could be summoned to take me away, with the unanimous approval of all the audience), but the public are intolerant of the time that it takes for remediation. Thus, as the price becomes more evident, without visible solution, then the current popularity of the position will quickly fade into an adverse reaction.

There was then a break for lunch, while the video mentioned earlier was screened (it looked a bit science-fictiony but you should check it out for yourself, by getting a copy, since I only saw the end bit, and it is only 17 minutes long. Incidentally it was part of an international competition and placed second – Vancouver won).

After lunch Mike Corradini was the first of the speakers dealing with energy choices. The first session dealt with the nuclear option, with the background that, while the world population is growing, as is their energy demand, the majority of that growth is taking place in Asia, with rates of demand increase that exceed 8%. He noted that while the US is criticized for the share of energy that they use, as a percentage it has dropped from 50% of global use, some 50 years ago, to the present where it is about 22%. Yet it is the vital physical force that underpins the global system, and thus resources that provide that supply are critical.

In this regard he reviewed the amount of uranium that is available, as a function of supply, yet with cost a significant part of the choice. Nuclear power stations now run at more than 90% capacitance factor, and with costs of around 2.5 cents/kWh (coal is 4 cents/kWh) in part because the plants are older. But while in the short term improved energy production efficiency is the key, the question must be asked as to whether this should be driven by cost or by law.

He showed a slide with a rainbow ending in a Wisconsin nuclear plant, and noted the legend. Yet the last order for a plant in the US was in 1972, and it was completed in 1982, and the US still outproduces the combined nuclear power of France and Japan.

To meet demand, of the 104 plants in operation, 44 have been upgraded and approved for a 20-year plant operating extension; 34 have applied for such a permit, and 22 are in the process of getting one together. While recognizing that Chernobyl was a terrible design he noted that “there has not been a loss of life in the US due to commercial nuclear plants,” over teir life of operation to date. In the United States the constant vigilance to ensure that plants are upgraded with reliable replacement of components. All nuclear waste, to date, is securely stored and at 50,000 tons total would occupy a volume no greater than 2-3 times that of the hall in which the Conference was being held.

He reviewed the anticipated progress in nuclear plant design, and where new plants are likely to go in, but pointed out that nuclear is in competition with coal, and prices must be sufficiently realistic if the right choice is to be made. He considered nuclear use in providing process heat to supply other energy needs, the use of power stations to provide the process heat for Synfuel production, and also reviewed ways in which to minimize waste generation.

Two comments from the floor included one that nuclear costs should also include the costs incurred in mining and processing, and another that if the world is to see an increase in nuclear power then the populace should be convinced that it is needed.

Mujid Kazimi from MIT (the organizers found it very difficult to get industry spokespeople for this event) reviewed some of the Myths that have arisen about nuclear power. He further noted that while there has been no new permitting of nuclear plants, some plants had previously been permitted, but had then been mothballed, and one of these, in Tennessee, is going to come on line next year.

He felt that popular opinion is skewed against the reality of the situation, and re-emphasized the reliability of the nuclear stations. Further the power that they generate does not, in itself, have the military and geopolitical consequences that we are now seeing from the need for transportation fuels. He noted (in disabusing some of the myths) that nuclear power is not in decline, is not dangerous, is not too expensive, produces tolerable amounts of waste and does not lead to weapons proliferation.

The only real competition to future growth comes from coal power plants, and there are 100 of them on the nations drawing boards. Wind only works 30% of the time and it is nuclear that provides a great portion of the nations base load at an economic price. It is a technology that is, in relative terms, still new enough that it can be considerably improved, and there are lots of new ideas around of which he cited two, new fuel designs to give 50% more power per unit volume) and nanotechnology to solve some of the cooling problems and to up the power density.

A standard house consumes 2,400 kWh/year of energy which will generate 0.3 gms of fission products in 9 gm of uranium, wste is thus minimal relative to other energy producers. In 2004 the world used 0.07 million tons of uranium ore and so current reserves will last for several decades. Extraction and conversion costs run about $48/kg and $1/MWh is paid to the government for fuel disposal.

He discussed waste storage issues and gave a figure of 70 watts of heat per spent fuel assembly after a thousand years of storage. And while the debate over the fate of Yucca Mountain as a storage site is yet to be resolved there is really not hurry since the waste is currently safely stored (though expensive to the utilities storing it). There is a debate as to what should be done with plutonium, if it is burned in nuclear power plants (as in France) the storage life needed drops to a few hundred years.

He then talked about other possible uses for nuclear power, as an energy source for EOR for example, or in the oil sands, though if it were to be used to provide the energy for the oil shale development a higher-temperature reactor would need to be used to reach the temperatures needed for that process (at least as foreseen in the Shell method). It can provide base heat and hydrogen for refineries, and can be used to make synfuels and liquid fuels with a lower CO2 impact from production. And by changing from steam to Helium or carbon dioxide in the plants, size can be reduced considerably.

He noted that, because of perceived (rather than real) risks, nuclear power plants must pay a premium of 4% to lending institutions over that charged to those building coal-fired plants, and if that disincentive were removed, he believes that nuclear power would be introduced more rapidly into use.

When asked about the risks of earthquakes to stored waste at sites such as Diablo Canyon, he discussed the design of the individual storage units, where the contents are not pressurized, so that even in the unlikely case that the unit was breached, the contents would only slowly leak out.

The discussion then switched to coal, with Tim Appenzeller of National Geographic, who, as a journalist, had more of an outsiders view of the industry, that the stronger proponent oriented talks that were given on nuclear power. And yet such a need to sell the industry was un-necessary since, as his title noted :The Future is Black” which could be taken to mean that the future is coal, or that the problems that coal brings will darken our future prospects. And in fact his talk covered both aspects. In terms of greenhouse gases (GHG) oil and gas are mere pipsqueaks, relative to the amount of CO2 that is going to be injected into the air from the power plants that are coming. The volumes are likely to generate an atmosphere that will be equivalent to that which prevailed at the time of the Eocene., and the Arctic was sub-tropical. He noted the retreat of the glaciers, and that the rivers of clear water on the Greenland ice sheets were inducing massive instability. This is already giving problems, due to higher water levels in Bengal and the Maldives.

As a study of coal development he recommended “Coal – A Human History,” by Barbara Freese (Amazon says it only has 3 left, since I just ordered one). In that book the introduction of coal to London is given as first happening in 1306, but the stench of the smog was such that the King banned its use, until the deforestation of England meant that there was no alternative, nor source to produce horse shoes. It did give England, and the world, the Industrial Revolution, but also the peas soup fogs of the 50’s and early 60’s.

And so coal is again the fuel of the future, demand is rising faster than for any other fuel, it is cheap and abundant. While Peak Oil and Peak natural gas are here, there is enough coal, at current use levels, to last 200 years (100 in China). Coal is no longer the old dirty fuel that it was once considered to be, and the discussion of factors such as acid rain have disappeared from the front pages of the world. Labor intensities of production have fallen dramatically, and safety (outside of China) records are growing. It can either be gasified or liquefied, with China now having their first CTL plant, set to produce 20,000 bd at a cost of around $30 a barrel. In Illinois there is a fertilizer plant that is set to turn coal into synthetic diesel (though running a Prius on the fuel would, due to the conversion process put more CO2 into the air than from running an SUV).

Which illustrates the fact that coal is often an invisible fuel. The house owner who flips a clean switch on a white wall does not see electricity as coming from coal, nor as a dirty. The Internet user that moves 10 meg of data is not aware that they are using the energy from 2 lb of coal to do so, and so the public is unaware of the situation.

Without that awareness there will be no change, a conventional light bulb uses the power from 500 lb of coal that could be saved by changing to alternate lighting, but only 1 house in 15 has converted to the newer bulbs. So power demand rises, and the climate gets warmer. And with China set to overtake the US in GHG production within two years, they are unlikely to change their power generation methods, and so, the argument goes, “why should we?”

Thus the hope is that solutions such as sequestration of the carbon dioxide be considered, and so he concluded by discussing the different options for CO2 capture from power plants, since we are burning our best fuel source in the worst way.

To answer that challenge, or to better explain the situation Sally Benson from Lawrence Berkeley then talked about what carbon sequestration (underground injection and storage of the gas) entailed. After reviewing the inevitability of coal, she talked about the steps that must be undertaken to achieve sequestration. Firstly the CO2 must be captured from the power plant. This can be done, to differing degrees, before or after combustion (before entails a gasification phase – the IGCC power plants ). A conventional fuel stack gas only contains 14% CO2 and this is thus difficult to capture, and amine solutions have proved to be the best at this. (They absorb the gas, and are pumped away and heated so that when the gas is then emitted and recaptured it is in a much purer form). The third way of dealing with the problem is to burn the coal in an oxygen environment (known as the the Oxyfuel process ). There is apparently no current favorite for which technology will give the best results, IGCC had the lead, but conventional approaches are making a come-back.

Once the gas is captured it must be transported, and can then be pumped underground. There are three favored sites, as an aid in enhanced oil recovery , in deep saline formations, and in un-mineable coal seams.

With the gas (which must be buried deep enough that it liquefies and becomes supercritical) being lighter than water there is some concern to ensure that it remains trapped. The only major demonstration so far has been at the Sleipner oil field off Norway. However seismic surveys have proved that the site can be monitored and the security of the storage checked. The data suggests that the security is anticipated to be 99% over a period of 1,000 years. And there is the capacity to store more than a hundred years of production.

The final speaker in the session was Frank Alix who spoke about the benefits of using ammonia rather than amines for carbon capture. However, as he pointed out, the power stations are mandated to install “the best available technology,” so he can’t get a site for a full-scale test, since the first successful power station test will mandate that all stations would have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars making the conversions to the new system.

Both he and Sally recognized that sequestration would add significantly to the cost of burning the coal, or more relevantly to the consumer, to the price of electricity. And doubling the cost of a watt is not likely to be popular or accepted under the current situation. Thus while those who see the benefits are often supportive (such as NGO’s) the public acceptance is likely to be much more difficult.

The final panel was under the supervision of Daniel Weiss and included Sanjoy Banerjee (who I had met at the reception the evening before), Bill Freudenburg a sociologist, and Tim Appenzeller. In that discussion the time scale of the proposed solutions, relative to the imminence of the problem did come up, but the discussion seemed to focus more on whether consumers would pay more for remediation, with the conclusion being NO. Tim asked “How does one get people to care about an abstract process?” and without pain at the pump or switch, it won’t happen.

And on that slightly discouraging note, the conference was really over, though there was a PR presentation from USBC and a stunning presentation of some of the results of the work by Shuji Nakamura on the development of the blue/green LEDs and the power saving that can be achieved with the use of these devices.

And so we left, out into a wet evening, much better informed, and enlightened, yet with some discouragement at the prospects. Oh, and thanks Jim for your tolerence of my scribbling through all the presentations, I appreciated your comments on this site, but modesty forebade that I admit my identity.

(Quiz answer quarter of a kWh)

Low-density development in the U.S. consumes 85% more energy, 70 times more water, 50 times more lumber and 40 times more land than higher-density development of the same square footage

This is the source of the indirect oil (and energy) savings that building Urban Rail creates. A substantial minority of people WANT the TOD (Transit Orientated Design) choice IF it is available today, with low oil prices.

As we shift into post-Peak Oil that minority will grow. But we are FAR from satisfying that demand today.

Best Hopes,

Alan

My plan to reduce US oil use by 10% in ten to twelve years

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_lrt_2006-05a.htm

A list of "on-the-shelf" Urban Rail projects that I have developed (any oversights welcomed)

Albuquerque – Light Rail and Commuter Rail plans
Atlanta - Beltway Light Rail, Northern suburbs Light Rail extension, downtown streetcar
Austin - Two Light Rail Lines plus Commuter rail and downtown streetcars
Baltimore - East-West Light Rail Line, 4 mile extension to current subway
Birmingham AL – Streetcar lines
Boston - All rail plans promised as environmental offset to "Big Dig" Buffalo - Planned extensions to current light rail subway
Charlotte - All plans currently scheduled
Chicago – Expansions to Metra, South Shore Line
Cincinnati –Light Rail plans voted down
Columbus OH – Light Rail and streetcar lines
Corpus Christi TX – Streetcar line
Dallas - All plans through 2015 and all 2015-2030 options (roughly 145 mile system)
Dayton OH – Streetcar plans
Denver - 117 miles of Light Rail and Commuter Rail (already locally funded)
El Paso – Downtown to Border Light Rail
Ft. Lauderdale – Light Rail and streetcar plans under active development
Honolulu – Line currently under development
Houston - All plans voted for, 65 new miles light rail 8 miles commuter
Indianapolis – Light Rail Line plans
Kansas City – Light Rail Line proposed
Las Vegas – Light Rail plans
Little Rock – Short extensions of existing streetcar line, Light Rail line
Los Angeles - Red Line "Subway to the Sea", Vermont Avenue subway, XX miles of Light Rail, electric trolley bus plan, electrify commuter rail
Louisville KY – Light Rail line plans
Madison WS – Streetcar and Commuter Rail plans
Memphis – At least two Light Lines in comprehensive plan
Miami - 103 miles of elevated Rapid Rail (subway type) + Miami Beach streetcar (already locally funded) 90% of the population would be within 3 miles of a station, half within 2 miles of a station
Minneapolis-St. Paul - Central Light Rail connector between the cities, Northstar commuter rail
Missoula MN – Commuter Rail
Nashville – Commuter Rail in process
New Orleans – Desire Streetcar Line, Riverfront Streetcar Line extensions
New York City - 2nd Avenue Subway, 3rd Tunnel under Hudson, Penn to Grand Central connection, Staten Island Light Rail, New Jersey Light Rail extension, commuter rail improvements
Norfolk – Light Rail Plans in progress
Ogden UT – Streetcar plans
Orange County CA – Center Line Light Rail plan voted down
Orlando – Light Rail plan voted down
Philadelphia – City Branch, Roosevelt Blvd. extension of Broad Street subway
Phoenix - 90 miles of Light Rail already approved Pittsburgh - Two Light Rail Lines north from current, under construction line Portland - Green Line (both routes, one funded, other "studied" for future), Streetcar both sides river
Raleigh-Durham NC – Streetcar plans
Sacramento – Additional Light Rail expansion
San Antonio – Light Rail plans voted down
St. Louis - All plans evaluated, perhaps 100 mile system
Salem OR – Streetcar plans Salt Lake City - 90 miles of Light Rail, streetcar and Commuter Rail (vote soon to accelerate)
San Diego - Light Rail spur to North, another to West
San Francisco - New TransBay tunnel, trolley line, BART extension, eBART, Marin-Sonoma commuter rail, CalTrain extension to downtown TransBay Terminal
San Jose - BART extension, several Light Rail extensions
Seattle – Proposed north extension
Spokane – Light Rail line planned
Tampa – 1992 and later plans
Toledo OH – Streetcar plans
Tuscon AZ – Streetcar plans
Washington DC – Tyson’s Corner-Dulles extension, Purple Line, 40 miles of streetcar lines in DC, Columbia Pike Light Rail Winston-Salem NC – Streetcar plans

Are you sure that a minority want the Transit Oriented Design? I know that at least in sweden is it hardest to find an a apartment in the three largest cities and it is in these cities the best public transport is avaible.

I've assembled a review of market preference surveys and forecasts at The Market for Mixed Use & Walkability. In general, about one-third of the American public has a preference for transit- and pedestrian-oriented neighborhoods with attached and small-lot housing. However, the preference rates for specific features vary considerably, from 15% all the way up to 75%, depending on the population sampled and the features in question.

What's more, the forecasts for market preferences over the next 20-35 years project big changes in the demographic makeup of the American population, and an associated increase in demand for transit/pedestrian oriented communities. Some researchers are forecasting there will be no demand whatsoever for new, large-lot, exurban McMansions by the year 2025.

I am afraid that at this late date, we are kind of stuck with what housing we have. Once peak oil ( and natural gas) hits, there will be much less building. If nothing else, (people and businesses) will not be able to get 20 or 30 year mortgages. As a result, if we want more density, it will have to be families moving together into a subset of the existing housing stock. If this is planned correctly, it can greatly reduce the fuel needed for natural gas heating. It might also make public transportation more feasible.

With 2/3rds the building materials used in 2006 (and related energy), I believe that we could build much more energy efficent housing (comfortable, desireable) for twice as many people.

The fellow I am helping repair & improve his shotgun house (12' x 36' + 7' x 8' bathroom added on) lives comfortably as do I in my small apartment (1890s house cut up into 6 apartments). So existing housing & commerical.industrial structures can be adapted to denser living; although even this takes copper, labor, insulation, walls, etc. Just less energy & materials.

The annual energy savings by boarding up most McMansions could build housing for a large # of people. So I do not see the US as being completely trapped with our current Urban Form.

The US made a major transition in Urban Form from 1950 to 1970+. We can do it again.

Best Hopes,

Alan

Alan,

I love your posts. I like your thinking. But at heart, you are a cornucopian who is trying to maintain the status quo. The core of your beliefs, I believe, is that the changes you suggest will somehow allow a consumptive, consumer society to continue. If that isn't the case, why do people need the kinds of transport you advocate? And, I might include goods transportation.

We could pack a zillion people into a compact cube where they never had to go anywhere. Ever. And, it would sure be energy efficient. But this isn't what I believe you believe.

I would argue that, to use the trite expression, it might be better to give the "man" 40 acres and a mule than the direction you essentially advocate.

Todd

If your root goal in using this site is to plot the downfall of society, do it somewhere else. A cabin on 400 acres, perhaps.

Most of us prefer finding a way to preserve human life and our current way of life - anything that can mitigate peak oil and global warming is a blessing, not a stumbling block on the way to apocalypse/communism/hippydom.

BTW Alan: you might have missed my reply in our last discussion, as it was posted a few days after the thread was.

it might be better to give the "man" 40 acres and a mule than the direction you essentially advocate

We do not have enough mules ! And given the population shifts from rural to urban and then to suburban; I support a shift back to urban from suburban more than a shift all the way back to rural.

Quite frankly, a human scale urban life can be more rewarding and socially benefical than an isolated rural or suburban existance for most people.

I think that the social isolation of suburbia results in much of the shopping mall "entertainment"/consumptive behavior. I think that a walking neighborhood with Urban rail can result in a significantly higher quality of life with far fewer resources being consumed. That may make me cornucopian, but that is *N*O*T* the "status quo" (except for me personally and a few other New Orleanians :-)

OTOH, After the ASPO conference, I toured (with a group) the soon to be opened Greenbush commuter rail project south of Boston. It linked a series of New England villages with an average population (guess) of 20,000; Braintree, Weymouth, Hingham, Cohasset, Scituate and Greenbush. Another alternative, suburban living on a human scale that could become low energy. Cluster more around the new train station; walking and biking locally. Not for me, but a viable low energy alternative post-Peak Oil for others.

And the "40 acres & a mule" with a trip to town every other Friday (weather permitting) will satisfy others.

We have 300 million Americans. One size does not fit all. But my solution could fit a majority (perhaps a slim majority) of Americans.

Best Hopes,

Alan

A 12' x 36' home with a 7' x 8' bathroom added on is not what I would consider a "consumptive" lifestyle. Yes, in-door plumbing (which I like and support :-) aand more space than the average Chinese (or Japanese) but not dramatically more.

I would rather consume good music, great tasting food, beautiful architechure and enjoy my neighbors than mall shopping, etc. None of the above requires large amounts of energy or other material resources.

Good music takes no more energy (perhaps less) than Britney Spears, great tasting food (using mainly local ingredients) may use less resources than a Happy Meal from McDonalds, Beautiful architecture takes little more than strip malls & McMansions and spending time with your neighbors uses far less energy than commuting alone everyday in a SUV.

Yes, I want to "consume", but not the stereotypical American pattern of consumption.

Best Hopes,

Alan

Metric: 3.7 m x 14.75 m home with 2.1 m x 2.2 m bathroom

That whole quote taken from the conference was very confusing to me:
"In the United States, for example, 80% of the population lives in cities. Their buildings, transportation and urban infrastructure account for 80% of U.S. energy consumption, and 70% of that amount is determined by how and where Americans design their neighborhoods. Low-density development in the U.S. consumes 85% more energy, 70 times more water, 50 times more lumber and 40 times more land than higher-density development of the same square footage.

Note the first part "In the United States, for example, 80% of the population lives in cities. Their buildings, transportation and urban infrastructure account for 80% of U.S. energy consumption..." Now, as the quote goes on to say " Low-density development in the U.S. consumes 85% more energy", would this not mean that as a percent of their population, city dwellers would consume far less than the one to one match of their poplulation by percent that is the 80% of America living in the city would not consume the full 80% percent of America's energy? In fact, if less dense dwelling folks consumed 85% more, then most at least half of all energy would be consumed by the percent living in less densely poplulated areas (!?) (Unless of course much of the "less dense" areas are being incorporated into the "city", thus confusing an already confused count)

The whole advantage of massively increased population density as somehow being of advantage in reducing fossil fuel consumption needs a great deal more study. There are the Kunstler types who hated the suburban development pattern to the core of their being long before the "peak" issue was even thought of, and much of what passes for an "energy" discussion is actually an aesthetic preference debate. There are those who hate the city and those who hate the suburbs and rural living. In many cases their conjecture begins from the point of their hatred for these living arrangements and NOT from any factually demonstrated proof of energy consumption per se, given the wide variety of living/consumptive arrangements in both town and country.

Roger Conner Jr.
Remember, we are only one cubic mile from freedom.

Ultimately the best reason to live in a town or urban neighborhood is because it has a better quality of life, in the view of the people who choose to live there. Freedom of choice is what there should be more of.

Academic studies have shown that well designed neighborhoods with a minimum density (around 6-8 dwellings per acre) have substantially less VMT, gasoline use, and emissions. But that's just lagniappe for most people, assuming they have even heard about it.

I too would like to see the research support for the quote about buildings, transportation and urban infrastructure. The numbers imply much greater benefits for high-density development than I have seen in the literature.

I used to live in a city that had about 10 dwellings/acre. It covered 45 sq mi. Just about anything I wanted to buy was within 10 miles. I worked for the local transit authority and knew how to get pretty close to wherever I wanted to go without using a car. I rarely used the bus unless I was going where I had to pay to park. Therein lies a conservation incentive rarely talked about which is what I would call a parking space tax. People drive because there is no charge for parking at Walmart and the malls. The cost of parking along with available public transit is why car use is much lower in NYC. Add a $5 parking charge to every purchase at Walmart and people will take fewer trips but purchase more per trip. Use the money to eliminate bus fares and improve the service and watch gasoline use go down.
I now live at the edge of a small Iowa town 30 miles from the nearest Walmart. It currently costs me about $5 worth of gas to make the round trip a few times per month. The population density around here is 1/100th what it is in the city I used to live in. Public transit is a twice a day stop by a bus that goes between Des Moines and Kansas City. The 20% who do not live in urban areas must continue to use cars. We may find ways to use them less but we must still use them.

I agree that there needs to be more research on energy savings via Urban Form. When I have time I will contact the author.

However, I simply KNOW, by living, that I use far less than, say my brothers (Phoenix & Austin). I am unsure about my sister (Manhatten).

Pre-Katrina, New York City and New Orleans were statistically tied for the fewest miles driven per capita by residents (excluding suburbanites driving in). New Orleans was on a far more human scale and should serve as a model for the rest of the nation. I live in one of the best "Old Urbanism" neighborhoods in New Orleans (Lower Garden District). In many ways, the "creme de la creme" of fine, low energy living :-))

Best Hopes,

Alan

Climate is weather over thousands of years and just like weather; climate can change suddenly. I hope TOD readers will take the time to follow Heading Out’s future discussion on low-probability, catastrophic climate changes, as this topic has been poorly addressed in the general media. These types of changes occur rarely under natural conditions because natural drivers of change are infrequent. Of course, at this moment humans are a massive driver of climate change and the probabilities of dramatic and sudden change have to be much higher.

Thanks again for the post! the quote below intrigued me:

"From that point of view, the “sixth wave” of technical progress should be a disruptive wave, rather than one of logical progression. The energy business, because it has been heavily regulated for so long, is one of the slowest to adapt and needs that sort of action. He noted that when Prime Minister Blair introduced the initiative to work on global warming issues at the Gleneagles G-8 summit two years ago, he initially received a positive response for the governments attending. However, when the price of some $10-30 billion was presented those nations choked. He noted that this was not because of the reality of the message, but because of the price."

The "sixth wave" of tech progress? I did not know there were six. Any elaboration?

The energy business is slow to adapt because of heavy regulation? I thought the opposite would be true. Is this a real observation or simply an excuse thrown out to cover the energy industry's own inertia and unwillingness to confront the huge environmental issues we face -- scarcening resources and global warming?

No one is willing to pay the price now for sustainable infrastructure and planning. That I find easy to believe. We are psychotically divorced from reality, are we not?

No wonder the summit seemed to end with a fizzle and a pop. My own impression is that plenty of "green" business people are interested in developing sustainable energy projects, but that government and "the market" don't want to pay for them. Just burn more coal, etc.

"No change." Or was there more hope than that?

I think that we should make the wave disruptive by banning all new coal project, including all those on the drawing board, and by the way, all those planned for Texas.

tstreet,
This is exactly the kind of thinking that has caused delays up until now. "Ban coal" or "lets use Hydrogen" or "lets use ethanol" are all bandwagons that people jump on, that prevent them from seeing other solutions. The problem is GHGs, so ban those. If the Texas coal industry can find a way to sequester, good for them.

Banning coal isn't going to happen. They're trying it in California, but it won't work everywhere. We must be somewhat pragmatic. The place to start is on the consumption side. We should ban all televisions that draw more than 200 watts, all refrigerators that draw more than 500 kWh/yr avg. Light bulbs should not be sold over x watts, new cars should be required to get 30 mpg minimum, etc., etc. While we're at it we should ban private jets, yachts, sporting events, especially motor sports and houses over 3000 sq. ft. Think I could get elected on that platform?

Why not start by eliminating NASCAR!!

All we have to eliminate NASCAR is to turn our 300W tvs off while it's on. The advertisers will do the rest for us.

:-)

I think that the organizers are anticipating putting up some of the presentations on the web. This could only be a very short review of all that was said, and could not include the slides and a lot of the underlying information that was given.

You could go back and look at the site in a week or two and maybe they will have it posted (that's where I got the info on last years conference).

HO

800 years ago the ice pack over Labrador and Hudson Bay collapsed almost instantaneously creating a water level rise that showed, in coastal changes, of some 7 – 8 m.

Huh? If this means anything important, how did I miss it in history class? Surely the sea level didn't abruptly rise that much around the year 1200? If it means the North Sea coastline shifted 7-8m laterally, well, that slope is so extremely shallow that, well, so what?

Yeah, I noticed that too so will add this reply, hoping it draws some attention and maybe an answer.

A 1999 study by INSTAAR's Don Barber and colleagues showed the collapse of two gigantic glacial lakes near Hudson Bay about 8,000 years ago poured enough fresh water into the Northern Atlantic to shut down the ocean circulation for several centuries, cooling Europe and Greenland by some 6 degrees F.

The last 8,000 years have been remarkably stable in terms of climate, considering the large temperature fluctuations, said Lehman. "By altering the environment through greenhouse gas emissions, we will likely find out how fragile the stability of Earth's climate really is. We may well find out we are dealing with a hair trigger." [link]

I googled "little ice age" and came up with quite a few hits noting that Europe was quite warm from about 800 CE to about 1200 CE.

From about 1200 to about 1900 there was a "little ice age that made things pretty tough.

I googled "ice pack collapse over hudson bay" and got some cool hits as well.

IIRC, Al Gore has a graphic showing a huge ice melt freeing the fresh water ocean (that preceded the Great Lakes of NA)which scooped out the river valley all the way to the Atlantic. I think this was during the last great ice age, but I'm just going from memory. Could be wrong -- could have been 8,000 years ago.

No more time to search now. Lots of cool info and plenty of hot climate sites to choose from, though.

800 years ago the ice pack over Labrador and Hudson Bay collapsed almost instantaneously

I think that should be 8000 years ago. Cenozoic climatology was along time ago, but that's what I recall...vaguely.

Ask and it shall be given. Seek and ye shall find.
Thank you all. Mystery resolved.

I was hoping that someone that had heard Dr Hansen would have been able to tell us more, since I was reporting a second hand accounting of the presentation through the Dean. I couldn't find much of a reference to guide you to either, but then I didn't spend a huge amount of time looking, and I or the Dean, may have garbled some of the facts - but thanks.

HO

Was Michal Moore referring to boomers as a synonym for cornucopians or an age group? Kind of pointless if he is referring to baby boomers in power. The guy really running things, Cheney, is much older. The best possible replacement, Al Gore, is a boomer.

Hi, Anyone care to make my nuclear darkness a little lighter?

There is concern here in Canada that there is a problem with Nuclear in that in the mining and 'smelting' there is a goodly release of CO2.

My question is would there be any merit at all in allying wind power as an energy source for these processes?

One associated advantage to using wind here, in my mind, is that the wind farm would be located in a relatively secluded area but I do not know if the energy could be useful in type or of a sufficient magnitude to be of use.

Further on another point I have asked the following of both the http://www.davidsuzuki.org/ and http://www.greenparty.ca/ the following without serious response.

I have a bit of a problem with the current attitude towards nuclear power.

1998 figures

In the US 61 % of energy production is by use of coal and oil

7.6% energy production is nuclear

.04% energy production is wind power

These are old figures but all I can find at short notice.

Further I found this article which is current:

Wind Power 2005 in Review, Outlook for 2006 and Beyond
After Record Year for North American Wind Power; Capacity Expected to Quadruple by 2010

http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=41304

Extrapolating from the above figures an 8 fold increase in Nuclear would roughly equal the 61% COAL AND OIL in use.

Doing the same with wind would entail an increase in WIND POWER by a 1525 fold increase.

This would seem to put wind power into very much a secondary position in the production of near term energy?

I think your numbers are a little off. Great strides were made in wind and solar in 2006. This chart is for 2005. Courtesy of the EIA.

Here is a breakdown of renewable electricity generation in the U.S.A.

Hi Petropest,

Thanks for your quick response, not only my numbers are a little off, but we won't go into that will we? It looks from the pie you sent and the way it is sliced that clearly wind would be no contender in the short term to nuclear. This, if true, would mean that the sooner the green end of the spectrum is brought to the table for this tidbit the better.

I still could use an answer to my first question if possible.

Hello Black B. Gorilla,

There is a good deal of CO2 released in the mining and processing of uranium for nuclear power plants, this is true, also nuclear waste is a problem. CO2 is also released during construction of the power plants. Fast breeder reactors could address the fuel concerns somewhat, but they have fallen from grace due to safety and proliferation issues. I feel that an all out effort and a redoubling of wind and solar is the way to go. It is frustrating that the PTB aren't taking it more seriously.

There is a good deal of CO2 released in the mining and processing of uranium for nuclear power plants

This is true but misleading. Most of the CO2 emissions are from the old gasseous diffusion enrichment plants that are relics from the 50's that happen to be powered by coal electricity. Replace these with nuclear powered centrifuge enrichment and your emissions profile is lower than hydroelectric power.

Fast breeder reactors could address the fuel concerns somewhat, but they have fallen from grace due to safety and proliferation issues.

Not so much as cost.

Fast neutron breeder reactors will have to compete more than on fuel efficiency given how abundant uranium is.

Actually, wind is an extremely strong competitor to nuclear.

No new nuclear plants will start in less than 8 years from now, while wind can grow much more quickly.

Planned wind installations for 2007 are more than 13GW, enough to supply 2/3 of electrical demand growth, according to the Nuclear Energy Institute(!) - http://www.nei.org/documents/Energy%20Markets%20Report.pdf

Wind growth depends only on expanding manufacturing capacity, which is pretty straightforward. We could easily build 25GW of wind per year, enough for all new demand and some growth besides. If we wanted to start reducing coal, we could do that too.

Over 3000 1 MW turbines are needed to compete with one reactor, and thats before energy storage is accounted for.

13GW is all fine and well but thats only about 4 reactors. This isn't to say that wind power doesn't have a niche that it can fill, but suggesting that wind can compete with nuclear only serves to continue use of coal.

I see wind as a large scale conservation effort rather than a replacement. Of course if things get bad future generations might be glad to have intermittent electrical power as opposed to none at all. Every unit of gas or coal saved by wind or solar is one that will be left to future generations, or possibly never burned at all. A large energy storage system is the only way wind or solar can compete on a 24/7 reliability basis.

"A large energy storage system is the only way wind or solar can compete on a 24/7 reliability basis."

Better to have a medium size energy storage system (perfectly doable with pumped storage) and cheap peaker-type standby generation using biomass for perhaps 75% of capacity, and 10-15% of kwhr generation.

Standby generation using biomass is perfectly doable, because electrical generation is much more efficient than liquid fuels.

I've been reading about that, very interesting, biomass gasification, very easily transported after gasification. I worry about the energy expended bringing the biomass in though... How about geothermal storage, where excess thermal solar and wind is pumped into the old oil reservoirs and brought up with latent heat from the earth? This could prolong a geothermal generation station indefinitely.

With equilavent efforts, the US could install 13 GW of wind in a dozen years but it will take two decades to build the energy equivalent of 4 new nukes every year, IMHO.

In other words, wind can deliver more power, quicker than nuke. Nuke is a secondary and slower means of replacing coal with non-GHG power.

And wind + pumped storage should be cheaper than nuke + pumped storage (smaller).

Best Hopes for Both,

Alan

With equilavent efforts, the US could install 13 GW of wind in a dozen years but it will take two decades to build the energy equivalent of 4 new nukes every year, IMHO.

Right, which is why France went from nearly nothing to 70% of their electric capacity as nuclear in just over a decade. The primary hurdles for nuclear are regulatory.

And wind + pumped storage should be cheaper than nuke + pumped storage (smaller).

This is so absurd it doesnt even pass the laugh test. Pumped storage facilities are very capital intensive and dependant on geography.

Winds biggest advantages over nuclear is it scales smaller, lack of NRC hurdles, and a lack of green opposition; Not to mention much higher subsidies per watt. But its just absurd to think that wind can seriously compete with nuclear going forward. It doesnt! It bears repeating, nuclear doesnt compete with wind. It competes with coal.

Why does it always need to be a few pennies here or there that makes the decisions? Nukes are highly subsidized too. Wind and solar in combination with large scale thermal storage can compete with nukes in many instances. Wind and solar just don't have the lobbies that coal, nat gas, and nukes have.

In uneven order:

The US subsidy for new nukes is exactly the same/MWh as for wind (from memory).

It took much more than a decade for France to go to 70% nuke. From the decision (about 1970, reinforced/speeded up in 1973) to start of construction to commerical operation took closer to two decades. Golfech 2 went commerical in 1994 and Civaux 2 in 1998.

And the French built fewer nukes than the US in that period, their regulations were less safety conscience (since improved) and they imported whatever bottlenecks existed until their own domestic sources were on-line.

And they did not start from "almost nothing". They had (AFAIK) 11 gas cooled reactors to national design when they decided to license Westinghouse technology. They have "only" 58 nukes operating today.

The French did not face the same infrastructure hurdles (they started from a higher base nationally & internationally) than the US now faces in restarting a moribund industry. IMHO, it will take about 20 years for the US to complete (not start construction) 4 new nukes/year economically.

Wind has a very short time lag from financial decision to build to commerical operation. 18 months to add-on & 30 months for new wind farm have been reported several times. This is another wind advantage.

Pumped storage is quite cheap per MW and MWh, usually cheaper than gas turbines. And viable sites are scattered accross the nation.

Wind gets 18% or 20% cheaper as world-wide installed base doubles.

OTOH a "rush to nuke" will cause the same type cost escalations that we see today in Canadian tar sands production. Too many $ chasing too few critical/bottleneck resources. A reasonable build-up at reasonable costs to 4 new nukes/year will take, as I stated before, about 20 years.

The French require late night sales to the Switzerland (who sell peak hydropower back to France & others), Germany, UK (2 GW), Italy, Spain, Benelux (pumped storage in Luxembourg), Austria as well as domestic hydro in order to get their high % nuke. A high % nuke in the US will also require significant pumped storage (I saw several nukes from atop Raccoon Mt Pumped Storage upper reservior) but a bit less than wind.

Best Hopes for both,

Alan

BTW, my mix is about 53% wind and rest other renewables. A build out of Canadian Hydro and small US hydro + more geothermal, biomass, solar.

The implications of 4 new nukes/year in the US.

1) Perhaps 20 to 25 new nukes/year world wide, competing for basically the same resources. Whatever motivates us to go all out for nuke will motivate everyone else as well.

2) Assuming a favorable 5 years and a few months to completion and an on-going trend upwards; we might have:

4 nukes completed in 2027, and 4 more scheduled for 2028, 5 scheduled in 2029, 4 in 2030 and 6 in 2031. 22 nuclear plants at various stages of completion at one time and more "on the drawing board" in the US alone (100 worldwide ?). Site specialists in finding & getting approval for new nuke sites (and the transmission lines required to serve them) will be IN DEMAND !

Each plant site will require senior, experienced nuke project managers & engineers to build them safely & economically. These people do not simply appear upon demand. Many of the cost overruns experienced in the US during our last nuke boom were due to the lack of exactly these type people (see Zimmer as one case).

(All new nukes being discussed today in US are at already approved sites).

Best Hopes,

Alan Drake

It took much more than a decade for France to go to 70% nuke. From the decision (about 1970, reinforced/speeded up in 1973) to start of construction to commerical operation took closer to two decades. Golfech 2 went commerical in 1994 and Civaux 2 in 1998.

By 1984, over 65% of french electricity was nuclear.

OTOH a "rush to nuke" will cause the same type cost escalations that we see today in Canadian tar sands production. Too many $ chasing too few critical/bottleneck resources. A reasonable build-up at reasonable costs to 4 new nukes/year will take, as I stated before, about 20 years.

Even with cost overruns nuclear is cheaper per kw/hr than wind.

A UK Royal Academy of Engineering report in 2004 did analysis on intermittent power sources such as wind and found wind to be over twice as expensive as nuclear.

Your optimism for renewables is another excuse that is paraded by various political factions for avoiding nuclear, and ultimately serves to extend the lifetime of coal.

Any 2004 report has obsolete data on wind, and no doubt this one is based on the UK (or even English) winds & NOT US winds. Actual commerical data for contracts today are price competitive with natural gas fuel alone; with the same subsidy offered to any new nuke. Hence the "Wind Rush". So I reject your old study.

I have supported more nuclear (and have 23% of total electrical energy from nuke in my hypothectical non-GHG grid) but as secondary and slower to market than more wind. I have explained in some detail why the US cannot suddenly go to even 40% nuke in a decade (or ever w/o more pumped storage to balance nuke). So I also reject your assertion as well.

Wind today is primarily displacing natural gas and will start to displace more coal (% wise) as the numbers mount.

Best Hopes for Both (as I have noted several times),

Alan

PS: How have you concluded that if someone is pro-wind (what is not to like ?) that they are ipso facto anti-nuke ?

PS: How have you concluded that if someone is pro-wind (what is not to like ?) that they are ipso facto anti-nuke ?

I don't. I'm saying a pro-wind position is often used as an excuse for why nukes are unecissary. I like wind, and I look forward to ever better economics from very large wind turbines.

But I feel nuclear power is absolutely necissary for replacing coal in the long term.

But I feel nuclear power is absolutely necissary for replacing coal in the long term

Not less than 23% or more than 50-55% of total electrical energy per my calcs for a North American grid.

For better or worse, it is going to take 20+ years to build even 23% nuke. We can build 53% in wind as quickly since it has a good running start.

You are making some wrong assumptions. One is that wind today has zero capacity factor. The lowest capacity factor (MW that can be counted on as one can count on a coal, NG or nuke plant) is the electrical island of ERCOT Texas. 10% of nameplate from memory there. (about 30% of average output).

Coal plant generation can be varied slightly without issues. But it is really not as good a partner with wind as NG or, the best, hydro.

Steam generation and massive turbines do not react well to rapid changes in heat input (heat stress). When load following, coal plants have very predictable and hours long changes in generation.

Connect wind turbines from northern Manitoba to Texas (or Mexico) with HV DC lines and wind is blowing well in several places. The capacity factor can only increase signficantly for the whole vs. the parts in isolation. (And Manitoba can have 10 GW of hydro with high capacity factor; 20+ GW with a lower capacity factor by just adding more turbines).

Hemisphere wide, wind for a given calendar week is basically constant (solar flux varies on a periodic & predictable basis). A continent (NA) wide grid will have less constant wind than the Northern Hemisphere, but the variance should still be low.

Best Hopes,

Alan

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on cost, scalability of wind versus nuclear. I expect the future of Germany and Denmark will be illustrative.

Germany simply does not have the wind (or solar) resource but they are exploiting as much as they can. Most of the Danish wind resource is in Jutland (western Denmark). Neither is a good model.

I would chose New Zealand as a model (excellent wind resource, North & South Islands connected by HV DC line).

Best Hopes,

Alan

By 1984, over 65% of french electricity was nuclear

Your source, with link, for this claim ?

I spent over an hour going through commercial dates for French nukes.

Civaux 1 1450 MW 1997
Civaux 2 1450 MW 1998
Chooz 1 1450 MW 1996
Chooz 2 1450 MW 1996
Golfech 1 1310 MW 1991
Golfech 2 1310 MW 1994
Cattenom 1 1300 MW 1987
Cattenom 2 1300 MW 1988
Cattenom 3 1300 MW 1991
Cattenom 4 1300 MW 1992
Penly 1 1330 MW 1990
Penly 2 1330 MW 1992
Nogent 1 1310 MW 1988
Nogent 2 1310 MW 1989
Belleville 1 1310 MW 1988
Belleville 2 1310 MW 1989
Chinon B3 870 MW 1987
Chinon B4 870 MW 1988
Flamanville 1 1330 MW 1986
Flamanville 2 1330 MW 1987
Saint-Alban 1 1335 MW 1986
Saint-Alban 2 1335 MW 1987
Paluel 1 1330 MW 1985
Paluel 2 1330 MW 1985
Paluel 3 1330 MW 1986
Paluel 4 1330 MW 1986
Gravelines C5 910 MW 1985
Gravelines C6 910 MW 1985
Cruas 4 880 MW 1985

After 1984, 35.28 GW of nukes were commissioned. Exactly half by unit count and 57.4% by MW of all nukes now in service.#

So their building program was not even half done by 1984. A few of the smaller, older gas cooled reactors were retired after 1984, but a small %. Only 29 (or less) of the Westinghouse type reactors were open in 1984. (AFAIK none have yet been retired).

Even with growth in demand, I question how they had "over 65%" of their electrical power from nuke in 1984, when they had less than half of today's capacity on-line then.

Alan

# The "totals for France" may include shutdown nukes. I am unsure. If so, an even higher % of nukes opened post 1984.

"Over 3000 1 MW turbines are needed to compete with one reactor, and thats before energy storage is accounted for."

I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying "gosh, 3,000 turbines is an awful lot of turbines!"? Are you saying that it's too many turbines? It should go without saying that turbines are individually a lot smaller than nuclear plants.

The important questions are E-ROI and cost, with cost including all externalities. Both wind and nuclear do just fine on E-ROI, and both are perfectly affordable, though nuclear's external costs (waste handling, catastrophic risk, and weapons proliferation) are significant, and at this point not well quantified.

"13GW is all fine and well but thats only about 4 reactors."

Ummm...I'm not sure what your point is. 13GW of new wind generation per year is a lot. 4 new nuclear reactors per year would be a lot. Either would provide about 2/3 of new electrical demand. What are you saying?

" suggesting that wind can compete with nuclear only serves to continue use of coal."

Why? Because you believe that wind can't produce enough power? Would you disagree that 13GW of new wind per year could be expanded to 25GW per year in 3- 5 years (and certainly in less time than the 9 year minimum for new US nuclear), and that would provide more than enough for new electrical demand??

Why? Because you believe that wind can't produce enough power? Would you disagree that 13GW of new wind per year could be expanded to 25GW per year in 3- 5 years (and certainly in less time than the 9 year minimum for new US nuclear), and that would provide more than enough for new electrical demand??

Yes. You will need pumped hydro or more peaking plants to deal with intermittency, and only nuclear can compete with coal on cost.

Ok, so you agree that we could ramp up wind in much less time than nuclear, but you feel that we won't because coal and nuclear are cheaper?

"You will need pumped hydro or more peaking plants to deal with intermittency"

I believe that this doesn't apply until wind hits 10-20% of generation capacity. Would you agree?

"only nuclear can compete with coal on cost"

California has just banned coal-generated electricity in the long-term, and US utilities are generally expecting some kind of CO2 regulation, perhaps in the form of cap-and-trade. Are you assuming that the US will never deal with CO2, and other external costs of coal?

Ok, so you agree that we could ramp up wind in much less time than nuclear, but you feel that we won't because coal and nuclear are cheaper?

On average, yes. Wind will be very competitive for many markets, but the one thing it is very ill suited for is baseload.

I believe that this doesn't apply until wind hits 10-20% of generation capacity. Would you agree?

It depends on a regions dispatchable power capacity. Again, I'm not saying that wind wont be valuable in many markets. I'm saying it isn't appropriate for replacing coal.

"only nuclear can compete with coal on cost"

California has just banned coal-generated electricity in the long-term, and US utilities are generally expecting some kind of CO2 regulation, perhaps in the form of cap-and-trade. Are you assuming that the US will never deal with CO2, and other external costs of coal?

Of course not. What I'm saying is that without carbon taxes nuclear is competitive with coal. With CO2 taxes no scalable power competes with nuclear for baseload power on cost. Hydro would if there were more rivers to dam.

I'm not saying that these options aren't viable, but that nuclear is the most important piece of the puzzle.

Ok, so what you're saying is that you feel that nuclear is the cheapest option.

Valuethinker said above:
"Roughly speaking, 1 MW of wind capacity costs $1.3-1.7m (source FPL). 1MW of nuclear capacity costs $2.5-$5.0m (there is a big range out there depending on your assumptions). Adjusting for load factor, then, the costs are quite comparable (although the waste disposal liability for nuclear is not factored in)."

If we assume the midpoint of these capital cost ranges, lifetime of 30 years, 6.5% interest for wind and 10.5% for nuclear, 30% and 90% capacity factors, for capital costs alone we get 4.4 cents per kwh for wind, and 5.3 for nuclear. If we assume 6.5% interest for both (a very optimistic assumption for nuclear, I believe ) nuclear falls to 3.6 cents.

Given operating costs of at least 1 cent per kwh for nuclear and perhaps .1 cent for wind, it looks to me like wind is slightly cheaper, or given the uncertainties involved, at least roughly the same.

What do you think? I'd be very curious how you would estimate the cost inputs for these calculations.

Ok, so what you're saying is that you feel that nuclear is the cheapest option.

No. I'm saying nuclear is the cheapest nonfossil/hydropower baseload option. Its possible for wind to be cheaper than nuclear for intermittent power provided you have enough dispatchable supply in the grid, though I have my doubts. For every watt of wind capacity, you need more than two of dispatch based on capacity alone. That means coal, natural gas, hydro, or pumped hydro storage. While many see wind partnering well with pumped hydro, it partners even better with coal...

Nuclear still needs dispatchability, but only for peak load. Not using nuclear for the majority of baseload is sort of ignoring the figures or assuming rather unrealistic cost expectations for wind, nuclear, and dispatchable power.

"Roughly speaking, 1 MW of wind capacity costs $1.3-1.7m (source FPL). 1MW of nuclear capacity costs $2.5-$5.0m (there is a big range out there depending on your assumptions). Adjusting for load factor, then, the costs are quite comparable (although the waste disposal liability for nuclear is not factored in)."

That sounds like a vast overestimate of nuclear powers price. Even the worst of of the CANDU fleet didnt cost more than $3m per MW after enduring large cost overruns. I'm not prepared to dispute your numbers for wind but I'd be rather suspicious given that leading quote.

Waste disposal costs are incredibly small for nuclear anyways. The US nuclear fleet pays a tax that oestensably goes to pay for a geologic repository that wont ever be built and they absorb the cost of waste storage like it wasnt anything.

"Its possible for wind to be cheaper than nuclear for intermittent power provided you have enough dispatchable supply in the grid"

Ok, so you would agree that wind might be cheaper than, or at least in the same rough range of costs as nuclear, at least up to the point where it's variance starts requiring additional measures for load/demand matching?

"For every watt of wind capacity, you need more than two of dispatch based on capacity alone."

What do you base that on? As I understand it, that’s not how utilities think about these things. I see that kind of description on flaky anti-wind sites...! Utilities think more in terms of contributions to capacity factor. So, for instance, in Minnesota they assume that wind name-plate capacity of 1000MW will have a capacity factor of 30%, or 300MW average output, and provide a peak capacity contribution of 90% of average output, or 27%. They expect that as wind market penetration rises, that capacity contribution may drop, as wind’s variance becomes more important relative to the variance inherent in demand.

Now, in a situation where the peak capacity contribution was 0, you might think of the wind capacity as needing 100% backup (that is, 1,000MW of backup generation for 1,000 MW of wind capacity), but how would you get a need for 200% backup??

Now, it’s important to realize that the variance in wind output can be handled in a number of ways other than just adding backup generation. There’s geographical dispersion (improved long distance transmission), and demand management, which is going to get easier with smart meters and vehicle charging (PHEV/EV). Finally, backup generation doesn’t have to cost much, if you don’t use it that much. Peaker plants can be very cheap.

I think you’re overestimating the cost and difficulty of handling wind variance.

Planned nuclear plants.

This would seem to put wind power into very much a secondary position in the production of near term energy?

It is an unfortunate reality which few are willing to face.

On one side, Status Quo Business As Usual prefers cheap untaxed coal.

The other side, demands wind and solar and no nukes ever, regardless of the enormous quantitative inadequacy of wind and solar for probably a century.

In reality, opposing large scale nuclear expansion means more coal and lots more CO2. Period. Greenwashing this by squealing that you favor wind and solar (who doesn't?) is being politically correct without actually willing to solve the problem instead of purifying your politics.

I think we ought to follow the laws of physics and what they suggest.

With peak oil there will need to be a replacement. This involves three potential avenues: (1) biofuels, which I think will also be quantitatively inadequate (and corn ethanol is basically coal-to-liquids), (2) coal to fuel conversion, (3) electrification with battery-stored energy.

In our current course, all THREE of these remediation strategies mean even more coal. The growth in coal already from conventional electricity demand (China most pertinently) is already staggeringly worrisome---once peak oil bites then increasing this further is very frightening.

All of (2) and some of (1) will remain coal-bound.

Only (3) need not be so, and realistically this means lots more nukes.

The laws of physics are such that nuclear fuel has much higher energy density than solar and wind, and that's why it's more practical.

In comparing potential between nuclear & wind, one should NOT look at the installed base but the RECENTLY installed base. Nuke = Zero, Wind = 10% to 15% increase each year in new WTs.

The nuclear construction industry in the US is moribund and must start almost from scratch. The last few nukes to be completed were almost 2 decades ago, and we are almost a decade away from completing another. It will take about two decades (best economic case) to once again be finishing 4 nukes/year. And five years from financial decision to on-line new nuke is optimistic.

OTOH, wind has short lead times (as little as 18 months to expand existing wind farm), a vibrant & booming industry that is maturing technologically.

Wind is accelerating today while nuke is dead and must rebuild from scratch.

If both were pursued with equal effort today, new nuke generation on-line could not catch up with new wind on-line for at least 25 years.

Best Hopes,

Alan

Fortunately, I do not see nuclear plants or wind in any major way conflicting in logistics and I think both ought to be pursued rapidly.

However, I don't see what it means to be "rebuilt from scratch".

Modern higher performance nuclear plants are commercial products with 'off-the-shelf' designs.

I agree that wind is maturing technologically quite fast, yet
let's remember the goal is to replace coal in raw quantity. Starting from 0.04% of generation versus 50% for coal, it takes a whole lot of high growth.

If both were pursued with equal effort today, new nuke generation on-line could not catch up with new wind on-line for at least 25 years.

Do you mean in real power-factor adjusted generating capacity? If that's so, then it's going to be really depressing as probably then both will make little dent on coal.

http://www.awea.org/projects/

With the fabulous growth in wind we are about at 11,000 MW installed, which adjusted for a likely power factor is 3000 continuous, or probably a bit more than one nuclear plant.

Can we be installing 40,000 MW (nameplate, not factor adjusted) of new wind per year some time in the future (i.e. 4 times current installed base, every new year)? Isn't the largest windfarm (currently offshore in Europe, clearly expensive) all of 160MW or so?

That seems like a much bigger logistical problem than 4 nukes per year which is easily doable. I think the most likely circumstance eventually will be that we might get up to 4 nukes per year, but nowhere near 40GW of nameplate wind. I hope I'm wrong and both are higher.

I reiterate I believe in "and" here not "or".

However, I don't see what it means to be "rebuilt from scratch"

The nuke rated labor force and numerous nuke rated supplies (Loctite to keep nuts from vibrating off has to be nuke rated as one very minor example) only have a maintenance base to work from. Many suppliers have since closed their nuke capability if there is not a steady demand for maintenance (as there is for Loctite).

The ability to make nuclear grade containment vessels is quite limited. The number of engineers with nuke experience is also quite limited, and they are all older. The regulators are also limited and only know about maintaining older nukes, not building new ones. What is the supply of alumina based concrete to nuke specs ? There are thousands of potential bottle necks. You CANNOT use "off-the-shelf" materials or people that work just fine in a coal fired plant or a refinery. UK had to derate ALL of their nukes due to using common nuts & bolts. In the US those nukes would have been shut down & dismantled.

11 GW of wind, with .32 capacity factor is 3.52 GW avg. This is equal to four 1,000 MW nukes with a .88 capacity factor (.9 or .91 is closer to current averages).

IMO, we can build and install 12 GW of wind each year sooner than we can ramp up to four new nukes/year. 44% of new generation (actual, not nameplate) this year should be coming from wind (fellow TODer did calcs & I reviewed them).

20% to 25% compounded annual growth is possible with wind. The new 4.5 GW Southern California project (2009 from memory) is dependent upon a new transmission line being built, which is slowing down the project. Building enough transmission capacity will be (IMHO) the limiting factor for new wind. It also limits new nukes as well.

Best Hopes for Both,

Alan

Solar and wind are making strides, and I am very happy about it. Solar and wind are also a better fit with current coal and natural gas plants because they can be "turned down" or "turned off" when conditions are favorable for conservation. Wind is growing every year, we need overkill in this area so that when the wind does blow it can provide a much greater percentage of power usage. Progress on trough solar is much, much slower than I would like. Trough solar is cheap and easily scalable, it provides power during peak demand, a highly critical area which determines how many plants are to be built. I don't mind modern nuclear plants too much, but they do have several serious drawbacks and limitations.

322MW, onshore south of Glasgow will the largest onshore wind farm in Europe.

300MW Stateline project (Oregon-Wash border) is the largest US wind farm (according to Wikipedia) but

Maple Ridge Windfarm in NY State is rated at 320MW.

Looks like FPE has built one in Texas that is 735MW

http://www.carbonfree.co.uk/cf/news/wk38-0005.htm

The London Array, when built, (offshore), will be nearly 1000MW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_farm#Wind_farms_in_Europe

On your 40,000 MW pa, the answer is most definitely. Roughly speaking, it would cost $52-68bn pa, which is not a great sum of money in the grand scheme of things.

Price of wind power falls by about 18% for each doubling of capacity in the sector.

A greater issue is the extent you can integrate it with the modern electricity grid to handle the intermittency problem.
Australia is using flow batteries at a Tasmanian site. Pumped hydro storage is another significant option.

Roughly speaking, 1 MW of wind capacity costs $1.3-1.7m (source FPL). 1MW of nuclear capacity costs $2.5-$5.0m (there is a big range out there depending on your assumptions). Adjusting for load factor, then, the costs are quite comparable (although the waste disposal liability for nuclear is not factored in).

Nuclear timing

A 3rd Generation reactor is 1350MW or so. Load factor c. 80%, vs. 28% for wind, so equivalent to 3800MW of wind power.

I think the French Flamanville reactor comes on stream in 2016. The Finnish one is late, but is due around 2010 I think. So that is a measure of how and when an established utility (France) will build its first nuclear 3rd gen plant.

For the UK and for the US, I wouldn't expect new nukes before 2016 if not 2018.

Wind and nuclear don't really compete. Nuclear only works economically for baseload (ie if your nuclear capacity is no greater than your baseload demand) because otherwise a nuclear plant winds up giving power away for free during parts of the day (this is also true of wind if wind was more than baseload). Baseload is typically 40% of peak.

Neither nuclear nor wind are 'despatchable' in power market terms. So both trade off against gas and coal and stored hydro, which are despatchable.

"Starting from 0.04% of generation versus 50% for coal, it takes a whole lot of high growth."

Wind produced about .8% of generation in the US at the end of 2006 - it will likely grow by about 50% in 2007 (could be more), to about 1.2%.

"Can we be installing 40,000 MW (nameplate, not factor adjusted) of new wind per year some time in the future (i.e. 4 times current installed base, every new year)? "

Sure. First, there's 13GW of new planned for 2007, per my earlier post. Some of that may actually get finished in 2008, so to be conservative let's assume 7GW. That's more than double the installation rate in 2006. If it only doubles every two years (40% per year) it would get to 40GW in only about 5 years.

Most of the work is manufacturing, which is straighforward to ramp up (which is not to say it's not a large project - it's just very doable). On the installation side: wind farms are similar to nuclear plant facilities: once you have an operating facility, it's much easier to expand.

Hi Alan,

I am pro Nuclear only in the sense of, 'needs must when the devil drives' and would prefer a 'greener solution if possible. To that end do you know if there is anything being done to store wind energy from peak production times in the form of electrolysis produced hydrogen/oxygen. This to ease those dull days and dark nights when neither wind blows nor sun shines.

Black Bald

Very little real world with hydrogen (bad cycle efficiency). Pumped storage is up and running today in fairly large amounts (11 GW for US from memory). 81% cycle efficiency at Bath County.

www.tva.gov/sites/raccoonmt.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station

I am working on a 23% nuke, 77% renewable North American grid concept.

Best Hopes,

Alan

Thanks for the links and for the information about pumped water storage and I can see there is quite a difference between 81% efficiency for pumped water and 'round trip efficiency' of aprox 40% for electrolysis of water, but wouldn't you consider that half a loaf is better than none? Seriously, if there are going to be as much wind as your 77% renewable would imply for wind that would make quite a bit of stored Hydrogen/oxygen. I am assuming that a 'wind farm' would be designed with a fairly large capacity to overproduce. I get my 40% averaged efficiency from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell#Efficiency

Thanks again

Back Bald.

"The laws of physics are such that nuclear fuel has much higher energy density than solar and wind, and that's why it's more practical."

This seems like a very odd thing to say. The raw material for nuclear fuel isn’t the pure material that arrives at the plant, it’s uranium ore, at 1% to .2% concentrations. If you want to use the fuel as your comparison point, then the logical thing to compare it to on the wind side is the first refined step, which is the electricity that windmills produce. Electricity is mighty energy dense.

Wind farms include a large number of windmills over a large area. This may seem low density. On the other hand, oil wells are similar: there are 500,000 oil wells in the US, producing an average of about 12 barrels per day. That’s a much lower energy output than for windmills. Oil wells produce high density oil, windmills produce high density electricity - what’s not to like?

Where did this information come from? Is there a source anyone can give me?

"Which illustrates the fact that coal is often an invisible fuel. The house owner who flips a clean switch on a white wall does not see electricity as coming from coal, nor as a dirty. The Internet user that moves 10 meg of data is not aware that they are using the energy from 2 lb of coal to do so, and so the public is unaware of the situation."

This was near the end of the posting.

Thanks

It is my understanding that the accepted rate in a modern efficient coal plant design is .81 lbs coal per kWh. [link]

My computer uses about 120 watts x 10 hrs per day = 1.2 kWH. So for one day my usage is about .97 lbs of coal equivalent, almost 400 lbs a year. Yeah, I've thought about it.

If I remember Tim was quoting from some information that appeared in a National Geographic article recently on coal that he wrote. He had a picture of a light bulb with a pile of coal below it as the illustrative slide, and this was a second remark to that slide.

HO

Hello HO,

Thxs for this Keypost! Assuming a food crisis hits us soon: are there any methods to rapidly convert Coal into fertilizer, pesticides, and herbicides with the leftover residue being used for terra-prieta bio-char?

My thinking is this may help prevent the burning of this coal for electrojuice or CTL thus drastically reducing coal-GHG. Instead, we would be putting the carbon into the soil as we desperately tried to sustain our food supply. Thxs for any reply.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

I don't remember anyone mentioning them - Tim mentioned that they were using an old fertilizer plant in Illinois to make synthetic diesel, but not fertilizer. Off the top of my head I can't think of a way or a plan, but perhaps someone else might.

HO

Hi HO,
I am curious if there was any rigorous discussion of what "sustainable" is?

My past experience is that the term gets batted around with little common understanding.

My thinking falls in line with Heinberg's recent summary:
http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/articles/851

I noticed the mixing of sustainability goals with that of growth. Increased efficiency, factor 4, etc. Did anyone point out the folly of being four times more thrifty while growing exponentially at an even modest rate?

It is interesting that the universities are trying to work with local governments. I think that is great. Local elected officials are so overwhelmed and are usually without the relevant comprehension to do their jobs effectively. Application of basic math skills would go a long way on a city council! But politics is amazingly tricky and I wonder how the academics are getting on?

Actually there was quite a discussion, in the panel following the community section - but I chopped it way back since I was trying to keep this to a reasonable length - I have about 3 pages of notes on that. It should be a part of the video record, which they probably will post before long

HO

MANDATORY RENEWABLE ENERGY – THE ENERGY EVOLUTION –R12

In order to insure energy and economic independence as well as better economic growth without being blackmailed by foreign countries, our country, the United States of America’s Utilization of Energy Sources must change.
"Energy drives our entire economy.” We must protect it. "Let's face it, without energy the whole economy and economic society we have set up would come to a halt. So you want to have control over such an important resource that you need for your society and your economy." The American way of life is not negotiable.
Our continued dependence on fossil fuels could and will lead to catastrophic consequences.

The federal, state and local government should implement a mandatory renewable energy installation program for residential and commercial property on new construction and remodeling projects with the use of energy efficient material, mechanical systems, appliances, lighting, etc. The source of energy must be by renewable energy such as Solar-Photovoltaic, Geothermal, Wind, Biofuels, Ocean-Tidal, Hydrogen-Fuel Cell etc. This includes the utilizing of water from lakes, rivers and oceans to circulate in cooling towers to produce air conditioning and the utilization of proper landscaping to reduce energy consumption. (Sales tax on renewable energy products and energy efficiency should be reduced or eliminated)

The implementation of mandatory renewable energy could be done on a gradual scale over the next 10 years. At the end of the 10 year period all construction and energy use in the structures throughout the United States must be 100% powered by renewable energy. (This can be done by amending building code)

In addition, the governments must impose laws, rules and regulations whereby the utility companies must comply with a fair “NET METERING” (the buying of excess generation from the consumer at market price), including the promotion of research and production of “renewable energy technology” with various long term incentives and grants. The various foundations in existence should be used to contribute to this cause.

A mandatory time table should also be established for the automobile industry to gradually produce an automobile powered by renewable energy. The American automobile industry is surely capable of accomplishing this task. As an inducement to buy hybrid automobiles (sales tax should be reduced or eliminated on American manufactured automobiles).

This is a way to expedite our energy independence and economic growth. (This will also create a substantial amount of new jobs). It will take maximum effort and a relentless pursuit of the private, commercial and industrial government sectors’ commitment to renewable energy – energy generation (wind, solar, hydro, biofuels, geothermal, energy storage (fuel cells, advance batteries), energy infrastructure (management, transmission) and energy efficiency (lighting, sensors, automation, conservation) (rainwater harvesting, water conservation) (energy and natural resources conservation) in order to achieve our energy independence.

"To succeed, you have to believe in something with such a passion that it becomes a reality."

Jay Draiman, Energy Consultant
Northridge, CA. 91325
Feb. 12, 2007

P.S. I have a very deep belief in America's capabilities. Within the next 10 years we can accomplish our energy independence, if we as a nation truly set our goals to accomplish this.
I happen to believe that we can do it. In another crisis--the one in 1942--President Franklin D. Roosevelt said this country would build 60,000 [50,000] military aircraft. By 1943, production in that program had reached 125,000 aircraft annually. They did it then. We can do it now.
The American people resilience and determination to retain the way of life is unconquerable and we as a nation will succeed in this endeavor of Energy Independence.

The Oil Companies should be required to invest a substantial percentage of their profit in renewable energy R&D and implementation. Those who do not will be panelized by the public at large by boy cutting their products.

Solar energy is the source of all energy on the earth (excepting volcanic geothermal). Wind, wave and fossil fuels all get their energy from the sun. Fossil fuels are only a battery which will eventually run out. The sooner we can exploit all forms of Solar energy (cost effectively or not against dubiously cheap FFs) the better off we will all be. If the battery runs out first, the survivors will all be living like in the 18th century again.

Every new home built should come with a solar package. A 1.5 kW per bedroom is a good rule of thumb. The formula 1.5 X's 5 hrs per day X's 30 days will produce about 225 kWh per bedroom monthly. This peak production period will offset 17 to 2

4 cents per kWh with a potential of $160 per month or about $60,000 over the 30-year mortgage period for a three-bedroom home. It is economically feasible at the current energy price and the interest portion of the loan is deductible. Why not?

Title 24 has been mandated forcing developers to build energy efficient homes. Their bull-headedness put them in that position and now they see that Title 24 works with little added cost. Solar should also be mandated and if the developer designs a home that solar is impossible to do then they should pay an equivalent mitigation fee allowing others to put solar on in place of their negligence. (Installation should be paid “performance based”).

Installation of renewable energy and its performance should be paid to the installer and manufacturer based on "performance based" (that means they are held accountable for the performance of the product - that includes the automobile industry). This will gain the trust and confidence of the end-user to proceed with such a project; it will also prove to the public that it is a viable avenue of energy conservation.

Installing a renewable energy system on your home or business increases the value of the property and provides a marketing advantage.

Nations of the world should unite and join together in a cohesive effort to develop and implement MANDATORY RENEWABLE ENERGY for the sake of humankind and future generations.
The head of the U.S. government's renewable energy lab said Monday (Feb. 5) that the federal government is doing "embarrassingly few things" to foster renewable energy, leaving leadership to the states at a time of opportunity to change the nation's energy future. "I see little happening at the federal level. Much more needs to happen." What's needed, he said, is a change of our national mind set. Instead of viewing the hurdles that still face renewable sources and setting national energy goals with those hurdles in mind, we should set ambitious national renewable energy goals and set about overcoming the hurdles to meet them. We have an opportunity, an opportunity we can take advantage of or an opportunity we can squander and let go,"
solar energy - the direct conversion of sunlight with solar cells, either into electricity or hydrogen, faces cost hurdles independent of their intrinsic efficiency. Ways must be found to lower production costs and design better conversion and storage systems.

Jay Draiman
Northridge, CA 91325
Email: renewableenergy2@msn.com

I have a very deep belief in America's capabilities

I no longer do. I live in New Orleans. I heard the promises and seen the results.

The French came in with their renowed "Can Do" spirit and "just did it" to rebuild 5 firehouses to give minimal coverage of the flooded areas.

The rest of the firehouses are likely years away due to that infamous American bureaucracy in DC. One example of a thousand.

The US COULD do many things today to prepare for Peak Oil.

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_lrt_2006-05a.htm

But we do not have the will or intelligence to do ANYTHING (even raise CAFE standards, the easiest and minimal first step).

I have moved most of my investments to nations with greater spirit, intelligence, planning and will.

Best Hopes for Switzerland, Brazil, Thailand and the Nordic countries,

Alan

P.S. The "Greatest Generation" are now all over 80 years old or dead. The US today is not the US of 1942.

These things come and go in cycles.

I despair for the US of A, then it does something amazing.

Americans drive me nuts, and then they do something really generous and open.

One of GWB's lasting legacies will be a quadrupling of aid to Africa. Now they have blunted the impact (by insisting on abstinence-centric anti AIDS programmes) but no 'liberal' president could have easily achieved that-- the US is pumping billions into fighting AIDS and malaria.

Yet there is very little comment about that. I hate GWB as much as anyone (war with Iran for an encore?) but this is something quite important that has been done on his watch.

The US does nothing about global warming, doesn't seem to care, yet the European response has been to 'cook the books' so we don't have to do anything serious (but can moralise at the Yanks).

And then 'an Inconvenient Truth' comes out, and the world seems suddenly changed (the financier of the film, Jeff Skoll, is actually a Canadian who was employee number 3 or 4 at eBay). It takes a has been American politician on a mission to say the things in a way the world finally hears.

I think certain parts of the US government and society are very good: the military usually impresses me (when it is not squandering billions on high tech weapons systems).

And the political cycle may turn. I don't know if Barak is the man, but he has shaken up the race. Mrs. Clinton I think is a very competent and safe pair of hands.

On global warming, at least, I have hopes for Senator McCain.

Heading Out,
I do want to thank you for your report from the Emerging Energy Technologies Summit, it has been comprehensive, and in it's own way, interesting, a bit of a catch up on where the "minds" of the sustainable/peak/energy/technology etc. movement are these days.

Well, how do I say this without seeming in any way rude...the only way I can do it is by being direct: The content that you have done such a great job reporting back from the Summit is, well, disappointing in the extreme.

First, while the word "Technologies" may have been in the title of the conference, the discussion of technology seems to have been almost non existent at the summit.

There was talk of rebuilding sustainable communities, but this seemed to center most around some redesign of living arrangements for the population.
The whole thing smacked of a latter day attempt at Brazilia, and we know how well most of these "planned cities" have worked out. Either way, that cannot be considered "emerging" or technology" in any normal sense, given that planned communities such as Village Homes have existed since the 1970's (and others even before), and that most of the housing/communities in the world cannot be easily abandoned on some "sustainability" scheme, especially in poor developing countries.

Then the whole discussion turned to climate change and water. I certainly do not disregard the importance of water conservation, but this is not an "energy" issue per se. My view is however slanted on that right now, being in the U.S Ohio Valley, where flooding and continued rain makes the idea of water shortage academic at best. I also remember the "Mississippi River is going dry" period of the 1970's early 1980's, and the concerns of a "coming water drought" in the Midwest and South that created thoughts of massive water projects in the U.S. back in the 1960's, plans that were laid aside due to cost considerations as the U.S. spent money on the war on poverty, the space program and the Vietnam War. My point is that water issues are as old as history, a continuing human problem, and not an "emerging" or "energy" issue except in a tangential way.

There was discussion of nuclear power. Again, far from emerging, this is technology that is now over a half century old. I saw no real discussion of waste storage solutions that are either advanced nor new breakthroughs that make nuclear a different option than it has always been. I am not in any way anti nuclear, but see it's fundamental problem as economic, not technical. Competing against coal and planning for the possibility of cheap renewables (solar and wind as they develop better EROEI) is hard for nuclear investors to face.

The conference seemed to wander from one tired and over discussed over studied idea to another, from water, to climate, to community design, to coal and carbon sequestration, all of which are long known problems, and none of which any of the great new technical work being done were mentioned in relation to. Your closing comments:
"And so we left, out into a wet evening, much better informed, and enlightened, yet with some discouragement at the prospects."

Frankly, if the conference topics you reported on were inclusive and accurate (and I have absolutely no reason to believe they were not, again, compliments on your good reporting, the content of the conference was not your responsibility), then I would have been discouraged, indeed, very very discouraged.

Of course, things move on very fast in the real world of technology.

You mentioned.
"We must learn to ask the right questions, which might have led to butanol rather than corn ethanol (butanol might be better harvested from sugar beets – to answer a question I got asked at lunch)."

Despite what most folks seem to believe, "bio-fuels" is about much more than ethanol. I have posted recently about Dupont/BP and their fast moving bio butanol program, and how fast micro biology is changing the frontiers of what is possible from bio fuels extraction. Sadly, this subject seems to interest no one here, but big money and fast advances are being made.

Thin film solar is continuing at a stunningly fast pace of development, and despite wild eyed claims here that it relies on "rare minerals" (it doesn't....the discussion of indium has been about price, and often there is not a lot on hand because it has been so cheap until recently that often no one even bothered to extract it), and thin film in only it's first few years of development is closing in on the threshold of power production that it has taken silicon cells a half century to achieve, and at less cost)

Advanced battery development is continuing to speed ahead, as costs for lithium chemistries continue to come down, and life cycle reliability goes up. We are getting closer to the battery matching the life of the car, which will be a financially revolutionary breakthrough, and the series hybrid developments show the promise of stunning reductions in liquid fuel consumption, and have already begin to set a "ceiling" on the highest possible price for crude oil, before alternatives would kick in and hold the price back.

Other types of hybrid show great promise for trucks, buses and RV type vehicles. The "Hydraulic Hybrid" has proven viable in every test, and can recapture massive amounts of energy lost to braking/deceleration. However, the advances were put on the shelf and ignored almost as they were discovered, with no real funding going forward provided. Ideas are quickly forgotten in the U.S.

Various types of pumped storage, battery arrangements and compressed air systems are still being developed, many of them showing great promise, but again are dismissed as soon as they are developed. These can reduce the "variability" problem of wind and solar to almost non significance, but still, "variability" is hurled in the face of any renewables supporter to end any productive discussion.

This Summit seems to be one more in what has become a trend, what I call the "woe's me" conference. These begin with the premise that it's bad, very very bad, and nothing can really be done, and end with the folks going away depressed and discouraged, that the conference proved it was bad, very bad, and the prospects for human existence are dim.

The paragraph about remarks by one Gary Barsley were classic. "He did object to plans for a local LNG port, he feels that installing one just delays the need to face the fact of energy depletion." Of course, the same logic applies to taking medication or for that matter eating food.....it just delays the need to face the fact that we're going to die, doesn't it?

In the same paragraph, Barsley discusses "With an aging work force how does industry attract the “best and the brightest” – his answer was to provide a sustainable environment." Can I ask, and please be honest, If you were a promising young talent, would you come to an industry or stake your career on such morbid "can't do" spirit, where whatever you propose will be dismissed out of hand? As your closing line indicated "discouragement at the prospects" would define any bright young persons analysis of the so called "Emerging Energy" field.

But thankfully, the world is much much larger than the talent pool at these conferences. The real work goes on in the labs and shops, by technicians and fabricators and hands on types who pay little attention to "can't do"....because they are busy doing.

Roger Conner Jr.
Remember, we are only one cubic mile from freedom (did anybody mention that at the Summit?)