The Auto Efficiency Wedge

ED by PG: This article was originally posted December 20, 2006. Note that it has been resubmitted to reddit and digg this morning, so do help spread the word and give Stuart some more readers if you are so inclined. Send the link to someone today.

US finished motor gasoline supplied, 1945-2005, together with scenarios for 1.7% growth, and 2% and 3% declines from 2007 to 2045. Quantities expressed in millions of barrels per day. Click to enlarge. Source: US EIA for historical data. See text for scenario rationale.

In this piece, I wanted to take up a more precise consideration of how much auto efficiency improvements might contribute to solving what I called the terrible trio of energy dependence on unstable regimes, global warming, and the peaking or plateauing of liquid fuel supply. My examples are all US, but I think the lessons mostly carry over (if a little less urgently) to other developed countries.

I'll be reasoning mainly by looking at what we did in the 1970s, which was the last time we faced severe energy constraints that bled through into requiring a demand side response.

To begin with, let's refresh our memories about the history of oil prices, which tells the story of the oil shocks quite well.

Real oil prices, annual average, 1945-2005, expressed in 2004 dollars. Click to enlarge. Source: BP Statistical Review of World Energy 2006.

In this graph, like most in this piece, I've adopted the convention of coloring 1973-1978 in blue. 1973 was the Arab oil embargo: the first oil shock. From shortly after the end of the second world war (in 1945 when the graph starts) until the early 1970s, prices were low, stable, and declining in real terms. The Arab oil embargo in '73 caused a very rapid quadrupling of prices, and they have never been anything like as low or stable since then.

I've also colored the period 1978-1992 in red. 1979 brought the Iranian revolution, shortly followed by the Iran-Iraq war. Prices doubled again from the mid-seventies values, and stayed high, though steadily declining, through about 1985. By 1986, prices entered a new regime of fluctuating in the $20s and $30s until the runup in price of the last few years (which I believed to be probably caused by the onset of a plateau in global production).

As we'll discuss below, 1992 was when the period of rapid fuel economy increases initiated by the oil shocks ended.

Let's now look at how total gasoline used in the US evolved in response to this history.

US finished motor gasoline supplied, 1945-2005, expressed in millions of barrels per day. Click to enlarge. Source: US EIA.

We see strong and steady growth prior to 1973. 1973 saw only a minor blip downwards, but growth rapidly resumed. However, following the Iranian revolution, gasoline usage dropped sharply, and then began growing again only very slowly and hesitantly, and did not exceed the 1978 value until the 1990s. Since 1992, gasoline usage has been steadily increasing, though at a slower pace than in the 1950s and 1960s.

It's useful to decompose gasoline usage as a product of two things: the total amount of miles driven, and the fuel efficiency of the vehicles doing the driving. Miles driven is mainly a function of the physical layout of society (where houses, schools, offices, factories etc are located, and thus how far people have to drive to get to them), and human behavior (how often people decide to go to a particular destination, and whether they choose to go alone, share a ride, or to take some form of transportation other than driving). Fuel efficiency is mainly a function of vehicle technology, with a small component of driving behavior mixed in (we'll see an example of how small below).

Here is the total number of miles driven (expressed in billions of miles/day) in the US on all roads by all vehicles. Again we are looking from the end of WWII until last year.

US vehicle miles traveled (all vehicles, all roads), 1945-2005, expressed in billions of miles per day. Click to enlarge. Source: FHWA Highway Statistics series.

The oil shocks made rather less impact on the human behavior and land use components. VMT only dipped down very slightly, following each increase in price, and then resumed growth quickly, even when prices stayed high. We can see this more clearly by looking at the changes in VMT on a year on year basis.

Year on prior year percentage change in US vehicle miles traveled (all vehicles, all roads), 1945-2005. Click to enlarge. Source: FHWA Highway Statistics series.

As you can see, the effect of the Arab oil embargo was essentially gone after 1974: growth in VMT resumed at about 5% per year in the mid seventies, much as it had been in the fifties and sixties. This is despite the fact that prices did not go down again in 1974, but stayed at the $40 level ($2004) through 1978. However, 1978 caused a more profound transformation - miles only actually shrank in two years (1979 and 1980), but growth was depressed for several more years after than, and didn't reach the 5% mark again until the late eighties. It has been consistently lower than that since (which I discuss below). Anyway, the second '70s oil shock drove the point home more strongly than the events of 1973 and caused a multi-year shaving of VMT growth (but very little and brief actual reduction in the absolute level of driving).

The fuel efficiency response to the oil shocks was much stronger than the VMT response. The next graph is an approximate estimate of gasoline vehicle fuel efficiency derived by taking total gasoline supplied numbers from the EIA, and dividing them into VMT statistics (corrected for non-gasoline vehicles1). Note that this is not the fuel efficiency of new vehicles supplied, but rather the achieved fuel efficiency of the entire gasoline fleet in actual use that year.

Estimated fuel efficiency for all deployed gasoline vehicles in the United States by year, 1945-2005. Click to enlarge. Source: Author's approximate calculations based on FHWA Highway Statistics series for vehicle miles traveled data, and US EIA for data on finished motor gasoline supplied. See text for details.

Fuel efficiency was trending up very slowly from 1945, but had only reached 12mpg by 1973. It starts up slightly faster in the blue region between 1973 and 1978, but then really starts to take off after 1978, climbing to almost 19mpg by 1992. Since then it has resumed a very slow rise, similar to the pre 1973 years. It never went down again. Thus the oil shocks clearly caused a large and permanent change in the fuel efficiency of the US vehicle fleet.

We can see this in more detail if we look at a graph of year-on-year percentage changes throughout this period:

Year on prior year percentage change in estimated fuel efficiency for all deployed gasoline vehicles in the United States by year, 1945-2005. Click to enlarge. Source: Author's approximate calculations based on FHWA Highway Statistics series for vehicle miles traveled data, and US EIA for data on finished motor gasoline supplied. See text for details.

Prior to 1973, percentage increases oscillate generally in the 0%-1% band. Overall, from 1945 to 1973, the compound annual growth rate in fuel efficiency was 0.7%/year. After 1978, increases are much higher, fluctuating mostly over 2%, and reaching a high of a 6.5% gain from 1979 to 1980. On average, from 1978 to 1992, fuel economy grow at a compound annual growth rate of 2.8%/year - a major contribution to the situation. From 1992-2005, however, progress has stalled, with average annual growth of only 0.3%/year.

One thing that struck me as very surprising is the lack of impact of the 55mph speed limit. This was adopted in 1973, and one might have expected it to make an abrupt and significant contribution to the solution. However, fuel economy increases between 1974 and 1977 were only very slightly higher than those of earlier years and it is rather hard to discern a major effect (eg a big spike up in the fuel economy growth rate in 1974 is not evident at all - there is not even a modest response until 1975). Nor is there any sign of a decline in fuel economy when the policy ended in 1995. Overall, I find very little evidence that the 55mph speed limit had much effect at all - presumably compliance was too poor for the theoretical benefits to emerge in practice.

In thinking about the post-peak future, then, it seems clear that the 2.8%/year average growth in fuel economy achieved 1978-1992 has to be taken as a lower bound on what the economy could do in response to high fuel prices. Obviously, the response faded away, but that is clearly not because we are anywhere close to the technical limits of fuel economy, but rather because the price stimulus faded away. There are 50mpg vehicles on the road now that are acceptable to at least some current consumers, and the next generation Prius (available in 2008) is rumored to achieve close to 100mpg while improving acceleration from the present version. While not everyone will drive a Prius, the mix of cars does shift towards compacts and subcompacts when oil gets expensive. And of course, the 2008 Prius is very unlikely to be the end of auto-engineer's ingenuity when sparked by high gas prices. All in all, there seems no reason to suppose that the gasoline powered fleet could not run four or five times more efficiently than the current approximately 20mpg fleet, and probably more eventually. It's just a matter of how quickly we can/will get there.

It is tempting to take the 6.5%+ annual improvement in fuel economy achieved from 1979 to 1980 as a best case for the annual improvement in fuel economy that could be achieved on a sustained basis if we really, really had to. There are some significant uncertainties however that make me uncomfortable with this. Let me outline both those uncertainties before giving my rationale for my eventual choice. With the available data, it's hard to understand in detail how the adaptation that year was achieved - it's a stunningly high figure given that in recent years only 8% of the auto fleet has been sold annually (that is sales of new cars is 8% of the size of the fleet, roughly).

Let's review the summary data. Here's the overall size of the fleet of both cars and light trucks (ie SUVs, minivans, and pickups):

Total population of US cars and light trucks, 1970-2003. Click to enlarge. Source: Transportation Energy Data Book, Tables 4.1 and 4.2.

Clearly visible is the gradual secular trend towards light trucks and away from cars. The oil shocks are not a profound feature of that trend. Now, however, let's look at sales, expressed here as a percentage of the fleet size in the year of sales:

New sales of US cars and light trucks as a proportion of the existing fleet, 1970-2003. Click to enlarge. Source: Transportation Energy Data Book, Tables 4.1, 4.2, 4.5, and 4.6.

Three things stand out. Firstly, the light truck sales/fleet ratio is higher than that of automobiles, reflecting mainly the fact that the light truck fleet is growing faster. The "combined" line is closer to the car line (since there are more cars in the population). Secondly, in the past, the sales/fleet ratio was typically higher (with the combined ratio being around 10%-12%, versus the 8% in more recent years). Probably this is because cars last longer these days. Thirdly, the oil shocks are clearly visible as sharp drops of several percentage points in the sales/fleet ratio (reflecting the fact that the oil shocks triggered or worsened serious recessions, and car sales go down in recessions).

Since in 1979-1980 the sales to fleet ratio was down at around 7.5%, it's very hard to see how substitution of old vehicles with new could have given rise to a 6.5% rise in fuel economy. To get a better lock on this, we need to understand how many sales went to fleet replacement, versus fleet growth. By looking at year on year changes in fleet size, as well as sales, I came up with the following breakdown into the proportion of the fleet that gets replaced each year, and the proportion that is involved in growing the fleet:

Sales of US cars and light trucks as a proportion of the existing fleet, broken down into a segment used to replace scrapped cars, and a portion used to grow the fleet. 1970-2003. Click to enlarge. Source: Transportation Energy Data Book, Tables 4.1, 4.2, 4.5, and 4.62.

Note that the couple of times the "growth" number went negative is because the fleet shrank slightly in those years. As you can see, the "replacement" proportion is much more stable at around 6% of the fleet (give or take a percentage point), with most of the volatility in the growth line.

Still, this makes the 6.5% fuel economy gain in 1980 all the more interesting, since only about 5-6% of the fleet was replaced in 1979 and 1980. There are two possibilities that I can think of. One is that scrappage mainly affects vehicles that are much worse than the average fuel economy, while new cars bought during an oil shock are much better than the average fuel economy. However, we know the new fuel economy stats, and there's no way to explain all the fuel economy gain this way. So perhaps there must also be internal rearrangement of the fleet. That is to say, high mileage drivers sell gas-guzzlers to low-mileage users, and/or pick the highest-mileage vehicle available to them for longer trips.

All in all, I feel that I don't understand this number well enough to assume it could be sustained. However, I note that in 1979 there was a 4% improvement in deployed fuel economy, and then again in 1989 there was a 3.9% increase. Plus several other years achieved improvents in fuel economy over 3.5%. Therefore, I feel that 4%/year is a reasonable estimate for the economy's sustained ability to improve fuel economy when it's under very great pricing pressure to do so.

Some might argue that there is a case for assuming the post peak-oil the economy will be very different and capable of much larger responses. However, I notice that the replacement rate for the vehicle fleet has been pretty stable at around 6% for several decades and in oil shocks changed only slightly (and that down, rather than up). Thus I think the case for assuming that we can improve fuel economy faster than that after peak oil is poor. (Not that it definitely couldn't happen - the uncertainties are considerable - but it seems unwise to plan on it).

In short, then, after lots of detailed analysis, my best guess for the potential size of the fuel efficiency wedge remains the same as my first SWAG of 4%/year.

To make clearer what that would look like, suppose hypothetically that we began increasing fuel economy at 4%/year starting in 2007 over 2006. Here's the picture:

Hypothetical fuel economy (miles/gallon) to 2050 with a 4% growth rate starting in 2007. Click to enlarge.

Clearly, it would take sustained major pricing pressure to make people do this. However, I have also put the current nominal fuel efficiency of the current model Prius, and the rumored efficiency of the 2008 Prius on the chart. We wouldn't reach the former level as a fleet average until about 2030, and the latter level wouldn't be reached until after 2040. So clearly, there is no technical barrier whatsoever to a number of decades of 4% fuel economy growth. And that ought to be long enough to solve the large-scale plugin hybrid problem. So I'm quite willing to assume sustained 4%/year increases out past mid-century.

To achieve higher than around 4%/year gains, it seems to me that it is likely market mechanisms would not suffice. The key to going faster would be retiring more old inefficient vehicles and replacing them with new highly efficient ones. Gas taxes would be one method, but I suspect that what might be a lot more politically acceptable is something like a government tax break for people who retire an inefficient vehicle and replace it with one that's at least X% more fuel-efficient (this would create more benefit than the current hybrid tax-break, since it would encourage retirement of bad vehicles, as well as purchase of good ones). However, I cannot currently estimate how cost-effective such a program would be. A more muscular approach would be to create sunset dates for low fuel-efficiency vehicles enforced through the existing smog-testing infrastructure. All vehicles that failed the current fuel economy bar would be forcibly retired, and the bar would be raised each year. It would require considerable political will to create the conditions under which such legislation would be passed.

Next, I'd like to make some more analysis of what is the business-as-usual case from which one should be deducting this as a wedge. For this, we need to go back to the VMT statistics. I would like to now break VMT down into a product of two factors, both growing. The first is the US population, and the second is the VMT/capita.

Let's take population first. It has the merit of being very boring in its behavior:

US population, 1945-2005. Click to enlarge. Source: US Census Bureau estimates via Texas State Library and Archives.

As you can see, with the exception of a couple of anomalies, most notably in 2000, the growth has been very smooth and linear. I have not been able to track down what happened in 2000, but my guess is that there was some change in the Census Bureau's estimation methodology, rather than an actual sudden step in population. Henceforth I will treat that year as an outlier to be ignored.

We can get a more precise sense of past growth by looking at the year-on-prior-year percentage change in population.

Year on prior year change in US population, 1945-2005. Click to enlarge. Source: US Census Bureau estimates via Texas State Library and Archives.

Population growth dropped to 1%/year about forty years ago, and has been very stable there ever since. The 1970s oil shocks had no impact at all on population growth, and nor has much of anything else that's happened since about 1965. It seems, then, that any projection other than "about 1%/year" going forward would be rather hard to justify. The demographers at the Census Bureau believe it will drop gradually to about 0.8%/year over coming decades, but the difference seems small enough that I will stick with the numerically more convenient 1%.

If we now divide the population out of the VMT growth, we get the following graph for VMT per person (this is all vehicle miles by all vehicles on any road in the US, divided by every man, woman, mewling infant, etc).

US vehicle miles traveled (all vehicles, all roads) per capita, 1945-2005, expressed in miles per day. Click to enlarge. Source: FHWA Highway Statistics series for VMT, and US Census Bureau estimates via Texas State Library and Archives for population.

Back in the late 40s, we managed on less than 10 miles of daily vehicle movement per person. Now it's up over 25 miles per person. It was climbing until the last year when high oil prices (presumably) have caused it to level out. The oil shocks in the 1970s loom a little larger in the per-capita signal than in the overall total (not surprising in light of the fact that population growth was completely unpeturbed by oil shocks, so all the effect on VMT comes from the per-capita factor, rather than the population multiplier). Let's look more closely at the year-to-year changes:

Year on prior year changes in US vehicle miles traveled (all vehicles, all roads) per capita, 1945-2005. Click to enlarge. Source: FHWA Highway Statistics series for VMT, and US Census Bureau estimates via Texas State Library and Archives for population.

Hmmm. The oil shocks are very visible, but as we noted before, did not have very long-lived effects on VMT growth. The 73 shock (which apparently mostly just primed people to respond to the 79 shock), causes a dip in the curve that is really over by 1975. However, the 79 shock takes several years, to overcome, with VMT/capita growth not back to normal until 1983.

However, there's another interesting and important thing expressed in this picture, and that is that VMT per capita growth was significantly lower in the 1990s than it was in the 1980s, and also in the 1950s and 1960s. To quantify the issue, here are the compound annual growth rates for a couple of regions of the graph:

YearsGrowth
1950-1973 3.2%/yr
1973-19831.7%/yr
1983-19932.3%/yr
1993-20031.1%/yr

What's going on here? The growth in VMT/capita was lower in the 90s even than in the period 1973-1983 when there were oil shocks. This matters because we want to know if this decline would continue in the future even if we had no oil supply/carbon emission problems, or if it would rebound.

Here is likely one piece of the explanation. The next graph shows the ratio of people to housing units in the US. This is, roughly, the average number of people in a household, but also incorporates the effects of empty units, vacation homes, etc:

Number of housing units per capita, 1950-2003, from two sources. Click to enlarge. Source: Department of Housing and Urban Development for housing unit statistics, and US Census Bureau estimates via Texas State Library and Archives for population. Teal line uses housing unit estimates from Census Bureau Decennial Census of Housing, which doesn't quite match the HUD numbers, but the trend seems much the same.

As you can see, people/unit declined steadily from the end of the second world war through the end of the 1980s. This probably primarily reflects the increasing trend towards divorce and the demise of the extended family as a living unit. However, it also no doubt got an assist from more vacation homes. Likely, demographic factors also played a role (from 1945 through much of the 1960s, the baby boomers were kids at home, and after that they moved out). Obviously, to the extent people are spreading out into more housing units, they are going to tend to use more VMT each, though it's not a linear matter (Eg consider a couple with two kids who divorce and get 50% custody. The two kids still only need to be taken to school once each. However, the two small households are likely to make nearly twice as many grocery runs as the one big household. The number of jobs held is likely to go up also, on average).

In the 1990s, people/unit stabilized and has been pretty much flat ever since. This could have a lot to do with the slowing in the growth of VMT/capita. To the extent this is a permanent social change, then VMT/capita might continue to grow at a lower rate in the future (even in the absence of oil/carbon constraints). Another possibility to consider is that people/household might actually start to go up again in the future, especially in the face of a tighter economy; adult children might be slower to leave home, aging relatives might be more likely to live with family as nursing home expenses continue to escalate, divorce may seem less economically feasible, etc. However, given that the seventies oil shocks caused no densification whatsoever, it is probably unrealistic to expect anything more than an extremely gradual rise.

Besides people/unit, another likely factor in the 1990s is congestion. As the FHWA describes the matter:

During this period, growth in highway and mass transit systems in the United States did not expand at the same pace as the growth in travel demand. In the case of highways, total mileage in lane miles increased only 0.2 percent nationally during the entire period, from 8.11 million miles in 1992 to 8.25 million miles in 2000. As a result, travel per lane mile increased on all systems and, in particular, at faster rates on rural routes. While most travel now occurs in urban areas, approximately 77 percent of lane miles are on rural, local-owned highways.
Without getting into the debate over whether this reflects a lack of political will to build highways, or the impossibility of solving the problem by building more highways, the effect was that congestion went up:

Annual number of delay hours per person due to highway congestion. Click to enlarge. Source: Federal Highway Administration Fiscal Year 2003 Performance Plan.

Presumably, this has a deterrent effect on traveling and has contributed to the slower growth in VMT/capita.

For my purposes here, I am going to assume that "business-as-usual" going forward, in the absence of energy issues, would have been continued 1%/year growth in VMT/capita (cf the 1.1%/yr growth in this quantity from 1993-2003). Combining this with the 1%/yr growth in population, we would anticipate 2%/year growth in VMT. Since, as above, fuel economy has been increasing at 0.3%/year since 1992, our overall business-as-usual in gasoline usage would be 1.7%/year growth.

This next graph shows that 1.7% growth in gasoline usage out through 2045 (the end of my expected lifetime :-). I also show what would happen if VMT growth was identical, but fuel economy increases by 4%/year instead of only 0.3%/year.

US finished motor gasoline supplied, 1945-2005, together with scenarios for 1.7% growth, and 2% and 3% declines from 2007 to 2045. Quantities expressed in millions of barrels per day. Click to enlarge. Source: US EIA.

As you can see, it makes an enormously dramatic difference. The most aggressive scenario on the graph shows what would happen if, in addition to improving fuel economy by 4%/year, we also could hold VMT/capita constant from here on out (instead of it growing at 1%/year as under the business as usual scenario). That's better still, but stabilizing VMT/capita is not nearly as useful as getting fuel economy moving upward as fast as possible.

Finally, to aid your intuition for growth and decline processes a little further, my last graph shows the business as usual and 3% decline scenarios with two different ones in-between. The 0.7%/year growth is what you'd get if you just capped VMT/capita growth but only continued the recent history of 0.3% fuel efficiency. The 1.1%/year decline would come from business-as-usual VMT/capita growth together with 2.8%/year annual increases in fuel efficiency (the same as was actually achieved on average from 1978 to 1992).

US finished motor gasoline supplied, 1945-2005, together with scenarios for 1.7% growth, 0.7% growth and 1.1% and 3% declines from 2007 to 2045. Quantities expressed in millions of barrels per day. Click to enlarge. Source: US EIA.

Footnotes

  1. The approximation comes in that it is not straightforward to allocate vehicle miles between gasoline vehicles and diesel vehicles from the available statistics. My approach from 1966 on is to assume that all passenger cars and all "two axle four wheel trucks" run on gasoline, and larger trucks and buses run on other fuels. Prior to 1996, the "two axle four wheel" trucks are not broken out from other trucks, and I linearly interpolated that post 1966 data backward to estimate the proportion of larger trucks. My procedure is unlikely to be perfect (some cars and light trucks run on diesel and some larger trucks burn gasoline), but the error is probably modest, and probably fairly stable over time. In recent years, FHWA has made their own estimate of deployed fleet fuel economy via methods they don't document enough to reproduce. Their estimates are about 1/2mpg higher than mine. Theirs may well be more accurate, but are not available throughout the period of interest.
  2. There is some uncertainty in the allocation of this quantities between neighbouring years, since it is not clear whether the fleet totals in the TEDB are for the beginning or end of the year, or an average. Here it is assumed that they are end of the year totals.
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A graph that Khebab did showed the increase in net US Total Petroleum (crude + product) Imports has been going up at close to 5% per year, as our domestic production has fallen and as our consumption has increased.  

The conventional wisdom, reinforced by Yergin et al, is that we can continue with an exponential increase in imports for years to come.

As I said before, IMO we are now facing a collision between the expectation of  exponentially increasing imports and the new reality of exponentially declining exports--led by the Saudi's estimated 13% decline in exports from 12/05 to 12/06.  

For US imports to just stay constant, we have to reduce our consumption by a volume of oil that is equal to our annual volumetric decline in production.   And we have to reduce our consumption by the same amount--matching domestic decline--every year going forward, just to keep imports constant.  Note the key challenge here--this would only keep our imports flat year over year, while world net export capacity is now declining (whether this trend will be reversed is the key question; I think not).

--Total Petroleum Imports have been increasing at close to 5% per year since 1990.

It sounds like your saying we could have a price shock as early as next year ?
The latest data show that IEA countries were drawing down crude oil inventories (in October) by 1.3 mbpd.  Since October, we have been pulling down US product inventories by close to a million barrels per day.  

The Saudis have reportedly told some Asian refiners that they can only have 92% of the crude in January that they wanted to buy, down from 95% in December.  Voluntary?  Right.

IMO, the export crisis is upon us.


From my reading the data on gasoline usage, recessions don't even show up on fuel consumption so for now I don't think anything outside a world wide depression will cause a significant drop in fuel usage.

Hmm I figured a spike late next summer based on to many negative factors causing a run on the market I did not consider any actual shortages for quite a bit longer 2009 at the earliest.

My opinion is still only a price spike in 2007 since I think KSA is filling storage and we still have the SPR that can be drawn down. Plus I think they have idled some production it may be heavy oil but I still think its happened.

So if you consider these factors we won't see shortages in 2007 and probably not 2008. 2009 is looking like a really bad year maybe 2008 but I think we will squeeze through 2007 with just one price spike and limp into 2008 with oil under 100.

Of course this depends on the decline rates of the big fields but I'd have to guess we have one more year at least  where excess capacity and stockpiles will prevent outright shortages and all we see are price swings with on big spike.

We just have to wait and see what KSA does when oil passes 70. If their production does not come back up for 6 months or more we know the party is over. So I guess we will know exactly where the world is at in 2007.

One thing about them claiming cuts and proclaiming a floor at 60 is it will soon be obvious where KSA is at as prices move well above this floor price.

If KSA says they are now comfortable with 70 next year ....

I don't think anything outside a world wide depression will cause a significant drop in fuel usage

¿Maybe a reduction on available fuel?

I do not care what some vice president says about something being non negotiable. If something gets too expensive, people will cut down. Witness medical insurance.

I did not say it would be pretty.


I dunno I thought the same the facts seem to indicate that economic recession at least on the scale we are used to does not have a major impact on fuel usage. If you think about it for modern countries your talking about a real change of maybe 3-4% in the economy from slightly positive to slightly negative. Fuel usage would be a % of this so say at worst 1% ?

So you would have to reach depression level economic slow downs to have a significant impact on oil. Put it this way to reduce overall oil demand by say 5% your probably talking a 20% reduction in economic activity. Note a lot of the economy is powered by electricity coal/NG so oil prices does not have a direct impact on the core economy. If you can find evidence that this is wrong please show me.

Now with that said shortages on the other hand especially chronic ones are a different ball game altogether and simple conservation probably won't solve those types of problems.

Memmel: IMO, in the short term you are correct.Gasoline use in the USA is an addiction, and addicts will always cut back on other expenses before cutting back on their drug of choice. Dramatically higher gas prices will be difficult for the other sectors reliant on consumer spending(i.e. WalMart).
You overestimate the importance of Walmart for the US economy. Walmart does not produce ANYTHING. They simply buy in China and sell in the US. You could replace them with an online  Chinese import/export company and get the same effect... cheaper.
Infinite: I should have mentioned Ford and GM.
Ford and GM are both great examples of companies you don't want to work for... other's would be United and Enron. The problem with either of these is that management only cares about short term success to satisfy stock owners and has absolutely no long term strategy. The US does not need any more of these companies. Let them die... and make room for new players with better management. I do not care if they are called Toyota and Honda as long as they employ people, pay taxes and don't need to be bailed out every other decade.  
But were those orders specified as light crude? If so that 'might' explain the allocations.
As someone who does urban planning for a living, first as a consultant, now for a municipality, I've been pondering what, if anything, the planning profession needs to be thinking about with regards to a peak in oil production. It appears that the take home message here, at least with regards to transportation and land use, is "nothing." Fuel efficiency is sufficient to take care of the liquid fuels problem, and road building and land use policy can continue under a "business as usual" regime.

Whew, that was easy.

I still wonder if prolonged and worsening fuel shortages will, over time, change the value map of real estate. I would anticipate that given high enough fuel prices, locations proximate to both jobs and goods and services will start to increase in value vis a vis locations that require longer travel distances to reach same. I wonder, however, how high gas prices would have to get for this to be the case, as they represent only one component of the cost of using an automobile for travel.

Regardless, my city is seeing a growing number of development applications involving mixed-use formats, intensification of older centers (not just the downtown, but around malls) and infill in established neighborhoods, all of which increase proximity. The market is already trending to some extent in this direction, even with current low prices.

Fuel efficiency is sufficient to take care of the liquid fuels problem, and road building and land use policy can continue under a "business as usual" regime.

I suggest that you revisit this conclusion one year from now.  

IMO, the decline in net oil exports is going to hit so hard and so fast that we will have no choice but to abandon large swaths of Suburbia.  

Regardless, my city is seeing a growing number of development applications involving mixed-use formats, intensification of older centers (not just the downtown, but around malls) and infill in established neighborhoods, all of which increase proximity. The market is already trending to some extent in this direction, even with current low prices.

IMO, this will be virtually the only "growth" areas that we will see--especially along mass transit lines.  

This situation you just described would lead to an immediate recession, if not depression.  

There would then be a sharp decrease in the use of petroleum and a subsequent glut in supplies.  

IMO, this makes no sense - the peak/plateau/whatever you believe will happen will play out much slower than this.  

IMO, this makes no sense - the peak/plateau/whatever you believe will happen will play out much slower than this.

You are absolutely correct about aggregate world oil production, which I predict will show a net decline rate of about 2% per year going forward.

However, I think that you are absolutely wrong about net oil exports.  For example, Saudi Arabia's production is down by about 7% from 12/05 to 12/06, but I estimate that their exports are down by 13% from 12/05 to 12/06.  

Your "conventional wisdom" view is why, IMO, the net export crisis is going to hit so hard and so fast.  We simply assume a continued exponential increase in imports, while the mathematical models--correctly so far--are predicting rapid declines in net export capacity.  

I was roundly criticized in January for predicting that Saudi Arabia and Russia would join Norway in showing lower exports this year.  We can argue "why," but the Saudi and Russian governments have both now admitted to lower exports.

If your view's were not bad enough couple them with the expected decline in nat. gas over the next 5 years and I think you might have a nasty but valid point.

If you can believe the information about the looming nat. gas shortages (which is being reported by more than one source)and estimates are that we need to import 1.5x our current oil to make up the difference, we are in for a world of hurt.

SEATTLE-
Had 62 people in the hospitals who had carbon monoxide poisoning, trying to stay warm in the recient power outage.  Sadly, we may get Kunstlers die off easier than we think.

BTW currently in day 6 of power outage here in NW Oregon. Running generator 24 hrs a day keeping greenhouses warm...can you say expensive...

IMO, this makes no sense - the peak/plateau/whatever you believe will happen will play out much slower than this.
 
But we don't know what might happen after the peak.  We are just assuming that because the US for example has undergone a gentle descent after it peaked that this effect will apply to the world situation.  Forgetting that the US having been geopolitically and economically stable, and almost completely accessible to new drilling and further exploration up until now.  I fear the world scene will, within a short space of time, be anything but orderly to make for a long-term gentle decline.  Especially when you consider the knock-on effects that unsustainable economic practices and population growth is, or soon shall be, delivering to us, one after the other.

Yes but it will take time for all this to unwind. In a earlier post I mentioned the use of the SPR to calm markets etc.

So the first reaction is its a spike and we should see a small rise in exports as any excess capacity is brought online.

So I still think overall its just a price spike next year with a new floor price at 70-80. It just takes time for all this to unravel I'm guessing a year or two say 2008-2009.

And of course you have even more demand destruction in the third and now second world lowering usage. And you might get just a little bit of economizing hear in the US as we did during the last crisis.

I could bring in more factors but they all point to a price spike and drop next year with SHTF type stuff happening later. Two or three years is not a lot of time IMHO.

Looking at how our car fleet changes over time its pretty obvious we will be caught between a rock and a hard place well before we could adjust to peak oil.

How long a time?   3 years?   5 years?  a decade?    

None of those allow us enough time to make sufficient changes,  and the impacts will be be uneven for sure,  harder in poorer areas or more debt burdened areas.

IMO, it won't play out over 15 or 20 years.   And any of the other possibilities above are too fast for a soft landing.

========
It's all about population!


I agree I don't see how we have time now for the slow conversion Stuart is proposing. Its realistc.

On the same hand the world will not end tomorrow. Even if oil went to 150-200 a lot of people can still afford to drive and car pooling and public transportation can help those that can't. And of course fuel efficient cars would be purchased by those that can afford them. At the minimum you would see America approach Europe/Japan in efficiency.

The only thing I see ending is Americas crazy suburban life style and outdated work conditions i.e everyone doing 9-5.

So at least in America the big looser is the suburban lifestyle and the ponzi scheme supporting it will unravel.
For example Stuart is not considering the cost of roads under expensive oil conditions. Suburbia has a lot of hidden costs.

Now with all this said these changes would be occurring during the first five years of peak oil but I can't see how we will be changing fast enough to prevent repeated shocks to our country and the result creation of a slum class common throughout our world.

Now of course third-second world countries would suffer a lot more and political instability their is probably a bigger issue along with the creation of our own internal third world country.

Dammit, you mean loser, and looser is what Americans' pants will become from walking more.

Dyslexia and spell checker colliding sorry
Funny though :)
Oh I do stuff like that too. ..... a periodic mixup between the numbers 201 and 210 plagueing me lately.......!
"Even if oil went to 150-200 a lot of people can still afford to drive and car pooling and public transportation can help those that can't." This seems to imply that oil will get more expensive and we'll all just spend more for the same oil we buy now. The point is that there won't be sufficient oil per capita and that prices will rise till some people decide not to buy. Whatever the price rises to it will be high enough for some people to decide to do without.
WT,

I agree with your land export model.  However, I don't see a rapid abandonment of suburbia, only because people have to have someplace to live.  

Let's assume some people can no longer afford to drive and then lose their jobs.  (or they just lose their jobs).  Sometime in the near future (6-12 months), they lose their suburban home.  Most shelters are in the cities, so they head for the cities.  Now, the cities become home for large numbers of homeless former suburbanites.  Part of the growth of the cities has been their ability to "clean up" downtown, moving trash and homeless people off the streets so the wealthy could have a pleasant living experience.  What happens to that experience when it is spent stepping over the homeless?

Again, figuring that some people lose their suburban homes.  The banks or mortgage companies or individuals who own mortgage backed securities, now own the houses.  What are they going to do with them?  After accumulating huge numbers of houses, who will they sell them to and when do they stop gathering them in?  Do they write them down and accept lower payments?  I don't know.

Do the remaining suburbanites gather politically around homesteading relief to save the American dream?

Let's say the US cannot import as much oil as before and domestic production is falling?  How does the oil get allocated?  Yes, defense and policing get theirs.  But eventually, there is a market for what's left.  So the price rises and some folks don't get any.  Who loses out first?

In most cases, the poor with gas guzzlers get hit first.  The price rise eats into their existence until they have to drive less.  They don't have the resources to buy a prius, so they are screwed.  They also work physical jobs which cannot be relegated to telecommuting, so they have to go to work.  They give up their car and black-market taxi service begins, kind of underground car-pooling.  Some guy with a mini-van will stop by your block and you can get a ride to a location close to work.  Poor folks already use cabs, some legally and some not.  This helps reduce vehicle miles traveled per capita and fuel needed.

The folks in suburbia get hit too, just differently.  For some, the increase in fuel costs forces a reduction in miles traveled.  For some it doesn't reduce miles traveled, but reduces the discretionary funds available for flat-screen TVs, etc.  Again, for some, it puts them over the top and they lose their house.  

I wonder how the age of a suburb will matter.  Older houses cost more to heat and cool.  Older houses have older residents who, may be more apt to leave the large house since their kids are gone anyway.  On the other hand, older houses with older residents are already paid for and don't face peril from missed mortgage payments.

Let's assume that the suburbs collapse and everyone wants to move into renovated or new urban housing.  If they lose their shirts on their suburban home, where do they get the money to buy the urban home?  Builders don't have to build, they'll just lay off their workers.  

I think suburban growth is going to stop.  However, the only way people don't live in the suburbs is if we reduce the population or we build a ton of new housing.  I think our debt burden limits the latter.  

I agree suburban asset values will get hammered.  I just don't know where folks would go.

I think once the real estate/finance system reaches a certain point of financial failure the "rules" that lead to foreclosure will either be re-written (by the industry or government) or outright ignored.  Too many, way too many people have mortgages for everybody to be forcably evicted and given severe enough economic crisis this would entail, law enforcement (if they can manage to be paid) priorities may well be elsewhere.  Don't forget defaulting mortgage holders can skip on their property tax obligations while falling housing values will lower assessments in the first places.  WHere will the revenue for our local authorities come from?

Sure, foreclosures and homelessness will rise, even sky rocket initially.  But isn't the system itself vulnerable to failure as to eventually preclude the possibility of widespread eviction/foreclosures carried out with cooperation of a fully functioning local government?  I've got to think there is a break point in there somewhere.  Just dont know what level it is.

If foreclosures rates get high enough, mortgage holders might decide to turn the occupants into renters.  Then at least they (the lenders) would have some cash coming in and also keep their house off a flooded market. The banks would be mining sentiment too, since people might want to stay on in a house when they would really be better off in some other arrangement.
A suburbian has two choices: abandon his suburbian home or abandon his suburbian car. The former will set him back $200,000, the latter only $20,000. What do you think they will do?

They will buy a Prius, of course. There will be no recession, only a dying breed of they-never-learn managers at Ford and GM and record sales at Honda and Toyota.

I am curious as to why people wouldn't move closer to work. Avoid the high fuel costs. Avoid the congestion. etc.
Because they'd rather have a bigger house in a better school district.
It is very hard to find something suitable AND affordable in a good neighbourhood around here that is close to anything. Most people don't have a choice. We personally made a compromise... location for space.
You realize this same argument applies to buying an SUV?  Why buy a big SUV when you can choose something cheaper that's also cheaper to operate?  Because they want something bigger with higher status and better crash protection.  

I think the general rule would be more like, "people want the roomiest, highest status, best (perceived) quality product they can afford."  I don't think we can leave out the "they can afford" part of the rule.

Yes, people still believe in the better school district myth. The factors which most effect student performance are the education level of the parents and the size of the school. The smaller the school the better the students do.
A school district is considered better only because it has fewer black kids. It is just pure racism that makes people look for "better" schools.

Who says they are not doing this already?

I know several people, including myself which have purposefully selected a home that is closer to work.  A lot of them site the steady rise of gas prices as being a motivator along with the frustration of losing 2 extra hours of their day doing a long commute.

Its anecdoctal, but I think changes are begininning to occur, and I think another summer of some price discomfort will push more change.  A slow squeeze I think ultimately may be the best outcome in providing motivation for change, as well as providing time for change.

Probably for many people there is no such thing as closer to work. I live close to a major airport because I travel a lot on business. I don't have an office (home office). For myself, I'll probably substitute internet conferencing for face time.

Other people have two jobs or they change jobs frequently.

I still wonder if prolonged and worsening fuel shortages will, over time, change the value map of real estate. I would anticipate that given high enough fuel prices, locations proximate to both jobs and goods and services will start to increase in value vis a vis locations that require longer travel distances to reach same.
I think that's right, and I think that's already happened to some limited degree. The rural real-estate markets that I am familiar with have slowed much faster/more than urban markets in the last year. I think the far exurbs and rural areas, which are totally dependent on large amounts of gasoline powered VMT, will suffer the most and the worst in the future too. Obviously, there's no way that fuel economy will increase 4%/year without gas prices being sustained enough and high enough to cause people pain and change their mind about what kind of car they want to drive. That will have other effects also, including on where people live, but that will happen more slowly.

In general, I think the planning/land-use stuff matters over a long timeframe. There's not much you guys can do to make a difference over a decade or two, but you are critical over the century timescale. The land-use approach of the last 50 years is going to cause us problems for a very long time.

I'm glad to hear you say that, as I was getting the impression from the post that land use and VMT don't matter.

With regards to changing land use, here's some speculation as to how it might occur quicker than you think. The U.S. is experiencing significant population growth, and much of that is occurring in sunbelt cities like mine, which is adding about 5,500 units and 12,000 people per year, mostly in a suburban pattern. Even if no existing housing is abandoned, where these new people end up could have a dramatic impact in densifying established neighborhoods and corridors.

If the value map does change significantly, all manner of passed over sites will start to look attractive. One large source of underutilized land can be found in existing shopping strips with oversized parking fields and generally inefficient layouts. As income gets diverted from retail shopping to energy costs, many of these may become fully or partially abandoned. Infill development on these lands would put additional density not only close to shopping and jobs, but also along corridors that one day might see increased transit (I know, I read the earlier posts, but I think peok oil will bring at least some increased demand for transit).

Will people move into multifamily units in redeveloped shopping malls and strips? In fact, its already happening. I predict in many parts of the country, the barrier will be regulatory, not market-derived, as people cling to existing development patterns. Hopefully that obstacle will fade away when the seriousness of the situation becomes apparent.

One group that is dealing with land use  ......

http://www.vividpicture.net/documents/sustainable_food_system.html

Basically when your looking at building a 10+ story tower for apartments you have plenty of land that can be redeveloped. Considering the density of most American cities 10 plus acre plots within a few miles of downtown are numerous and can be developed.

If your talking about putting up 50 story towers then basically anywhere outside the heart of the largest cities is viable for redevelopment.

In all its just a matter of when it becomes economically viable. Once it does I see no reason that the value of our current properties and suburbia won't fall. It happened after WWII and it can happen again. Once you have livable cities in the US I think the tide will turn quite rapidly.

Also consider that the recent housing boom coupled with the retirement of the baby boomers will basically wipe-out demand for suburban housing for the next 10 years at least if not forever.

A lot of people who bought homes over the last 5 years will probably loose them over the next several years. A lot of baby boomers will opt to move out of their old suburban house in exchange for condos which will be cheap because of the initial glut and they can still make a decent profit of their home. So you have a influx of renters and condo buyers that will be interested in living close to work. The condo won't go for anywhere near the price that they are at now but their will be demand once the price drops back down to something reasonable.

Remember you just need enough to reach critical density once the number of people living in town grows large enough you will get back your shops/restaurants etc causing more growth.

If it goes like I think it will with suburban home prices falling every year and growth moving towards the cities powered by people that are not in the housing market either because they are retired or lost a home it will continue as apartments/condos actually become more desirable because of oil shocks.

So once you add the above with oil price issues you have a suburban areas never recovering and thus no reason to try and maintain them. Remember suburban regions are very sensitive to what I call loss of face. Once you get enough empty homes and rentals that are not maintained value drops like a rock resulting in further flight into renewed downtown areas.

Finally we have to build something in the US and it looks like suburban houses won't be viable and it is possible to build nice high density apartments/condos at reasonable prices so I think the builders will build them. They basically have to build something and as long is their is demand high rise condos/apartments are simply cheaper to build and thus cheaper to buy.

"If your talking about putting up 50 story towers then basically anywhere outside the heart of the largest cities is viable for redevelopment."

This is the same idea that Le Corbusier proposed in 1922-25. He called it "The Radiant City" and it became known as the "towers in the park" model.

Just one thing -- Le Corbusier didn't anticipate the requirements of mass automobile ownership. So "towers in the park" became "towers in the parking lot" connected by large freeways -- see Houston, etc.

Even in a car-free society, isolated towers incur prohibitive costs of stringing infrastructure out to distant locations -- water, sewer, gas & electric, roadways -- and the prohibitive costs of servicing that sprawling infrastructure.


Singapore has this model they have a lot of parks and open spaces in the city.  Also a lot of European cities contain parks.  As far as infrastructure goes. I'd assume the main thing would be rail. Cars would be controlled via massive fees for limited parking along with huge use taxes esp city entrance fees etc.

Quality of life is vastly improved in the city with the addition of some green space. Next the assumption is these towers would not be on the edge of the city but say within 5 miles of the city center. That's a lot of land but you still can have density high enough to keep supporting services cost low. I think one thing that has prevented a lot of Americans from moving into the city is the lack of nice parks in American cities even if its private parks.  And they don't have to be large.

In any case the isolated towers can themselves form part of mini cities as we see happening in Japan for example.

A huge amount of literature exists on how to make dense cities that are both easy to walk pleasant and beautiful.

Singapore is really unpleasant though: the bits I've seen.

Huge highways, not pedestrian friendly at all.

I've only been once, but I walked from my sister's apartment to shops, market, parks, etc.  It was a short taxi hop downtown, and then we walked everywhere again.

In fact, aren't walking tours very popular?

I have spent a lot of time in Singapore for work and I did not find it so unpleasant. It is a bee-hive society partly because of the Confucian philosophical roots, but carfree living is quite practical and there are many ped-friendly districts.
The consumeristic focus of Singaporean society is a bit disturbing, but the quality of life is suprisingly high, given the extreme population density
Which part have you been to? I am a pedestrian and I found Singaport to be one of the easiest cities to get around. Certainly way better than any place I have been to in the US where crossing a highway often requires a one or two mile walk just to get to the next pedestrian bridge.
In Singapore, we have around 11+ private cars per 100 people. I believe New York is around 18+ and the average for America is around 50.

The simple reason being government taxes and quota. For example, a Honda Civic Hybrid costs slightly more than USD50,000 and a Toyota Prius would cost USD55,000.

98 Octane gasoline costs around USD4.40 per gallon before loyalty discount.

If you drive through the congested roads at peak hours, you might have to pay up to USD6 per day.

But the taxi drivers won't allow a Durian in the car!  What do you do?
That's right. Durians aren't allowed in public transport in general.
You eat your fresh Durian at the market in the morning. Not only wouldn't I want that thing in my cab, I wouldn't want it in my apartment, either.

:-)

sounds like you haven't seen much.

within 10 minutes walk i can access 3 supermarkets, library, the church, shops, 2 out door markets, food places (macdonalds too), banks, post office. very pedestrian friendly but also high density living. point google earth. the resolution is sufficiently good to make out the high density places.

i would certainly love to have a house with a two car garage like i used to live while in the usa - cheap cars, cheap petrol, beautiful outdoors. but come crunch time i foresee an urban enviroment being a comparatively advantageous place to be in terms of transport cost and access to amenities.

to give you an idea. not many people own cars ( cars are around 3 times what you'd pay and petrol is probably double. not only that, you only have the right to drive the car you bought for 10 years, after that it goes to the scrap yard or has to be reexported out of the country). public transport by taxi, bus or subway is cheap by comparison to cars. round trip cost to work about $1.

finally its just a matter of adjusting to a different environment. i'm sure americans will be able to do that when the time comes. eg i've got a colleague from LA whose been here for 10 years and only takes public transport. he can't tolerate the commute by car.

I always thought La Ville Radieuse meant "The Radial City". Works either way, I guess.

Back at university, we got a kick out of the landing strips and helipads on top of the buildings.

Another problem is that while Corb's buildings were designed around natural light and ventilation, our blocks depend on mechanical ventilation and artificial light.

50 story buildings, or even 10 story buildings, don't work very well if there is only intermittent power supply. Elevators will not work, and ventilation may be a problem.

With the expected decline in natural gas, and the problems in importing it, we need to plan as if at least parts of the country will be seeing frequent power outages in the next few years.

Gloom and Doom... ahhhh....

Look... no large city will work at all with intermittent power supply. And no large city will ever have intermittent power supply. GW non withstanding we can build any number of coal fired power plants. The coal is there. But so are the sunlight and the wind. The choice is not between energy and no energy. It is between dirty energy and clean energy.

"Look... no large city will work at all with intermittent power supply." Actually, lots of large cities existed before the electricity use became common. Buildings were limited to walkups, which I guess were about three to five stories. Cities with natural advantages will prosper. Artificial cities which were built solely because we had the energy to sustain them won't. Cities that are next to large rivers could extract electricity from the water flow. San Francisco is looking at getting power from the tides flowing through the Golden Gate. Someone has probably already done the work but I'd guess the optimum is to have buildings up to about 5 to 10 stories high. This would give you high density with some use of electricity compensating for the use of power in a more dispersed city plan. In a way this is all moot. The interesting thing about peak oil is that it seems as though the combination of a slow decrease in production and a continued increase in demand will drive things to happen quickly. There won't be time (and energy) to rebuild our cities and towns and auto fleets. I have no idea how things will pan out but it will be interesting.
Let's not forget the energetic cost of constructing 50 story buildings.  Small towers (under 10, defin. under 6) are relatively easy to service but the tall ones?  You got to pump/haul everything up against gravity and that requires electricity.  Plus the embodied energy cost from cement and steel makes this a daunting challenge to get it off the ground (literally) in the first place.  

Barring a local surplus in construction and electrical energy sources, I don't see this a viable option, even if it dramatically reduces VMT

What energy cost? How much do you have to pump/haul up?

Let's do the math: 1 person weighing 200lbs has to be moved to the 50th floor. The potential energy is W=m*g*h=100kg*10m/s^2*150m=150kJ. You do that ten times a day, you need 1500kJ. 1kWh is 3600kJ, i.e. the elevator needs 0.4kWh/person/day. Electricity consumption in the US is a whopping 11000kWh/year/capita or 30kWh/day. In other words, the elevator to the 50th floor adds at best 1.3% to an inhabitants electricity consumption. You get similar numbers for pumping water.

On the other hand, an everage citizen living in a place with tall apartment buildings like in Singapore takes the bus or train to work, i.e. we save the gas for the car!

Pumping/hauling: I was refering to the daily requirements, which you got, plus all of the goods that need to be transported up.  On the whole, I agree with the assesment that a high rise dweller will utilize a smaller per capita amount of energy than Single Family dweller would BUT it still does not obviate the shortcomings of highrise living if insufficient amounts of electricity is available.  You can live (uncomfortably) in a house with no electricity. This is not the case with high rise living.  Solve the electricity problem and I'll agree with you completely.

The bigger problem I see is in their constrution.  Towers require significant quantities of steel and concrete.  Both are very energy intensive to manufacture and transport.  Given a severe enough shortage of transportation and manufacturing energy (oil and natural gas) we simply aren't going to be able to continue to manufacture huge amounts of both to build skyscrapers.

Small structures on the other hand will remain relatively easy to construct in comparison

Again... in order for your argument to work you need to force conditions which simply don't exist. Living in large cities is much more energy efficient than living on the plains. New Yorkers use half the electricity of people in CA, who use half the electricity of the average US citizen, who uses less than half the electricity of inhabitants of, I believe, Wyoming.

In other words: reality proves you wrong. Electricity use in the city is not the problem. And the solution to the mentioned blackouts in case of an energy emergency (which will not happen) would be simple: the federal government will turn off the lights in the countryside where it will not lead to riots etc. and keep them on in the city where any breakdown of infrastructure would be a major catastrophy. It is as simple as that...

By the way... if you come out to the West, I will show you all the empty roof space we have. We drive around for an hour and I will point out enough roof area to you to produce several GW peak... and close to the whole energy consumption of the place on average.

:-)

"Electricity use is not the problem"  No, its the generation of which I am concerned about.  Too many locations are dependent on the timely delivery of fossil fuels for combustion.  Losing a huge chunk of generation without adaquate replacement will not be solved by turning the lights out on the country side.  There simply isnt enough load that could be shed that way. Engaging in a massive construction of renewable energy sources, practical energy storage schemes and large scale conservation practices would alleviate my grid fears immensely.  But we are not doing that.

I'm a planner and have been involved in energy planning for some time (worked for utility, then local government).  The folks responsible for keeping the lights on that I talked to do not inspire confidence over the long haul absent a wholesale change in political priorities.

As for my construction related concerns, you havent addressed them.  How are we going to build these structures in the future?  The ones we have now, they represent energetic investments already paid for and as long as the lights stay on, a great way to minimize overall energy consumption (esp transportation consumption).  But going forward--I dont know if it will pencil out.

PlanNow

I suspect that after peak oil, we will see very few new units constructed. Instead, we will see more people moving together into existing housing stock, because of the high cost of heating and cooling space and the high cost of transportation. Some units that are in undesirable locations will be left vacant - or perhaps dismantled for replacement parts for other homes.

Once peak oil is known, I expect the world will change dramatically. The availability of loans for building apartments and for purchasing houses will disappear, because lenders will realize they have little chance of getting their money back. The monetary system as we know it may not continue, or there may be hyperinflation.

Governments will stop building new roads, and may need to cut back on the amount of roads that they can continue to maintain, because of the lack of  asphalt.

After the first year or two, I think declines in the amount of available fuel will be much larger than Stuart uses in his examples, for a lot of reasons. A few of these include

1 . Exporting countries will tend to satisfy their needs first, leaving less for export.

  1. Importing countries will probably have priority areas, including military, agriculture, and emergency services. Private autos will be down on the list.

  2. Natural gas appears to be reaching a crisis level at close to the same time. Lack of natural gas will put more pressure on oil supplies.

  3. Oil may not continue to be as fungible. Oil may be sold more though long-term arrangements. If there are monetary problems, exporters may demand payment in goods rather than money.

  4. EROEI is declining, so more oil/natural gas will be needed for the production of energy.
Excellent post.  
indeed.
I suspect that after peak oil, we will see very few new units constructed. Instead, we will see more people moving together into existing housing stock, because of the high cost of heating and cooling space and the high cost of transportation. Some units that are in undesirable locations will be left vacant - or perhaps dismantled for replacement parts for other homes.

This seems to imply that "after peak" prices will reach out of bounds, and not fall back as a result of (a) efficiency, (b) conservation, or (c) economic contraction.

From "cheap" to "too expensive" in one great leap?

I understand your sentiment.  But I think the possibility of a rapid jump and sustained high price is large for some, depending on the currency umbrella under which one is cowering.  And this in turn is tied to the potential for the greater marginal improvement in productivity that can be achieved in some jurisdictions vs others by consuming the marginal barrel of oil.

Take transportation.  China, it appears at the moment, is well situated to absorb an increasing proportion of total liquids production, and at a higher price than they are currently paying.  North America, on the other hand, appears only to have the conservation option open, especially as productivity seems set to fall in any case, as the quality of our energy mix declines. Are there efficiencies which we can achieve which would allow us to outstrip the loss of productivity implicit in a poorer energy mix?  Are these and or other efficiencies only go to be available to us?

With all its problems, our transportation system is very economically efficient. As for externalities, while we pay for congestion, we manage to share the cost of climate change. The marginal barrel of oil is not doing much to improve the transportation component of our labour market, of our production markets, our distribution markets or our consumption markets.  But additional oil can make huge contributions to the productivity of all these markets in China. It has been doing so ever since China adopted the market system. They are turning their oil imports into profits, while US imports, on a wide margin, are converted into debt.

Unable to put the marginal barrel of oil to work as productively as can occur in China (and elsewhere), we will not be able to compete on price. It's simply irrelevant how many dollars we can print. Real purchasing power has to be earned. So, forcibly we will need to conserve.  

It is far from evident that even the most aggressive gains in efficiency will allow us to increase our economic productivity.  I expect we will become less productive, per capita.  Done properly, it's an attractive option.

Yes. toilforoil gets it. When people talk about demand destruction taking place in poorer countries they mean poor based on the current values of currencies. But post-peak with the values reordered, or an oil-barter situation existing, things would look very different. It will all come down to productivity, which in turn depends on the natural advantages existing in different nations. The US can compete (just) with an infrastructure heavily reliant on oil and natural gas in the (still) cheap energy environment of today. What about 5 or 10 years from now? We may well see economic power switch from North America to South America, for instance.
You are both seeing "post peak" as "oil starved."  Or at least you need to be seriously oil starved to break through market feedback mechanisms that merely higher prices would bring.

No one with any strong grounding in oil production (and "large project") data has called an abrupt and steep drop.

The recurring theme is "undulating plateau" with later, consistent year-over-year declines coming some time post-peak.

As I am coming to understand it, there could be very different scenarios for Europe and North America, and it would probably be very useful to discuss any post peak consequences in terms of those possible scenarios.

Europe has grown into a large EU with better geographic access to oil and natural gas than North America. Its export markets have become less dependent on the US to the extent that Germany's exports amount to only 8.8% of total exports.  Europe also presents a significant growing market for China.  Even though Europe will remain subject to the usual manipulations by commodity exporting nations, there is good reason to believe adjustments can be made over the long term.

It may transpire that the economic block of "the old world" can very well go it alone.  It looks as if South America is positioning itself to go it alone as well.

Here in North America we talk of significantly rising prices in the oil market over the past few years.  But relative to the Euro, the increases have been fairly moderate.  That may not be a coincidence.

North America finds itself in a somewhat awkward position when compared to Europe.  The US current account along with significant other sectors of the economy is terribly out of balance.  While it still has as strong an export market as Europe, it is heavily weighted towards services as opposed to goods, and its imports are something on an order of magnitude greater relative to other major economies.

North America is facing a looming natural gas problem that doesn't appear to be getting sufficient focus.  A tipping point problem I'm sure.  The market for LNG has not been liberalized and probably will not be; the infrastructure for LNG will likely grow far too slowly to meet shortfalls; and the US only owns twelve ships.  In some sense, it isn't the natural gas that is stranded, it is North America.  North America could soon be living off the kindness of strangers.

These differences may combine to cause significant differences in the relative price of oil between Europe and North America.  Oil producers are clearly not going to give their oil away, we all can agree on that.  But oil may remain reasonably affordable in Euro terms while it becomes very dear in Dollar terms.  Economics and politics will determine how that plays out with oil and natural gas playing supporting the supporting role as "The Spoiler."

Between world wide peak oil, and North American peak debt, and peak natural gas, the undulating plateau period is likely have significantly different impacts on the two regions, particularly as it effects the relative affordability, and even access to, fossil fuels.

Could it be that life could turn out to be like a giant game of Monopoly and North America, in spite of its recent significant lead, could find itself out of the game?

Very interesting.  This is the kind of analysis I appreciate.  As a note to Airdale, a strategic "may" or "if" makes all the difference.

We are trading scenarios, and possible worlds, without knowing which one of them (if any we name!) will ever shake out.

Returning to your post ... I think we are waiting for the shoe to drop.  We want to know what the response will be if/when an actual oil or gas shortage becomes apparent.

National Geographic reminded me that 1967's gas prices adjust to $2.00/gal in 2005 dollars.

We haven't really hit the break point.  We are trading these scenarios based on indirect signals.  This is inductive reasoning, and often only weak induction at that.


I definitly agree with you that the effects of Peak Oil can not be evaluated continent by continent, or even country by country.  It's my opinion that the globalization of the world markets will peak with peak oil, at which point we will begin a long slow shift back to regional and even local scales of economy.

I personally don't buy into the theory of the AMERO.  If anything I think there will be a fractalization of the current large countries by geographical regions.  Certainly if the value of the federal dollar weakens considerably I expect the individual states to become a lot more self governing.

 

For someone who is from Europe it is absolutely impossible to understand your whinning. The US always had and will continue to have the far superior geological and geopolitical boundary conditions. You have more of everything, yet you are the ones who think they will be left out in the cold.

Let me tell you something: start using what you have efficiently and you can kick European and Chinese ass. Keep wasting like in the past and you will be left in the dust like every other egotist mirred in his self-pity.

I'm not quite sure who you are addressing your comment to as I don't seem to be able to detect any whinning.  There are some statements of differences, challenges and possibilities; all of which I may have wrong.  You haven't convinced me of that though.

However, I agree with your observation that resources have been wasted or used inefficiently.

For what is worth, I'm from a nation that is a net energy exporter, but I imagine we will continue to sink or swim with the US.  I can't imagine us pulling the plug on them any time soon.

I happen to be from Europe and I have chosen to live in the US. I think that the US is the main cause of its own problems and that is a very sad state of affairs which gets me very upset. I apologize for the language. My anger shows.

I think I got mostly upset about the sentence:

"Europe has grown into a large EU with better geographic access to oil and natural gas than North America."

The growth of the EU is hardly a plus. It has become a lot less managable and most of the new EU countries will need two or three decades to get up to average EU level. Few of them have essential geological resources and most of them come with vast unemployed labor forces who are entering the "wealthy labor markets" of the western states, thus creating a lot of social tensions. As we all know, the gas and oil reserves in Russia are not only in an economically but also politically far from stable region. Renewable resources in the Southwest of the US outgun the EU by an order of magnitude, yet go completely wasted.

If I had to make a more comparative statement, the US and the EU are like two families building a house. The US builds this huge mansion with many rooms and enormous pomp but without an architect. Many of the edges are rough and unrefined, other rooms are full with treasures but few of them are being used properly or diplayed in a tasteful fashion. In the EU there are many architects at work who are trying to build a much more refined, elegant and functional place. A place where everybody can feel at home and be proud of the premises. The lot the EU is buidling on is much smaller and it needs to take care of more inhabitants. It also has a much smaller loan from the bank than the US. Now, both are looking across the fence to the other side and both are jealous. The EU has a lot to be jealous about, the size of the lot, that quarry the stones come from etc.. The US is keenly aware that its neighbour has the better architects and contractors. The response to that is, IMHO, not always graceous. That is true for either side.

I would like the US to build a really solid house for itself. One that is a little bit more refined, like the one in Europe. Maybe PO will help us to get to such a mindset... who knows?
 

The point about labour force migration is far more true of the US.

Even skipping the 20 million or so Mexicans (10 million legal, 10 million illegal) the whole key to the US economy is that the labour force can move around in search of better opportunities.

Read 'The Grapes of Wrath' by John Steinbeck if you think that hasn't caused social tensions in the past.  Or any right wing shock jock on the Mexican immigration question now.

Europe is nowhere near this ideal, which is one of the reasons why convergence will take so long.

The trouble is: the US is based on plentiful cheap labor and unemployment is very low. Such a thing does not exist in the EU and unemployment is generally very high. Apples and Oranges.

Right wingers always play the immigration and hate card. Go to Europe if you want to see how it is really done. Compared to that the US is harmless.

I agree that the EU is nowhere nearly as well integrated as the US. It probably never will be. It also does not have to be. The EU is not meant to be a clone of the US. The sooner Americans understand that, the sooner they can develop working diplomatic relations with the EU, again. Same for Asia... China is not a capimmunist clone of the US. Never will be... they have a 3000+ year administrative history over there. They culturally just laugh about a lot of things going on in the US.

Actually I see it as the other way around.

Europe has 'gas' but has to compete with expanding economies and populations in Russia, North Africa and China for that gas.

Europe has little or no oil.

Europe is clearly a much more energy efficient society than the US, but therefore the US can make big savings relatively easily, whereas for Europe it is a long, slow grind.

The US has access to Canadian oil sands.  There is gas in the Arctic and the US has more than abundant coal (which is a global warming problem of very serious dimension).

We have good public transport, but our goods and freight move by road whereas US long distance transport is often by rail.  We are very dependent on short and medium haul airlines for communication.

Our economies are full of protected and subsidised niches, one reason why unemployment is so high (if it's hard to fire anyone, it is hard to hire them).  And we have serious demographic problems: pensions are becoming an insuperable burden.

We have far more barriers to the movement of people to the jobs.  If part of the USA is booming, people will move there to work.  In Europe, we actually legally restrict that right of movement (ask any Bulgarian or Romanian!).

North America could soon be living off the kindness of strangers.

When exports dry up, currency strength and logisital advantages aren't going to mean much. Thus in the medium term I think Europe is in a weaker position.

Internally, Europe in is in a far worse position than North America when it comes to fossil energy reserves. See this comment here. I know that chart included with it has been presented here before. North America also has far greater potential for wind and solar production.

There are clear qualitative differences, but despite America's poor suburban infrastructure I think I'd rather be here than in Europe when things get bad. We can cut consumption dramatically and live poorly off our remaining fossil supplies. Europe, on the other hand, will have to live hand to mouth off of Russia and Central Asia's fossil energy reserves. The natural gas situation in north America can be handled by wearing heavier clothes and using electric heaters, dryers and stoves - essentially moving the NG burden to coal and a bit of nuclear.

Assuming oil supply is constrained to 85 million barrels of oil per day, (or any number you choose), the point is not who can live without the 85th million barrel of oil, but who can use it most productively.  That economy will get it.

Non-market action to obtain the barrel will make it disappear the next day.

I believe that my co-citizen, John McFadden, is arguing convincingly that Europe is positioned to use the marginal barrel more productively than the US. I concur and also believe that China is better positioned than both.

The US should be in a better comparative position to conserve, but effective conservation (which I define here as that which is most beneficial from an economic perspective) requires public investment. A lot of public investment.

Unfortunately for the US, and for those of us in Canada with the US anchor rope wound around our feet, public investment in effective conservation is playing second fiddle while Iraq burns.  Even more unfortunately the US cannot now let go of Iraq because the game has become 'double or nothing'.  Leave and the civil war could spill into the oilfields exacerbating the trend revealed by the export land model.  Should have never kicked the tar baby.  

Oh well, as the US elite fulfills its blood lust in Mesopotamia, the people of meso america are able to enjoy a period of respite.

Assuming oil supply is constrained to 85 million barrels of oil per day, (or any number you choose), the point is not who can live without the 85th million barrel of oil, but who can use it most productively.  That economy will get it.

This will only be true if oil remains a fungible commodity, a questionable proposition once the world is conscious of the implications of peak oil. I have no doubt that those who control and sell the oil will follow the principle you have outlined, but when, for example, poor people in Russia have their natural gas turned off because the people of Europe are willing to pay more money for the gas they are not going to sit idly by while they freeze to death. They will revolt, destroy energy infrastructure, and/or engage in political revolution to install leaders who will keep their fossil fuel production domestic. Once that activity is underway around the world, oil will cease to be a commodity with control of distribution largely shifting to governments. Because of this likely friction we're in for a long age of extremely repressive governments throughout most of the world, I think. I also think the chaos will prevent the world economy from functioning in the fluid manner we have been accustomed to since post WW2 anyway irregardless of the energy situation.

Unfortunately for the US, and for those of us in Canada with the US anchor rope wound around our feet, public investment in effective conservation is playing second fiddle while Iraq burns.

Yes, poor Canada, why won't someone play a small violin for our horrible plight. Canada suffers from the same suburban sprawl and mass transit underinvestment as America and Canadians use as much gasoline per capita as Americans. Also, to hell with the Kyoto protocols, there is money to be made in them there tar sands. If it will make you feel better you can brag about gay marriage rights and the low murder rate.

Canada is a good country.

It just happens to live next to a country full of nutters ;-).

I can't but agree. The US will be way better off in a future without hydrocarbons. Like PO, that too, follows from geological facts... it's all about location, location, location. And the US is the prime real estate of this planet...
My post has certainly provoked some very interesting discussion and I thank all of you for that.

I was particularly struck by InfinitePossibilities' analogy of the architects.  I've traveled extensively in the world and the first thing I notice is North America's lack of a sense of history or permanence.  Compared with Europe there is a real sense that nothing should last more than a few years, from roads to buildings to the products we use every day.  It really leaves the impression that we live in a "cardboard society."

The US and Canada are not as homogenious as might appear from afar.  Both Canada and the US were built on their transportation and communications systems, with Confederation, in particular, being entered into suspiciously and cautiously as the railroads extended east and west from Montreal.

Within Canada, during the time of confederation there was wide spread economic disparity and special tariffs, the Crows Nest Rate in particular, were put in place to protect relative advantages.  There are still more barriers to east/west trade than there are north/south trade.

Today, new economic disparities are showing up with the west having the upper hand.  Onario's historically powerful manufacturing base is weakening substantially, while the west's energy and access to the Pacific is providing renewed interest in going it alone.  Politically, Quebec's on again, off again interest in separation resulted in the recent Clarity Act.  Quebec can separate if a clear majority answer a clear question.  But the Clarity Act, while put in place for Quebec, holds equally for all Provinces.

The tar sands construction boom is taking a toll on Canada's labour market.  Mobility in Canada isn't what it might seem as trade certification is a Provincial jurisdiction.  An electrician licensed in Ontario is unqualified in Alberta.  The same holds true many professions.

The recent and relatively unknown TILMA agreement between British Columbia and Alberta breaks down inter-provincial barriers, amongst other things.  Ontario is hoping to gain manufacturing contracts in Alberta at the same time that Alberta is entering into contracts with China for heavy machine manufacturing.  Any concessions that Ontario or Quebec may gain will certainly require them to enter into TILMA, which will make it easier for Alberta to lure away skilled trades and professions.

Newfoundland and the Maritimes have never enjoyed the economic prosperity of Confederation and have been the recipients of transfer payments from other parts of Canada.  Newfoundland only joined Confederation in 1947, so Canada as a whole really is a very young country.

The US has similar regional inequities and barriers to mobility.  The historically coal rich Appalations are the poorest and ecologically devastated region in the US.  West Virginia has a literacy rate on par with third world nations.

Both countries have citizens who are equally comfortable in NYC or Los Angeles and own homes in both places, along with a summer home in Tuscany.  But the vast majority of citizens feel tied to the land and regional values. A young francophone nephew of mine was tempted by a tar sands salary of $125,000 for driving a truck, but his wife refused to leave her roots.  Paris is closer to Moscow than Montreal is to Athabasca.

There is slowly growing public awareness of the relatively secretive Security and Prosperity Pact, or North American Union, and the NAFTA superhighway.  Tied in with that, in ways that are not clear, is the Amero, a new North American currency first proposed by the Canadian somewhat right of center Fraser Institute.  The average North American citizen is virtually unaware of the SPP/NAU and the Amero, and what it means.  However, the window of opportunity for both the US and Canadian governments to unilaterally (eg without legislative review) impose the NAU closes in June, 2007.  

In terms of north/south mobility, ever since the enactment of NAFTA, I (holding the "right" kind of university degree) can go work indefinitely in the US simply by paying a $35 fee at the border crossing.  NAFTA resulted in a "brain drain" into the US from Canada.  I don't see the NAU being an invitation for the jobless and unskilled to flood into the US.  Given the size of the US economy, the NAU is likely to be somewhat asymetric.

So you can see, there is a great deal of political and economic uncertainty in North America and there are growing regional imbalances.  Canada, the US, and Mexico are in some very real sense, too large, nations joined together and held together by their transportation and communication systems.  They are pulled apart by distinct differences in economics and value systems.  To the extent that the average Canadian may wish to separate themselves from other Canadians, or distance themselves from the US, the Security and Prosperity Pact will certainly include provisions allowing the US to protect us from ourselves.

So while there are an infinite number of possibilities and future scenarios, and I'm not advocating or proposing any particular scenario, it isn't inconceivable that the nations of Canada, the US, and Mexico could splinter, perhaps violently, in the face of scarcity.  If it does, it will be our youthful lack of common purpose and permanence, and our complete lack of a meaningful sense of history and community, that will drive the process.  

These are interesting times.

Worth reading Robert Heinlein's 'Friday'.

Not a great novel, and certainly not one of his best, but his vision of a fragmented North America is interesting.

(someone told me he was born in Alberta, but I haven't been able to substantiate that)

Also, in a lighter vein, Connie Willis' 'Light Raid' which is about a war between East and West North America (fought with orbital lasers).

My gosh! Talk about confirmation bias! Pot. Kettle. Black!
See, I know the risk I'm taking with that bald statement.

That's the fun of it.

And of course all you have to do to disprove it is put forward "[someone] with any strong grounding in oil production (and 'large project') data has called an abrupt and steep drop."

Clipping one line from a Simmons power-point (as has been done) doesn't do it, in my view.  I'd like to see an honest and full estimate, for "abrupt" or "steep" drop.

Odograph writes: <You are both seeing "post peak" as "oil starved.">

Not at all.  When I write of a poorer energy mix, I am referring to the impending ongoing decline and impending descent in natural gas supply among other factors.

I believe that North America is poorly placed to compete for oil going forward and that our real oil purchasing power is declining in relation to other economies, and will decline even more rapidly as peak energy-available-to-the-non-energy-producing-economy plays out.

I can agree with all that, but it doesn't feel to me like enough to make prices do that one-time leap, to "too expensive" and support the idea that:

I suspect that after peak oil, we will see very few new units constructed. Instead, we will see more people moving together into existing housing stock, because of the high cost of heating and cooling space and the high cost of transportation. Some units that are in undesirable locations will be left vacant - or perhaps dismantled for replacement parts for other homes.

That was the bit to which I was originally responding.

Help.  I thought I followed a procedure suggested in another thread that would allow me to post a chart.  Obviously, I fail to understand the procedure.  Any advice is appreciated.

Like this?

Yes, thank-you.  How did you do it?   I believe the instructions I copied yesterday were from you. Where am I going wrong?
1. When you are looking at your picture in flickr, click the all sizes option above your picture (should have a little magnifying glass icon).

2. Now you can choose the size of the picture you want (small medium large etc).

3.
Scroll down a bit and you'll see
"To link to this photo on other websites you can either:"

4. Select and copy all the text from Box 2

5. in your post write
<img src="paste URL here">

6. paste the url from box two into the image tage (replace paste url here, but keep the quotes)

7. double check with the preview button

That should do it

OR

You can copy all the text from box 1 into your post. But you have to delete title="Photo Sharing" because TOD chokes on that.

Thanks again.  I think I'll find an old Drumbeat and practice there.  Do I choose a small size in order to make the chart fit the available width?

For anyone who is interested this chart is from here: http://www.vtpi.org/railcrit.pdf which is in itself a very worthwhile read for people involved in the public transit debate, and particularly discussions relating to rail transit vs other modes.  Lots of information and good argument.

This particular chart I believe provides partial support of my contention upthread that the US economy is not well situated to compete for the marginal barrel of oil.  Of course, more support could be provided by a similar picture of the return on investment for new roads in China, and elsewhere.  But I anticipate that the return on investment in roads in China today is close to that of the US around 1960. There are other uses for oil that require examination, but since oil is primarily a fuel for transportation, I think this chart provides an important hint.

There is already lots of new construction near city centers, primarily for the wealthy. I think that will continue for some time. The less-wealthy will continue to retrofit what is existing, which already happened to some extent during the early condominium craze, but I think we will crowd in tighter and tighter.

Back in the 80s, developers turned all sorts of aging, post-war apartment blocks into condos. Eventually these buildings needed serious repairs, and I read that condo owners found that their condo fees were approaching their mortgages. I could see that happening again as even shoddier new construction gets carved up for tiny flats and condos (read slums).

With Oil & Gas at only 21% of electrical generation, why would A/C costs rise substantially?

EROEI is going down for Oil & Gas, but not for other sources of electrical generation.

I suspect you are wrong on all your predictions.

:-)

Here in Florida, DOT and the Expressway Authority are having to cancel, delay or cut back on many projects already. All it takes is asphalt to go up a few dollars a ton and a major project could be killed.
"1 . Exporting countries will tend to satisfy their needs first, leaving less for export."

In addition to that, exporting countries may begin to see oil in the ground as a more valuable asset than dollars or euros or anything else.  At that point, their incentives will change completely--saving the stuff will be better than producing all-out, because it will appreciate faster than other assets.

Mark Folsom

Believe it or not, but McMansion builder Toll Brothers is now building condominiums in Manhattan (Union Square), Queens, Brooklyn, and Hoboken, NJ.  Robert Toll says he is simply following his customers, who are affluent baby boomers.

He (Toll) gave an interview in the Wall Street Journal last week.  Unfortunately, a paid subscription is required to follow the link, and I could not find a free source.

Mr. Toll Turns to Towers

People in the US are working longer and longer hours. And, the bloated McMansion model is no longer "hip" among younger people in the coastal cities. No one has the time to deal with mowing the lawn, keeping a big place clean, etc., or dealing with the servants one must hire to do these things. So, towers make a lot of sense. We've all read the accounts by people who grew up in NYC in the 1920s or so, how they could walk or hop a bus anywhere, even using cabs fairly often is still cheaper than owning maintaining a car there. All these really cool people like Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov and Leonard Berenstein came from there, and many want to bring their kids up where the museums and libraries and all that are a walk or a trolley away. AlanInBigEasy's dream.
you are basically saying that there IS intelligent life in this universe     maybe,........  but demographically not significant
Here in Toronto, 17000 new condos were sold this year, more than double the next city in NA (Miami at 7000). The first condo went up in 1972, now most of the listings are condo in the city.
Toronto is tricky though.

Coming down the 400 there is that sign 'welcome to Toronto, population 2.1 million'.  That number hasn't changed since the  early 1970s: the smaller average household size offsets the number of new units built.

The Greater Toronto Area has expanded hugely of course-- now as many as 6 million people I think.  But I would say the majority (but not the overwhelming majority) of the housing units built are single family dwellings.  That may be changing as land prices keep rising and there are mushrooming centres outside of the Metro (eg Vaughan).

So yes there are condos in downtown Toronto, (the previous big buildup of multiple unit housing was rental apartments from about 1948-62, those units are now in need of regeneration), but GTA remains predominantly a place of detached single family dwellings.

And it sprawls.  I would say 60 miles by 60 miles, at least.  

What I remember as open fields from the 70s, all the way to Barrie, have been muchly built over.

Valuethinker: I'm at Yonge and St. Clair so I tend to think of TO as the city from the lake to maybe Sheppard, but you are correct-even with all the condos going up in the core this place is a sprawling mess. I think the 401 has 16 lanes at one point (including the collectors)which might be a record. It is wild to drive on that road at 3 a.m and wonder where all these cars are going.
401 I think gets to 22 lanes including collectors at one point: it was the widest highway in North America (or said to be).

The City, my man, ends at Lawrence Avenue (or rather just before Hog's Hollow)-- beyond that is North York, which is Mel Lastman, suburban dream land!  Etobicoke, Scarberia, North York-- phaughh, suburbs ;-).

In places like Post Road, they actually have a minimum lot size to keep the riff-raff from building $1million homes, which would cheapen a neighbourhood of $5million homes.  Let  them live in Rosedale, I say.

I grew up in a quadrangle bounded by Bathurst, Bayview, Lawrence and the Lakeshore-- for the first 26 years of my life, I never spent more than 2 weeks at a time outside of it.

Seriously though, although I hated Harris for a lot of reasons, the abolition of the burough governments had a point, which was that Toronto is now about Metro-not-Metro, not about Scarborough arguing with York re transport funds.

The Yonge-Sheppard corridor is really depressing.  They have built the condos, but somehow the area just has no sense of life.

I think the really big change in New York is the Crime Bust.

Why it took place is the subject of some discussion (1) but the effect has been to lead to a recolonisation of New York by the middle classes.  Which has then led to their being driven out by the astronomical housing prices (and the poor quality of the schools, for those of family-building age).

(1)

Theories abound, depending on your left/ right wingedness of views:

  • legalisation of abortion leading to a fall in the number of 18 year olds from the 'most vulnerable' (to criminality) categories (Stephen Levitt 'Freakonomics')

  • abolition of lead containing petrol leading to a decline in attention deficit disorder and a rise in IQ amongst children

  • 'hard core' policing methods such as zero tolerance, increase in incarceration rates etc.

  • turfing the homeless off the island of Manhattan eg by closing the welfare hotels

  • fall in the number of 18 year olds (the biggest committers of street crime)

  • the crack epidemic burning itself out

Whilst I think the Levitt thesis (and the leaded petrol one) may have a lot of explanatory power, particularly when looking at the US as a whole, in the case of New York I think we have to credit the big increase in numbers of police on the street (begun under Mayor Dinkins) and the rigorous emphasis on reducing crime statistics, block by block, using preventative policing (especially eg arresting transit fare evaders, who often turned out to have concealed  weapons and/or to be on the way to commit other crimes-- a form of self selection), using the COMPSTAT database and new police management tools (Police Chief William Bratton, and Mayor Rudi Giuliani).

To some extent Bratton invented it, and Giuliani took the credit, but actually making the police police (rather than sitting in cars or in the office filling out reports) (2) and then allowing them to make arrests, and putting the perpetrators behind bars (so there was a real cost to a potential perp), seems to me to have been a huge factor in cleaning up NYC.

(2) a GE axiom of management.  That which you can measure, and you do measure, and hold people accountable for, they will address and seek to do.


How hardened is your town/cities economy against peak oil.

For example you can figure that cities along the Mississippi drainage will probably do okay since they would have barge traffic and of course its all fertile farmland. The same for cities with good ports. World trade is not going to come to a standstill overnight.

Otherwise I think we have a lot of cities in America at least that may not make economic sense in a post peak world.

For example Tulsa Ok sure still navigable. Wichita Kansas  ?
Maybe not. Along with a lot of cities west of the Mississippi.

You can assume that cities in fertile river valleys with navigable rivers will continue along with any port cities but once you move past these its debatable.

Note this is important once you go with high density housing since it makes a lot more sense to invest in infrastructure for a city of 3-6 million than one of a few hundred thousand or for many US cities less.

For rounding sake assume a dense Asian style city with a population of 10 million. This would mean 30 cities for the US at 5 million its 60 cities.

Thus once automobiles are not viable and your living in and apartment it makes sense for most people to move into the largest cities. This is the pattern throughout the world outside of the US.

I'd assume that we will at some point simply abandon the car and small towns and cities and move to these new metroplexes as they expand their rail/trolley/subway system.

I think once the demand exists this conversion could be quite rapid.

But you also need to think exactly about "How hardened is your town/cities economy" and what would "make economic sense in a post peak world."  What would all those urban millions do for a living once the real-estate-agent, tanning-salon-manager, and financial-advisor type jobs dry up?  Those who claim that the trend would be to the smaller cities base their claim on the idea that an agricultural economy would need an urban support infrastructure that is relatively local.
I would think that for a rural person who commutes, a 100 mpg vehicle and possibly carpooling with a neighbor would more than offset a doubling or even tripling in gasoline prices. What will probably be the death of the trend toward exurbia will be actual shortages of gasoline. I suspect that rural gas stations will be the first to have such shortages.

It is one thing to cringe at $5 or $6/gal gasoline and another thing entirely to try doing without.

Well... one thing you will be able to do 20 years from now when gas will be getting significantly less is to buy a plug-in hybrid and put solar panels on your roof. That will get you gas milage of at least 200mpg commuting alone and 400mpg commuting with a friend.

Actually... you could do that right now... if you really wanted to.

The rural real-estate markets that I am familiar with have slowed much faster/more than urban markets in the last year.

The problem with that argument is, if you think about the place in the US which is most unsuitable for regular living in a peak-oil world, it is Hawaii, and Hawaii's real estate has gone bonkers since 2002 (even as it languished during the cheap-oil 1990s). It has thus far exhibited no relationship whatsoever to the oil price.

The fact that outlying areas ("exurbs") are selling off now ahead of central areas is more easily explained by the general observation that when a housing bubble pops, the least desirable areas sell off first.

It will be some years still before oil prices seriously impact residential real estate in a way that can be distinguished from the general trends expected when a real estate bubble pops.

Try including a climate change, food systems, and public health perspective too.

We really should be trying to cut our GHG emissions by ca. 90% over the next 30 years, and working on long-term sequestration too.

About a third of kids nowadays would be expected to get diabetes given the current diets and built environment. (Not that I expect current diets to remain stable). About half of adults are obese.  

How much more land is required to grow food without petrochemical inputs?  How long does it take to convert land from non-organic to organic farming methods?  How much more efficient is it to have that food come from nearby where people live?  

From a long-term, systems perpective, I don't think big cities are viable, though over the short-term they may have some economic advantages during a liquid fuels crisis.

Big cities existed long before fossil fuels, and they will exist long after. Cities fulfill too many human needs.
Certainly their form and function will shift under peak fuels, but Rome existed without 1 kilowatt or barrel of oil.
Rome was built based on an energy subsidy in the form of loot from imperial conquest, and collapsed when that input stopped flowing.
Hello PlanNow,

If the latest natgas analysis is true, and then added to rising gasoline prices: those locations hit hard by this combo of skyrocketing heating & electricity costs + transport costs will do more to change the real-estate value map faster than your city can probably adapt.

I am still amazed that when blackouts occur that gas-stations have to close.  Every city should legally mandate that gas-station pumps be designed so that human lever or pedaling action can still pump gasoline when the electricity goes down.  Every city planner or consultant should have this near the top of their priority list.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

Yes, but the key variable here is the type of housing unit, not its location. Smaller units and attached units are easier to heat and cool than large detached units. It may well be that this will do more to undermine the value of large single family houses than gas prices, and it will impact large in-town homes no less than suburban McMansions.

BTW, I just moved back south to an old bungalow after 9 years of apartment living in the Northeast. I have read alarming comments about energy use in hot climates, but so far my gas heating bill has been nearly twice my total electric bill during the peak month of a hot summer--and this has been a mild fall and winter. It apparently takes less energy to cool 95 degree air by 15 degrees than it does to warm 40 degree air by 30 degrees.

That all depends.

All in all, it's much easier to use insulation, solar heating, and waste heat from the numerous non-negotiable appliances to heat a building than to cool it.

There are several variables that determine the amount of energy an ideally designed building uses for climate control.

Scenario A: Room temperature is above daytime high
Superinsulate the house, seal all crevices, make doors multi-port, make windows triple-pane.  You have a kilowatt of heat in appliances and human body heat, you have sweaters, you can build solar thermal concentrators on your roof hooked up to radiators/baseboards/radiantfloors to bring the temperature to whatever you want it at.

Scenario B: Room temperature is between daytime high and below nighttime low
Layers is the key.  Ventillation at the right times and appropriate use of thermal mass can keep the house at any given temperature between high and low.

Scenario C: Room temperature is below nighttime low
You're screwed, energy-wise.  You can save a lot of energy by trapping nighttime air / cooling a thermal store and then using active cooling on top of that, or sweating it through.  If you have significant water resources and the air is dry, you can use evaporative cooling to great effect (see the Iranian windcatcher/qanat system).  You can minimize solar irradiation.  But you're relegated to the removal of kilowatts of waste heat using an active system, which will in itself require kilowatts of waste heat.

A seasonal thermal store (read: big insulated tank of water with pumps + heat exchangers both indoors and outdoors) is possible if you have a lot of land, in order to harvest heat in the summer and give it up in the winter, or harvest cold in the winter and give it up in the summer.

Meaning, you could have saved a lot of energy in your cold house that you couldn't have saved in your warm house.
Take a look at Air Source Heat Pumps.

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=airsrc_heat.pr_as_heat_pumps

http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12620

Ground Source Heat Pumps (Geo Exchange Heat Pumps) require expensive investments in drilling and pipe laying.

Air Source do not.  They don't work well in really cold temperatures.

Depending on the ratio of your gas costs to your power costs, an ASHP may be a really good idea.

Alan from Big Easy is your poster here with great expertise in this area.

Note this assumes you have already done everything you can to improve insulation!

Oh come off it - you're so green you wouldn't attach a very small generator to a GAS STATION?
Hello Squalish,

Not at all.  Some time ago, I had written about this topic before suggesting that gas-stations should form a fund to pool some money to store generators on trailers that could be moved around from station to station when blackouts occur.  Failing this, they should store some kind of human powered mechanism that could pump gas.

Whatever solution they prefer is acceptable to me as long as they have a solution.  When electricity and gasoline become scarce, like in a weather-induced blackout, the most inefficient thing to do is to have people driving around all over the place trying to find a functioning station, then queuing up for long periods of idling along in a very slowly moving long line.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az  Are Humans Smarter than YEast?

Every city should legally mandate that gas-station pumps be designed so that human lever or pedaling action can still pump gasoline when the electricity goes down.  

Sounds like a great opportunity to steal fuel:  cut power to a station at midnight, and pump away.

toto I suppose if people really had to, gas could be "dipped" out of the tank about a pint at a time, up out of the filler hole the tanker truck filled the tank through. I can just see it, dipping it out using a cutaway plastic Coke bottle on a string, fumes everywhere.....
there was a guy that went to a gas station, pulled an empty pop bottle out of the trash, went to all the pumps and "harvested" the few drops of gasoline from each hose nozzle,  went inside and robbed the station threatening to blow the place up with his low budget molitov cocktail

unfortunately, for him, he wasnt so ingenious with a getaway

In the seventies, my father's gas station [and a number of others in the area] lost 50+ gallons per incident [Dad probably got taken a couple of times] by a jerk with a cargo van, a fifty-five gallon drum and an inexpensive hand pump.  Drive the van over the fill hole.  Open a door in the floor boards of the van.  Open the fill hole to the undergroung tank [unlocked in those days at least.] Drop the end of the pump into the underground tank.  Pump.  Drive away.  A bit more technology than your Coke bottle scenarion, but hardly the work of a master criminal.  :<)
Was it this guy?

In Alabama, a man was arrested when his specially designed truck blew up while he was pumping gas into it from an underground storage tank.
"Regardless, my city is seeing a growing number of development applications involving mixed-use formats, intensification of older centers (not just the downtown, but around malls) and infill in established neighborhoods, all of which increase proximity. The market is already trending to some extent in this direction, even with current low prices."

I am seeing that too, and a number of market studies confirm a significant share of the current market -- perhaps around one-third -- is seeking that type of development. The demographers and analysts are forecasting that demand to increase simply due to existing trends. Peak oil, global warming and related cultural shifts will impact those trends, although no one can say exactly what scenario will happen. For more background info on this, see this post that summarizes many market studies and forecasts.

The tendency towards infill is not new in American history (nor is the tendency to sprawl).

Sprawl is driven by the availability of personal transport: hence the 'streetcar suburbs' pre 1945, and the automobile suburbs post 1945.

We have now reached the logical extremes:

  • 'ruburbs' where suburb and countryside blur (eg local towns, within commuting distance of urban megalopolises, that themselves become significant centres; suburban houses on 5 acre lots etc.)

  • 'Edge Cities' which are defined by big box stores, mcmansions, and the intersections of major highways rather than historic villages or towns.  Often the inhabitants live in planned, 'gated communities', a reversion to 19th century form.

First the people move out to the Edge City, then the office parks and the shopping follows.

I would say Edge Cities are really a 1980s and 1990s phenomena, so the Energy Crisis did not put paid to them.

As to infill, I suspect it has less to do with energy costs (cost per mile has not grown faster than incomes) than with congestion and other costs.  As a city grows bigger, the bits centrewards can become more valuable.

So the suburban strip mall becomes valuable in another usage.  The streetcar suburb begins to acquire 12 story office buildings.  The shopping mall, killed by the 'Big Box' standalone stores on a value-for-money basis, has to reinvent itself as a services-and-entertainment destination.

The big challenge is zoning.  Ed Gleaser at Harvard has shown that the US cities which have experienced population growth are those that don't put constraints on change of land use, and allow sprawl: think Phoenix, Dallas Metroplex, etc.

By contrast, older, coastal cities (NYC, Boston, Southern California) have imposed tough zoning laws to 'preserve' neighbourhoods.  The result has been housing prices rising much faster than incomes, and migration to the 'new cities' of the Southwest.

The strategic response of the 'old cities' has to be to increase density around the transport nodes.  Affordable condominiums may not be the American Dream, but they meet the lifestyles needs of many who either do not wish to, or cannot, afford single family dwellings (think retired people, divorces, young immigrant couples with limited or no savings, 20-somethings buying their first home whilst still carrying student debt, etc.).

http://www.mintomidtown.com/home/home.htm

is a Toronto example of same.  A 30 storey and a 50 storey building plonked down in a neighbourhood of 10 storey apartment buildings, 2 storey stores/ offices and single family dwellings: a typical 1920s suburban development.

Great post, thanks.
At some point price will goad people into carpooling.  This is not really a fate worse than death, though many think so, and has enormous potential to reduce the number of people on the road.  And, a follow on effect is that getting 10% off the road will reduce congestion, increasing energy use and reducing transit time.
An interesting post there Stuart - i was surprised to see the big change that fuel efficiency could have.

with regards to the temporary changes brought about by price hikes, could it be that people respond to price changes more than absolute price? (ie, would it be possible to plot change in price vs change in miles traveled? )

Andrew
--
the early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese

Yeah, that's the way the economists think about it. They generally define the elasticity which is the percentage change you get in Y (say VMT) as a result of a percentage change in Z (say gas prices). However, if you look at the VMT change graphs you can see that there is no simple relationship. Eg the 1973 quadrupling in price produced less change than the 1979 doubling.

I think the reality is that people are pretty non-linear and complex in the way they respond to stuff. The response is to a mixture of the change (sudden large changes inspire a stronger emotional response and thus inspire more action than gradual changes), the absolute level (if gas prices are high enough, some people just can't afford to do some things regardless of how they might feel about it), the history (the first price spike you might ignore, but it primes you to pay more attention to the issue and thus on the second one you take action), and perceptions of the meaning of the change (if you are convinced the changes are temporary, you are less likely to take action than if you believe them to be lasting). No simple quantitative formula is going to capture this very precisely (and any complex formula will have too many parameters to be of much use in prediction).

"Eg the 1973 quadrupling in price produced less change than the 1979 doubling."

Stuart, you have to allow for other factors, especially the recession that followed the latter price jump.

 Don't forget 20% interest rates in '80-'81. That 6.5% efficiency improvement is puzzling.
 Why does a commuter choose to commute in a vehicle 25 to 30 times their own weight? Because that was the road to maximum profits for Detroit and Big Oil.
 The biofuel initiative is an example of a policy success that could offset 3-5 mmbpd of crude w/w fairly quickly.
 If "personal vehicle" fuel taxes in the US,China and OPEC exporters were phased in to Euro levels, the effect on consumption would be breathtaking - but, many argue,less so than the political fallout.
 The alternative is a few more years of "transition 1" before the crisis managers are called in.
Gee... and I thought the biofuel initiative was mostly a farming subsidy and hardly made any impact on imports. See how stupid I am?

:-)

There were recessions associated with both oil shocks, and the oil shocks were, in my view, a significant cause of those recessions. So that's part of the means by which change was accomplished (in particular VMT and GDP dropped in concert).
Is there some hard economic data to support the assumption that it was the oil shocks that led to the recessions?

I was always looking for a QUANTITATIVE explanation for this statement. Living through both of these recessions it never struck me that the price of gas or energy in general was such a problem. In Europe the main concern was the price of labor. There were a lot of rather troublesome and economically very disruptive developments like strikes and unpaid shutdowns and not once did the parties, industry leaders and unions in my memory fret much about energy prices. They did fret a lot about working conditions, the 40 hour work week, insurance and retirement contributions. And my Dad always went to the gas station and filled her up right. Not once did we have to walk because the car had no gas.

So what is the evidence that a future sticker shock at the pump will lead to a recession?

InfinitePossibilities seems to fit your thinking quite well, however, InsanePositivism also comes to mind.
In other words... you do not have any real world data and you expect me to simply buy your religious beliefs?

Well... I don't.

:-)

Income elasticity vs. price elasticity.

Price elasticity is almost always negative.  Increase the price of gasoline, people will consume less.  Short term estimates are around 10% I believe (50% increase in the price of gasoline, 5% decrease in gasoline consumption).  Long term estimates range 0.30 to 0.5 ie 50% increase in the price of gasoline leads to a 15-25% decrease in gasoline consumption.

Whether gasoline consumption reduction is achieved by buying more efficient vehicles, moving closer to work, driving more economically etc. is unclear from the data.

Income elasticity is almost always positive.  So over time, GDP rises, and so does the amount of driving, and the consumption of gasoline.  This offsets increases in efficiency.

This is the problem with CAFE-type restrictions as opposed to price increases.  Cars become more efficient, so people find it affordable to live further away from work, and to drive more.

The real brake on VMT is congestion, as Stuart points out.  Traffic congestion grows more or less in line with GDP.

New roads tend not to reduce traffic congestion, because of a phenomenon called 'generated traffic'.  The existence of a new road, over the long term, increases the number of facilities and people who want to make use of that road.  If congestion drops, people will take more trips.

That doesn't mean a new road is always a bad idea (there is utility created in those new trips ie people are better off) but it does mean you can't solve traffic congestion problems just by building roads.

Valuethinker, you wrote: "The real brake on VMT is congestion, as Stuart points out.  Traffic congestion grows more or less in line with GDP."

I think you might rather have written: 'Assuming continuing growth in GDP, a real brake on VMT is increasing congestion.'  I say 'a' brake, because there are others.  Public policy can increase congestion by limiting the amount of new traffic capacity; it can also brake VMT by limiting parking (or raising its cost), introducing road pricing, etc.  But these all pale in shockvalue to a phenomenon that I anticipate: declining road capacity; i.e. closed lanes and roads.

The whole issue of Peak Oil is inseparable from the issues arising from declining energy quality (more coal, bio-fuels, degraded oil, less natural gas, and so on). In the center is the impact of declining quality on economic productivity. I think it is improbable that North America can overcome the downward pressure on productivity arising from declining energy quality, at the same as it experiences a declining quantity of transportation fuel.

Moreover, there is the problem of replacing deteriorating infrastructure, as well as those roads and bridges crumbling under the weight of nature's wrath.  

All of this is occurring in the context of high public debt and household exhaustion. The infrastructure deficit grows as taxpayers refuse to provide the taxes needed to overcome it.

I don't expect 100 mpg cars, electric cars, and the like, to be anything other than marginal efforts in response to rising transportation fuel costs.  Instead, I expect to see more people in each car and the slow and steady removal of road capacity. I also expect the cars to travel more slowly as they wend their way over rougher roads.

The economic logic of electrified and other other rail based transportation will impose itself.

I don't think public policy can do much about traffic congestion except to the extent that congestion charging and similar schemes are adopted.

You can open up choke points like bridges, but fundamentally traffic rises until the roads are jammed.

Agree that if GDP is not rising, then the issues are very different.

Colour me a 'moderate sceptic' re Peak Oil (but a strong believer in anthropogenic Global Warming).  So I don't expect to see the effects you describe for some time.  (although Oil is an exhaustible resource, therefore at some point it will exhaust).

I am belabouring the point, but...

The point is not just about peak oil (likely now or soon) or peak NA natural gas (past), but about the quality of the remaining energy and its eroei (two related but not identical attributes).

GW is the elephant in a house whose foundations are being consumed by termites.

The large increase in fuel efficiency after the Iranian Crisis can be explained almost exclusively by the introduction of CAFE standards.  If there is to be the kind of conservation suggested by Stuart in this excellent post, it will almost have to be by federal regulation.  I don't see any other way other than a really serious and permament supply shortfall that forces the change.

An interested sidelight to the CAFE requirements is that they were advocated on the basis of increased energy independence.  In a sense, that is correct, for we would be importing even more than we are now, but it is important to point out that we are importing more now than ever.

Stuart, I've enjoyed your recent posts, for they point to serious shortcomings to some of the alternatives such as increased public transportation.  The one thing that seems clear to me is that to fix this problem, we need to move private transportation off of oil-based fuel, and to another method, i.e. electricity, and work on improving that.  Any comments?

What about the fact that 15 years is needed to replace the entire fleet?

Efficiency gains will be slow at 4% since the vehicles already on the road are not going to get to be 4% more efficient every year by themselves.

Ain't it?

Yeah, I can see the fleet becomming 10 to 15% more efficient over 15 years, but 4% more efficient year after year?  Seems impossible.
I agree that sustained 4% improvements without the forced destruction of auto usage is extremely optimistic.  This forced destruction will likely occur and will occur because of the shrinkage of the american economy.

Another factor to think about.  During the first oil shock, the low mpg cars replaced were quite likely the older cars on the road.  The low mpg portion of our fleet is now composed of late model, expensive SUV's, which are much less likely to be replaced at the same rate as the low mpg cars of the past.

It's interesting to think about what assumptions people might have behind this kind of prediction.

When you see a shrinkage of the american economy is that based on a particular oil price (or timeframe)?

There a couple of (in my mind) very likely possibilities.  First is the looming monetary crisis.  There is a significant possibility of a crash of the US dollar.  This will create high inflation or hyperinflation in the US, crash the US (and likely the world) into a serious recession/depression, and wipe out the savings/income of a large portion of the US population.  I expect that will put a real damper in gasoline usage.

Another issue, related to the monetary issue, is what impact oil prices have on money supply and wealth in this country, compared to the 1970's.  During the first oil shocks, we were a net creditor nation, and we only imported about 25% of our oil.  This meant that most of the money spent on gasoline never left the country, and the money which did leave the country came back in the form of foreign purchases of american exports.  So, even though gas prices were high, I would argue that it had essentially zero impact on the finances of our country.

This situation now is much different.  Most of the money spent on oil immediately leaves the country.  A portion of that money stays outside the country in the form of foreign reserves.  The portion the does come back is likely in the form of purchases of goverment debt, corporate stock and assets of the United States.  I would argue that this money basically never trickles down back into the pockets of the average american, as it probably would have in the 1970s.

Our dependence on foreign oil results in a steady drain of money from lower and middle class class americans, and into the pockets of foreign governments, foreign countries and the wealthy class of this country.  The higher the price, the faster the drain.  The faster the drain, the faster our economy collapses from the bottom up.

Our dependence on foreign oil results in a steady drain of money from lower and middle class class americans, and into the pockets of foreign governments, foreign countries and the wealthy class of this country.

 Wow.  I've never heard it put quite that way before.  

I had same thoughts a couple of years or so ago back on my old blog prior to TOD, but I didn't say it nearly as well or as articulately as env atty just did. In fact, that's one of my primary motivations for doing TOD...people see peak oil as a conspiracy constructed for the benefit of big oil and other certain aspects of our economy--instead I think of peak oil as the ultimate in class bifurcation. The middle class, which has already been under pressure, will soon not exist as we have known it in our lifetimes, I fear. The word bourgeoisie will have a whole new frickin' meaning.
I get hung up when people use the word "will", as in:

This will create high inflation or hyperinflation in the US, crash the US (and likely the world) into a serious recession/depression, and wipe out the savings/income of a large portion of the US population.

No one has ever, in the history of man, been able to call what will happen to that degree (other than through pure blind luck).

An "articulate" but irrational prediction is still ... well I hope you see the problem.

If you read my comment, I said that inflation/hyperinflation would occur if the value of the dollar collapsed.  I am pretty confident in predicting that if the value of the dollar drops to 1% of its current value vs other currencies, we will see massive increases in prices in the United States.

I did not say, however, that we will have a collapse of the dollar.  I simply said that there was a probability of that happening.

You said:

There a couple of (in my mind) very likely possibilities.  First is the looming monetary crisis.  There is a significant possibility of a crash of the US dollar.  This will create high inflation or hyperinflation in the US, crash the US (and likely the world) into a serious recession/depression, and wipe out the savings/income of a large portion of the US population.  I expect that will put a real damper in gasoline usage.

Now, reading elsewhere on the Internets this morning I read:

Physicists, statisticians, computer scientists, economists, and many philosophers rely on the following standard ("Bayesian") approach to analyzing and modeling information:

  1. Identify a set of "possible worlds," i.e., self-consistent sets of answers to all relevant questions.
  2. Express the information in any situation as clues that can exclude some worlds from consideration.
  3. Assign a "reasonable" probability distribution over all these worlds.
  4. Calculate any desired expected value in any information situation by averaging over non-excluded worlds.

Did you do that?  Did you assign reasonable probabilities over all your possible worlds?

Because I have a bad feeling that a people here at TOD are simply picking outcomes that they find appealing (in their gloom) and feeding the group-reaction they generate.

have you considered applying for the job as the befuddled one's press secretary ?
I'm not evil enough ... but I realize that isn't saying much ;-/
Actually... physicists only rely on data measured in the real world. We don't speculate... we measure.

You are right, a lot of the talk on TOD belongs into the psychiatrist's office. It is people expressing their fears of the future and trying to deal with it in an irrational manner.

Unfortunately, PO has its bad name mostly because of these people.

As an old chemist, I think I can read between those lines.

(Theoreticians sometimes work beyond available measurement.)

It is one thing to extrapolate between pieces of information that do not fit into an old theory well and come up with a new theory and test it on reality and to discard reality altogether is a completely other.

There are plenty of examples of theoreticians seemingly pulling the rabbit out of the hat. But even I was very surprised to learn from science historians that in most cases the hat, the rabbit and the other utensils of the "trick" were very often around for decades... but nobody had a clue how to put them together. That is certainly true for much of physics.  And it never stops to give me great pleasure to discover that even the smartest of people only cook with water... they just cook much better than I do.

:-)

Hi IP,

 "It is people expressingtheir fears of the future and trying to deal with it in an irrational manner."

 Or, trying to deal with it in a rational manner, which some term "irrational".

 "Best hopes" for a New Year...

Because I have a bad feeling that a people here at TOD are simply picking outcomes that they find appealing (in their gloom) and feeding the group-reaction they generate.
I agree with this as to a lot of our commenters, and it's incredibly frustrating.
http://www.theupsideofdown.com/

The Upside of Down sets out a theory of the growth, crisis, and renewal of societies. Today's converging energy, environmental, and political-economic stresses could cause a breakdown of national and global order. Yet there are things we can do now to keep such a breakdown from being catastrophic. And some kinds of breakdown could even open up extraordinary opportunities for creative, bold reform of our societies, if we're prepared to exploit these opportunities when they arise.

Optimism is unwarranted for the US.  The path to a soft landing WITHOUT MAJOR EFFORTS requires a series of events that are unlikely to occur (a "miracle" comes to mind).

The chance that improved vehicle fuel economy will be enough without investments in Urban Rail, geothermal heat pumps, etc. suburbia continues as is, and we do not have to resort to the most effective short term oil savings (recession/depression) are in the 1% range IMO.

The path downward is quite unlikely to be smooth, consumer behavior is unlikely to be completely rational, the rate of decline is unknown (even if it is smooth), and there is VERY little elasticity in the system today.  (Germans, French and most Europeans have an alternative non-oil transportation system that they can easily switch to and it will take another 12 minutes or so to get to work.  Few Americans have a non-oil alternative, hence our low elasticity of demand).

I find your optimism unwarranted and "it's incredibly frustrating".

We face a series of unknowns but we can guess as to the range.  As an example, annual declines in global convential oil production will likely be between 1% & 9% (average over two decades).  World oil exports are likely to decline 1% to 5% faster than world oil production.

History suggests that that moderate oil supply interruptions of ~1 million b/day will occur every few years and larger ones every decade or so.

I concentrate my efforts on actions that CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE and not bemoaning the future.  But that does not mean I ignore the risks.  Perhaps all that I can do is turn a horrifying future into a merely terrible one.  That is worth doing !

Best Hopes for Active, Rational Planning,

Alan

FWIW, this "possible world" stuff is close to how I view our energy futures.

I don't believe we know enough to seriously exclude, or to seriously assign confidence,  to those worlds.

How would a dollar crash (compared to other currencies) impact our ability to purchase oil?

A key factor is our ability to provide things of value (currency or actual stuff) in return for oil, at global market prices.

Peak Oil could contribute as a cause to a dollar collapse.

But a dollar collapse could push back Peak Oil.

I think.

I've jumped into this late, but keep a look out for articles on the trade deficit.  We produce less and less that can be exchanged for oil!  So far, we have been able to exchange dollars because people can buy oil from other countries with dollars.  If nobody wants dollars just for the sake of having dollars, they won't want just dollars for oil, they'll want some manufactured goods, which all of the geniuses in the U.S. who have been blathering on about "post-industrial societies" have been telling us we don't need to make.
I agree completely.  The day is coming where the dollar will revert to its value determined by the output of the country.  The only output which has value is energy, or the products of energy (manufacturing, food, etc).

The new economy of America, which basically consists of the financial sector, healthcare, and service jobs, exists only because of massive influx of energy into the country from other countries.  This allows us to support a massive infrastructure/lifestyle that otherwise could not be supported.  Other countries only send us this excess energy because they have considered the US dollar to be of value equal to the energy/goods sent to us, and because there has been a global surplus of energy.  Once that stops, our GDP will drop to a value equivalent to our internal energy production, or about half of the current level.

Odograph, try not to get hung up on my use of the word will.  If you disagree with my premise, please let me know your thoughts/theories as to how the dollar can maintain its value when there is not an equivalent output of the most fundemental requirement for life, energy.

It just seems to me that things don't fall when (or because) we think they should.  I live in southern California, where friends have made real-estate bubble predictions for "this year" pretty much every year in my memory.

I could see the trouble building, and was amazed at how long it could go on.  Now we have had two corrections in that time, but neither one was the crash predicted (for the ongoing one, knock wood).

So it's like, who am I to know when a correction will be hard or soft, or what the landing will look like?  Can anyone tell me what the final percentage loss will be for southern California homes in the current downturn?

If no one can tell me that, why do they want to move on to grander questions, like the economic outcome for the entire world?

BTW, my "gut" and "no guarantees" prediction was that the real estate market would give back half of it's 3-year gains if this is mild, and it would give back half of it's 5-year gains if this is bad.   But who knows?  That was my gut talking.

I didn't leverage, or bet my future, on those two outcomes.

(I believe the market is deciding now if it is going to stay mild or go bad.)

The introduction to Robert Shiller's 'Irrational Exuberance' is instructive (SECOND edition, not first).  He tracks US housing prices since 1890.

There are some big surprises.  Like that housing prices rise by 0.8% pa (real)-- that's all, despite all the radical changes in population and GDP the US has undergone in the last 110 years.  Of course the regional variations are huge (a house in Buffalo doesn't now cost more than it did in 1960 in real terms, whereas Boston and California are another matter).

One of the CEOs of a really big homebuilder said something really clever, along the lines that housing slumps usually last 8-9 quarters, and this one peaked in July 2005.  ie Q4 2007 to bottom out.

Commentators calling the turn now are way too early, there is another year of pain to be taken if this is a normal housing slump.   Right now I think the US is in the phase where the sellers can't believe that prices have dropped, and the buyers won't pay the prices because they expect them to go lower.  So relatively few transactions.

As many as 1 in 4 new mortgages in the last 3 years, AFAIK, were sub prime lending.  This is the recipe for a complete collapse, (ie a 30%+ price drop), as that starts to unwind and those houses get liquidated.

Like you, I am a devotee of the Calculated Risk blog-- the guy really knows what he is talking about.

I've read that book and liked it as well.

FWIW, a friend of mine has a house on the market.  He is being treated so badly by prospective buyers (low-balls 25% below already lowered asking price) that I can see this is not the end.  Buyers are taking their time, and grinding the sellers.

Again, jumping in late, but the sector to follow is manufacturing.  My late good friend, Seymour Melman, was writing books in the 1960s warning about the decline of manufacturing in the U.S., so I realize it's extremely difficult, just like peak oil and global warming, to be precise about how declines will play themselves out.  The main point for right now though, is that it is impossible for a large country to import all, or a significant amount, of their manufactured goods and only exchange services for them.  

If you look at the Bureau of Economic Analysis website, and get this spreadsheet:
http://bea.gov/bea/newsrelarchive/2006/trad1006.xls

You'll have plenty of info, but I'll point out that services exports, total, where $380 billion in 2005, and imports were $315.  On the other hand, manufacturing imports were $1,667 billion, and exports were only $894 billion.  $229 billion (look at exhibit 9) of this deficit was petroleum, which means that 763 - 229 = 534 was still, by and large, manufactured goods, so it's not just a question of energy.  

The main problem is that services, by and large, are those activities that people do once they have manufactured goods.  For example, retail (like Walmart) retails manufactured goods, airline services use jets, the health indutry uses machines and drugs, etc., so it's very difficult, unless you are Bermuda and you can make your money from tourism, to support yourself with services.

So eventually the dollar will crash, and stay there, until and unless our manufacturing base recovers, and for the purposes of this discussion, that means that the price of gasoline will go through the roof.

This, I believe, was one of the points made by Milton Copulos, president of the National Defense Council Foundation to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee last March.

As I recall, he made a number of points about our energy situation, one being that we would 'export' about 320 billion bucks on imported petroleum in 2006. While some of this goes to produtive uses, much goes into nonproductive transportation frivolities.

He also made the point about the hidden external costs in a gallon of gas that actually push the price of a gallon from the Persian Gulf up to about $3.68. Those hidden costs are, of course, tied to our military expetitionary forces in you know where.

I believe that the original document can be found on the energybulletin.net

Did he mention we spent $450 billion on Christmas this year? That puts things into perspective, doesn't it?
"Did he mention we spent $450 billion on Christmas this year?..."

No he didn't and if we did, why didn't someone give me some of that $450 Billion:).... Oh, maybe my sister will give me a bottle of (imported) Scotch

He left an important fact out... It should have read:

"Our HOME-GROWN dependence on foreign oil results in a steady VOLUNTARY drain of money from lower and middle class class americans, and into the pockets of foreign governments, foreign countries and the wealthy class of this country."

All you really have to do is to decide to stop this and the problem goes away. Not magically... but deliberately.

Being an attny, you must be aware that you opened with the unsupported assertion that "the looming monetary crisis" is a "very likely possibility" and then based your following outcome on that assertion.  Indeed, even asserting what "will" happen when the first assertion is proved true.

For what it's worth, I can agree that many things in national and international commerce are worrying.  I can even say that I see trouble brewing.

It's just that I think I'd be kidding myself if I claimed an outcome based on those fears, vibes, whatever.

No one is that smart.

"No one is that smart"

Maybe I am :->

No kidding enviro I saw a BMW SUV certified preowned, at a BMW dealer for $15k, just yesterday. No way that's going to stay parked for long.
I recently read that, in the UK, the BMW SUV depreciates faster than any other car - around 40% in its first year. That is around £22,000 ($43,000) in one year!
The system of car leasing prevalent here (especially for corporate/company cars) makes this less evident to the consumer than otherwise.

Since many people I know simply lease their cars/ get it through a company scheme, and then trade it in after 4 years for a new car, the only way they see the depreciation is in a higher monthly payment (the leasing company adjusts by the predicted residual value).

And often that means they only see it when they pay the tax on their company car allowance.

So they are paying that cost, but it's not obvious to them.

That said, SUV sales are down in the UK, the constant attacks appear to have had an impact on the trendiness of same.  Sometimes unfairly: a Honda CRV has better fuel economy than a Lexus sedan.

Not before time, I might add, though.

If gasoline prices rose fast enough, the SUV fleet would get scrapped.

What would happen is exactly what happened with the gas guzzlers in the 1980s.  Remember those old Chevy Impalas with the 454 cubic inch engines?

They become second (or third or fourth) family cars, cars driven by low mileage users, cars driven by teenagers, students etc.  People keep them for weekend camping trips, and buy fuel efficient cars for daily commuting and trips to the mall.

In market terms, the SUVs turn out to have very high depreciation rates (just like the gas guzzlers of the 1970s).  You'll find Hispanic immigrants driving them to work in 7 years time.

One of the reasons US productivity growth dropped so much in the 1970s was probably because of the need to switch the US economy over to lower energy consuming activities.  Factories had to retool (or close), commercial and private vehicles had to become more efficient, oil fired power plants had to close, etc.  All of that reinvestment activity had an economic cost.

The concern with the US now, and with modern China, is that capital equipment can have a 50 year life span (a coal fired plant built in 1955 is still chugging away now).  So if either side 'locks in' to energy inefficient cars, buildings, power plants etc, it will be a big cost to prematurely scrap that in the future.

Capital equipment with 50 year life span is very rare these days. Most production facilities have to retool specialized expensive machinery every 10-15 years to keep up with new production technologies. Facilities that stick around like steel mills and sulfuric acid plants or aluminum refineries don't change much... simply because the chemistry of the product does not change. They are doing things nearly as efficiently as they can be done.
If you build a coal fired plant now, it will still be producing electricity with coal, 50 years from now.

Granted the production machinery will have been almost entirely replaced or renewed.  But the plant structure will still be there.

Nuclear plants are, of course, an even more extreme example-- 60 year operating lives are being planned for.

Oil fired plants my father built in North America in the 70s are still running in the Middle East now.

Gas turbines shipped to Middle Eastern and Mexican oil producers in the 70s, are still a lucrative market for spare parts now- -especially places like Iran and Iraq.

Jet planes of course famously fly for 40 years- -again their engines have been replaced or overhauled.

I can show you 30 year old steel mills which were dissassembled in Germany, and shipped lock stock and barrel to Manchuria in China, and set up and run again.  The original owner may not be using the equipment but it is still out there.

"If you build a coal fired plant now, it will still be producing electricity with coal, 50 years from now."

Not necessarily. If other ways of producing energy will be cheaper, they will simply shut it down. To write an investment of once is cheaper than to hemorrhage money all the time.

"Nuclear plants are, of course, an even more extreme example-- 60 year operating lives are being planned for."

Again it does not matter what they planned for in the past. If the realities of the energy market change, so will operations.  Nuclear power is fine with me, but we need to solve the waste problem. Not technically but politically. So far that has not happened, yet.

"Jet planes of course famously fly for 40 years- -again their engines have been replaced or overhauled."

I think a plane is practically being rebuilt every 20 years. The only thing that stays the same is the airframe. And even that might be cheaper to get rid off in the future if a new design has vastly reduced operating cost. Not to mention customer value. The 777 and 787 are selling very well because customers demand the comfort the new planes offer. I always make a conscious effort to fly a better plane when I pick my fligths. I know a lot of people who do that, too. We might not always get what we want but in an industry that depends so extremely on load balancing as the airlines do, the little perks of a silent cabin, larger windows and higher ceilings do make a difference.

"I can show you 30 year old steel mills which were dissassembled in Germany, and shipped lock stock and barrel to Manchuria in China, and set up and run again."

So were German breweries which went to China. The reason is simple: in cheaper labor markets, near the source of iron ore and coal etc. these factories might be profitable to operate, even if they are not in the US or Europe. One man's scrap is another man's future. But all of these movements are accelerating. Where 50 years where typical in the past we are now looking at 30 years and 30 years in the past mean 15 years today. China used to buy a lot of second hand equipment. Today they are buying the best and latest.

A few percent efficiency difference pay for the cost of the new equipment in ten years time or five if energy is expensive enough.

On coal, without some form of carbon tax, the marginal cost of burning coal, once you have the plant built, is so low that it is very difficult to see a fuel switch taking place.

Obviously if you tax the CO2, then the picture is completely different.

Once the capital cost is paid, the marginal (operating) cost of a lot of this equipment is so low it tends to stick around.  This is also true of those steel mills shipped to China.

Which is the danger of allowing new pulverised bed coal plants to be built.  We will almost certainly be faced with a difficult choice in 20 years time: whether to scrap them prematurely for environmental reasons, or not.

Like you said, the marginal cost that will turn things around is called "carbon tax". Nobody is going to save us from ourselves, except for us.

I think the cost of scrapping plants built today 20 years from now will be marginal. We will be able to live with it.

China is already learning the lesson that human lung capacity for aerial pollutants is limited. I think we will see very tough envirnomental regulations being imposed shortly. They have very good ways of dealing with people who do not follow the rules, too: they shoot them and send the bill for the bullets to the relatives.

Well, I think Stuart addressed vehicle turnover, but I seem to recall that the Hirsch report reached a rather different conclusion on this issue. Does anybody have enough familiarity with that document to comment? I must admit to being surprised at the data showing a rapid rise in overall fleet fuel economy following the late-70s oil shock. I think Stuart is right to point posit as a plausible mechanism a filtering process by which existing low-efficiency vehicles started to end up in the hands of people who had less need to drive longer distances.
Remember that the Hirsch report's charter/goal/assumption is that demand will be met by oil or alternate fuels.

Obviously that sets them up for a catch-22.  If demand will be met, why change the fleet?  If prices will be under control, why should hybrids penetrate the market any faster than they are now.

What I read into Stuart's 70's stories is that different conditions can lead to very different retirement and replacement rates.

But this is what I called this morning "a prediction horizon beyond which we cannot reasonably foretell."

We don't know the conditions, that will create the mood, that will create the reaction.

It's amazing how many people are sure though, who think they know how it will break out.

I counted five (5) times you used the word WILL in your post.

But I suuppose you know how to use the word so thats ok.

Taken far enough we would all have to stop speaking or expressing viewpoints on this site. We would be constricted in what words are ok and which are not. We would all have to hire attorneys to tell us what we can and cannot state.

Aren't you pushing it just a tad too far into the ridiculous area?

I could parse all of your sentences and find ambiguity in each one.

For instance: 'We dont' know...yada yada::: Are you speaking for everyone here? How do you know what WE think? etc etc
on and on and on...

 

how many of them were paired with an "if?"
BTW, it did occur to me last night that the Internets in general, and TOD in particular, might just serve a purpose ... by being places where people can pretend to know the future.

Say we are doomed, collect a virtual high-five from someone like minded, repeat.  It might all be fun, if you don't take it too seriously.

Perhaps your right. Even with all its faults its worthy IMO IMO IMO...(the net that is)

But one thing is that we will certainly have learned what others think, as opposed to sitting alone cogitating upon our own navels...and then finding a website to post them on ...

Not implying this is your activity..just speaking in general terms.

However I believe that those who have had valuable experiences or knowledge that exceeds the others that it is needful that they share that knowledge for the betterment of us all.

Lots of smarmy platitudes above...sorry.

For all its warts(very few) I am grateful that this site is here and functioning even though it causes me a lot of sleepless nights.

Agreed.  I love it when someone when someone with their hands dirty speaks up on a problem they've really been working with - in the oil field, the farm, the forest, ....
This is a nice, data rich post. I am wondering if Stuart has compared his analysis with the Hirsch Report.  Specifically part III, which looks at the size, age and turnover rate of the auto and truck fleets in the US.

http://www.mnforsustain.org/oil_peaking_of_world_oil_production_partIII.htm

It suggests that half the car stock is replaced every 10-15 years.    That is a pretty good clip, actually, representing a turnover rate of 5% to 7%.

Hirsch also notes the significant energy cost of building all those new vehicles.  As Memmel, Gail and others point out above, there are other factors that will interplay with this. It cannot be considered in a vacuum.  Stuart, I respect the hell out of your data gathering and analysis abilities.  But I think you need to cast your net even more broadly (and I'd love to see you put your talents to it).  Extrapolating post WWII trends into the future, then making adjustments based on certain assumptions seems to me predicated on one major unspoken assumption - everything that's happened to date pre- and post- any war we've had as yet - has happened in a world of expanding energy availability.  What's going to happen in the coming decades will be paradigmatically different.  Shrinking gross energy, more rapidly shrinking net energy, more rapidly yet shrinking net per capita energy, ballooning debt (and the drying up of the debt-based economy when creditors realize repayment is unlikely) mass unemployment, infrastructure crumbling, exploding international competition for not just shrinking net oil exports, but shrinking net food exports, water shortages...  Sorry, it's easy to get carried away, but the factors that interplay are myriad, and each in and of themselves a huge, complicated issue.  Thanks again, Stuart, for putting as big a piece of it out there in front of us as clearly as you do.  But it is bigger still, I haven't even mentioned climate change...  And while I'm no economist, the world to me looks like a huge financial pyramid, sucking resources from the broad bottom to the teetering top, protected and supported by police and military force.  Many here who understand it better than I see it as precarious.  When gas 'just' doubles or triples in price, how many million will no longer be able to afford their commute, won't have the funds for a more efficient vehicle, will find food prices escalating rapidly at the same time, and will be forced to take desperate measures, whatever those may be?  I for one do not see an orderly descent with society reinvesting and reinventing itself gradually, exponentially 2-3-4% per annum in the opposite direction from which we've been brain-poisoned all our lives to believe is the only way to go - up, more, consume mass quantities, bigger is better, rinse, repeat...  
"Hirsch also notes the significant energy cost of building all those new vehicles."

They can and will be written off.

The problem with your post is that you link shrinking energy demand with a collapsing economy. There is absolutely no logical link in the real world. Energy is a minor fraction of the economy. The US has a GDP of $12.3 trillion. Oil imports were roughly $300 billion or 2.4% of that... Per capita that is $1000. If we would spend $1000 per capita and year on conservation, we could reduce our oil imports easily by 5% per year and be energy independent in a few decades. The $300 billion in spending would, by the way, mostly stay in the US and ADD to our GDP and prosperity.

Think about it...

Well, in the short term, your logic holds, if we would do that, but I don't see us moving in that direction very quickly.  Longer term however, we will not be "energy independent" until we stop consuming the detritus of eons past - simply because that "resource" is not being replenished at any meaningful rate.  Catton paints it quite clearly in "Overshoot".  We are reliant upon the ghost acreage of millions of years ago for our sustenance.  It's utterly unsustainable.
I think we agree that the US needs to get moving. In some states it already has. On the federal level it is being held up by the current administration who took common sense hostage. I think we will see a change once the neocons are gone for good.

The US has plenty of renewables. It just hasn't made much use of any of them. The problem is not technological. It is political and sociological. But politics in general has a tendency to adjust to realities rather fast once the pressure becomes too large. And one can expect the pricing pressure to become enormous the day PO hits for real. People will wake up, smell the roses and politicians will make a 180 turn on the spot and claim that they were always for conservation and that that gas tax has been on either parties list since the 1970s and that it was the other party which always held it up. It will be fun to watch the stones fall...

:-)

With declining energy, there will be a shinking total output per person, because energy is such an essential part of production.

Our economy is not set up to deal with shrinking resources - it assumes growing resources, so as to cover the interest charges associated with repayment of debt. Once the situation changes, the monetary system as we know it will be in trouble. The system may fail altogether, or there may be hyperinflation.

There are lots of examples of collapes -  the recent one in Argentina, and the one in the early 90s in Russia come to mind. If a society doesn't have money, or if a person's saving suddenly buys virtually nothing, the world is very different. Your comments about writing off the cost of building lots of new vehicles becomes meaningless in the context of a collapse.

Yes, thanks Gail.  And note it was the "energy cost" of those vehicles I referred to - not the manufacturing or any other economic cost with which we can play accounting games.  As you have stated so clearly, here and elsewhere, economic growth relies on the underlying availability of energy.  Once that begins to shrink, the economic "rules" we have written will no longer appy, and we will learn to live by the rules of physics, geology, ecology...  or as some would say, nature bats last.

While I'm glad IP and I were able to find common ground, for at least heading in the right direction in the short term will be a good thing, where IP and I differ is in the longer, broader scale.  I'm all for renewables.  But we're presently consuming 40-50% of the biotic production of the planet, subsidized by the huge amount of fossil fuels we burn.  As the ffs necessarily subside, we'll turn ever more to the biosphere for energy.  The portion we're using now is already exterminating species left and right (200 a day by some estimates) and stressing nutrient cycles beyond their limits, both terrestrial and marine.  6+ billion of us will not - can not - live sustainably on this planet.

The data I have is the average car life is 16 years.

But that is the mean car life.  

I don't know what the median is, but I find it hard to believe that half the cars I see on the road are more than 16 years old.

So I suspect a degree of skewness, at least in which cars are driven-- the curve would favour younger cars.

In a North American winter climate, cars just don't last that long, even with modern rustproofing, etc.

In the sunny Southwest cars don't last that long, either. Many people are buying a new one every six to eight years. But they often enough keep the old iron without ever using it. I know tons of people who have a 1970s or 1980s car rusting in the garage. It is memorabilia to them... the first car, the car they had when they meet their significant other... or the car they will convert into this million dollar collectors item... one day...

:-)

Here in the DC area, I would place it closer to 9-11 for cars that are insured, closer to 6-8 for cars on the road.

I mean, I know plenty of people who buy cars, maintain them reasonably well, and drive them into the ground - and they generally don't last 20 years before they have repair issues that exceed the cost of buying another used car in better repair.

Perhaps the insurance industry has some data for us?

http://cta.ornl.gov/data/chapter3.shtml

Average age for US cars: 9 years (2001).  Median Age 8.1 years (2001).  median 8.9 years (2005).  Table 3

Interestingly both numbers have been rising steadily since 1970 from 5.6 average and 4.9 median-- a sign of the greater durability of cars, and also magnifying the problem of replacing them.  It might also be a sign that individual cars are driven less (households own more cars, drive each one less, total mileage is greater).

Now this is not inconsistent with the average car lasting 16 years (ie except for a very few models, most are scrap by their 16th birthday).

If the US car market averages about 14 million new cars a year, and this is about 6% of all cars in the 'park', then in 8 years, about 48% of cars would have been produced ie 48% of cars would be 8 years old or younger.

You can get a 4% efficiency increase easily just by driving slower and less aggresively with any vehicle. You can drive 4% less. That is one trip lost out of every 25. Don't tell me you couldn't cut out a couple of trips a month if you had to...

So now we gotten around two years without doing anything to the fleet. But wait... we could actually share commutes. That just doubles the efficiency for everyone who does it. 10% of all commuters share a ride and we get another year or two at 4%. We still haven't done anything to the fleet.

You could buy a Prius. That cuts average consumption in half.  4% decreases a year amount to 66% reduction over 10 years... So if you buy a Prius, you are good for at least another 10-12 years.

Add all of these savings up and you are looking at a 20 year timescale before the problem starts to be serious. But wait... 20 years from now we can build 120mpg hybrids and EV powered by solar energy...  

I guess the problem is not as severe, after all...

A simple way to reduce fuel use is to simply tell people how fast they are using fuel. When I had a loaner car with a mpg indicator I was stunned at how low the mileage was when I was accelerating or going up hill. Without anyone pushing me to do so I slowed down just because of that indicator. I'll bet if every car had an mpg indicator and if the color changed from green to yellow to red depending on the current mileage then I think the national fuel use would drop without much difficulty.

The vehicles that put on the most miles tend to be the newest. Somewhere in another thread I think it was estimated that we could replace the vehicles that drive about 50% of the miles, in five years.

Using figures from http://aqp.engr.ucdavis.edu/Documents/sensitivity.pdf, the 50% point is about 9.5 years.  But that's California; other states may age vehicles more quickly.

The data on page 15 suggest that 8 years of sales accounts for 49.0% of total VMT (cumulative total of %'s in 4th data column).

The same data indicates that the median life of CA vehicles is 16.6 years (total vehicle population divided by last year sales), while the same figure for the country as a whole is 12.4 years (210M divided by 17M). So, apparently California is not representative.

The same ratio (8 to 16.6) applied to the national figure of 12.4 gives 6.0 years, fairly close to the 5 year estimate.

One data point from Australia. Over the period from 2005 - 2006, petrol consumption dropped by 5%. Economic growth was robust at around 3% for that year.
Excellent, very informative post, Stuart!  

Amory Lovins (et al.), a technological optimist who I have been surprised to see not much discussed at TOD, argues in Winning the Oil Endgame (March 2005) that reducing vehicle weight, not improving engine efficiency, is the surest way toward much more energy efficient transportation, especially cars <http://www.oilendgame.com>, pp. 77 ff.  Available as free download for personal use.

I think the reduction in vehicle weight was a bigger factor in the changes you outline for the 1970s than you acknowledge.  I remember the Honda Accord as perhaps the defining vehicle of the 1970s; introduced in 1976, its sales went through the roof in the following years <http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=46009>.  

I don't take a position on engine efficiency versus vehicle weight.  I'm sure both will be important.
One criticism that I have with your analysis is that you neglected the weight factor.

In the early 70s, my family drove an Olds 98. Big as a small bedroom, it could carry a family of 7. In 1977, being on the cutting edge, we got a Honda Accord (which were very light cars in those days). It had double the mileage, but could no longer carry a family of 7. Thus, we would often have to take two cars.
This document from the Center for Sustainable Systems (U Mich.) has some interesting data as well:

Vehicle Miles Traveled
  • US passenger miles traveled in 2003 was 4.43 trillion
  • Annual average vehicle miles grew 3.3% from 1990 to 2000
  • Population grew 1.3% annually over the same period
Vehicle Occupancy
  • In 1977, US averaged 1.87 persons per vehicle
  • In 2001, US averaged 1.57 persons per vehicle
  • In 2003, the Department of Transportation reported more cars per
    average American household than drivers for them
Average Fuel Economy
  • In 1987-1988, light vehicle fuel economy peaked at 22.1 mpg
  • 2004 light vehicle fuel economy was 20.8 mpg
  • Average passenger car: 24.6 mpg
  • Average light truck: 17.9 mpg

Note: Fuel economy estimates listed above are based on the EPA adjusted fuel economy standards which more closely represent actual driving conditions.

Vehicle Size
During 1987-2004:

  • Average vehicle weight increased 26%
    (due to the growth in SUV market share)
  • Horsepower increased by 76%
  • Acceleration increased by 24%
  • Had these performance factors remained at 1987 levels,
    the Model Year 2004 fleet couldhave achieved a
    20% higher fuel economy
The point is that changing the problem to be solved, such as how many people are traveling in a vehicle of what size (and how much performance) plays a much bigger role than technology improvements on the status quo. In light of that, I believe your estimates of potential savings from additional efficiency improvements are overstated.
So clearly, there is no technical barrier whatsoever to a number of decades of 4% fuel economy growth.
Huh? What about rolling resistance and air resistance at high speeds? You still need to accelerate a certain amount of mass to driving speed--and you will not get it all back in regenerative braking.

There is an upper limit here--it's called 100%. And the closer you get, the more difficult and expensive it is to get the next 4%.

From a physics point of view the envelope of practical engineering efficiency is pretty constant with vehicle mass. To go from 25-30% thermodynamic efficiency in a car to 50% in a ship's diesel, engine mass and power have to increase 1000 fold. Consumption, however, is proportional to the mass of the car.  
Hello SS,

Thxs for your detailed post!  A very quick & cheap way to raise avg mpg is too discourage the one person/multiton vehicle commute as much as possible.  A rapid gas price shock will make many choose cheap scooters and motorcycles, yet retain their bigger vehicles for when they need to haul larger loads or passenger groups.

Used scooters and motorcycles are very cheap relative to even used cars, and the same financial savings are comparable to new two-wheel rides vs new 4-wheel vehicles.  Personal mobility is still retained, just as with bicycles: which I believe is more important to the vast majority of people in my Asphalt Wonderland than becoming time-dependent upon car-pools, bus schedules, or non-existent mass-transit.

The ever-increasing urban road congestion and time spent idling in traffic, or barely moving, represents a tremendous waste in fuel.  An idling 125-600cc scooter motor will use much less fuel than an idling 4,300-7,400cc V8 engine running the interior A/C or heat, radio, cellphone charging, and DVD player.  Even an idling, or barely moving 1,400cc 4-cylinder compact car wastes tremendous amounts of fuel versus the scooter if there is only one person inside the car.  If my Asphalt Wonderland had the foresight to allow two-wheeled riders to lane-split, as is allowed in California, then even less fuel and time would be wasted by two-wheeled riders having to idle in traffic.

Years ago, the Phx Megaburb was split in two by our normally dry Salt River being flooded for months: there was only two bridges spanning the riverbed and the traffic jams were legendary, yet people would just sit there for hours just inching along.  My solution was to bicycle my 20-mile roundtrip, and I would literally pedal past miles of practically stalled traffic.  I was simply amazed that so few people were willing to try this solution. Just shows how attached people are to their 'personal mobility' even if they aren't really going anywhere.  The motorcyclists, to their credit, would at least turn their engines off, and then push their rides till traffic flow speeded up, but they really wanted permission to legally lane-split.  No-go.

The recent postings of gasoline queue fistfights in the Northwest does not cheer me up-- I would think that with all the downed trees obstructing traffic that the simple task of lifting a bicycle over a tree, or going around it, would be much less stressful than traffic jams and fistfights.  People seem to have a very hard time thinking outside the box.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
 

I think it would be more correct to say:
People seem to have a hard time thinking in general when it comes to transportation. (TOD readers excluded of course)

Scooters and motorcycles work in some cases: good weather.

Who is willing to risk their lives and comfort riding one for commuting 25 miles each way in rain and snow?

Yeah, it's interesting that a significant gain in efficiency could be had simply by a major switch to two-wheeled vehicles, scooters and the like.  Some get 90 mpg already.  No tech improvements necessary. True, riding in foul weather is no fun, but so what? If if becomes necessary, people can rationalize the activity.
Don't forget the "fat" factor; the U.S. is the fattest country in the world.
Scooters and motorbikes should be given consideration, as the technology is here and now, and typical suburban families with 2-3 cars can easily afford to add a scooter, instead of replacing a vehicle.
Considering that much of the US population growth has happened in the sun belt states, Snow and Rain are not that much of an issue. If there is a sudden spurt in Oil prices, we could afford to outbid Indians and Chinese to import a half a million of these in short order.
Another concept is Free Public Transport, maybe even privately run, or by Charitable organizations,  Free transport, aka websites that run on Ad dollars alone.

Wasn't there some proposal in Western Australia for Free public transport? It was also tried in CA on smoggy days I think.

Stuart,

I have a question about manufacturing.

You estimated a fleet turnover of 6% and then assumed that entire 6% will get Prius or better mileage.

But as I understand it, Prius's are hard to get even now. Toyota can't make enough of them. And they only account for a small percentage of new cars.

If most/alot of manufacturing is dedicated to SUV/trucks, will that manufacturing capacity be able to output Prius level vehicles?

So improvements in milage might be limited by the ability to manufacture newer technology hybrid type vehicles. You can't make enough of them fast enough to get 4% improvement in mileage.

I guess you could make it up with scooters, econo cars and what not.

Just a thought.

Well, obviously the auto industry is able to meet total vehicular demand. A significant amount of retooling would be necessary to convert plants turning out trucks and SUVs into plants manufacturing hybrids, but it could be done.

One caveat, though--what is the environmental and energy impact of accelerating vehicle turnover? I ran across a reference to a study of the life-cycle impacts of automobiles undertaken in Germany by the Environment and Forecasting Institute in Heidelberg. That study estimated that the environmental cost of manfacturing a new car is equivalent to the same car being driven 35,000 miles. Further impacts occur during the disposal process.

Perhaps its better to keep some of those older vehicles on the road for a while longer.