Photovoltaics: From Waste to Energy-maker
Posted by Engineer-Poet on October 8, 2007 - 10:00am
Topic: Alternative energy
Tags: ecological niche, landfill, naptha, nuclear, oil, original, photovoltaic cell, photovoltaics, silicon, silicon shortage, waste [list all tags]
One recurring theme in nature is that anything which creates a waste product tends to also create an ecological niche for something which uses that product. This has also occurred in technology. It is relatively common for waste products which contain energy to find uses, but we may be about to see something a little different and more radical. For the past century, millions of tons of a particular waste product have been piling up all over the earth. This waste product contains no useful energy or rare elements, so its potential has taken longer to be widely recognized. It might just become something far more important to the future: a cheap and abundant energy-maker.
Languishing in labs and landfills
One of the most consistent elements of technological advancement is the gap between discovery and widespread commercialization. The first oil well in the USA was Drake's, in 1859; it took 54 years before the Model T reached mass production, and even longer before the internal combustion engine reached half of US households. The mechanism of nuclear fission was pieced together between 1934 and 1939, the first human-engineered fission chain reaction was in 1942, and Oyster Creek, the first nuclear plant to be ordered commercially, went on-line in 1960 (26 years); today, nuclear still accounts for only about 20% of US electric generation. Nuclear fusion was first initiated by humans in 1952 (the Ivy Mike test), but has yet to be demonstrated as a self-sustaining reaction under laboratory conditions (55 years and counting).
Some important energy sources were originally waste products. Naptha (gasoline) was originally an almost unmarketable byproduct of the production of kerosene lamp oil from petroleum. It found some uses such as cleaning fluid, but no application could use all that was being produced until the invention of the carburetor for the internal combustion engine. Now demand for gasoline and diesel fuel is the main driver for oil production. What was once discarded has become the industry's raison d'etre.
Previous responses to oil price spikes depended on technology already on the market. The US generated a substantial amount of its electricity from oil through the 1960's. When the oil price shocks of the 1970's hit, the response was to accelerate the on-going construction of nuclear electric plants; no new "Manhattan Project" was required, because the old one did just fine. Today, only about 3% of US electric generation comes from oil and oil byproducts (including petroleum coke).
We are ten to twenty years late in beginning our response to peak oil. Given the delay between invention and widespread commercialization, our productive responses from now until about 2025-2030 will come from inventions and resources already known but not yet widely used, languishing as they wait for us to take notice. Photovoltaics are one of these small but growing sources of energy.
Today's state of the art in PV
There are 4 major flavors of photovoltaic cell on the consumer market today:
- Single-crystal silicon.
- Polycrystalline silicon.
- Amorphous silicon.
- Thin film (silicon, CdTe, and CIGS are most widely used).
Some elements, like gallium, are in limited supply and cannot supply a great deal of power via photovoltaics. Others have few constraints; silicon is the 2nd most abundant element in Earth's crust (27.7% by weight). By all rights we should be able to make as many silicon PV cells as we want; we should be able to cover the planet with them.
The reality is different and more strange. Silicon PV production began as an offshoot of the semiconductor industry. The chip industry started with circular wafers made into single crystals by dipping a slowly turning crystal into a molten bath of silicon and drawing it out incrementally; the continuous turning created a rough cylinder consisting of a single crystal, which was sliced into wafers. Single crystals create the most efficient cells, but this is a slow and expensive process. Far from covering a planet, it remains far outside the typical household budget to completely cover even the house's roof.
New processes are changing this. Polycrystalline and amorphous silicon films are much cheaper than large single crystals, in both money and energy. But until recently the PV industry has been too small to be worth its own supply of silicon, so it has survived on the surplus from the semiconductor industry. This surplus had a way of disappearing when electronics were hot, squeezing out the PV industry. But this may be about to change in a very big way, and the consequences may be earth-shaking.
The chemistry of a revolution
This story starts about as far away from PV as you could think of, back in mines producing phosphate rock. Phosphates have long been in high demand as fertilizer (phosphorus is an essential element of life) and phosphate rock (fluoroapatite, Ca3(PO4)3CaF2) is today's major mineral source of the P in the KNP of fertilizers. This rock is dissolved in sulfuric acid (H2SO4) to release phosphoric acid, gypsum (CaSO4) and hydrogen fluoride (HF).
Hydrogen fluoride is nasty stuff. Today's method of disposal is to combine it with silicon dioxide (quartz sand) to make fluorosilicic acid, and then neutralize it with sodium hydroxide (lye) to make sodium fluorosilicate, Na2SiF6. This has some minor uses as a source of fluoride for drinking water, but far more is produced than can be used. It's been piling up for a long time. If Fluoride Alert's figures can be trusted, roughly a million tons of this stuff (containing about 600,000 tons of fluorine) is made every year.
That million tons of silicate also contains about 147,000 tons of silicon. It's been sitting there ever since.
That resource got noticed some time ago, during the alt-energy boom which followed the 1970's energy crisis. SRI International engineered a process which mixes sodium fluorosilicate with metallic sodium (Na). The fluorine has a greater affinity for sodium than silicon, so the result is sodium fluoride and elemental silicon. SRI claims that this process is simple and cheap (under $15/kg in volume), and easily scaled up to 1000 tons/year. The process got shelved after energy got cheap during the mid-80's, but the world has changed again and SRI has dusted it off. Per their presentation at last May's Clean Tech conference, the silicon can be turned into solid pellets, or cast directly into round crystals or ribbons.
Enter Evergreen Solar. Evergreen's "string ribbon" process produces 100-micron (0.1 mm) thick polycrystalline silicon ribbons directly from a molten silicon bath. Here's the new prospect for PV silicon: semi-toxic fertilizer waste and metallic sodium in, production-ready rectangular polysilicon wafers out.
Quantity matters
Making silicon is one thing. Making enough cheap enough to seriously change our energy situation is another thing entirely; you can burn Chanel No. 5 perfume, but you're not going to run even one heavy truck on it all year and the pricetag will make anyone less well-heeled than Bill Gates have second thoughts. So the important questions are,
- How much silicon is really available,
- How much (area) of wafers can it make,
- How much power (peak) could they produce, and
- How much will it all cost?
How much silicon: The million tons may not all be available. Some of it may be contaminated, or unsuitable for whatever reason. But since SRI claims to have tested this process, let's assume that enough raw material is produced to make 112,000 metric tons of silicon per year. That allows a bit over 20% of wastage. The specific gravity of silicon is about 2.8, so 112,000 metric tons would be about 40,000 cubic meters of solid elemental silicon.
How much area can it make: cast into ribbons 0.1 mm (10-4 meters) thick, it would make a staggering 400 million square meters of wafers. This is enough to cover a square 20 kilometers (roughly 12.5 miles) on a side.
How much peak power could they produce: Evergreen Solar is reputed to produce cells which are about 12% efficient. At the standard 1000 W/m² irradiance, the 400 million square meters of panels would produce a peak 48 billion watts of power. That's 48 gigawatts, more than 10% of US average electric consumption. We could probably add that much power every year, just from the waste produced in Florida from current mining. There are other phosphate mines, and probably a lot of raw material piled up over the years.
How much will it all cost: This is where things get into serious guesswork. SRI claims a cost (after sale of byproducts) of $14-something per kilogram of raw silicon. Let's round up to $15/kg and then multiply by ten to account for the cost of casting into ribbons, doping, printing electrodes, laminating onto glass and attaching connections (production of 400 square km per year will have some serious automation applied to it, so it shouldn't be all that expensive). A square meter of 100-micron cells has only a tenth of a liter of silicon, or 280 grams. Multiply by $150/kg and we get a price of $42/m² or about 35 cents per peak watt. The annual pricetag for all of this (112 million kg/year at $15/kg, times ten) would be just $16.8 billion. That's downright cheap; at less than $4.00 per square foot, it would be highly competitive with conventional roofing. We might see a situation where non-PV surfaces become the exception.
The consequences
It took a lot of money and smarts to create this development, but it may be very cheap to crank it out like popcorn. For the rough price of 1 year of the war in Iraq, we could make peak PV generation equal to about half of the nameplate capacity of every generator on the US grid. Further improvements in either the thickness (100 microns may not be the limit) or the efficiency (12% is just where things are today) of the cells would make watts even cheaper and more attractive.
Would we be able to absorb that much solar power? I'd like to say "probably". Today's just-in-time generation would make it difficult, but two developments would make it almost trivial: ice-storage cooling and battery-powered vehicles. Ice-storage is already starting to take off, driven by the difference between peak and overnight electric rates. The PHEV revolution is nascent, but leads inexorably to the pure EV at the limit. These developments are a grid manager's wet dream, allowing generation to be averaged over hours instead of seconds. They'll help a lot with wind, but cheap daytime PV power will drive both of these trends.
One question on everyone's mind is how this would fare in a monetary crisis. I think it depends whether it gets started soon enough. If it takes too long, there won't be either capital or barter to get it established in such an uncertain environment. But if it is already in motion, the picture looks very different to me. A cheap energy producer made in a country with a fickle currency (and a base of technology and labor which will be looking very hard for options) becomes a very attractive item for international trade. Everybody wants to make a profit, so part of the return trade would be the raw materials (sodium) and machine parts to make more. It would make little sense to outsource the labor to countries with strong currencies, so the work would stay where the raw material now sits piled in dunes. Some of the product would stay at home, too. What would a rapidly-growing source of cheap energy do to an economy and currency sunk by expensive energy? It's hard to see how the declining trend would fail to reverse itself.
Conclusion
To summarize the points above,
- We've been ignoring a major supply of silicon-containing material.
- This material can be made into elemental silicon very cheaply.
- The silicon product is ready for direct fabrication into raw wafers for PV cells.
- These PV cells may be extremely cheap: about 3 peak watts per dollar.
- If we used all the annual supply of this silicon source, we could create peak capacity of about 10% of US average electric consumption every year.
- If we used the stockpiles accumulated over the last several decades, we could go a lot faster than that.
- Cheap renewable energy producers would be an economic engine and could even help rescue a moribund economy and currency.
I know this is a rhetorical question, but what are we waiting for?



Great Article. Thanks. What are your feelings on First Solar as compared to Evergreen Solar. Thank again.
I haven't followed them.
Yup. Super article and particularly the "state of the art in PV" Its been pretty dry for those guys due to the silicon component for a long time. Evergreen products are mostly consumer oriented and First Solar is pointed to large commercial installations. It looks like Evergreen is much more innovative in processing silicon which is likely why EP has them linked. The ribbon process for forming raw photovoltaic cells is working. http://newenergyandfuel.com/
Very interesting. I have to admit, living in the UK, I am slightly unsure how solar can make a significant difference here. The weather is often overcast. Would solar work in these conditions?
Your wind resource is much easier to exploit right now. Take a look at George Monbiot's book "Heat." Very cheap solar may still do better than wind in the UK eventually, but we are a still some time away from that.
Chris
Step 1.
As PV solar power becomes economic, large installations are put into place in Spain, where the sun is reliable and hot, and where there are huge summer peak daytime air conditioning loads.
Step 2.
The Spaniards discover they have excess, effectively free, electricity from their PV plants in the winter when a/c loads are negligible.
Step 3.
The Spaniards notice that the British are paying through their noses for peak winter electricity.
Step 4.
The Spaniards sell electricity into the French grid, the French sell their electricity into the UK grid via the existing interconnecter under the channel.
Step 5.
PV in Spain expands to provide cheap winter solar energy to the whole of Northern Europe.
EP is making a good point about the way systems (in this case the waste side of things) can produce surprising results. That is why it might just be a mistake looking at the viability of solar in the UK alone.
Solar, whether a waste product or not, will hardly be a silver bullet and will have its issues too.
Looking at the big picture, the situation looks more like this:

Source = Trans-Mediterranean Renewable Energy Cooperation
Integrating all possibilities - including the renewable resources available to the Brits - will be a more complete answer.
http://science.reddit.com/info/2xswo/comments
http://digg.com/business_finance/Photovoltaics_From_Waste_to_Energy_make...
if you are so inclined...help us spread our contributors' work around the web, whether at reddit, digg, put it in other sites' comment boxes, or email it to others. Your help is appreciated.
Done. Here: http://newenergyandfuel.com/ plus the review covers some of the issues EP chose to leave out that will impact end users.
High penetrations levels of intermittent renewable power sources are a challenge with most current grid systems. There are several non-exclusive ways to 'absorb' solar power generation: real-time pricing, demand side management, hydro/pneumatic storage, for starters.
Retail real-time pricing will lower the cost of power when the sun is shining (or wind blowing), and raise it when this is not the case. Reducing the risk to industrial customers from unscrupulous operators gaming the system would be necessary, of course.
Demand Side Management provides a means to reduce consumption when supplies are tight. For example, a customer signed up in a Demand Side Management agreement may have their electric hot water heater or air conditioner go on a reduced duty cycle (e.g., turned 10 minutes out of every 40) , having additional control elements installed that receive 'conserve mode' signals from the grid operator when peak generation conditions are close to being reached. In 2005, U.S. electricity providers reported total peak-load reductions of 25,710 megawatts resulting from demand-side management (DSM) programs, a 9.3 percent increase from the amount reported in 2004. See a DoE initiative at http://gridwise.pnl.gov/
Energy Storage can be accomplished in a number of ways, from hydro storage (e.g., even Virginia has 3 such facilities), compressed air storage in caverns, flywheels , , and thermal storage, and others
As energy prices rise and become less reliable, any business that depends heavily on energy will invest in security of supply, kinda like a large scale UPS system. In the UK about 2/3 of the cost of our energy comes from grid maintenance rather than the generation cost. We have started to see intensive energy users install CHP or wind turbines on their sites to help meet their energy needs, this is a very good way of reducing loads on the grid and also reducing operating costs, as the energy should cost less and reliability isnt so much of an issue as the grid is hopefully there if things go wrong.
Energy storage is the easiest way to reduce fossil fuel dependency, electric transport and grid scale storage are desperatly needed :)
No nothing like 2/3rds of electricity cost is grid.
Transmission and Distribution are c. 35% of final retail electric power prices, from memory.
For wholesale customers, T&D charges would be much less. Commercial and industrial customers are 60% of UK power demand.
Remember too a lot of UK generating capacity has been written off, this was done at privatisation. So the reported cost is just the O&M and Fuel cost, without a capital cost. The UK has very old generating plant: in fact last winter, they even fired up one of the old oil fired units.
The actual generating cost in the UK will be much higher, as we replace the old coal-fired and nuclear stations with something else.
Demand-side management (DSM) is going to be key. Ice-storage A/C is going to be a huge part of this; today's summer peaks are almost entirely due to A/C load, but ice storage can shift this to any time of day and (with a little more water, which is cheap) spread demand over a large part of a week. And when PV creates noontime peaks on sunny days, ice storage will be there to buffer it.
The other big part is the EV/PHEV segment. If every light-duty vehicle in the USA (roughly 200 million) had a 16 kWh traction battery that averaged 50% charged when plugged in, there would be 1.6 terawatt-hours of tappable demand. This could absorb almost 4 hours of average US electric generation... or possibly defer it until a more favorable time a few hours in the future. This is where we could be 20 years from now.
I think that fleet replacement could go a little faster than 20 years. Also, the batteries in vehicles are not likely to be worn out when replaced, they'll just be degraded below transportation grade. So, I would guess that much storage will be in these used batteries. PG&E is already making contracts to purchase these.
Chris
A fleet replacement of established technology (ICE) with a non-commercial idea-stage technology for 20 years?
People, get some life. It took 20 years for ordinary hybrids to go from development to what? 2% of the market? How long will it take for plug-ins? For V2G? If I need to make a bet - no earlier than 2050.
"A total of 187,000 hybrid vehicles were sold in the United States in the first six months of 2007, according to J.D. Power. Sales of hybrid vehicles are expected to decline slightly in the second half of the year but, nevertheless, J.D. Power expects a total of 345,000 to be sold over the whole year. That would compare to 256,000 sold in 2006."
CNN Money
PO will dramatically change the purchasing trends of automobiles. Toss old assumptions out the door.
Interesting that I saw a television add for the Volt already.
Chris
Did they mention the price? Which channel?
It was PR. The commercial showed a bunch of kids hugging the hood. It was a commercial channel but I don't know which. But, it is interesting that GM would spend on a commercial for a product they won't produce yet for a while. Maybe they want to boost their credit rating by generating a wait list the way that the Prius had a wait list.
Chris
Plug-ins are an excellent idea because they fit in our current infrastructure. I expect them to become quite common within a decade or two. Maybe predominant - but just maybe - it is still to be seen what will be their cost and if they are able to scale fast enough.
V2G is another thing, because it will require additional infrastructure plus fitting the current one in it. Hell we don't even know if it will work - so far it's just a nicely sounding idea, demonstrated by noone.
Personally I think V2G won't work very well - and here is why: when I park my car at work in the morning I want to be able to start it any time I want to, and drive home or to my errands. Unfortunately after I park my car at work in the morning, this will be the most likely time millions of others will be doing the same and crank up those factories, A/Cs, computers etc. Hence we've got a certain negative correlation between parking and electricity demand. If this is the case when I leave work I will most likely find my car LESS charged than when I left it in the morning. If I use the ICE to recharge it on my way back, then effectively I am using my on-board ICE as a 15% efficient electrical generator that feeds the grid - burning (very expensive at that time) gasoline as a fuel. No good deal for me, thanks.
The bottom line is that V2G maybe sound like a good idea and may help a little but don't count on it yet. Let's see how plug-ins perform before we count those chickens.
LevinK, how about if we exclude you from V2G, because you seem to phrase criticisms as if you represent the world's style of life. Things will change and you won't have whatever power you want whenever you want it. Go with the flow.
But, lets not let go of, say, electric school buses. Known and regular hours on the road. But critically, an underused asset through most of the summer.
Just sitting there, 50kWh+ storage, providing ancillary services, up and down regulation, adding to spinning reserves.
Centrally located at a charging park. Oh, BTW, in emergencies, when locals seek shelter from the storm at a school, buses may provide local backup power.
And for some new EV performance results: click me
I don't see the point of your snippy comment.
Whether an idea will work or not has to be investigated prior to spending billions in implementing it. Or you don't agree? You guys are counting the chickens before they hatch and I bet none of you is even an electrical engineer. I am also not an engineer but at least I don't tell engineers what works or not.
EP's essay may be a good idea of what may possibly work. But it has to be proven in practice and this is the tough part. We can fantasize all we want.
I agree that this may possibly work. However, the potential payoff is enormous. Seeing if it does work should therefore be one of our highest priorities.
Edit: My degree says "BSEE" on it.
Unlike you, I have read (and more importantly, understood) the V2G papers at AC Propulsion's site. V2G is not a major method of storing energy for return to the grid. Its major uses are:
I just saw your edit. Thank you very much for the clarification. And of course my non electrical engineering remark was not against you - you did not participate in this conversation at this point, so I still hold on my bet.
Now in the light of your clarification, would you go back to your original post and revise it? I'm sorry for this request, but the most critical point of your clarification is that V2G is NOT a significant source for grid energy storage. While in the original post you explicitly rely on it to store non-dispatchable solar energy. Considering the amounts of energy we're talking about you have to admit this is not a viable suggestion at all.
Of course I am at fault for not doing the research before posting, but to my credit the V2G faults I pointed out were leading to exactly the same conclusion - that V2G can not be a major source for grid storage. But it could be used to stabilize the grid - something which I did not think about and I thank you again for the fair clarification. I would be curious about the cost/benefit analysis for this, but for this one I promise I'll do my own research.
Now that we are back to lacking a viable way to store huge amounts of electric energy we are again in front of the classical problems what will provide the baseload power and what will be used as peaking power.
Clearly solar can be a part of both, but what exactly part remains to be seen. I see it doing relatively well combined with nuclear as a secure baseload and for the nights plus NG plus some DSM to handle the peaks. Like you pointed out V2G can be used both as DSM and to handle short-term shartfalls. 50% nuclear, 30% solar and 20% NG look pretty viable to me. With apologies to Alan, but if/when solar picks up I don't think wind will be referred to at all.
Yet again, Levin, You are wrong. See you don't bother to look up any references or educate yourself, so here is slide 15 of V2G Basics from a recent conference on plug-in vehicles sponsored by the IEEE:
Average car driven 1 hour/day --> time
parked is 23 hours/day
Daily average travel: 32 miles
Practical power draw from car: 10 - 20 kW
US power generation=811 GW; load=417 GW
US 191 million cars x 15 kW = 2,865 GW
Vehicle batteries in a converted nationwide fleet has some 7x the capacity of US load. That's non-negligible.
Let's go further. If each vehicle stores 10 kWh/day, that's 20% of US daily consumption of 10^10 kWh/day. With all-electric vehicles at 35 kWh, storage capacity is 70% of electricity consumed per day. So, for example, an electric fleet enables significantly more wind power to be productively used than without a storage method.
You know in Texas they have installed so much wind power that now at night they can't use it all. Storage would significantly grow their use of wind. But then, you have a history here of arguing against significant amounts of wind.
Don't you think there's a reason people get so snippy with you?
Is nobody building pumped storage? At (IIRC) ~$100/MWh capacity, I would've expected selling dirt-cheap nighttime wind power at daytime peak rates would be economic. I could certainly be missing something, though.
Pitt, the comment was made last month in a public forum in front of audience of engineers, policy makers, business people, and utility people, and was made by Mark Kapner, PE, Senior Strategy Planner for Austin Energy.
My guess is the resources for pumped storage are just not there regionally.
They are, apparently, adding load balancing by putting windmills on the coast (where the winds blow at different times of day, even if the Load Factors are much lower than on the Texas Plains).
Warren Buffett is investing up to $4bn in Texas windmills.
If I am wrong, this mean EP is also wrong, and this paper here (PDF) is also wrong. Note this is a detailed technical paper not a power point presentation. I think you confuse grid regulation with energy storage. Grid regulation is the service of having a stand-by power to meet short-lived variations in demand. Utilities use hydro power, battery packs and capacitor banks to do it.
But it can not be used to smooth longer-term variation like the day/night cycle of solar. For these you need to have a significant storage in terms of GWh - like pumped hydro for example.
V2G does not have a huge capacity in terms of GWh. Your presentation and your calculation is bogus. The utility can not rely on all of the 10kwh stored in the car battery! Figure more like 2-3% of it. Why? Because if you jump in your car you need to know it is as fully recharged as possible - otherwise you are effectively feeding the grid with your ICE. Or the same thing I've been trying to point out all the time.
Overall I agree that V2G will be very useful. It will definitely enable more wind, because currently the V2G service is mostly performed by fossil plants operating in a spinning reserve mode. With V2G these can safely be retired.
BTW I'm expecting EP's response, at least he seems to know what he is talking about.
"...Because if you jump in your car you need to know it is as fully recharged as possible - otherwise you are effectively feeding the grid with your ICE."
There you go again with that ICE thing, and expecting whatever you want whenever you want it. You just don't get it. There are multiple services v2g enables. Check my first post on this thread.
By the way, it's not my presentation. It's from a guy who's been working on this for 10 years, and is currently riding around in a 35 kWh pure EV, and is working with a major utility and grid operator in a pilot program. The concept has been worked out. The concept has been demonstrated, and continues to be studied in order to get real-life experience with successively larger fleets.
But as I have said, don't sign up.
As for your bet, I don't want your money.
I think it is obvious that V2G will provide some storage functions too. That may work nicely in the case with school buses which you pointed out.
This does not change that the 191mln.vehicles x 10kwh calculation was mildly said misleading. There will be real-world constraints on this number, with discharging limits depending on a number of factors. Even if we accept that the the on-demand user culture will have to change, I think the personal car will be the least useful part of V2G. Hopefully financial incentatives could address that somewhat.
I am not an expert in this, but the presentation quotes 10-20kw per vehicle. Is this viable? It seems to me typical households and neighborhood clusters are not calculated for charges like that... wouldn't it require some rewiring?
I am perfectly fine with all you've said, but I wasn't misleading, I simply pointed out order of magnitude values of certain quantities. Real-world constraints will of course limit what can be accomplished, but that is a discovery process that is underway.
The eBox in Willett's talk provides 120 kW. The U Delaware car gets taken out on 100+ mile trips around the Delaware valley with typically 30-40% of battery power left over before any recharging. Has cruised on I95 between Washington and Wilmington at 70+ mph without a problem.
As you know even better in local and stop and go traffic. EVs are amazing efficient due to additional regenerative braking for recharging the battery.
I just had a DOH! moment with all those things around V2G.
Tesla Roadster has a 53kWh battery pack. They claim it will last for 100,000 miles. They also assume energy efficiency of 110Wh/km or 177Wh/mile. So throughout the battery life they expect:
100,000 x 177Wh/mile = 17,700 kWh could be recycled though the battery.
Their battery pack consists of 6,800 18650 Li-Ion cells, currently selling for about $2.50/piece, wholesale. This is $17,000 just for the Li-Ion cells, and I'm assuming everything else could be reused after the cell is degraded (which is a very weak assumption).
So to cover only the degradation of my car battery, the utility will have to pay me:
17,000 / 17,700 = $0.96 / kWh!
Why in the world would they want to do it if the wholesale price of peaking power is more like $0.05 c/kWh? This is 19 times as expensive! And $0.96/kwth is just the beginning - we did not count the infrastructure and the original generation costs inside yet.
So, in order V2G to work we would need:
1) Batteries that don't degrade (ultracapacitors?) - the jury is still out on whether we'll see those
2) Either breakthrough on chemical battery life or on battery cost or a combination thereof. But what is the chance we could see breakthroughs that lower the cost 20 times!
The only thing I saw in the V2G papers about battery degradation is it will be a subject of later research. Isn't this way to convenient?
Please correct me if I'm missing something. If I don't then I'll consider this discussion to be over.
$0.96 cents / kWh!
I wouldn't settle for less than a $1/kWh!
See my links and comments to Robert below, but in summary:
You're making money by just being plugged into the grid, providing spinning reserves. For regulation services, you can make $2500/yr.
On the battery lifetime, altairnano's specs claims a 15,000 deep-cycle lifetime, 41 years at one cycle per day. V2G will mostly be a small fraction of full cycle charge/discharge, so you might cut that lifetime by half.
Any reduced battery life is balanced against any revenue stream for providing services to the grid.
You're making money by just being plugged into the grid, providing spinning reserves.
"Spinning reserve" is the ability to produce energy on demand - and the bottom line is that you have to be able to produce it when requested at the market price.
Actually the way it works is at the time power is requested the loads are bid up with the lowest cost marginally produced power engaged first. In such environment V2G will never be used! The highest marginal cost peaking electricity is Natural Gas - at some $0.10/kwth it is 10 times less than batteries.
The only way what you suggest to work is to mandate utilities to NOT maintain enough lower cost spinning reserve thus creating artificial shortage in the market! Aren't you stretching this a little bit? How do you expect consumers will react to a $1/kwth price on their bills? Utilities will not pay for standby they will NEVER EVER use. They will build up the lower cost peaking generation until there is a glut of it - which is the case everywhere in the developed world. They will simply choose to ignore anybody who tries to sell them 20 times more expensive electricity. Or do you suggest the government mandates them to accept the bitter pill?
I agree that if it delivers, Altairnano's battery may address the cost issue to some extent. Assuming it reaches the same cost as Li-Ion and it has 10x times the battery life, the cost of the power (from degradation only) would be $0.10/kwth. Add infrastructure and premium costs and it would go to $0.15/kwth - closer to competitiveness but still remains to be seen. Just like with Eestor the question remains open.
Even then the utilities will prefer buying Altarirnano/Eestor batteries themselves. Why all the trouble of building V2G infrastructure and paying premiums if they can be in a full control and take all the benefits for themselves? Are you going to force them not to do it? Moreover the goal of accommodating renewables will be more easily reached this way.
I think you should abandon the idea at this point of time, it's getting way too funky.