Report: Brazilian Ethanol is Sustainable

For those who are expecting a Brazilian debunking, I am going to have to disappoint you. My previous debunking was not aimed at the issue of whether Brazilian ethanol is sustainable, but rather whether their example can be exported to the U.S. Whenever the topic of Brazilian sugarcane ethanol has come up, my response is generally that from what I have read, it appears to be a pretty good deal. Furthermore, I have never seen evidence to dispute the high EROEI claims of sugarcane ethanol. However, I will usually note that there are few comprehensive reports that have examined the process in detail, and I would feel more comfortable about the positive assessments if someone did such a study. My wish has been granted.
IEA Bioenergy has recently publicized a report entitled "Sustainability of Brazilian bio-ethanol". The report was commissioned by The Netherlands Agency for Sustainable Development and Innovation, and is in my opinion the most important endorsement of Brazilian ethanol to date. The work was conducted by the Copernicus Institute at Utrecht University in the Netherlands and at the University of Campinas in Brazil. The 136-page report is publicly available here (1.2 meg PDF).

The purpose of the study is explained in the introduction to the report:

The Dutch society recognizes the need for sustainable production and use of biomass. This has been expressed by environmental groups and the Parliament. The Dutch government decided to seek solutions by developing sustainability criteria and certification of biomass by a commission sustainable production of biomass. Between January 2006 and July 2006 these criteria have been developed. Parallel to these developments, in February 2006 this project was commissioned by SenterNovem on behalf of the Dutch Ministry for Housing, Spatial Planning and the Environment. As Brazil is one of the most likely countries to export bio-ethanol from sugar cane to the Netherlands, the sustainability of Brazilian bio-ethanol is the main topic of this report.

The main objective of this report was a comparison of Dutch sustainability criteria and the current Brazilian practice, and quantification of the consequences for ethanol production in terms of production method and production costs if these sustainability criteria are applied. To this end, the Dutch sustainability demands for bio-ethanol were investigated, including stakeholder consultation in the Netherlands, and an extensive assessment of the current ecological, economic and social impacts of ethanol production based on sugar cane in Brazil was carried out.

This is precisely the kind of study that has been needed to verify that claims of Brazilian ethanol sustainability are on sound scientific footing. According to the report, there are some areas of concern, but none that should prevent Brazilian ethanol from meeting the sustainability criteria:

While the current study contains many different types of uncertainties, no prohibitive reasons where identified why ethanol from São Paulo principally could not meet the Dutch sustainability standards set for 2007. In many impact categories, Brazilian ethanol from sugar cane scores average to (very) positive, see also Table I for a summary. For a number of other criteria, problems are identified, but it also appears that these may differ strongly between the individual plants. Furthermore, for most of these issues, measures can be identified to improve performance (when needed).

For the future and the whole of Brazil, too many uncertainties remain to determine whether also additional criteria from 2011 onwards can be met. First of all, it is as yet unclear how additional land use for sugar cane may cause indirect / induced land-use, and how large the actual impacts will be on land use, biodiversity etc. Second, it is also uncertain whether and how the Dutch sustainability criteria will deal with these indirect impacts, as these criteria are not yet clearly defined.

It is important to recognize that sustainability criteria lead to higher production costs - depending on the strictness of the sustainability criteria, we estimate additional ethanol costs of up to 56%, though in case mechanical green harvesting is applied, additional ethanol costs are estimated at 24%.While the latter may not necessarily be prohibitive given current oil prices, it is clear that some financial support is most likely needed to stimulate sustainable ethanol production.

The report examined a number of sustainability criteria. However, in this essay I will mention only two: EROEI and soil erosion.

What's the EROEI?

One the issue of sugarcane ethanol EROEI, which has been debated here a great deal, the study mentioned two different literature reports. The first was by Oliveira et al. in 2005, and it concluded that the EROEI was between 3.1 and 3.9. The second report was by Macedo et al. in 2004 and it concluded that the EROEI was between 8.3 and 10.2. (Note that the "bad" EROEI was still over double the EROEI of corn ethanol.) Due to the huge disparity between the two papers, the authors took a look at the underlying numbers, and concluded that the discrepancy involved the amount of diesel used in the agricultural operations process. They ultimately tracked down another paper that agreed with the Macedo study, so they reasoned that the diesel consumption numbers used by Oliviera were erroneous. They therefore concluded that an EROEI between 8.3 and 10.2 was legitimate.

Not surprisingly, the greenhouse gas (GHG) emission reduction for sugarcane ethanol was estimated to be >80%. EROEI and GHG emissions are very closely related, such that a renewable energy source possessing a high EROEI should demonstrate a high level of GHG emission reduction.

Soil Erosion

One area that did not fare as well as sugarcane ethanol advocates have often advertised is on the issue of soil erosion. I have been told a number of times that there is no erosion from sugarcane production, or that production is managed such that the topsoil actually increases over time.

While the report noted that the erosion is lower than for crops such as corn, it did note:

Soil erosion in sugar cane is generally limited compared to conventional agricultural crops such as corn and soybeans, although the exact difference is dependant on local conditions. However, soil losses for sugar cane may vary dramatically from 0.1 t/ha/y to 109 t/ha/y, depending on many factors, such as the declivity, the annual rain fall, the management and harvesting system, etc.

The report did state that data on erosion from sugarcane production was limited, and that there were some studies that suggested little to no erosion. The report also indicated that the erosion issue should be studied more closely, and that a soil erosion management plan is required. They state that new compliance criteria are to be developed for 2011. In concluding the section on soil erosion, they state:

Soil erosion during sugar cane production can be a site-specific problem. Soil erosion rates under sugar cane production are limited compared to conventional cropland, but are likely higher compared to pastures. Data on soil erosion rates under various land use types are however uncertain. Soil erosion can be prevented in various ways, although it cannot be avoided completely. Consequently, only in case very strict soil erosion rates are applied (which goes beyond the approach applied in existing certification systems and guidelines) soil erosion could be an important bottleneck for certification. As far as soil erosion can be prevented, the costs are likely in the order of magnitude of a few percent of the production costs of ethanol. We conclude that soil erosion can be regarded in general as having a medium impact factor on soil erosion.

My guess is that the last sentence in that section was supposed to read "We conclude that soil erosion can be regarded in general as having a medium impact factor on the sustainability criteria."

Implications for Tropical Countries

Based on the findings in the report, it suggests that many tropical countries have the potential for sustainable fuel production. This should be particularly true of any country that can grow excess sugarcane according to Brazil's methods. The major caveat is that the soil erosion issue must be appropriately managed. Not only would this help certain countries achieve some level of energy security, but excess fuel produced for export would open up new opportunities for farmers, factory workers, etc. and generate income for the country.

Implications for the U.S.

The reason the Netherlands commissioned this study is that they want to transition to fuels that are produced in a sustainable manner. If Brazil or other tropical countries can produce enough fuel for export, it will benefit the U.S. just like it will benefit the Netherlands. However, the U.S. does have an import tariff in place that penalizes Brazilian ethanol in order to protect (unsustainable) homegrown corn ethanol.

One way the Brazilian example does not benefit the U.S. is in providing a template for success. As I have argued previously, Brazil's particular situation is not applicable in the U.S. As I wrote in an article for World Energy Source, the U.S. uses 7 times the energy per capita that Brazil does. Our supply/demand imbalance gap is 16.9 barrels per person per year. Theirs was 0.2 barrels per person last year, prior to the opening of a new Petrobras platform earlier in the year (immediately after which they declared energy independence). Furthermore, we rely on a crop (corn) in the U.S. that is much less energy efficient, and has ten times the soil erosion of sugarcane production. Finally, we are not in a tropical climate, and therefore have a much shorter growing season than does Brazil.

Brazilian ethanol expert Milton Maciel, has echoed these arguments:

Sugar cane ethanol from Brazil is NOT a realistic target or a comparable model for USA ethanol from corn. It is very easy to replace all gasoline when you would only need 8 billion gallons per year and you have a generous plant that thrives rain-fed under tropical conditions, occupying less than 1% of a country's arable land, to produce alcohol to replace 50% of all that gasoline. However, this cannot be extrapolated for USA's conditions, neither for corn, not even for sugar cane in Southern states. So, realistically, let's understand that sugar cane ethanol in Brazil is mangoes and corn ethanol in USA is apples.

Pipedreaming

The Brazilian example does suggest some avenues ripe for exploration in the U.S. There are certain crops that are far less erosive than others. According to Table K.1 in the report, soil erosion for sugarcane and corn was 1.24 and 12.0 (t/ha/y) respectively. Note that erosion from corn is 10 times the erosion from sugarcane. Another listed crop, potatoes, had about half the erosion level of corn. However, the level of erosion for potatoes is still not sustainable, so we need to look to other crops if we are to maintain the integrity of our topsoil.

Imagine a couple of scenarios. First, imagine a variety of sugarcane that is bred/engineered to withstand more temperate climates. Imagine the Midwest covered in sugarcane instead of corn, and we would have taken a big step toward sustainability. Alternatively, imagine a plant that currently thrives in the Midwest, does not contribute to soil erosion, and produces sugar (easily converted to ethanol). I could envision something like Miscanthus, with an engineered gene(s) that allows it to produce sugar. If you have ever seen the ancestor of corn - teosinte - and compared it to modern corn, this idea does not seem out of the question. Again, if we could pull something like that off in the U.S., it could offset some of the decline in conventional oil production without exacting the high environmental price of alternatives like coal-to-liquids.


Selective Breeding Turned Teosinte into Modern Corn

Conclusions

The sustainability of Brazilian ethanol appears for the most part to be as advertised. The indications are that the EROEI is at least 8.3, which would actually make it better than for gasoline. (Incidentally, that brings to mind the question of why Brazil would want to export any ethanol; I would use my ethanol internally and would export my oil instead). The sustainability criteria that were used in this study are an example of what we should be doing for all of our fuel sources, and we should encourage those that meet these standards.

[editor's note, by Prof. Goose] If you would like to see Robert's engagement of venture capitalist Vinod Khosla (which was done over three or four posts), you can either search for it over in the right sidebar, or you could go up to the title of the post and click "all tags" and then search for Khosla's name or ethanol or whatever else you want to read about. That's what the tags are for!

Thanks RR. It's important to separate what is sustainable including being location specific. What works for Brazil is not generally applicable everywhere. I think the main issue is what you mentioned in your first post about Brazil's energy independence:

Oil consumption in Brazil is 4.2 barrels per person per year. In the U.S., oil consumption is 27 barrels per person per year, 6.4 times as much per person as Brazil's.However, we do produce much more oil per person than Brazil. Each year the U.S. produces 11 barrels per person, compared to 3.35 barrels per person for Brazil. In order to achieve energy independence, the gap between demand and production must be closed. Brazil has to close a gap of 0.85 barrels per person per year (4.2 - 3.35). They produce sufficient ethanol to close this gap, and therefore they are energy independent. The U.S., on the other hand, has to close a gap of 16 barrels per person per year. The U.S. gap in production/demand is almost 19 times greater than the production/demand gap in Brazil.

It's just shocking how much oil we use per person. That's where we need to start.

A major take home message needs to be: We are not Brazil. Even if Americans were willing to cut their energy usage to Brazil's usage, we still don't have the correct crop to replicate what they have done. But the chances of us willingly cutting our consumption to Brazil's levels are nil anyway.
Exactly. Each country - indeed each local area has many different circumstances that affect its sustainability. What works in Iowa probably won't work in New York. Indeed Upstate and downstate New York are dramatically different in many ways.

Everyone should focus on developing their strengths and understand their limitations and weaknesses to best overcome them.

Robert, PG (or ?) - could we have a page on gasification?  I have read a little about it being a better alternative to corn based ethanol, using indigenuos grasses and trees. There is some old literature on the net from the 1940's.  It would be interesting to know the EROEI to this process.  Another page about that someone building a plant that coverts(cracks(?)) waste(turkey guts from a turkey proccesor + plus other stuff) into oil  with high heat and pressure.
Robert, PG (or ?) - could we have a page on gasification?

Actually, the next post I will do is going to be on gasification. It will be a post discussing Khosla's newest venture, which the media is calling cellulosic ethanol, but which is actually gasification.

If cellulose is the feedstock and gasification the process by which you get your end product (in this case EtOH) then you have yourself cellulosic ethanol.
Gasification -or thermo-chemical conversion of syngas->EtOH- is perhaps the best production path we could ever hope to achieve for producing ethanol (and higher order alcohols) from abundant waste and renewable carbonaceous materiel in quantity enough to mitigate the effects of Peak Oil which as you know, is a liquid transportation fuel crisis.

The problem, however, is that there are but a handful of research labs, groups and government entities dedicating the time and effort to this production path because said path is not easy in a world of limited funding, cheap oil and entrenched interest.

Every Drummer here knows full well that the current US administration is acutely aware of the dire ramifications that Peak Oil presents modern society -from Simmons and Woolsey to Bartlett and Hirsch (who works for SAIC of all companies)- everyone recognizes that we need to start developing alternatives like... yesterday.

That said, I've posted here time and again that in light of the above, should the United States government really want to come up with an alternative to gasoline usage, the full weight and might of America's fiscal, political and technical resource base would be given proper prioritization and motivation to remedy the crisis at hand.

www.defendscience.org

Cultivation of sugar cane in Brazil seems to be widespread handwork. I read about the 'catastrophic conditions' in which even children are working there - in contrary to US corn agriculture that seems to highly work with machinery.

So how can one compare the energy input correctly?

I read about the 'catastrophic conditions' in which even children are working there...

Child labor was a part of their sustainability criteria. While they flagged it as a concern, it didn't appear to be widespread, and they felt like it could be addressed. On the other hand, even if they don't address it, someone else is still going to buy that ethanol. That is going to be a problem unless everyone adopts the Dutch sustainability criteria.

The child labour issue is mentioned in passing here:http://assets.panda.org/downloads/sustainablesugar.pdf

But this is a paper, prepared for the World Wildlife Fund, which should be read for other reasons as well.  First of all it shows that sugar cane cultivation can (but doesn't necessarily have to) impact negatively in ecologically varying areas.  In fact rain forest areas seem only marginally under threat from sugar cane. (We should perhaps spend a little more time considering the impact of mining other low entropy resources, such as old growth woods from North American rain forests.)

One key point made in this paper relates to the impact of subsidized European and U.S. sugar production (mostly from beets) on sugar cane cultivation practices in poor countries.

Of particular value in the paper is the contention that Best Management Practices can mitigate, if not entirely overcome, negative environmental and social impacts of sugar cane cultivation.

This is of course what Milton Maciel has been telling us for years.  

Now, I don't know if Robert was referring to posts I have on occasion made when he wrote:

"One area that did not fare as well as sugarcane ethanol advocates have often advertised is on the issue of soil erosion. I have been told a number of times that there is no erosion from sugarcane production, or that production is managed such that the topsoil actually increases over time."

Milton Maciel has made numerous posts on Yahoo Groups - Energy Resources that organic sugarcane cultivation, and we of course assume best mangagement practices, does improve the topsoil over time.  Is he wrong?

I guess once a European or North American agency verifies the evidence then we will have "precisely the kind of study that has been needed to verify that claims ... are on sound scientific footing".  After all, what the hell is Brazilean research worth anyway?

 

The WWF paper does not cover Brazilian->EtOH production and with respect to Brazil proper, the paper does not mention child labor but rather gives out an arbitrary reference about North East living standards.

NOTE: Brazil isn't even listed as one of the countries that the WWF is working in.

This paper does indeed highlight best management practices such as using vinasse for fertilization, bagesse for cogen heat and surplus electrical generation - practices all utilized in Brazil.

A key point -yet again- is the effect that decimating 1st world protectionist trade policy is having on 3rd world agro economies.

8 workers/hectare is not 'handwork' It is industrial human labor and is not calculated in these rosy eroei calculations. A hard day is 3000 calories. The food, transport, room and board, and medical costs for these labors are 10X that amount.

No one calculate 30,000*8 laborers/hectare in the energy formulas

Sugar cane is not energy positive and studies that suggest it are not robuts.

This is one of the areas of net energy analysis that needs to be expanded upon. We live in an interconnected world where it is increasingly difficult to parse everything into one common denominator. Society has attempted to do this using a global monetary system, but its proving difficult to put proper dollar values on air, water, ecosystem services, etc. Would you rather a new $50,000 mercedes or clean air to breathe for the next 10 minutes?

Net energy analysis in my opinion, will be critical in the coming transition from fossil fuels to renewables (irrespective if there ends up being 10 billion people or 1 billion). But to parse everything into energy terms is not paying attention to systems analysis. We need to consider the impact on land, on labor, on soil, etc as well as energy. We still dont have a mechanism to synthesize and compare all these things. EROI is one measure. Dollars are another. We need something better.

Nate,

Look at the scientific work of H.T. Odum on emergy. Emergy provides a accounting system for the work of nature and humans.

I should have written 'we still dont have a system other than Odums eMergy' for assimilating all inputs other than energy
In fact, the criticism of the paper with the lower EROEI, in addition to having the diesel input wrong, was that it represented emergy, and not energy.
"8 workers/hectare is not 'handwork' It is industrial human labor and is not calculated in these rosy eroei calculations. A hard day is 3000 calories. The food, transport, room and board, and medical costs for these labors are 10X that amount."

Sure.  And to get a fair comparison let's calculate the energy burned by the advertising agency staff for the heavy machinery for the oil and gas service industry trade show.  And for that matter, their babysitters, so that the ad agents can work overtime.  Yeah, and the energy burned by the mother's of the pimply faced servers at the fast food joints, who send up sandwiches to the security staff so that the ad agents babysitters can babysit without risk of kidnappers.

this is unreasonable because all these post production costs are exactly the same for ethanol and petroleum

no, the cost of those 8 field laborers is repeated year after year in the field while the crude essentially flows under its own power into the refinery. 240,000 calories are burned for the production of that hectare. I wonder what percent of the final fuel that represents?

240,000 calories are burned for the production of that hectare. I wonder what percent of the final fuel that represents?

Less than 1%.

240,000 calories = 8 gallons of gasoline (source).  Brazil is getting about 7,000 litres of ethanol per hectare (source), meaning that 240,000 calories is only about 0.8% of the energy content of the fuel.

i.e., totally, completely, and rather obviously inconsequential.  Think about it logically -- if the energy for food was more than the amount of energy in the fuel, how could this be economically viable, which it clearly is?  Drop your preconceptions and think about it for a moment.

Drop your preconceptions and think about it for a moment.

If pstarr dropped his/her preconceptions what would he/she have left?

There are some real serious concerns about biofuels, primarily the environmental impacts of biodiesel on rainforests in South America and SE Asia. It is esential to address these and to recognize that they will and should limit the use of biofuels.

However those sticking their fingers in their ears and chanting EROEI, EROEI, EROEI aren't helping much.

240,000 calories = 8 gallons of gasoline (source).  Brazil is getting about 7,000 litres of ethanol per hectare (source), meaning that 240,000 calories is only about 0.8% of the energy content of the fuel.

i thought 8 gallons for the workers is per day while 7000 liters is per year?

If the workers were consuming 240,000 calories per day they would explode.
Apparently that's not relevant. What can I tell you? I never believe any numbers that don't match mine. But I've got none in this case and you've got nobody to contradict you. So I've got to go with my original statement. Apparently nobody gives a shit that people will blow up. Maybe I phrased that wrong. Maybe I should've have said the proletariat. Careful. There are hardcore communists in our midst. I'll draw the fire. But you may have to carry it.
Brazilian sugarcane production is shown to be energy positive study after study after study and yet some of us just don't seem to get it do they pstarr?
Many Brazilian farms are mechanized with specialized vehicles for harvest and transport and due to the overall success of the industry, real wages and living standards for those involved have increasd.

Please provide the link or source for the so-called catastrophic conditions and child labor in the Brazilian sugarcane industry.

don't know whether you accept a german wikipedia page as reliable:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuckerrohr#Geschichte

The last paragraph says:

"Today sugar cane is grown worldwide and produces 55 per cent of all sugar. Main production nations are India, Australia, Thailand, South Africa, the Caribbean and of course Brazil.
Working conditions on the fields are partially catastrophic. Often children and women are employed as laborers, poor payment is widespread in sugar cane cultivation anyway.
Brazilian plantage laborers earn some 2 Reais (appr. 70 Euro-Cents, as of aug 2006) for a ton of chopped cane.

Daily performance of good workers is 8 to 10 tons. That's why cane sugar can be sold so inexpensive, however it is not  competitive in the EU against beet sugar due to heavy duties."

This aspect is not mentioned on the english wikipedia site about sugar cane. The harvester is described there.

I may apologize when some expressions appear to be rude (maybe "performance" while speaking of human labor isn't nice) - I don't mean to insult anyone. This was a quick translation of the german text, and I am no native speaker.

Thanks for the follow-up.  

I fully agree that places such as India/Africa have big child labor issues albeit this problem is in every sector of their respective economies not just sugarcane production.

Moreover, working conditions for menial farm labor in any 3rd world country are not exactly going to be terrific by any western standard, however, wages and conditions would likely improve if the world market prices for crops produced weren't so artifically low.

And as posted below re: WWF article as it relates to our subject... Brazil is not a country the WWF is too concerned about.

I should add that I had read a story recently which outlined how Brazilian cane cutter's lives were improving because of the ethanol fuel industry.  I will try to find it and post the link for you.

Sugar cane in Thailand is grown almost exclusively on small farms owned by the farmers. They are protected by a governmnet scheme that requires sharing of profits between farmers and refiners.

This is one reason why cane prices here are higher than Brazil.

Thanks for the post. A little off topic, a few days ago I asked the following question, however no one seemed to have an answer.  
Currently a pound of 10% moisture corn will yield about 3/4ths of a cup of ethanol or about 6 Oz. How does this compare with yield from 1 pound of biomass; switch-grass, corn-stocks, or pine-logs, using the current yield from pilot plant or lab cellulosic ethanol process?
Iogen has reported that their yield is 70 gallon per ton. Theoretical yield for cellulosic is reported to be 114 gal/ton.

Syntec, using a gasification process (not cellulosic ethanol), estimates that their yield will be 114 gal/ton, while theoretical is 230 gal/ton for their process. Maybe our good friend "Syntec" would like to elaborate.

Theoretical yield for cellulosic is reported to be 114 gal/ton.

If we end up looking for good cellulose crops, the current champion is one that the human race has over 10,000 years of experience with: industrial hemp. Not only does it provide the highest cellulose yield, but it also produces large quantities of non-cellulose fiber that is superior to wood pulp for paper and, with modern processing techniques, nearly the equal of cotton for cloth. Hemp seed is nutritious or can be pressed to obtain useful oil. It grows in every climate zone in the US with the exception of true deserts, requires no herbicides because it will choke out everything else in the field, and requires minimal or no pesticides. It works well in rotation with other crops.

A variety of experts have testified that, except for the low-level THC content that still exists in industrial hemp, we wouldn't even be looking at other crops for fiber or cellulose. If we're looking to tinker with the genes of a crop that grows well in temperate climates in order to get it to produce sugar, let's start with hemp and just get rid of the THC while we're at it.

Hemp was never more than a minor niche crop.  Cotton was king for fiber with wool #2 and linen #3.

Flax is a better choice than hemp, because the "high THC" flax cannot be hidden amongst the low THC flax.

Flax is also highly productive, edible, etc. but no one talks about it .

H'mmm

Alan

And Flax seed oil is extremely good for you. It's a good source of Essential Fatty Acids which are direct precursors of Omega-3 fatty acids.

Flax seed oil is a good alternative to salmon, which is not particularly sustainable.

Hemp was never more than a minor niche crop.  Cotton was king for fiber with wool #2 and linen #3.

For most of a thousand years, every village in Europe had a communal hemp field that was the source of fiber for rope and the majority of the clothing of the common people. Cotton is a relative latecomer in much of the world. In most of the world, hemp was the main fiber for paper before the 1900s (when duPont et al developed industrial-scale processes for using wood fiber and lots of duPont chemicals). And of course, from an ecological perspective, in terms of how much pesticide and artifical fertilizer are required, hemp is vastly superior to cotton, and somewhat better than flax.

My point was that if you want a field crop for cellulose, hemp has the best yield for that and produces other useful components. In a world that's short on petroleum, natural gas, and possibly energy in general, ignoring industrial hemp because it's too easy to grow high-THC marijuana on the sly is probably a bad decision.

I think your EU history is a bit skewed.  From distant memory both England and Ireland raised flax, not hemp, and wool for fibers.

No knowledge of Germany, etc. but I suspect the same.

Alan

Certainly in the area I live in (rural south-east France) hemp was the second crop, after grain. There are (remains of) water mills every few hundred yards along the small stream that runs through my property. More than half of them were for processing hemp into useable fibre.
You cannot hide mary jane in a field of hemp - we've covered this 1000 times Alan.

And no, flax is not a better choice than hemp - another subject covered here extensively.

A good friend of mine is right now working on a cellulosic ethanol project and his number 1 feedstock of choice is hemp for all the reasons discussed here on previous occasion.