Peak Oil: A View from Planet Talos

This is a guest post from First Talosian, the senior member of the planetary expedition force from Talos. I am posting the correspondence as we received it, unedited. (there are spelling and grammatical errors). In it he describes his culture's perspectives on Earth's history and future with particular emphasis on our energy and ecological intersections. The graphics were added by me after reading his letter.



First Talosian of Talos
Greetings to all Homo sapiens and any others on Earth who can understand this,

Each 10,000 years, one of our vessels visits your planet to observe, learn and enjoy its rich diversity. We cannot breathe your air for long (the 'air' on Talos is 88% Oxygen) so we park our vessel during our visit and observe by spectral telemetry screens. (Our ship is 3 miles above western Ecuador, but is cloaked - even your 'advanced' military will not find it).

According to our records, your planet is 4,588,250,000 years old (Talos is almost 7 billion). Our race is extremely old. We developed space travel about 800 million years ago and have been coming to earth for almost that long. To our knowledge, there are 19,056 planets in the universe (and there are actually 2 universes) that possess the genetic combinations that you call `life'. However, your planet contains over 16% of all species in the universe (over 10 million) and as such has long been one of our favorites. Too, we are very smart (to our knowledge the smartest among interstellar life-forms.) Our brains evolved to be extremely large due to special conditions on Talos that no longer exist.






Our Planet Talos (very far away)

We continue space-travel to different galaxies to experience new sights and experiences, the memories and quandaries of which then circulate in our minds for millenia like a hundred sided rubicks toy cube. Otherwise we get bored quite easily and experience mental decay. Sadly, the females of our race died out 20 million years ago so we cannot reproduce. However, our scientists (in particular a genius even by Talos standards named Cornelius), discovered how to regenerate neurons with virtually no thermodynamic loss, thereby stopping aging almost completely. There are now 1,752 Talosians left, and for all purposes we are immortal on your human time scale. Too, we bleed and laugh and experience joy and pain just like we observe you do. A bullet or a bite from a jandar would be just as deadly for us. But we are cautious. Now let me continue.

This is my 19th visit to your blue planet. My first trip here was in your year 4,529,665,520, which was just before the asteroid impact that removed the large mammals and well before the primate line began from the morphological isolation of a tarsier colony. But most of my visits have been in the last 2 million years, and this is my 11th trip in a row (110,000 earth years). On my last visit here 10,000 years ago, there were only about 1 million hominids on the planet- in a fraction of earths history your population has increased 65,000 fold. Let me continue. (human: insert graphics here)






Imagine this is the 5,000th graph laid side by side - the other 4,999 would all look like the left part of this one
Click twice on the above graph to make it clearer


What stayed underneath your planet's crust for millions of years, is now being sucked out rapidly in order to maintain your current social trajectory. For us this would be tragic as we are extremely long lived and the 0-20 years in which you quarrel about when Peak Oil arrives is irrelevant. Talosians long ago matched our consumptive needs with our planets unique solar flows, (even though we had to import certain technologies that enabled us to accomplish this).


Our purpose on Earth is mostly benign. Other than the Talosian utility we get from observing your biodiversity and it's interactions, each time we come we replenish a supply of DreamGrubs, which are only found on your planet, in Ecuador and Peru - we bring them back and breed them. Consumption of 15-20 of these grubs induces sleep followed by 3-4 days of vivid colorful dreams - dreams that for some reason always include having children, so you can imagine our desire for them. The grubs were once highly competed for but we are less than 2,000 now so have plenty to share. Our other purpose is less benign, but cannot be spoken of. Let me continue.







Your beautiful Planet



Congratulations, first of all, to your human ancestors. They successfully out-competed thousands of other species for resource acquisition and were able to squat in the most productive ecosystem areas. Wondrous creatures we remember from past millennia like saber-tooth tigers, mastodons, and dapling wolves (you are yet to find their skeletons), were muscled out by the recent global advance of your tribes. After you split from the main primate line 5 million years ago and then rapidly developed a larger and larger neo-cortical region during the climate volatility 500,000-1,000,000 years ago, your ability to think, imagine and create has become unique on your planet. However, your basic neural impulses originated from the same phylogenetic pathways as all creatures on earth, and as such a Talosian would view your culturally implied superiority over other sentient genetic combinations as misplaced. The primitive `reptilian' brain that activates your fight or flight responses and regulates your neural-endocrine cascade system is over a half a billion years old and shared by all earth creatures that move away from painful stimuli and towards food, energy and warmth. Your emotions, part of an intricate limbic system that fears, hungers, wants, sleeps, plays and feels satisfied has largely the same sea-horse shaped structure( with the exception of its interplay with the frontal cortex) as all other terrestrial mammals,. Too, it must be so, as you evolved from them. It is your neo-cortex that separates your behaviours and potentials from the other mammals and the size of it that further explains your recent success relative to the other 310 primate species. Let me continue. (human -insert graphics here)


The Triune HomoSapiens Brain

On this visit to earth I am experiencing unpleasant sensations. This is the first time my crew feels fear at what we will discover here on our next voyage. Homo sapiens has clearly won the earth resource lottery ticket. Through the incredible, but mathematically probable, relentless success of your ancestors, your neural circuitry through natural selection has become wired to locate, concentrate and consume resources. All creatures do this, but you have become the best at it. Because you are the best, your activities are squeezing out other species you compete with, that don't possess your large brains. Only in the current generation has this propensity begin to run up against boundaries in both inputs (resources) and outputs (homo sapiens waste products).

The fossil fuels that you have built modern human tribes interactions around, are running out. They started running out the first day you decided to harness them. We knew that one day one of several species on this planet would puzzle out how to access and utilize the highly concentrated forms of energy buried beneath your planets surface- we have had many debates and dreams of how this species (which we now discover is human) would utilize this bounty. You are still a young species, and your rational, cognitive systems are as yet not strong enough to overcome your emotional urges from hundreds of millions of generations of selection as mammals and more recently the tribal competition and social cooperation that selected for brain expansion during the Pleistocene. With wiring so geared towards sharply valuing the present over the future (what your econo-humans call `steep discount rates'), it was somewhat to be expected that the oil and gas would predominantly be used as quickly as possible once found. What has surprised us, is how little of this energy has been spent building infrastructure that will sustain your species once the fossil remains fully deplete. Of even more concern to the Talosians on our ship, is how little of this energy has been spent protecting and sustaining the other species that did not win the fossil lottery. In fact, it seems some historical roles have been reversed.

Role Reversal


Talosians have much knowledge of things, but it is our policy not to interfere with other planets own evolutionary processes. Even this correspondence to www.theoildrum.com is a borderline violation of our Central Committees' bylaws, but as First Talosian, and a childhood dreamer of Earths beauty and diversity, I have chosen to share some of our thinking, with the intent that it might influence people to view Earths' situation with a slightly different lens - perhaps lessening their discount rate and thinking more of the future. Our long lives make our brains run more like computers (zero discount rates), as opposed to drug addicts (very steep discount rates). Without trying to label or judge human value systems, we have come up with the following observations of planet earth and her supply and demand situation for energy. Let us proceed.


ENERGY


99% of the species ever to live on planet earth are no longer with you - their 'technology' was not adequate to supply sufficient usable energy as their environment changed. This is what faces human systems now, but of all, is the simplest problem to address. Energy is germane for the energy services it provides. Human choices for a certain way of life dictate how much and of what form of energy you need. The two previous human generations designed speed-vehicles and tall structures and a vast network of economic comparative advantage trading depots, all requiring large inputs of inexpensive liquid fossil fuel to move items to where they were needed. This was all built on your assumption of perpetually negligible transportation costs. This was a trajectory that was shaped before you were born. But it falls on your generation to recognize it as unsustainable (and perhaps undesirable, though we don't 'know' your preferences). Given that all of the highest quality fossil fuels will be consumed in one human generation (2 at most), there only exists one sustainable supply side strategy. And that is to transmute remaining stocks of fossil energy into renewable forms. You have fossil stocks of fuel (S) and renewable flows of energy from the sun (R). From the perspective of a long lived species, promoting infrastructure and systems requiring high net energy fuel sources that will deplete within a generation shows the inferior intelligence of your species (my apologies, rather, it highlights your evolved response to heavily overweight the present).

Here is how we view the energy side of your problem. Earth still possesses fossil resources F1, F2, F3...FX....where F1=high quality oil, F2=tar sands, F3=coal, etc. Earth has potentially harvestable renewable sources R1,R2, R3..RX... where R1 might be wind, R2 =solar PV, R3=hydro,etc.

X= Energy Output *(R/(S+R)) / Energy Input * (R/S+R)

To view your situation from a net energy perspective is superior to abstract economics, but sustainability of the strongest form would preclude any fossil fuel usage, unless to create regenerational infrastructures. The sum total of new energy schemes for your species should maximize for X(X1,X2...X?), which in effect is producing the largest renewable output for the smallest fossil input. For interests of sustainability, to create diesel fuel from coal in this formula is only a stopgap measure, as all your fossil input does not create renewable flows. Once S is gone, X will equal the sum of all R1,R2...R?. Put simply, you want to have the highest renewable energy return on your remaining fossil resources not used for basic needs. However, before you do this in earnest, we 'recommend' that you examine your end goals first - this will prevent 10 earth years and 300 billion barrels of oil burned attempting to create the same ends you now aspire to, before discovering the dead end. Let us continue


THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS


Satisfaction, for all creatures is generating a neuro-endocrine-hormonal balance that feels right to them. Evolution has shaped brains (through a relentless fitness filter) to maximize copies of genes sent to the next generation, and to help those genes (in the form of offspring) survive. Humans (and Talosians, and squirrels) are born equipped to learn certain behaviours easily and other things with difficulty or not at all. Humans cannot take down wildebeests with their fingernails. Squirrels cannot type HTML code. Prepared learning does not suggest your paths are predestined. A squirrel does not automatically know how to crack a nut, but once he tries it several times, he is better at it than most species could ever be. It appears to us that homo sapiens scientists are fast discovering the importance of the brain/behaviour link. If we could only trust you and breathe your air, we could teach your neuro-economists some shortcuts towards designing institutions that would be better fits for your biology.

Every day you each attempt to attain the same total brain cocktail (and this is simplified) that caused your ancestors to meet with evolutionary success (have offspring). While this may not be your conscious goal, in a world full of high energy fuels, the competition instinct manifests in planetary consumption. Such may or may not move you up the human mating ladder but is clearly a bad thing for some. As a species, you would be well served to select activities that give you the same 'total brain cocktails' as you were designed to experience, but cognitively choose them from lower energy footprint options. Humans get this cocktail from activities such as sharing, eating, solving problems, novelty seeking, sex, competition, love, cooperation, playing games, etc.

In effect, both individuals and society should attempt to optimize

B/R, or Total Brain Cocktail / Resources (of which Energy is an important one)

If you get the same feeling of excitement or contentment from building a chicken coop with your family as a shopping center with your real estate team, or playing parcheesi with your neighbor as playing a golf tournament in Las Vegas, you will be pursuing darwinian happiness. The trick is acknowledging that your intelligence is not strong enough to overcome your emotional systems, and then using your intelligence to plot a course through that neural minefield. Let us continue.


But humans, like Talosians, also can imagine a future, sometimes with hope and sometimes with dread. The above equation B / R is a precursor to what humans might call happiness(or an econo-human might call `personal utility') It is a combination of your current brain cocktail combined with a discounted present value stream of all PERCEIVED future brain cocktails. If you engage in wild hedonistic pleasures, you are getting much of the former, but knowledge and experience in the neocortex tell you that your future is being eaten into by dangerous sex, drugs, spending money, or the like. Humans inherently optimize the equation:

U=Bt + (Bt+1)/(1+d) + (Bt+2)/(1+d^2) +......(Bt+x)/(1+d^x)

which states that Utility equals your current 'brain cocktail' plus all future brain cocktails that you expect (at the current moment) discounted by a discount rate d. For most animals on your planet the discount rate is near 1, meaning they dont know there is a future - so for sub-primates at least, the above equation simplifies to U=Bt. Humans still have steep discount rates of up to 20% (meaning that events beyond 10 years hold virtually zero weight in daily decisions) but you can delay gratification in ways that earths other creatures cannot

Since Talosians are long lived species the impact of Bt of the present moment (the first term on the equation) is greatly reduced. For humans to access future thinking however, you are limited by your wiring. To take advantage of knowledge of this, you can:

  1. given a choice between consuming now or consuming in the future, you should make the perception of a future with nothing to consume seem less appealing, therefore weighting the `saving' mechanism and delaying consumption.
  2. reduce the discount rate in the equation. Since you are genetically constrained, this could occur through cultural changes in mores and values.
  3. become addicted to a drug, thereby radically steepening your discount rate so that the future seems very distant, less important and therefore less painful.
I suspect that the event you are calling 'Peak Oil', which a Talosian would just call 'half-time', will produce many humans in all 3 of the above categories. Let us continue.


EARTH POPULATION


Most thinking humans would look at the above population chart and wonder how high it can go, especially given the coming resource constraints. How do you value a human life? How do you value an animals life? How do you value other species who do not have as developed a neocortex as your own? What price is a lion? What price are all lions? These are questions your society may face - clearly one human life is worth more than the life of one lion - but what about one human vs 1000 lions? Or one human versus the entire lion species? And what is the end goal for humanity? To have the most humans as possible? To have the most `happy' humans as possible (acknowledging this might be less than the most humans). Is having 6 billion happy creatures preferable to 12 billion miserable ones. This gets at the quality of life issue and at some point or other these questions will be looked at on your world. To run pell mell into an ecological overcapacity situation without examing them will end badly. While the situation is still manageable, humans are ingenious and clever, but when it becomes unmanageable, I fear you will revert to less cognitive behavior. I ask these hypothetical questions, because our society has been through this all before. Here is how we did it on Talos (the second time around)

We maximized, using the previously stated formulas:

Bt*P which equates to Darwinian Happiness * Population

A weak form of this formula for your planet might only include homo sapiens in the population. A stronger form would assign a sentience quotient to all other species that have the ability to feel pain, joy, and experiences. A dolphin might be equal to 4 dogs and a monkey might be worth 7 dolphins and a human might equate to 9 monkeys, or some such. Mathematically,

P*=Sum (A==>Z)(C)*(B)*(P)

where A thru Z are all Earthbound sentient species, C is their sentience factor, B is the darwinian brain cocktail from above and P is their population. In this stronger form, we maximize P*. This seems the only fair way for the most advanced species on a planet to incorporate the value of its planetary neighbors. (Talos once had almost 1 million species and our drive to develop warp capability raised the temperature beyond what most species could tolerate.)

Perhaps human value systems are unique, and the continued existence and freedom of other species is a benefit in its own right. I do not know, things have changed a bit since my last visit.


PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER - THE ENDS


X==>U*P

Given the ultimate renewable energy flow, you should want to maximize the utility of the population, or given the utility of the population, you should maximize the ultimate renewable energy flow. I wish you luck.

In a generation your fossil fuels will have been largely used. It is of some urgency that you prioritize use of the remaining high quality fuels, while a global infrastructure still readily functions, to turn these fossil stocks into renewable flows. But before you do this, you must examine your end goals. Can you experience happiness consistent with your evolution by consuming less energy? Can you find ways to value the future at least a little bit more than you do now? Can you articulate what is the goal of life on earth, scientifically? Does that articulation include other life forms, that are bystanders to the rabid pursuit of more fuel and planetary thermodynamic throughput? The answers to these questions will dictate what types of energy infrastructure will be needed and guide energy investments going forward.

To a Talosian, the way that humans rank things is strange. Your daily hierarchy is money-luxury-energy-food-water-environment. On our planet, we have the exact opposite ranking system, and money is just used to purchase luxury items (like grub-drug). However, our planet twice witnessed ecological disaster on a large scale, with green life forms nearly disappearing. Subsequent generations of Talosians worked together to prioritize fragile ecosystems that now provide life support functions for our remaining population and 38 other species.

I advise your tribal units and their tribal units above them to imagine an earth without everything you see in it now. Erase from your minds for the time being all the Wal-marts, Disneylands, KFC's and concrete. Imagine waking up tomorrow and creating a world where things worked, people were happy and healthy and the environment was safe. I am not human so don't know what that would look like - perhaps the world you have created is just so. - If it isn't then determine and clarify what you desire. What makes you happy. What are the sustainable things that bring most holistic fulfillment as individuals, as tribes and as a species.

What are your values? Do not confuse your values attached to a seemingly fixed infrastructure with your true values. Once you elucidate clear values, rely on a combination of self-actualization towards these values on a local scale and on social contract theory on a macro scale. Your species has been shaped to follow rules set by the predominant culture and rulemakers. Determine your ends/values democratically, and have your human governing body use science to create the social contracts that most efficiently map a plan from today to tomorrow. This plan should balance the two goals of maximizing the likelihood of attaining your new ends, and minimizing the chances of slipping down the historical slope of war and chaos.

Determine the ends first without the momentum of the current means to guide you. Once you outline and put mental color on new ends, engage your best scientists and citizens to make it so.

I can not, nor would I, judge and choose a human value system. You must consider this and choose for yourselves. But do not do so from the static world as you see it today. Envision the world as you want it to be first. Then draw a path from today to tomorrow. And start soon.



Let us close

In Sincerity,

Ember Dyadicon

First Talosian

Nov 2, 2006 (Actually 4,588,250,000)



Post-scripte-I was charged with delivery of this note.

Everything Ember said was to convince you to save the climate so he can keep on harvesting DreamGrubs. If climate change alters their ecosystem he is going to be pissed.

Thaddeus Grommaker

Assistant to First Talosian

... I get a headache just thinking down to your level ...

Douglas Adams

Dude, that picture is a bit freakish.

I am too tied up to comment right now, but do you know what an 88% oxygen atmosphere would be like with respect to wildfires? A lightning strike would burn up the entire planet.

Ember, are you sure it wasn't planet Talus you're from? It looks like a heap of rubble to me...








A false color image of the Terran moon

Just remember that the answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything is.....42.
So.
You mean to say .... ?

We are not ...
the center and peak of intelligence in the Universe?

Scientists at The Lemming Institute for Global Human Trajectories (The LIGHT) predict that the human species is on the precipice of great accomplishments. These Talosians don't know what they're grokking about.

If you enlarge to the max and look to the right of the poser's feet you will spot the Talosian craft streaking through our atmosphere. This is your chance AMPOD! Nuke 'em. Show 'em who the dominant species is. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself and a more intelligent species.
This reminds of an Art Bell open lines a while back. Art Bell can be absolutely hilarious in a very dry humor sort of way. There was some big piece of news regarding UFOs so the question was "What if the aliens aren't here for benevolent purposes?" Art was of a mind that we blast em first, ask questions later. Despite being a typical northern california liberal, I was somewhat inclined to agree!
Is that nutcake still talking about the same stuff? I've gotta listen to him one of these days. I have no idea why I heard him for the first time, but I remember where I lived. For the first two days I actually took him serious. After that we had a fairly long engagement. Maybe 8 months. Not more than once or twice a week, though. I swear.
Firts Talosain, I have many questions for you.  But the first one is, how do you power you space ship, and do you think there us any way you could licenese the technology to me?  That way I could become very, very rich and rule the world.
To the human Cry Wolf:
I am unversed in variants of human humor so do not know if the question you pose is serious, but I will respond

  1. I cannot divulge how we power our ships but it is beyond your capabilities - if I explained it, you would then be in a worse situation because your governments would allocate immense resources towards the 'next frontier' when they are terrestrially needed

  2. On Talos licenses are in the public domain. We have a market system for high luxury goods but a distribution system for basic needs.

  3. would you be happier if you were very rich or ruled the world?
Hey Talos, I think we've got off on the wrong foot here.  You got divulge your energy source or we'll nuke you.  Even though we can't see your ship we'll just let rip over the whole of Latin America.

So come on, how do you power your ship - I'll cut you in on the deal - how's 20% sound?  With all that extra cash you could start a great black market in luxury goods back home - get all the best birds.  I also find your tone a bit patronising - how do you know we wouldn't be able to master your technology, we've done a pretty darned good job here on Earth so far without you help.

Hail Ember,
May I ask 2 questions:

Do you suppose DreamGrubs would survive a nucular(sic)exchange?

Are you familiar with the Earthling Roger Waters & his musical work "Amused to Death"? Seems like you might find it interesting. Or perhaps he has been to Talos 4.

Is it OK I call you Talos?  My brain is malfunctioning right now so I am going to ask you lots of little questions as I read your fascinating report.

Do you have sex on Talos? And if so, is it not the biggest strongest Dudes that get the babes with the biggest bumps? Do you have any pictures of Mrs Talosian? And what is child birth like on your planet?  Men on Earth have this curious atribute (well I certainly do) I like gals with slim hips - but this can cause great problems during child birth - because we also like our babies to have big heads and big brains.

I was also wondering what techniques you used to date planet Earth.  I have always viewed the way that we dated our planet as being somewhat flawed - and was wondering if you would like to comment on our planetary age dating techniques.

How old are you, and how do you know?

Hey dude I'm sorry, just read the next paragraph.  You must be totally miserable, no Mrs Talosian.  Have you ever tried one of our Earth Girls? I could get you fixed up - there's this guy round here called the CEO - he knows some nice chicks.  You look as though you could use a blonde, self sufficient farming girl.
To the First Talosian,

Cry Wolf believes that the biological consumption of ethanol is to be preferred over using it as a renewable transportation fuel.  Therefore, he may post without fully engaging his frontal cortex.  The biological use of ethanol has that effect on our species.

Best Hopes for Mutual Understanding (of that second purpose)

Alan

Ember,,

Let's say we follow your advice. We end up with a world of happy, healthy people tending gardens and playing bochi-ball with their neighbors instead of going to vegas.

Well do you know what happy, healthy people do? They f--k. A lot.  Sans modern (generally oil-based) forms of birth control the population is almost guaranteed to continue to climb in this situation.

Even at a much lower rate of per-capita energy consumption, the continually growing populatiion will eventually send us into overshoot and we're back in the same spot.

Then what?

Well then we're going to try to go interplanetary (technology permitting) which means you Talosians are going to have to kick our asses before we come to take your stuff.

To the human AlphaMaleProphetofDoom,

I assume you are a tribal leader of sorts on your planet. You ask a central question that is difficult to answer, given our inability to reproduce (our planets have opposite problems).  Likely you will continue to produce offspring, there will not be enough resources to have them all grow to maturity, and your childhood mortality rate will skyrocket.

And there is the rhythym method.

We don't have much 'stuff' and its not 'stuff' that would fit into your value system in any case. But perhaps the 'taking' of our stuff would be consistent with your evolved mechanisms?
On Talos, with very few exceptions, we share.  Long ago, we switched over from individual selection to group selection because of the leverage we receive from doing so. Your species however cannot just 'choose' to do this. It has to evolve from selective pressure, which takes a very very long time.
Thank you though. Good questions.

to call AMPOD a "tribal leader of sorts"...you've lost all credibility right there Ember.  :)
PG,

Blackwater has my tribe's back, beyootch. Don't believe me? Peep this:

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/btw2006/archive/042406btw.html

and scroll 1/3 of the way down under the heading "Breaking News for the Professional"

I just found this, btw, and came on here to tell Bob Shaw. Don't know where else to put this. Bob, what do you think? Not only are the nice folks at Blackwater aware of Peak Oil, they read LATOC.

Of course they posted this prior to me posting that stuff about them in the new Iraq film "Iraq for Sale". F--k.

that's most awesome Matt.  :)  

we already knew that they read LATOC from the Fortune piece, remember?!

not to worry...

Hello AMPOD,

You couldn't ask for a more professional group of guys for postPeak backup--If you can afford to keep 'em--I would suggest a microbrewery and a large collection of women.  A Caesar without these essentials is quickly overthrown by his underlings unless he has a fanatically faithful & highly rewarded protective Praetorian Guard.  Et Tu, Brute'?

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?  

Hey Matt, you read Pelton's book about mercenaries? I think you might like it. I read about a quarter of it and will definitely read the rest later, but I just skimmed for the details and conclusions in the second half, I already knew the stories. He does a cool very-modern history thing, but global.

I have this vision. Apocalypse Now. The Redux version. When they bring in the Playboy Bunnies. If you are an American and you don't remember this scene, you are a communist.

Anyway. This time it's Baghdad. The Tigris. And the copter is a Blackhawk with two pink Apaches imprinted with AMPOD on the sides in non-friendly-fire Orange reflector panels. No silver. Now we just have to pick out which girls.

Blackwater is in the front row. But you wake up screaming, in a cold sweat. On my website?

Were they my security, or did Cheney send them? ...

The rhythm method is subject to the "jenna bush factor." That is, there is always a group of humans too drunk, too stupid, or too uncooperative to consulte a calendar prior to engaging in their business.  These folks will then outpopulate their neighbors, thus resulting in a population full of stupid people.

As an advanced culture, I'm sure you are aware of this factor. Thus I am very suspicious why you would recommend it?

Perhaps you are here to encourage us to dumb ourselves down. Once we are as dumb as bunch of "sons of bushes" then you will easily conquer us, perhaps harvesting our organs or something to keep your dyihng race alive.

Alternatively: with a population selected via the Jenna Bush factor we will likely lack the intelligence and tact to properly dispose of the 20,000 nuclear bombs we have sitting around. 6 billion plus dumb people guarantees those bombs go off either intentionally or by accident.  That way you get rid of us without lifting a finger of your own.

Then you wait a few thousand years for the radioactive smoke to clear and come here to take the resources for yourself?

C'mon now. You're starting to sound like John Kerry. You better cool it, too, brother. Cuz when Jenna figures out you are the last Prophet in town, she is gonna insist on sitting on your face.
Okay, so this is a joke thread (more or less) but let me f*ck it up by being serious.

Unitl the Neolithic, and particularly the modern era, human populations were more or less stable for very long periods of time. From ethnographic evidence we know that hunter-gatherers have always practiced very severe birth control to keep population down. So it's complete and utter BS to pretend that humans are hard-wired to breed like rabbits no matter what.

Yeah, we like sex, but sex hasn't got that much to do with the direct production of offspring in humans. From Diamond: newly-weds going at it at maximum frequency have only a twenty-eight percent chance of conception... pathetic by animal standards. Not only can humans f*ck a lot without conceiving, they actually can't help it working out that way.

Large human families are a Neolithic aberration.

It's not in our genes. We can reach a steady-state population under the right combination of circumstances (Tikopia, or - at the opposite, and continental, scale, Australia before white settlement). Or rather, we have done in the past. Whether we can do it again, having gone off on the completely wrong track... it's a slightly different question. The present always conditions the future.

Human Franz
This was not intended to be a 'joke' thread. Thank you for your questions.

Yes, humans like to f*ck as you say, but this is not why the population has exploded. Terrestrial organisms eventually increase up to the food supply that will support them, irrespective of how much they f*ck.  The population then ebbs and flows depending on environmental conditions until it stabilizes or a new variable is introduced.

Spreading out on the planet in the last 100,000 years started to increase your population. Until a few hundred years ago, you just  filled the planets open spaces easily because of your knowledge of agriculture and overall creativity. It was not until your system was subsidized by the power in oil and gas when your population really mushroomed.

Without oil or without changing your system to local in time, you are f*cked. (not you personally, but the aggregate human population)

Just to clarify ... it's AMPOD who brought up the f*cking, not me.

The point is that environmental circumstances dictate behaviour. Under the right circumstances, humans are capable of long-term population stability.

Doom's not in our genes (alone). It's in the interaction of our  behaviours (flexible but within the limits of genetic predisposition) with the environments we exist in. In some environments, with a particular genetic setup, we can last virtually forever. In another, with the same setup, we not only wipe out most life on the planet but perhaps go extinct ourselves.

The question is: in destroying our current situation, do we give rise to another environment where we can survive and exhibit a different and more sustainable set of social, cultural and economic characteristics? Or will it be too late, and everything goes?

Human Franz,

In some senses, the sooner you have a small dieoff or collapse, the better it is for sustainability and future generations, not because of resources remaining, but because this possiblity will a)influence human cultural evolution - (cultures that died off in earths past, by definition dont have remaining cultural representatives to teach others about it) and b)the sustainable, local communities will fare better in this mini 'dieoff', therefore putting more copies of their genes and memes in next generation

Well, I guess now we know why going to Talos IV is the only crime that warrants the death penalty...
What about importing Tribbles?

:-)

Didn't warrant the death penalty. You just have to live with the lil stinkers.
Ember,

My guess is you're withholding some information from us.  This is usually what happens when a technologically more advanced culture seeks to "advise" a less advanced culture.

I suspect there is a very ugly dark side to your culture and technology that you aren't telling us about. I'm also very suspicious of the real reason you're advising us at to how to conduct our affairs even though I agree with much of your advise, at least generally speaking.

The rest of the board can be like Dave Chappele in his skit as an African tribesman circa 1650, "hey look some white people in a boat! let me go see what they want."

AMPOD - I'd watch this guy - in his bio he says his ship is above the Peru - Ecuador border but in the main post he says it is above western Ecuador - doesn't add up - he's feeding us lies - trying to trick us.  I say we nuke him now.
Our other purpose is less benign, but cannot be spoken of. Let me continue

The BEST defense is a GOOD offense !

I agree; nuke them NOW !

Multiple proximity fuse nukes in the area above Ecuador should shake them up :-)

Best Hopes for stopping Alien Invasion !

Alan

Cry Wolf,

Jackpot baby.

Here's the real deal: this people know that in the case of full blown nuclear warfare, the southern hemisphere is likely to fare much better than the northern hemisphere.

By encouraging us to dumb ourselves down via the rhytm method of birth control (see my post about the "Jenna Bush factor") the First Talosian knows those nukes will go off.

Once the smoke clears they sweep in to harvest the resources perhapse eating the surviving humans as energy snacks in much the same way you or I would eat a powerbar?

Human AlphaMale,
I do not understand your reference, but we all laughed heartily anyways.
FT,

I watched the miniseries "V" obsessviely as a youth. I'm already on to you.

Of course, you're not anywhere near as hot as their leader was:

http://www.dvdscan.com/V_17.jpg

Alphamale,

Clearly Im not "hot" as you say. Im 45 million years old and male.

In any case, we have more chromosomes than humans so mating, while pleasurable, would not be productive. Plus that leader is actually a human, in acting attire, not an alien.

I assume you are choosing the path #3, I listed in my missive, addicted to internet and not planning about the future infrastructure?

sort of. I take it you are familar with tribal leader Jay Hanson? I've spent the morning reading about "life after the nuclear bombs start falling" as per his suggestions. At this point anything to get my mind off planning for this future I will gladly consume.
Jay Hanson has a page on 'life after a nuking'?

While I enjoy a good http://www.dieoff.com/ I don't remember that link/page.    So can you share what page that is so I can compre it to me popular mecanics home handyman book that gives plans on making that fallout shelter?

start singing
I'll be down to see you in the fallout shelter baby
Civil Defence with you seems mighty grand
Just in case we're here to stay
I've got 13 cases of pere-a
We'll sit a toast to judgemnet day
bottoms up, bombs away
Tell me true without a doubt
Time is simply running out
Being a bombs an all-out melter
Say you won't go down to that fallout shelter
not with anyone else.....not withanyone else
ya won't go down with anyone else but
me.  me    me me me.

Eric, check out McCarthy's 'The Road' if you're in a bookstore.
I believe the Talosians have overlooked an important life Kingdom -- the Plant Kingdom.  Long ago, perhaps starting 200million years ago or so, they so overpopulated the Earth that they depleted their atmospheric source of Carbon Dioxide (which of course, was derived from volcanoes).  The result was a massive rise in atmospheric oxygen, which stifled the Plants, and brought about Global Freezing and the rise of the Animal Kingdom.  The dead and decaying plants collected in huge shallow seas and swamps, and were ultimately converted into oil.

It has taken them almost 200 million years, but the Plants have finally developed exquisitely precise mechanisms for the control of the developing Animal Kingdom that rose with the increase in Oxygen.  The most obvious of those control mechanisms are alkaloids such as Opium -- there are many others -- that have finally induced the Animal Kingdom to dig up the buried carbon and burn it promiscuously -- thereby partially restoring the lost world of the Carboniferous.

Talosians somehow stayed ahead of the plants.  On Earth, the animals appear to be losing the Carbon War, but I suppose there is still time if the Human Species get smart quick.

Human LNG,
Excellent summary of plant vs animal ebb and flow on your planet. You must be a scholar on earth.

Regarding Opium, it is the only plant on your planet that shares similar chemical alkoloids that are found in the human brain. Before your age of oil, (and perhaps after) it was readily available in liquid form to relieve pain of various types.  Now it is regulated for profit.

Though it is addictive (and fatal to Talosians), a human can take it no greater that twice weekly and not become addicted. Your human body creates its own opiates, and if it senses a steady stream coming exogenously, it will stop producing them, and lead to what you call withdrawal.

Were I a farmer on earth circa 2015, I would make sure and grow some of these beautiful plants. Poppy seeds at a human store of organic groceries are likely to sprout.

opium poppies grow anywhere -- not just Afghanistan.  They are remarkably fertile, tolerant of extremes of climate and altitude and of course, beautiful as well as deadly.  They have been specially developed for control of the human brain by a diabolical plant brain (the exact source and location of that intelligence has not yet been found) for the purpose of planetary control.

It is not true, of course, that opium is the only human control alkaloid -- there are others: cocaine, caffeine,khat, atropine, scopololmine, nicotine, and others too numerous to list -- plus non-alkaloid control substances such as alcohol (and here, the Plant Kingdom has ingeniously coopted the Yeasts in their quest for domination.)

Too clever for words.  I am just beginning to delve into the discovery I have stumbled upon.  Another start on this line of understanding has been published as "The Botany of Desire" http://www.bookbrowse.com/reviews/index.cfm?book_number=830

No females?  I thought all you Talosians were female.  You have visible breasts, anyway.  

And dream-masters that you are, can't you give us the illusion that oil will never deplete, the Doritos and the Big Macs will go on forever, and ever-bigger homes and cars await us all?

Oh, wait, we already have that illusion...

I'll do whatever I want with my hydrocarbons, thank you very much - you're just trying to save your source of dream-grubs, junkie!
As I recall, the reason for returning to Talus-4 was for the logical reason that Captain Pike could only become whole again through the illusions provided by the planet's inhabitants. So, it would seem logical that the reason for this post is to fundamentally point out the illusions our "tribal leaders" delude themselves with and seek to maintain their "leadership" position by getting their tribal members to seek the same illusion.
You are a very wise member of your species.
The two-part episode "Menagerie" was aired on November 17 & 24, 1966; I had just turned 11. As a historian, I find your use of this episode's rationale as very revealing, given contemporary events, both then and now. Unfortunately, depiste your efforts, I doubt few will actually get your message, as few got the message the Star Trek screenwriters were trying to send at the time.

Someone did get it:

"Sometimes I can't help the feeling that I'm
Living a life of illusion
And oh, why can't we let it be
And see through the hole in this wall of confusion
I just can't help the feeling I'm
Living a life of illusion

Pow! Right between the eyes
Oh, how nature loves her little surprises
Wow! It all seems so logical now
It's just one of her better disguises
And it comes with no warning
Nature loves her little surprises
Continual crisis

Hey, don't you know it's a waste of your day
Caught up in endless solutions
That have no meaning, just another hunch
Based upon jumping conclusions
Caught up in endless solutions
Backed up against a wall of confusion
Living a life of illusion"

Finished reviewing a timeline from 1966, http://timelines.ws/20thcent/1966.HTML
I'm wondering if there's some coincidence, some 40-year anniversary, being utilized, such as John Lennon's declaration that the "Beatles are bigger than God" that drove the author's choice of character?
That was excellent.  

But I think you give us too much credit if you think the current Homo Sap population can be tamed and taught to control itself.

Maybe 6.499999... billion lobotomies from now we could do it, but even that I doubt.  Still, I think our genes know what they are doing - or the Programmer (Mz Nature herself) does.

Enjoy with your dream grubs and please try the hemp, poppies, mushrooms and cacti (and poisonous toads even - just one lick does the trick!) before you depart.

Our other purpose is less benign, but cannot be spoken of.

C'mon, big guy.  I doubt we could do anything about it anyway (and besides, who would believe us?), so you might as well tell us about this "less benign purpose".


Very good stuff.

Not to drag anyone out of person here... but I saw AMPOD's mention of Jay Hanson above. The-poster-formerly-known-as-thelastsasquatch mentioned a plan to write an article about his conversations with Hanson over the summer.

What ever became of that? Was looking forward to reading it.

I think you just read some of it.
Thank you.

This is as good of place as any to address that. I spent a week with Jay. He is a real person, super nice and, as I expected, one of the brightest, wisest people Ive ever met. He smiles and laughs alot. I consider him a good friend, though surprisingly when we talk its not about peak oil or net energy but about neuro-economics and the stock market. I chose not to write a post about our little get-together because I felt it was too personal - I crossed the line from 'interviewer' to 'friend' and didnt feel comfortable with a follow up.

For the record, Jay and I agree on many things. Where we differ is that I think net energy (EROI) is a moving target and technology can increase what is at first a low EROI energy source (to a point). More importantly, Jay is convinced of a nuclear war around the corner, as our evolved mechanisms for violence and resource acquisition will be triggered when resources relative to our recent past decline. While this could certainly occur, it largely ignores our equally strong instinctual mechanism of reciprocal altruism - they go hand in hand, and both are likely to play a part in the global and local unfolding of events.  In his defense, some only focus on the cooperation side of things without looking at our long history of violence.

In lieu, I will be writing more on relative fitness, evolutionary biology, reciprocal altruism, neuro-economics and the demand side of peak oil and touch on many of the points mentioned in the guest post above, with links and references of course.

Hope that answers your question.

Nate,

Probably better as a separate thread but as far nukes go, I think Jay is correct. After all, had Rome had nukes are we really to believe they would have stayed in the silos for the last 2,000 years?

Hello AMPOD,

Excellent point!  Even if by some miracle we can prevent the full-on nuclear gift exchange-- How do we prevent the postPeak Global Hutu-Tutsi machete' dance?  Does the First Talosian have any ideas?  How can we get cooperation >>> competition to optimize our decline?

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

Humans are social creatures. For most of your past you lived in bands of 100-150. Only in the past 50-100,000 years has that size started to increase and only in past 1000 years has the structure changed to neighborhood, local, regional, national etc.

People in authority that speak with authority have much sway over the average human. Especially if people around you are following the person. The likelihood that some who climb to pinnacle of power are benevolent and favor humanity and the environment over their own countrymen is small.

Competition for resources (oil and gas) will be intense and will involve wars - (it has already). Cooperation can counter this on a local level. If small localities become at least partially self-dependent, and are surrounded by other such communities and are surrounded by more, you form nucleii of regions where reciprocal altruism can take root - it still will work on the theory of Tit-for-Tat - if you cheat on someone in your new tribe they will be quick to ostracize you. Strong reciprocity is where you not only punish cheaters but punish those who do not punish cheaters.

The key is who you are surrounded by - humans with the most social capital will be best off. You cannot change who you are (well, actually you can, but its difficult), but you can change who you live by and hang around with.

Bottom line: violence more likely at top levels, where competitive tendencies have already been lifelong exercises to get humans to that level, and cooperation more likely at local, more manageable levels, where everyone would notice if Freddy was riding Jimmys new bike.

There is an excellent example in human history in your first World War, where humans from France were camped a mile from troops from Germany.  The French continued to shell a certain tree in the German camp. They were so accurate that the Germans knew it couldnt be chance, and that the French were so good they could hit the Germans if they wanted to.  So, in a true example of reciprocal behaviour, the Germans aimed their shells at a benign spot in the French camp - this went on, back and forth for days. The commanding officers kept switching up the lineups at the mortar machines, but the 'meme' continued for quite some time.  Even during war there is cooperation.  Why wouldnt one side have taken advantage of the other and killed them all during this interlude? What mechanism said to them "hey, these French humans arent so bad - lets shell their tree too, instead of them, screw the commanders"?

You have both violence and cooperation in your nature. Who you hang around with will highlight one or the other tendency. As one person, there is little you can do to alter reactive decisions of Earths premier leaders. What you can do is choose who and where you make your long term nests.

Competition for resources (oil and gas) will be intense and will involve wars - (it has already). Cooperation can counter this on a local level. If small localities become at least partially self-dependent, and are surrounded by other such communities and are surrounded by more, you form nucleii of regions where reciprocal altruism can take root - it still will work on the theory of Tit-for-Tat - if you cheat on someone in your new tribe they will be quick to ostracize you. Strong reciprocity is where you not only punish cheaters but punish those who do not punish cheaters.

Note that business genius,and AMPOD fan, Richard Rainwater, is integrating himself into small town life in the Carolinas and is expanding his ability to grow his own food.

You need to source the incident. Otherwise you are propagating a myth as a lie. I don't know what it is. it might be the truth. But I've never heard it.
We are trying to assimilate all the events and information that have occured in the past 10,000 years - usually we do this within a week, but because of rapidity of events, it is taking us much longer this time to build our database, which in any case you could not access.

The event is discussed in detail by one of your most respected neurobiologists in a lecture series, with references from the teaching company, called Biology and Human Behavior - The Neurological Origins of Human Behavior - Robert Saplosky, Stanford

I don't know. You coulda maybe substituted just the name for the last paragraph. References? Sounds like a cult.
Oil CEO needs to read "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. It includes that story amongst many other stories about spontaneous ceasefires between the English and Germans, including benign displays of force. Dawkins shows that it could arise as the result of the Prisoner's Dilemma that the troops find themselves in. When timelines become arbitrarily long, tit for tat always tends to emerge. The troops that did not find this strategy died rather quick in WWI, as you would imagine.

Whoever First Talosian is could use to read "The Selfish Gene" better. But it is a fun post anyway.

Bob,

Make sure to check my post about the mention of LATOC in the Blackwater USA newsletter. You're gonna love it.  (I just found it.)

Hello AMPOD,

Yep, I saw it--Good for you!--I would be very happy if LATOC, EB, Dieoff.com, TOD, etc became the WWW's tophits.  Our future eventually requires that your fellow young adults take the lead.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?


It does. Thank you kindly, and I'll look forward to reading more of your work.
This reminded me of the "letter from the future" - you, Mr Talosian, don't happen to be Richard Heinberg, eh?
I'm with you, Radlafari. I reckon it's Richard Heinberg, but after a REALLY wild party.

Dandelion wine, anyone?

Yo Ho Ho and a cask of dandelion wine!!!

(hiccup, slurgle slurgle slurgle)

Maksh Peak Oil look shhhho mush better!

Hic Haec Hoc!

Oh boy. Change of plans: new assignment. My students are going to have to read this.

Even though the Talosian does not know how to form possessives....

Yeah. If he's so ding-blame smart, like he apparently claims to be, howcome he talks so funny?

He oughta be able to fake just about any dialect...

Alright. I've seen this mentioned before. And never been sure how to respond.

This is an adult website. Don't bring kids here. They don't belong, and you have no business bringing them here.

If you really feel it is necessary, I would advise you to start a Peak-Oil-For-Kids-Website. I would be glad to help. In fact, I would set it up for you. You just need to run it, make all the decisions, and provide all the content.

As long as I'm providing the content, I'll write what I want.

Hi Talos - decided to abandon the sheeple to get back to my pups and ask you some more questions.

A dolphin might be equal to 4 dogs and a monkey might be worth 7 dolphins and a human might equate to 9 monkeys, or some such.

It's quite clear to me that lack of sex dominates Talosian thinking.  This is why you have ended up the way you are, immortal, miserable dog haters - you can't have a dolpin sit on your knee and stroke it, you can't take a dolphin for a walk. Dogs in my humble opinion, are at least human equals - the result of symbiotic evolution.

Squirrels cannot type HTML code

We have a custom here on Earth that when we make claims we have to back these claims up with facts - so I was wondering if you could post a couple of references that prove squirrels can't type HTML code.  This really interests me cos quite often - when out walking with my near human equals (dogs) we wondered what the squirrels were up to - and writing HTML was one of the options we considered.

My first trip here was in your year 4,529,665,520, which was just before the asteroid impact that removed the large mammals and well before the primate line began

According to our records, your planet is 4,588,250,000 years old

I note with some concern that you didn't answer my questons about the age of the Earth - and now you claim that large mamals evolved just 58.58 million years after the Earth formed and that for the last 4.53 billion years we have hardly evolved at all.  You come down here and insult us and tell us lies.  I don't trust you Talos - you say your ship is cloaked and invisible - how do we know that? I still think we shoudl nuke you.

But before that - you must answer me this - would you not prefer to be mortal, having regular sex, than an imortal relying on grubs for gratification - I was also wondering if you had a prehensile thumb - that we humans find very useful from time to time.

OTOH, I have heard that dolphins are quite sexy. They'll boink just about anything that'll get in the water with 'em.

But that predilection for grubs has me thinking he's in the armadillo family -- I have a little armadillo who comes in my back yard at night and digs for the grubs.

"heard that dolphins are quite sexy. They'll boink just about anything that'll get in the water with 'em."

Note to self: don't ever go on of those 'swim with the dolphin' tours.

I think those 'swim-with' programs employ female dolphins.

I heard the story of the males from a chick who worked in a dolphin rescue group for a while in her youth. She said the males were veeeery interested in the humans who were around them. Also said that there were numerous examples of wild hybrids between dolphin species.

Unfortunately, these hybrids tended to end up living alone, without either parent species' social backing -- otherwise the parent species would end up merging ...

Greetings again humanwolf:

You remind me of my pesky assistant.

1) You are correct. "lack of sex" does dominate my thinking. But your scientists say dolphins are smarter than dogs in many ways and communicate in ways you as yet dont understand. My rankings were pulled from the sky in any case.

2)I cannot disprove that squirrels are unable to code in HTML, but since most humans cannot, and your brains are much bigger both in absolute and relative terms and you also own computers, I am comfortable with the assertion.

3)The age of the earth according to your scientists is roughly 4.55 billion years. Our numbers are more accurate.

4) You have recently demostrated quite conclusively that an asteroid hit your planet in the Gulf of Mexico and as many as 90% of all terrestrial species perished. Mammals have been around much longer than that, but primarily only the small ones that were hiding or sheltered during this event survived.

5)We do have prehensile thumbs.  They are cool and clammy.

6)I am gratified by more than sex, because my discount rate is so low, I plot millenia ahead, and reap my rewards in the future. Viewing the biodiversity, dogs, dolphins and dinosaurs (no more) gives me great pleasure. The pleasure is largely because it is something we had on Talos and lost. Sometimes we value things that seem like they will last forever, and they do not. Will the peaking in oil allow you to buy food for your evolved 4-legged companions?

Viewing the biodiversity, dogs, dolphins and dinosaurs (no more) gives me great pleasure.

Yeah, same here. Came from a family of biologists -- everything from slime molds to cephalopods to bats, they're all interesting. The little screech owl that lives in the greenbelt near our house. The coyotes. The armadillos. They're all pretty special, really. I lament the fact that another 1/2 acre of the greenbelt was bulldozed just so we could have this house.

Will the peaking in oil allow you to buy food for your evolved 4-legged companions?

I have wondered the exact same thing. My spousal unit is exceptionally fond of these intelligent quadrupeds.

Dammit Jim, now I'm talkin' like you!
You might start training them to getting used to whatever it is the humans in your area consume, fried chicken or such.
ROFL! some of them will attempt to choke down broccoli. Just because they see us eating it. But this isn't the 'dog story' forum, so I'll forego longer tails :)
Your first comment hit closer to the mark of what my missive intended to imply.

Humans dont notice day to day changes in your society. Only when viewed in a broad lens do they see that the momentum that started 30-50 years ago is a cancer on the things you evolved to care about.  Youre culture is being baby stepped to death.  Animals, birds, rivers and trees are your heritage, and the ecosystems that give you water, air, and resources are straining.  The problem is that your basic human needs have departed from things easily procured without fossil fuels.

Although the environment is increasingly being paid attention to in your media and in human social circles, its increases in value will always be a step behind energy increases in value. There is an arms race between energy and the earths ecosystems and unless values change on the local level, energy will win out on the national level, and local communities will just be downstream recipients.  

Priorities can be reversed.  If you can locally become less dependent on oil, and put value in your local ecosystems,  this behaviour can become a defacto tipping point, and in aggregate overcome or at least brake the momentum of the system.  And if it fails, your community will still be better of anyways.

Ive enjoyed your human internets forum. Now we must go on an expedition.

Ironically, I have some hope that Peak Oil will save a few of those coyotes and armadillos. Not much I can really do for humanity at this point, unfortunately.
imo that whole asteroid impact scenario is a crock of shit     prove it
Hi Talo - I see now that you do not understand our callendar.  Whilst I have to agree with you that the best approach is to count years from the begining of The Earth we have this convention here that we count years completely arbitrarily from the birth of this jewish joiner who folks beleive was born 2006 years ago - so what you need to say for us to understand is that your first visit here was 58582474 BC.

I understand from looking at your hand why you prefer dolphins to dogs.

Here on Earth, many of us guys are physically attracted to the slim blonde sub-species of our female stock.  Problem here, is that they are reported to be less smart than say plump brunettes. Is it possible that this could lead to retrograde eveolution of our species?  So I was wondering if you have studied this phenomenon and can say whether blondes are actually dumb and, if so could you receommend a corrective course of action?

I have a couple of ideas about how this could be fixed - but really need that revenue flow from your power source to position myself as a benevolant leader of our world .

PS - I tried hard to persuade my leaders to nuke you (precautionary principle) but they are so wise they pointed out that it was best to keep you alive just in case we could learn something from you.  So now I suspect they are trying to muscle in on our power marketing deal.  Woudl 25% be enough to get you in?

Cry Wolf - What do you call a person that likes some dogs and not others. Some cats and not others?
I'll assume this is a very funny satirical joke, so indulge me:

What do you call a person that likes some dogs and not others. Some cats and not others?

I like most dogs but don't have much time for cats that roam free and crap on my grass.  I assume you saw my picture of Megan - a really loyal cutie and very smart as rat dogs (terriers) go.

No joke. I knew you wouldn't get that one. Just a serious question. I've been trying to talk with both species for years and am convinced I'm making progress. I just don't know.
OK i'll bite.
first off you can forget about our species getting it's self in check without you landing on the lawn of the United nations with technical plans in hand describing how to do so. assuming your actually real of course.

otherwise to assume we can build something using some method to  replace a system in which we use the equivalent of a years worth of sunshine in a day and close to 400 years worth in a single year is to put it bluntly asinine. to assume one can do it using the only energy input is the sun it's self is insane for this level of technical complexity and population. though that of course won't stop the majority of this species from trying while destroying whats left of the plant.

again assuming your real, then your species was very lucky. taking into account the vast size and amount of planets in the universe then it is reasonable to assume that at least one had the combination of a planet blessed with rich resources, a spices that gains intelligence, a spices that develops civilization in a form that allows  technology to be made, in which the same civilization husbands it's resources from the second found, in which evolutionary pressure dictates this is the norm preventing more destructive forms of civilization from taking root, in a area of the universe where other forms of life have not developed to the same point using more destructive means.

so basically, have a nice day and enjoy the show. if you want to stop it then by all means come down and help. we aren't going to do it ourselves.

I must say I'm shocked by the generally accepting tone (with a few noble exceptions) being shown to the Talosian's

Lets review what we have known about them for almost 40 years, since the records of the United Federation of Planets fell through the worm hole:

They are, at present incapable of space travel. They destroyed their culture in a nuclear war.

The survivors of the war congregated in underground dwellings, where they became dependent on their mental ability to create stunningly real illusions, an ability that had been developed by their ancestors. As their mental powers grew, they lost the ability to use the technology left behind by their ancestors.

The Talosians found that life using illusion was addictive, almost like a human developing a physical and psychological dependence on narcotics. They became bored, per se, with the content of the illusions which they had. Their dependence upon these illusions for mental stimuli caused the Talosians to begin capturing space travelers to use as the living basis for their illusions.

If the timeline that has been documented remains unchanged, then in 2254, the Talosians will capture the starship Enterprise, under the command of  Captain Christopher Pike and attempt to use him to re-build their civilization by exploting him as part of a captive breeding program of non-Talosian life forms they enslave for the purposes of performing their manual labour.

However, after assimilating the records of the Enterprise, the Talosians will learn that humans have a "unique hatred of captivity;" even when made as pleasant as possible, humans prefer death. This makes humans unsuitable to the Talosians for breeding stock, and Pike and his crew will be released.

Thanks for providing the context for my initial assessment. The illusion drug--that's why they're called "spin doctors."

"Doomers" are realists not addicted to the illusion drug, while those called "cornucopians" are drowning in it.

I also think it interesting that LATOC uses 40 years as the amount of time/oil left to use.

Maybe an essay should be written by "Q" for those unfamilar with the first Star Trek?

Point -- Counterpoint


Snoozer of Arcturus

Well, I've been visiting the Earth for a couple million years myself, Ember -- if that is your name -- and I've got to say that these foolish self-termed Homo Sapiens are partying like its 1999 and why not? They are screwed anyway! That ice sheet they call "Greenland" is a goner. Droughts, floods, intense hurricanes, big El Ninos, heat waves, mass extinctions, diminishing returns on investment of capital and effort, topsoil erosion, lack of food crop diversity, fresh water shortages, heavy metals pollution, whatever -- bring it on. Not to mention Peak Fish. And, the fun part, for me at least, is they did it to themselves! Do you know what we say on Arcturus? Wanna have a good time? Go to Earth, now That's Entertainment!

There's always other planets to visit where you can watch the train wreck, get laid and have a good time. Just another alien perspective.
-- Snoozer

Ember, can you swing by and pick me up?
hey Ember...

Thaddeus is looking at Uranus.

lol.

First Telosian

Apparently your mathematical conventions differ from ours.  Your equation:
U=Bt + (Bt+1)(1+d) + (Bt+2)(1+d^2) +......(Bt+x)(1+d^x)

Where d is the discount rate, which apparently is between 0 and 1. Your statement "For most animals on your planet the discount rate is near 1, meaning they dont know there is a future - so for sub-primates at least, the above equation simplifies to U=Bt."

However, using human mathematical conventions for d=1 this equation would be:

U=Bt + (Bt+1)/2 + (Bt+2)/2 + .... (Bt+x)/2  

since as written, 1 raised to any power is 1, thus the denominator would always have the value of 2.

The human form of this equation would be:
U=Bt + (Bt+1)
(1+d) + (Bt+2)(1+d)^2 + .... (Bt+x)/(1+d)^x

for d=1 this would then give:

U=Bt + (Bt+1)/2 + (Bt+2)/4 + (Bt+3)/8 + (Bt+4)/16 ...

Not exactly Bt, but not much larger.

For a human with d=0.2 or 20% this would be:

U=Bt + (Bt+1)/1.2 + (Bt+2)/1.44 + (Bt+3)/1.728 + (Bt+4)/2.07 + Bt+5)/2.49 + (Bt+6)/2.99 + (Bt+7)/3.58 + (Bt+8)/4.3 + Bt+9)/5.16 + (Bt+10)/6.19 +  ....

Thus assuming that Bt is larger than 1, your assumption about the 10 year span of human interest is reasonably correct.

I hope I have not misunderstood your mathematics, since it is surely far beyond our limited minds.

Excellent, human!

Our mathematical conventions do not differ from yours (they are natural laws).  However, our HTML programming ability is encountering a steep learning curve.  We were unsure of the 'computer' codes to illustrate the math.

The steep discount rates you face are at the root of the problem, as you've surmised. And they will get steeper, once awareness of depletion is more widespread.

good luck to you!