"Oil Shale Development Imminent"

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Update [2006-6-18 10:34:44 by Super G]: A large portion of this article was cut off when it was originally posted. I have just added in the rest.

I have recently noticed an increase in oil shale coverage in the media, so this seems like a good time to take a look at the potential for oil shale to meet a portion of our energy wants (as opposed to “needs”).

First, what is oil shale? Wikipedia has a nice overview on oil shale here. Briefly, oil shale started off just like the plant material that was ultimately converted into oil, but the material was not subjected to high enough temperatures and pressures to convert it completely to oil. But it is feasible to complete the process that nature started and convert oil shale into oil and natural gas by heating it. Given that the U.S. has an estimated oil shale reserve of a trillion barrels or so, it is not surprising that billions of dollars have gone into figuring out how to economically extract the oil from oil shale.

What I would like to do here is to highlight a pair of articles that recently appeared in the press and to evaluate the claims made in those articles. The first is from USA Today, and the article is "Oil shale enthusiasm resurfaces in the West". (1) It is also the source of the title I picked for this article. The first part of the article reads:

The headline on the newspaper that state Rep. Bernie Buescher keeps in a box at home captures the allure of the vast petroleum riches under the rolling hills and arid mesas north of this western Colorado city. "Oil Shale Development Imminent," the paper reads. That edition of the defunct Grand Junction News, Buescher notes, was published at the dawn of the 20th century.

So, attempts to develop oil shale are certainly nothing new. The development of oil shale has been “imminent” for over 100 years. This should be the first indication that there are some fundamental challenges that have proven difficult to resolve. The article goes on to describe the potential energy riches at stake:

There is no dispute that a thousand feet below the isolated ranch country here on Colorado's western slope lie almost unimaginable oil riches. It's locked in sedimentary rock — essentially immature oil that given a few million years under heat and pressure would produce pools of oil easy to extract.

The Energy Department and private industry estimate that a trillion barrels are here in Colorado — about the same amount as the entire world's known reserves of conventional oil. The entire Green River Formation might hold as much as 2 trillion barrels.

Pushed by the Bush administration and legislation from Congress last year, and spurred by oil prices above $70 a barrel, the energy industry is mobilizing to unlock the secret of oil shale. As it has before, oil shale holds out the hope of a USA no longer dependent on foreign oil.

The potential payoff is huge. But I see this as somewhat akin to the vast amount of gold in the ocean. There are trillions of dollars of gold in the oceans, (2) for anyone wishing to extract it. The problem, as has historically been the case with oil shale, is that it costs more to extract gold from ocean water than the gold is worth. But Shell is developing a new process for oil shale extraction, which the article briefly discusses:

Shell's new process involves sinking heaters deep underground, cooking the rock at 700 degrees and recovering the oil and natural gas with conventional drilling. Early results are promising, says Terry O'Connor, a vice president in the oil giant's unconventional resource division. But, he admits, "no one has been able to develop oil shale on a commercially sustainable basis." Shell has four more years of research here before it will know if it has the answer.

U.S. Sen. Pete Domenici, R-N.M., who heads the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, was less cautious at a tour of Shell's test site Wednesday: "This is not pie in the sky. It's real this time."

Here we have Shell saying it will be four years before they know the answer, but Sen. Domenici is already saying “it’s real this time”. However, there are some things we can investigate, and the other article gets into a bit more depth on the problematic areas. The Colorado Springs Business Journal recently published "Oil Shale Exploration Near Rangely: Bonanza or Bust?" (3) The article quickly frames the debate:

Shell Oil is attempting to wring oil from the rocks in the Green River Formation near Rangely. If successful, supporters say the oil shale could supply the nation's energy for decades; detractors claim it's expensive, inefficient and environmentally hazardous.

The article went on to describe the Shell process in greater detail:

Despite a century of trying, and $10 billion in investment, oil shale currently provides an infinitesimal .0001 of world energy, said Randy Udall, director of the Community Office for Resource Efficiency in Aspen. The (Shell) technology is incredible - incredible in an insane way, incredible in a fantastic way, maybe both.

Shell decided that previous efforts to exploit oil shale used too much energy, too much water and displaced too much land. Instead of taking rock out of the ground, heating it inside enormous retorts and releasing unstable hydrocarbons that must immediately be refined into oil, Shell plans to do something different, said Jill Davis, public relations director for the Shell Mahogany project.

Imagine a football field, Udall said. Now, imagine that they freeze the perimeter of the field to about 2,000 feet deep. Then, they take the water out of the middle of the field. Once the water is removed, they will drill wells 30 to 40 feet apart, and insert long electric heaters. Shell then plans to heat the rock to about 700 degrees Fahrenheit, and keep it that hot for three years - completing the work that nature would have done if the oil shale had been buried deeper, Udall said.

I have to admit that this sounds insane. Heating up rock to 700 degrees Fahrenheit and maintaining that temperature for 3 years sounds incredibly inefficient. However, I try to keep an open mind about these things, despite my skepticism. Previous efforts to extract oil from oil shale involved digging the oil shale up, retorting it, and then replacing the processed shale. This is similar to the processing of tar sands, with the environmental concerns that go along with that process.

But Shell says that despite estimates that the process is very energy intensive, it has a positive EROEI:

To do it on a large scale you'd need a power plant larger than any power plant in the history of Colorado. And you'd need a new power plant for each 100,000 barrel increment. Davis says estimates about power plants and energy costs are premature because Shell has not decided to take its experiments to a commercial level. We are not releasing what our power needs would be, she said. So anything coming from opposition would be estimates. But, when you compare how much energy is spent - apples to apples, BTUs to BTUs - you get 3.5 more energy units out of the oil shale than you put in through the process. Davis said those figures come from coal-fired electricity, off the grid. But Shell hasn't decided how to create the electricity that would be used on a commercial project.

An EROEI of 3.5 is not great, but it is comparable to tar sands. But how is that EROEI defined? Is it based on the actual electricity used to heat the field? Or is it based on the coal used to make the electricity? That distinction is very important. If it is based on the electricity used, then we must take into consideration the energy efficiency of turning coal into electricity. That is only around 30%, so that would reduce the “net” EROEI down to about 1. Proponents might argue that this doesn’t matter, since you are taking something that can’t be directly used as transportation fuel – coal – and turning into a usable liquid fuel. I have seen this argument applied to producing ethanol from corn using coal as the heating source.

I strongly suspect that the net EROEI is around 1 or less. Why? Because if the overall EROEI was 3.5, the U.S. would probably already be exploiting oil shale instead of depending on Canada to develop their tar sands. The EROEI of tar sands is in the 2-3 range, and due to the similarities of the process, the capital costs should be comparable. So, I am left to conclude that the EROEI of oil shale is poor compared to tar sands.

Shell claims that their process is economic when oil prices are above $30/bbl. (4) However, it is always important to note that this is a moving target – especially with a low EROEI process. A process with a low EROEI by definition is very susceptible to increases in the cost of the energy inputs, and $30/bbl presumes that the price of the energy inputs is not increasing along with the cost of oil.

It is important to note that the EROEI calculations also don’t take into consideration the steps that will be required to protect the environment. Shell is just now getting ready to do those experiments:

The success (of the pilot studies) means Shell is moving to the next area: testing a freeze wall to keep oil from contaminating ground water. We're moving ahead, but we want to protect the environment, she said. We'll be testing on a larger scale on our private property, and we'll know the results within 18 to 24 months. That will give us more confidence to go forward.

Mitigating ground water contamination will certainly lower the EROEI beyond that of just extracting the oil. The article goes on to explain how long this test will last, and gives an estimate of what would be required to produce just a fraction of current U.S. oil usage:

Shell's next tests will be determining ways to protect the groundwater: Udall's frozen football field. Construction of the freeze wall is expected to be completed by 2007, and the experiment will run for 13 years, according to Shell's web site, www.shell.com/us/mahogany .

But with today's technology, the potential energy comes with a steep price, says Udall and others who are opposed to producing oil from shale. The energy required is a 'gigabunch,' Udall said. To produce 100,000 barrels a day, would require raising the temperature of 700 billion tons of shale by 700 degrees Fahrenheit. How much coal, how many power plants? One million barrels a day would require 10 new power plants, five new coal mines. Given the expenditure of energy just to get the kerogen out of the rock, oil shale is a poor contender to solve the nation's energy problems, Udall said.

Call me a skeptic. Current U.S. oil usage is over 20 million barrels a day, and it would require 10 new power plants and five new coal mines to replace less than 5% of our consumption. Add to that a multi-billion dollar capital expenditure, increased greenhouse gas emissions, and a process with a marginal EROEI. Consider that we could “create” the same amount of oil by simply cutting consumption by 5%. It seems to me that enacting conservation policies would be far more cost effective than developing oil shale.

References

1. Oil shale enthusiasm resurfaces in the West, USAToday.com, June 1, 2006.

2. Seas hoard treasure; bugs have green, skinny hearts, USAToday.com, March 25, 2005.

3. Gillentine, Amy, Oil Shale Exploration Near Rangely: Bonanza or Bust?, The Colorado Springs Business Journal, June 9, 2006.

4. Shell's Ingenious Approach to Oil Shale is Pretty Slick, Rocky Mountain News, September 3, 2005.

thought i only had to do this on irc
the article cuts at
The article wen
Good catch. I just fixed it.
I guess here at TOD we have to address these same issues every 6 months or so for those new individuals who haven't been involved in the previous discussions.  Sometimes it does seem like a game of "Whack-a-mole" every time these issues come up again.  

I think we need to add articles about oil shale, tar sands, renewables, ethanol, etc. to the TOD tab titled "First time here?"

Before I found TOD I started a series of blog posts at Belly of the Beast about all of the supposed technologies that were potentially going to save us from Peak Oil. The first one was called "Oil Shale will Save us".

There are also numerous comments on Shell's process at this previous TOD post called Denver Post: Oil shale may be fool's gold

Steve Mut, Shell's managing director for its oil shale progam stated at the ASPO-USA conference last November in Denver stating the following (as reported by TOD's Stuart Staniford:


In response to questions, Steve guesstimated that oil shale production would still be pretty negligible by 2015, but might, if things go really well, get to 5mbpd by 2030. He thought the chance of getting to 10mbpd was very tiny. If oil prices went to $100/barrel, there might end up being a trillion barrels of reserves recoverable.


This is the Shell's main cheerleader for their technology, so take his estimates with a grain of salt.  But even if we took them at face value, 5 mmbopd by 2030 is a drop in the bucket.  Even according to Daniel Yergin we will be past the Peak by then.  

To every investor I meet I tell then not to invest one single dime on oil shale.  It is truly "Fools Gold".

Under U.S. securities laws, executives and spokespersons for publicly traded companies, like Shell, must be extremely careful in what they say to the investing public.  The penalities for making false or misleading statements can be enormous.  Consequently, the statements made by this Shell executive were either completely straitforward or likely a bit pessimistic on the prospects for Shell's technology in order to avoid shareholder suits.  

This fellow's remarks were lawyered up accordingly, and should not be considered to be cheerleading by any stretch of the imagination unless the speaker has gone completely off the reservation.  

The cheerleaders in the whole scheme are analysts and brokers employed by the various and numerous investment and brokerage houses.

Ah shale oil - they should rename it snake oil (a mere 2 consonant change).

I too have bagged shale oil before - and I agree with Robert that the EROEI is likely to be 1 or less.

http://peakenergy.blogspot.com/2005/08/question-of-shale.html

Quoting M King Hubbert:

You read about "oil from shale", right? You heard about 1,000 billion barrels of oil out west? Don't get excited, it's going to stay there. Dr. Hubbert told the Senate Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs it wouldn't work, three years ago this month.

It really sounds simple. You "simply" dig up such enormous quantities of shale (1.88 million tons a day,) that it's equal to digging a Panama Canal every week. You crush it fine and heat to 1,100 degrees in a retort to boil off the oil locked in the rock. Then you get rid of the rock. Only now it's turned caustic and has increased in bulk by 20% to 33%. So you back-fill the leftovers, called tailings, into the hole you dug it out of. Since you still have a lot left over, you dump it into the empty scenic canyons of the west. To do this you need to grab off 89% of the undeveloped water of Colorado and Utah and half of Wyoming's. Oh yes, and you turn the Colorado River system into alkaline salts which means you wreck the agriculture in Colorado, Arizona and southern California. What will this get you? 1-1/2 million barrels of oil a day out of the 17 million per day that the U.S. is using!

A news item in the Milwaukee Journal of August 29, 1976,25 says that the last of the oil shale development companies, Standard Oil, Gulf, Shell and Ashland, have walked away from the projects in Colorado and Utah, asking the Department of the Interior to release them from paying any more on their leases. Standard and Gulf have already paid $126 million of the $210 million they bid, and Shell and Ashland have paid about $70 million of the $117.8 million they bid. You have to admit they tried, really tried and they spent a big buck to make it work, but it won't.

I guess we can grow indefinitely.

Yea, shale oil!

We can keep growing the economy, the population, the size of our vehicles.

Weeeeeee!

Who needs to worry about global warming, overpopulation, soil degredation, air pollution, population pressure, ocean desertification, land desertification, shrinking aquifers, when we got the smarts (hyuck hyuck) to bring shale oil online.

Yup. So long as we got that whole fossil fuel thing for our ridiculous autocentric economy sussed out, the rest should just fall in line, 'cause we all know that cars have nothing to do with all those other problems. Nope. Those cars exist outside of physics. See, now stay with me here 'cause I gotta use some of that G. W. Bush intullectual reasoning to pull this off, cars are MAGIC. Or, maybe they are like intelligent design, they just sort of were put here by some super-duper nerd with a cosmic pocket-protector, the ole immaculate industrial process!!

Yup. Don't worry people. We gots plenty of fuel for our holy automobile. No, put away any thoughts of having to do without, the automobile god will be appeased.

Why? 'Cause we is such smart people.

Just ask G.W. Bush. Remember how he set us all straight on global warming?

So, yet again, the beautiful Western Slope of Colorado is poised to become a national sacrifice zone so there can be a billion people in the United States sitting in traffic jams in Ford Expeditions.

Look, I'll happily go back to horses just to help save the beauty of the West.


Cherenkov,

Your points are well taken, but a bit of a rant....and once more, like so many people, you confuse several fundamental intellectual positions into one "fusion" argument:

  1.  We can discuss whether oil shale will work, and at what cost (environmentally, economically, etc.)
  2.  Or we can discuss whether even if it will work on a large scale, it is morally and asthetically right to do it.

Those are completely different arguments.  It's the same case with the car:  Try a thought exercise:  Suppose a clever technician could create a car that used ZERO ENERGY  (we don't know how, but just suppose) made no pollustion, and the materials in building the car could be recycled, so that 99.9% percent of the raw materials could be re-used to make yet another car...no waste.

Would "The Car" be a morally acceptable choice then?  Or could a claim be made (perfectly valid) that in all of human history, cars are a recent oddity, and that humans are socially, spiritual, asthetically and morally damaged by being able to travel long distances at relatively high speeds in comparison to history. This would be an asthetic and moral decision, having nothing to do with the technology of the car.

So it is with several oil alternatives.  Many of those who find technical advance a hateful thing seem to most terrified that solutions can be found!

Take an example:  The Amish community have never tried to make the case that cars and modern technology does not work.  They simply take the moral position that modern technology is morally corrupting. It is their right to take this position.

It is NOT in any way a technical argument, however.

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

To Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout,

Hmm. Perpetual motion. Nice thought experiment. However, this sort of strawman argument is precisely why western civ is in such trouble. The techies are constantly promising silly crap like your perpetual motion car. Just imagine if we could all have our own personal aircraft! Soon nuclear energy will make electricity too cheap to meter! Dioxin is harmless! Asbestos is good for your baby's sleeper! Don't worry, we'll fix that little thalomide baby with these really keen artificial limbs!

But the comments I make earlier still hold. This issue is not if we can do this ridiculous thing, the issue is should we given that a continuation of this environment destroying technology will continue to destroy the environment.

I've got news: no environment, no humans.

I make the argument that cars do work. So what? They work to destroy the environment. As to whether it is a technical argument, of course it is a technical argument. The technical aspects of so-called advances in society are destroying the natural world without which we cannot live. TECHNICALLY, that would be a really stupid thing to do, no matter how cool the tech may be.

Think outside the box, the self-limiting box the techies love to create. Think in terms of systems, planetary systems, not the niggling little worries about whether we should kill the planet with THIS cool automobile or THAT cool automobile.

Here is a thought experiment, think of a world without the car. Ahhhhhh. See? So pleasant, so calm.

I have already detailed why continued use of fossil fuel will be a spectacularly dumb thing to pursue. That covers point one. I have no doubt that someone will come up with a way to use it. None. But why do so? Why keep the human factory going? Do we need to continue to grow? Do we need more humans? Do we need more autos, clean or otherwise? Can you see that the environmental footprint of the automobile is immense and destructive?

As far as the second part, separating morality from can-do-itness is the bane of western civ. So, you would have me believe that we should separate the two. It's okay to research Cyklon-B so long as we don't talk about what it does to people in "showers." It is okay to talk about the technical aspects of GM corn as long as we ignore the morality of peasant farmers having their fields contaminated. Waterboarding is okay as long as we don't examine the morality.

Yeah, I can see why it is so important to separate morality from our little technical projects. Wouldn't want to have to think about consequences or some such wooly-headed idea.

Hateful? Saving millions of people from the inanity of our techno-civ is hardly hateful. Not that it will happen. Too much money to be made in murder. Look at war, look at refugees in Sudan, look at our system of destroying whatever we need to in order to insure our way of life.

Our idiotic healthcare system is a fine example. You did know that people without insurance pay as much as ten times as much for the same service as the insured? All that technology and we ration it. We essentially let people die in order to enrich the insurance companies. All that technology and we let people die. Nope, don't look at the morality, because It will only make you not want to look in the mirror.

The other night I saw a reprise of a 60 Minutes interview with Mel Brooks. He was talking about his show the Producers, the show that features such fun songs as, "Springtime for Hitler."

Asked why he wrote something like that, something that seemed to make light of such a dramtically awful and scary subject, he said he did it because it is the only way to deal with such dreadful people. To kill them would be to become them. To ignore them would enbolden them. But, to laugh at them, to point and laugh at them and get the rest of the world to do so, now that is accomplishing something.

I am now pointing and laughing at the people who believe that we can tech our way out of this crisis. They are unknowingly acting as Fuhrers leading the world down a really bad and destructive path. They think they are doing right by the world, but they are not. Physics pretty much puts the kabosh on that.

So, I encourage everyone to point and laugh at the techies. Their illogical ways need to be drowned out with laughter.

Cherenkov

You covered so many ideas and positions that it would be impossible to stay up,so just let me return to one of your sentences which essentially says it all...
"Here is a thought experiment, think of a world without the car. Ahhhhhh. See? So pleasant, so calm."

That is potentially true (although lack of cars in no way ASSURES a pleasant, calm world).  But, of course, it also posits another set of problems.  Two of my three living sisters live hundreds of miles from me.  So a world without some type of transport would mean that I would probably never see them again.  Of course, we could say, well, we will use trains.  I have nothing against that, but of course, trains are not "So pleasent, so calm" either....they are large, consume metal, consume labor to build, consume fuel of some kind...and will in the end result in consumption of at least some resources.

Your other interesting sentence, "Yeah, I can see why it is so important to separate morality from our little technical projects. Wouldn't want to have to think about consequences or some such wooly-headed idea."

Some may feel that way, but that was decidedly NOT what I was saying in any way.  But giving up technology is a moral choice with real consequences.  Just tonight, I spen 5 hours laying on my back in an emergency room with serious blood pressure issues.  Without the technology to try to cope with this problem, I would for all practical purposes be gone from this world, and "peak oil" or "carbon release" would not trouble me.

Before this century, life really was "brutish and short".  Suffering was MUCH more commonplace in all locations in the world, and options were few, except for the very wealthy.  Saying that we should STOP technical development is indeed a very, very cruel blow to inflict on somebody else (and most folks who say it still have cars, TV's, computers (including access to TOD! :-), air conditioned homes, and central heating.  It is easier to say we should stop technology, as long as someone else has to give it up  (I have spoken before about the elitism implied in many of the "no fossil fuel, no carbon, no tech" arguments.  It is, to say the least, extremely disturbing)

If you say to me, "All scientific indications are that carbon release should be reduced by X, and that fossil fuel should be reduced by X to achieve this, unless non carbon release energy can be used, indicating a possibility to X reduction in fossil fuel....", then we are simply arguing about the value of X...this is a technical discussion, and it DOES take in the moral discussion (i.e., that humans and the environment will suffer if we exceed X), and does not simply dismiss the suffering of humans.

On the other hand, if someone says, "I demanb 0% percent carbon release, and I don't care who has to suffer to achieve it!", that would be a moral position and could be seen as no more moral than "release the carbon, I want to drive!"

W.H. Auden once said that the measure of any culture, (and he meant all the way back before the oil age) was, "Variety achieved with Unity retained."

Such it will be with the post fossil fuel era, and the future.  It is human nature not to accept less that the most that can be sustainably achieved.  The argument, and it is at THE VERY HEART of decisions being made RIGHT NOW, is what can be sustainably achieved?  

So, there are those who can point and laugh all they wish.  As long as they are still driving, using electricity, and on TOD, it will be assumed that they mean for "some one else", the proverbial "they" to give up any hope at variety of life so they can continue to live the way they please.  It will be seen as elitism.....so just stay out of the street while pointing and laughing or there is a risk of being run over!

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout


By the way.....

By the way....

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/06/us_oil_consumpt.html

According to BP's just-released Statistical Review of World Energy 2006, consumption of oil in the US dropped 0.16% in 2005 from the year before, declining from an average of 20.732 million barrels per day (mbpd) to 20.655 mbpd.

Global consumption of oil, however, increased 1.3% from 2004 to 2005, climbing from 81.444 mbpd to 82.459 mbpd. US share of global consumption thus dropped from 25.46% to 25.05%.

The 2005 decline is US consumption was the first since 2001, when it dropped 0.27% to 19.649 mbpd from the year before.

China, the second-largest consumer of oil behind the US, saw its consumption climb 2.9% from 6.772 mbpd to 6.988 mbpd. Japan, in third place, also increased its oil consumption 1.4% from 5.286 mbpd to 5.360 mbpd.

....and the U.S. still has so many tricks up it's sleeve to cut production, we haven't even began to scratch the surface, and without hurting peopeles lives  (in fact, as they reduce fuel consumption, they will start to realize that their life is better than before)....you ain't seen nothing yet! :-)

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

It was the warm winter in North America, not conservation, substitution, ingenuity or anything.
Free the rest of the article please, guys!
Before this century, life really was "brutish and short".  Suffering was MUCH more commonplace in all locations in the world, and options were few, except for the very wealthy.  Saying that we should STOP technical development is indeed a very, very cruel blow to inflict on somebody else

I've heard this hackneyed argument so many times it makes me wanna barf! Roger, I would really expect better of you. Sure there are nice things that technology delivers to us, I'm not denying that. But.... the "nasty, brutish and short" notion comes from the so called 'dark ages' and not from pre-agricultural human societies where there is actually solid evidence that indicates people were often healthier than their agricultural descendants.

I don't fall into the 'technology is BAD' camp, nor do I fall into the opposite camp of 'life nasty, brutish and short without technology.' Why can't someone acknowledge the dark side of technology without getting bashed like this.

If there is any camp I'm in, to be brutally hontest with all and with myself, it's the 'have our cake and eat it too' camp. Much simpler life-style with certain essential technologies. They can be extremely simple technologies. We don't need 99% of the technology we have today to enjoy avg. life expectancies equal to or better than we have in the US (several countries with simpler tech. bases already do this).

Anyway, end of this rant.

I think that most of would agree that we are happy to let others live any life style they choose, but if they try to force the rest of us the live the same life style then things are going to get very exciting.
I have the highest respect for the Amish, but I would not want to live that way myself.
It's called "Freedom", and thank God we have that here in the USA (at least for a little while longer?)
Economics will force a change in your lifestyle more than some "Other".  

Those farmers that go to a lower energy/lower fuel type farming will do well.  Those that demand to do "farming as usual" will need more loans, debt, and will eventually leave farming (except perhaps as farmhands).

Price ammonia fertilizer.  Tell me that a smart farmer is not trying to figure out how much to cut back.

If you are not looking for what is the smallest piece of farm equipment that will "do the job", then you may not die a farm owner.

(My grandfather got some ribbing about his Ford Ranger, loaded with hay bales one level above the top of the cab, and three more bales on top of that to hold them in place.  He started life as a sharecropper in the hills of Kentucky and died owning 800 acres of Kentucky bluegrass free & clear.  He was always critical of farmers that spent too much on equipment that "couldn't pay it's way" and was "more for show").

Well, I was a lifetime subscriber to Mother Earth News back in the 60's and 70's - Until the owners sold to a new owner and they said "Guess what, we aren't going to honor your lifetime subscription". The new owner is now trying to con people into lifetime subscriptions again. Once burned twice shy.
Anyway, that will give you some idea of what my outlook is on farming. I would agree that loans and debt are a good way to get yourself out of farming (or anything else) I don't own a vehicle I didn't pay cash for and while they are all 30+ years old I can still do all the maintainence on them easily myself (which you can't do with the "new cars". Rebuilt the engine and transmission in my 77 pickup 2 years ago. Just finishing dong some major work on my '62 VW Beetle and should have it back on the road in a week or two. Had a new VW convertible in '62 and just had to have another VW so I can listen to the sound of the engine going down the road <smile>.
Modern "Summertime" farmers that only grow grain crops are going to have some problems in the future I think. The "old ways" of keeping a variety of livestock on the farm will have to return. And then you have manure to fertilize the fields for free. Also, it is a lot more effieient to raise cattle on grass pasture than to raise them in a feed lot and grow corn and haul it and process it into feed and then have to dispose of the "hazardous waste" (manure) by hauling it somewhere to dump it.
I think you grandfather and I would have agreed on most things about farming. Especially on getting your farm paid for and then NEVER putting a mortgage on it again. Darn double digit increases in property taxes are more than enough to contend with.
Mowing your lawn with sheep and chickens is a lot more energy efficient than mowing with a riding lawn mower. (After you put up the fencing) City folks will have to go back to - Push Mowers! Remember them. I still  have a couple that I am rebuilding - Just in case <BG>
Have a nice day!
Amen!!!  

Thanks for the rant;    et

Sorry to have to disillusion you, but life really was short, brutish and boring until the advent of modern civilzation. Read a few archeological analyses of digs in ancient cemetaries before you try to foist off the noble savage stuff on us.
   A great modern ongoing example is the ongoing civil waranarchy in Liberia and the Congo. Life expectancy has declined to 37 years according to the World Health Organization and the region is infested with child armies and tribal warfare with solid rumors of cannibalism and slavery.
Not trying to foist off any 'noble savage' stuff. There is simply quite a lot of data from various places and times indicating that in many cases pre-agricultural peoples had healthier diets and generally better states of health than did post-agricultural peoples. I'm sure the life-expectancy thing was a mixed bag. Some places and times it was better than others. No stereotypes intended here.
For a newspaper I thought this was a good article. They informed us of Shell's plans, the prospects, the time line (over a decade), the need for huge investments and power plants and some of the history of oil shale.

It does seem a daunting task to get oil out of shale with a financial profit (and a positive energy return on investment).

The article drives home the point that we use vast amounts of energy and that if that energy is expensive to obtain (in energy terms) then there will be tremendous amounts of energy flowing through our society just to obtain the energy we need to live our lives.

I wonder if energy efficiency isn't our blind spot just as pollution was a blind spot 50 years ago or more. It's not that people didn't think about pollution back then but they didn't view it as a major limit on society.

Today people talk about energy efficiency and it is seen as virtuous but it is not commonly accepted that we need it to survive. Perhaps when people start to see multiple power plants being built and long coal trains feeding them in order to obtain the power they need then they will accept as common sense that driving high mileage cars, using fluorescent lighting etc. will obviate the need for those negatives in their town.

it's the same with the with being carbon neutral.

to nature carbon neutral means for every ton of c02 you put into the air you must take one ton out.

for humans, especially politicians and product promoters carbon neutral is more like fuzzy accounting.
for example a nuclear plant doesn't generate c02 while making electricity BUT to make and maintain the nuclear plant produces 75% of the amount of c02 as a running coal plant.
at the same time it doesn't remove any c02 from the atmosphere. they call it carbon neutral because supposedly during it's lifetime it will 'make up' at least same amount of energy needed to make the plant but without emitting the equivalent amount of c02.

nature only cares about the former, it's the latter that humans believe is true(and i did till i sat down and worked it out) it's also going to get us in the end too.

BUT to make and maintain the nuclear plant produces 75% of the amount of c02 as a running coal plant.

The utter stupidity of such statements is getting stronger than my first reaction to pass them by. If you emitted 75% of the carbon in building and maintaining a nuclear plant why bother to build it?!? Just burn the coal directly - it will cost you less, you will not need to invest billions and wait for decades to get your investment back, you will not need to overcome NIMBYsm etc. etc. I'm getting sick of ecoterrorism - show me the detailed estimate or please stop using frivolous statements. Compare yours to this one for example:

http://timworstall.typepad.com/timworstall/2005/10/co2_emissions_f.html

Studies of the carbon dioxide emissions from the nuclear fuel cycle under the different circumstances prevailing in two different countries show that these emissions are in the region of 0.5% to 4% of the emissions from the equivalent coal- fired generating capacity. Assertions that nuclear power could indirectly produce significant  quantities of CO2 depend on a highly improbable scenario

The consensus seems to be from 0.5 to 4% with 33% (compared to gas, not coal!) as a worst case - low-grade ores etc. etc.

Ecoterrorism is such a loaded, B.S word that seems only to be used in an ad hominem way.  Now what I mean?
Loaded, B.S. word... but obviously a true one. Actually I would agree that the word is not exact - the "eco" part is false.

The people exploiting fear (isn't this what terrorism stands for?) against almost any modern advance (not only nuclear power here) in their majority do not understand anything about ecology - which by definition is the science of interrelationships between species. IMO on the top most of them are political functioners and on the bottom are many well-intentioned, but not quite acquainted with the realities of the world we live in idealists. De ja vu, isn't it?

BTW was what I just said ad hominen? If you ask me - this depends on your part, not me.

BUT to make and maintain the nuclear plant produces 75% of the amount of c02 as a running coal plant.

The utter stupidity of such statements is getting stronger than my first reaction to pass them by.

Really?   Well, lets take a look at your cited source.

...CANDU cycle.....CANDU cycle....   Now, is this the cycle that is used today all over?   (The answer to that would be NO).

So you are upset because someone is choosing to use a fuel cycle that is in place VS a fuel cycle that has been shown to work and is not the majority-use fuel cycle?

Now, lets look at failure modes.   When the coal energy cycle suffers a failue, something burns down, miners die, or a boiler explodes.   When hydro fails, a vally gets flooded.   When PV fails, someone gets cut on glass shards.   When a wind tubine fails a blade or tower comes to the ground.   When oil fails, the ground/water gets oily.

Now, what happens when nuclar power fails?   (and it will fail because humans are flawed)   Nuclear power, due to the cost of failure, is un-insurable in the United States without the federal government claiming they will take on the upper bound liability.

I am not worried about the failures at coal powerplants.
I am worried about the normal release of sooth, mercury,
CO2 and so on.

That nuclear powerplants should release 75% of the CO2
of an equivalent coal powerplant is pure bullshit.
There is not even need of for a technical argument to
refute it. Any such use of fossil fuel would
make running a nuclear powerplant uncompetitive with
running coal powerplants unless the fossil fuel
industry would give them fuel for free out of the joy
of having a significant competitor.

I then usually get the argument that nuclear power is
subsidised with mostly an enourmous government
insurance guarante but such subsidies do not give a
money flow you can buy any fossil fuel with.

I am worried about the normal release of sooth, mercury,
CO2

I'm shocked you didn't include the radiation release.

nuclear power issubsidised with mostly an enourmous government insurance guarante

Which costs nothing.  

> I'm shocked you didn't include the radiation release.

Sorry, I dident need the whole artillery battery to sqash this argument.

> Which costs nothing.  

Thank you for making my argumnet clearer. But I personally find money flow less abstract then cost, cost is a number, money flow is movement of wealth. Cost is the "preassure" or "voltage" in the economy, money flow is the "mass flow" or "energy" moved.

to sqash this argument.

What argument?  That coal and nuclear fisson as widly implemented are poor choices WRT the environment?

Which costs nothing.  
Thank you for making my argumnet clearer.

How so?   The US govenment will somehow follow its own law, and do such in a compentent manner?

> How so?   The US govenment will somehow follow its own law, and do such in a compentent manner?

I assume that a governmnet will pay nothing for accidents that do not happen, no money is needed untill there actually is a major accident.

no money is needed untill there actually is a major accident.

And no money is needed afterword if the government doesn't follow its own law.   What are the irraded citizens going to do?  Rise from the grave and go after the government?

Eric, I'm not sure I get your point. I have not argued anything  about fuel cycles, my point was against those claimed collateral CO2 emission of 75% - a number that can easily be refuted using just common sense.

Regarding the failure point - I've often said that I grant the privilege of fear to anyone. Like any civilisation advance nuclear is a faustian deal - it comes with its backsides. And don't be fooled - wind&solar are also faustian deals, the real question has always been which deal you choose.

But if we leave fear aside, just look at the facts. The Chernobyl disaster was the worst type of disaster that could theoretically be caused by a nuclear plant, and even it took the lives of just 40 people. Of course many others are claimed to be affected by radiation, but little is hard proved by now. It is the radiophobia that created most of the harm in the public opinion, not anything showing real adverse effects.