Khosla Responds: "Imagining the Future of Gasoline: Reality or Blue-sky Dreaming?"

[editor's note, by Prof. Goose] forget not the reddit and digg buttons...
[editor's note by Super G] Previous posts on Khosla are here.

One thing I strongly believe in is the issue of fairness. I enjoy a good scientific debate, and I find that the best debates are those in which opposing sides are honestly presented. With this in mind, below I present Vinod Khosla's vision of our energy future. If you are like me, you will find aspects of agreement, and aspects of disagreement, and perhaps even strong disagreement. But it would benefit all parties to have a good debate on the technical merits of the issues.

Mr. Khosla is to be commended for presenting his ideas to what I expect will be a relatively hostile audience. So let's be respectful, and if you have criticisms, please make them constructive criticisms. Mr. Khosla has heard my specific objections on several occasions, so I won't reiterate them here. But I have assured him that readers of The Oil Drum are a sharp group of people with diverse backgrounds, and this will be a good place not only to present his vision to people concerned about energy policy, but also to get some good technical criticisms of his proposals. Mr. Khosla will be reading responses, so be sure to present your criticisms, praise, suggestions, or ideas with this in mind. Many of us wish to influence the direction of energy policy in this country. This discourse with Mr. Khosla is a golden opportunity.

Without further ado, I present the following guest post written by Vinod Khosla:

Imagining the Future of Gasoline: Reality or Blue-sky Dreaming?

I recently received the following email: "I find it distressing and bothersome to see ...... how often people assume that we need to find a single silver bullet for our looming oil and/or natural gas challenges, as opposed to relying on a collection of smaller solutions--what I've been calling the "silver BB's" approach.... I'm convinced that we do indeed face a set of harrowing challenges on the energy and environmental fronts, and that they will require all the ingenuity, flexibility, and collective effort (from public policy to large commercial companies to the emergent properties of mainstream consumers embracing conservation) we can muster." I agree.

If you are one of the people who think modern civilization is on the verge of collapse, stop reading. If you think all rich people are bad or everyone has evil or self-interest as their only goal, stop reading. People do care and while there are many people, and especially large corporations, who only care about their self-interest, there are people and corporations (large and small) who care about what happens on this planet. Also stop reading if you believe in massive conspiracies, want to revolutionize the world with rebellion, change the consumption pattern (4% of world population consuming 25% of its resources- I hate it too but don't count on it changing) overnight, dramatically change behavior like getting Americans to drive less(lots of idealized solutions I can think of but it won't happen except through legislation like higher CAFE; or higher gasoline prices, and most such legislation is politically infeasible).

I support increased CAFE;, free markets (I am not a fan of ethanol subsidies or import tariffs in today's environment and have proposed politically feasible compromises to reduce both: "A Near Term Energy Solution" at www.khoslaventures.com/resources.html) as long as we ensure a level playing field which we don't have in the gasoline market today. I don't believe all oil executives are bad and I don't bash them just to get votes for our ballot initiative in California, but because the oil interests are misleading voters in California and in general often slowing the adoption of alternatives to gasoline, using the massive financial power they have to hire hordes of consultants to spread mis-information (like the royalty fee is a tax that will be passed on to consumers when the California Attorney General says it cannot be passed along and market forces will ensure that this pass-thru wont happen - www.yeson87.com). Vote YESON87 if you are a California voter.

I am working with certain oil companies that are looking beyond the California ballot initiative to find and evaluate new businesses. The single biggest thing we can do to help climate change is a carbon tax (worldwide) or a "cap & trade" system, but I don't think it is politically feasible in the US today. Its time will hopefully come soon, probably in the next decade. I would also like to see much broader energy efficiency legislation but I suspect that is harder and will happen in pockets and spread slowly (I am optimistic about the latest CAFE proposals). I would love for us to bias towards public transportation (even with subsidies) but I suspect that will not happen easily and is not an effective use of my time.

The personal automobile is here to stay. Finally I believe that the problem of stationary power (electricity) and mobile power (mostly transportation) are different and can be addressed separately. So let's not confuse the two problems. I even separate the heavy (diesel) transportation from cars and light trucks (gasoline). I believe we need liquid fuels for transportation and have to live with coal for electricity for a while, even though I would love to see a greater emphasis on nuclear, wind and solar. Without a material breakthrough in storage technologies, wind and solar combined will be no greater than 20% of our electric power needs because of base load issues.

First, what am I invested in? One corn ethanol venture, one corn plus cellulosic ethanol venture, three cellulosic (only) ethanol ventures (all very different approaches), three non-ethanol liquid fuel ventures (next generation fuels to replace ethanol we hope), two gasification ventures (one for coal to natural gas and one for biomass), one solar, one high efficiency lighting (LED - very high risk project), one new high efficiency engine venture, one sugarcane venture, one low impact very low cost housing venture ($5000 homes), a few microfinance institutions and a few others. Battery technologies are among my highest priorities. Many of these are very high risk science projects and will fail but many will succeed too. So I don't have a particular perspective or bias other than the fact that alternatives to dirty coal and oil have an important role to play in our planets evolution.

We have to find solutions and only the ones that are economically driven will achieve substantial scale. To balance the large ongoing investments in oil, the only solutions that can compete effectively are ones that leverage Wall Street. I like solutions that the average American can be coaxed into adopting, not the ones the 5% who care most will adopt. The 5% fringe play a valuable role in buying early, demonstrating feasibility, establishing markets, but in the end impact happens when the average American adopts something. New businesses happen when Wall Street gets excited about a new market or technology.

What have I done in my personal life? A solution I believe many if not most Americans would adopt more easily than buying a Prius- every car I buy gets a sticker to be a 100% carbon neutral from www.terrapass.com and the rest of my life is carbon neutral by buying carbon credits on the Chicago climate exchange or from www.carbonfund.org. But I am not spending my time convincing most Americans to bicycle to work or drop their personal automobile. Why?

On the public debate, why have I chosen to speak mostly about ethanol? I do support solar, wind, biodiesel, and many other alternative technologies. First, I am only focusing (for now) on gasoline, not all petroleum. Yes, later diesel, plastics etc will also have to be addressed but I handle "material but manageable" problems one at a time. That is my nature. It does not say that others should not address other problems or that I don't care about other problems. I spend my time where I am most effective per hour spent. That means that some even more critical problems are left to others. For example, if I had an equally effective solution for stationary power generation (yes I am invested in that too - solid oxide fuel cells for greater efficiency) I would spend more time there. I do recognize it as an even bigger problem than gasoline replacement, especially as it pertains to green house gases. But since I see an easy path I can believe in, ethanol (really biohols which include all liquid fuels from the same feedstocks and same ICE engines - some of these are my other liquid fuel investments), I choose to spend my time there.

I do not focus on peak oil as much but that does not mean I don't recognize it as a potential problem. I do think we will probably (nothing is certain) run out of air to put the oil emissions into before we run out of oil. I am personally not excited about coal to liquids technology because of its greenhouse gas implications which I consider a bigger issue than the peak oil issue. But given I see no easy solutions to the stationary power from coal problem (especially in India and China, I am very interested in clean coal technologies for stationary power.

But the reason to support ethanol in public policy debates for me is the feeling that I can really make a visible difference and it will lead to more than a marginal change. But the real answer is my belief that it has the lowest risk strategy to impact peak oil, green house emissions, energy security and independence, while having huge collateral benefits like sustaining farm incomes, rural employment, and reducing worldwide poverty. Ethanol has the best TRAJECTORY! There are other options like coal to liquids and natural gas which are also reasonable options if one is not looking for a trajectory that leads to a 100% renewable source. Others, especially the oil companies are working on some of these.

It is all about the trajectory! The factors that matter are TRAJECTORY, TRAJECTORY, & TRAJECTORY.

There's a huge difference between people who focus on "what is", and people who focus on "what can be". Ten years ago nobody in the established telecommunication world believed in the internet because the "what was" was not as good as an alternative technology called ATM. Every telecom carrier said, "no way would we ever switch our core network". The state of the internet protocol was so much worse than the alternative ATM for telecom carrier purposes. But "what can be" ended up so much better and so much cheaper because of the trajectory it was on, such that any company not adapting it will over time go out of business.

The difference between what is and what can be has to be reached in an evolutionary not a revolutionary fashion. IP & the web browser had a useful purpose, got deployed, was used and hence attracted both implementation and R&D investments. Next generation stuff was built on top (like better routers, IP management and network software, JAVA, Flash, Dynamic HTML pages, AJAX, and the semantic web) and is still being pursued because the technology had an incrementally improving path. Both the incremental steps and the long term vision have to be attractive for a technology to cause a revolution. If the two trajectories are in conflict, the incremental path generally wins. It is the road more frequently traveled.

Cell phones have followed the same path, starting from heavy scratchy voice quality devices to being dominant today. How many of you thought twenty years ago that they would mostly surpass land lines? Trajectory often determines where societal choices end up, especially when we cannot or do not legislate the outcome.

What can be with hydrogen is also great, but there is no way to incrementally get there from what is to what can be. The most likely path for hydrogen is co-producing it from ethanol, running it in today's internal combustion engines, getting hydrogen distribution, and then replacing internal combustion engines with higher efficiency fuel cells or improving the internal combustion engines.

A more likely path is ethanol in today's internal combustion engines, followed by better hybrid technology to make hybrids more broadly acceptable, to increasing the amount of battery storage on cars to make them more "plug-in" capable and over time to reduce the size of the ethanol driven internal combustion engine, thereby reducing the amount of liquid fuel we need for our automobiles.

The more we use batteries the cheaper and better they will get, the more investment and R&D interest they will attract, and the faster the cost performance curve will improve. Batteries will get cheaper and we will use more capacity in our cars, enabling longer range, making such cars cheaper and better and driving towards lower percentage use of liquid fuels. If you tell me we should replace today's cars with sixty mile range cars (since that is what most consumers use), I wish you good luck getting in getting it done. And the energy ratio of electricity is far worse than that of corn ethanol. If we get more wind and solar we should be replacing coal plants with that additional capacity, assuming it is cost competitive.

In parallel we will see better liquid fuels, fuels I call biohols. Butanol has already been proposed by BP and DuPont, and other liquid fuels have been discussed among researchers. They are superior to ethanol in many ways but will use the same or similar feedstocks and run interchangeably with gasoline or ethanol in today's engines. Some will require minor engine modifications and others will not. But if we tried to legislate butanol today it probably would not happen.

The bigger the ethanol market, and we must move it from a blend of only fifteen billion gallons a year US market to a primary fuel 200 billion gallons a year market, the more investment and R&D it will attract to reduce cost, improve engine performance to find additives and alternatives like butanol, to make it even better. With ethanol and biohols in general it is very possible to get there incrementally without disturbing a lot of current investment, vested interests (like automakers), and natural market forces.

The oil industry spends hundreds of billions in investments in oil every year and to find a replacement it must attract the same kind of capital. The only source of such capital is Wall Street. If we want to make change happen, make it worthwhile for the entrenched interests without making it easy enough for them to rest on their laurels. Make it attractive for Wall Street. In the end I do believe the oil companies will be big players in the biofuels game.

Why not biodiesel? First, its trajectory does not lead to cellulosic ethanol and other biohols. Most importantly, though I like biodiesel, there is a fundamental difference. Even though biodiesel has a better energy balance than corn ethanol, I don't believe it will scale beyond hundreds of gallons per acre of land. Ethanol, butanol and any liquid fuel that has a shot at replacing our gasoline needs has to scale up to 2,000-3,000 gallons per acre.

Add some form of increased CAFE; (the current 4% a year increase proposed by Senators Biden & Obama seems good and even politically possible, even a 2% per year compromise would be great), better engines (we hope our startup in the area is successful and gets to fuel cell efficiency in an ICE engine but if not there are at least a dozen other ICE engine efficiency startups), 3,000 gallons per acre results in some part of our export crop lands and CRP lands being sufficient to replace all our gasoline needs (my current best guess for 2030 - see Appendix A in "Is Ethanol Controversial?" at www.khoslaventures.com/resources.html). This involves improved yields of energy crops, cellulosic ethanol optimization but does not assume alternative biohols (something that is very likely - butanol could reduce gallons of fuel needed by 25%), improved engines (easy to get even ethanol mileage per gallon close to that of gasoline, not 33% lower as is assumed by many who base it strictly on energy content), higher CAFÉ standards (likely by 2030 - even a 2% per year increase in CAFE cuts our gasoline needs in half) and other positive surprises. If all these happen our likely needs will be a third of what we assume today, and we will get there incrementally and in a politically acceptable fashion. But we don't need these "extra" improvements to replace most of our gasoline consumption with ethanol.

And then there are better ethanol and biohols production strategies. I have seen plans (not one I funded) to get 22,000 gallons per acre using current carbon dioxide sources (like power plant exhausts), proposals for ocean based dense algae farms (something that seems like a good idea) that convert algae to biodiesel and ethanol. We need to set a path that leads to revolutionary vision but has short term steps to renovate, innovate, and make money for our scientists, engineers, entrepreneurs and established companies that choose this new path. The steps will be incremental. The bigger the market, the more the attention, the greater the funding for both implementation and R&D, the greater the competition and hence a faster and faster pace of innovation and revolution. This is the trajectory I believe is possible here in the short term.

So am I over promising on cellulosic ethanol? I don't think so but if I am I don't see another viable alternative. What makes me believe in cellulosic ethanol? If the goal is ethanol production costs of $2 per gallon (roughly equal to gasoline at today's prices), we are there already. We have a number of different ways to do it except that no investor is willing to bet on these price points being viable.

So the real question is do we expect cellulosic ethanol production costs to drop sufficiently to be competitive with corn ethanol? The expected dozen or so (I have heard 60+) serious respondents to a recent Department of Energy RFP are willing to invest $60-70m of their own private money on the belief that their particular technology can meet the requirements. They could all be wrong but it is somewhat unlikely that so many different approaches and distinct technology sets will all prove wrong. I have significant funds invested in three such projects and unfortunately those of you who looked at the technology in the public domain will never get to see what private companies are doing. Am I certain this will work? No, but it is very likely that one of the dozen or more projects will achieve the cost target. The risk of a failure is much lower than the risk of a battery breakthrough to make plug-ins economically attractive (in my view).

Further if we did not have corn ethanol priming the pump, helping create a market for ethanol, getting the fuel infrastructure and FFV's lined up, I would not be investing in cellulosic ethanol as the cascade of distribution, market demand and infrastructure risks with the technology risk would make it too risky for me. In fact the corn ethanol investments we have made will make the cellulosic risk smaller as it is likely (but not guaranteed) that the initial cellulosic plants will be add-ons to today's corn ethanol plants, making them economically viable sooner.

To make this future happen this is a pretty modest risk to take compared to the risks we are taking with oil today, shipping lanes, supply, and geopolitics. We have a climate crisis and energy crisis. We have a terrorism crisis and a foreign policy crisis and all of them are linked to oil. Ethanol is a risk worth taking. And it takes us down a path that can lead to revolution through a series of evolutionary steps, at little cost to government, consumers or US automakers. Little cost, lots of upside - what is there not to like. I don't buy the argument that this will lull us into not pursuing other solutions (like increased CAFE;, better batteries) in parallel.

To address the issues we disagree on according to Mr. Rapier, on corn ethanol most of the community does not get the questions right. EROIE is not relevant (By the way, the fossil energy ratio of electricity today is four times worse than corn ethanol according to the Argonne National Labs GREET model!). What is only the "somewhat wrong" question is the "fossil energy ratio" - fossil energy in to total energy out. Renewable energy like solar is free, if one can take care of land conservation (addressed later). Otherwise a 15% efficient solar cell would have an energy ratio of 0.15! And nobody thinks that is bad.

Here, more accurate than the fossil energy ratio is the fossil energy used per mile driven (to take the differential mileage actually or potentially achieved into account), COMPARED TO GASOLINE. Even better is to directly measure our goals -(i) how much petroleum do we displace and (2) greenhouse gas reductions. So what is the trick? Most of the fossil energy used in corn ethanol production is natural gas, not petroleum so for peak oil fans, the typical US corn ethanol plant reduces petroleum use dramatically, according to the NRDC and Dr Wang at Argonne National Labs (90% or more reduction)! That addresses peak oil and energy security issues even if it does not address the green house gas issues. (2) We get moderate,(roughly 20% depending on production methodology for corn ethanol plants) green house gas reductions but as we try and reduce cost of production and make the process more energy efficient we can get 5X the fossil energy balance (www.e3biofuels.com) as verified by the National Commission on Energy Policy (personal communications)even with corn ethanol.

As explained above, in my view the only solution we can implement rapidly will have to fit in today's engines and we should chart a path for improving engines and improving fuels in smaller manageable steps without a dramatic big-step change. If we require a big step we know it won't happen. Pragmatics is what rules doability in my view. Others are welcome to disagree and spend their time trying to make it happen. I won't spend my time on it but I will sincerely hope they are successful. As described above it will probably (but not certainly) lead to the same place.

Corn ethanol will lead to other fuels but will it be completely displaced? I don't know the answer but probably not. I do think it will become an immaterial part of our liquid fuel infrastructure because of its inherent limited capacity (15 billion gallons per year). Biofuels in the US will be a 100-200 billion gallons per year market and if we have excess capacity (something I think is likely) excess capacity will be applied to bioplastics, stationary power and other applications. Compared to what we are likely to pick as politically acceptable options, the consequences of failure are small. I don't know a pragmatic solution that will get past the various interest groups that I can advocate.

All electric cars in one step is not something I can believe in. Despite incentives it has already failed and I don't see a smooth path to massive adoption, except as described above. If others are more successful with electric then nothing I am proposing will be in conflict. We will get to oil independence sooner as electrics catch on rapidly. I do hope they are successful. Personally I believe running electric cars off wind power or off hydrogen generated from wind power is an unrealistic pie-in-the-sky idea from academics who have no understanding of the politics of change and have not participated in real change. Theory and practice are often different. But I wish them well.

Having dismissed energy ratios as mostly irrelevant I want to stress that even corn ethanol from a typical natural gas powered corn ethanol plant today has almost twice the energy balance of petroleum. Apples to apples a unit of fossil energy will deliver between 1.3 to 1.8 units of liquid fuel energy out in corn ethanol and 0.8 units of energy out for gasoline per Dr. Wang at the Argonne National Labs and the GREET simulation model. There is additional renewable energy going into corn ethanol production, mostly solar energy, but that is in my view free. Otherwise solar cells would make no sense and would have a terrible energy ratio. This fact is the subject of much confusion. And this energy, being of higher octane can be used more efficiently than gasoline -some where between 10-30% more efficiently depending upon the engine. With 33% less energy mileage with ethanol is between 5-25% lower in most cases (the 5% case is hypothetical but feasible as real engines in the SAAB 9-5 Biopower car gets 18% less mileage but about 20% more horsepower. If it was sized to give the rated 150hp it gets on gasoline, mileage would improve substantially).

Even better, the ethanol production uses about 90% less petroleum so for peak oil enthusiasts it is by far the best and easiest solution. It will result in a 10-30% lower green house gases per mile driven for environmentalists. The plants one of my investments (Cilion) is building do not dry the distillers grain, cutting the energy use substantially and hence are much greener. Later they will replace the rest of the natural gas by utilizing the manure from local cattle feedlots (they are mostly building plants near cattle feedlots).
The following graph illustrates that even for standard corn ethanol plants ethanol comes out way ahead when evaluating (1) the amount of fossil energy needed or (2) the amount of petroleum energy needed.

Fig 1: BTUs Spent per BTUs Available Source: DOE

The following NRDC chart shows green house gas emission per mile driven for various ways to produce corn ethanol. E3 Biofuels corn ethanol and cellulosic ethanol are dramatically better than corn ethanol but traditional corn ethanol is good enough on all counts and we should not let perfect be the enemy of the good.

Fig 2: Carbon Dioxide Emissions of various fuels Source: NRDC

Ethanol is clearly going down the right trajectory, even without other biohols like butanol which will improve the potential of this trajectory further.

The there is the food versus fuel controversy. Why have the developing countries been fighting so hard to eliminate the food subsidies? Because with cheap western food exports their farmers cannot generate enough income to sell their own crops or generate enough income to feed their families. There is no scarcity of food but rather a scarcity of income to buy it for the poorest of the poor. The current Doha round of talks on international trade broke down mostly over this issue. Developing liquid fuels based on biomass to replace gasoline is among the best things we could do to alleviate poverty and increase the value of lands in Africa, Latin America and other parts of the poverty belt. Temporarily food prices in America may go up but long term this will be a boon to farmers and consumers in America and around the world. Incidentally, we devote 250 million acres to animal feed in this country and it takes 15 ponds of corn to produce a pound of beef/pork/poultry today! Beef use has been declining in favor of poultry and if that trend continues, we will use only 10 pounds of feedstock to generate a pound of meat, freeing up 33% of the land currently used for meat production (and lots of water).

If you see anybody extrapolating corn ethanol use to meet all of our gasoline replacement needs, you are seeing a person with an agenda. Nobody in their right mind is proposing we meet more than a small fraction of our gasoline needs from corn. Are there issues with ethanol? Sure. Today it is less than perfect. Corn uses more water and fertilizer than I like (E3 Biofuels corn uses far less). With all factors like fermentation emissions, crop growing and transportation etc it reduces green house gases only about 20% ( actually between 10-30% generally but getting better every day). I would like to see much higher numbers on green house gas reductions and less intensive crop cultivations.

Cellulosic will make all these issues much less critical - Miscanthus will use a lot less water and almost no fertilizer (after the growing season it sends its nutrients back to the root system (stored in rhizomes for the winter) which is not harvested, almost no tillage, richer soil because it actually fixes carbon into the soil (hence the negative carbon per mile driven in the NRDC charts), and much greater biodiversity. We will still have to do grass cocktails to avoid monoculture, probably more complex crop rotation schemes and better management of the land. Unexpected problems with agriculture will crop up and will need to be managed.

Likely we will have mixed species of C4 photosynthetic grasslands. Highly diverse native hay meadows, mowed annually, were once an important part of the Oklahoma landscape and should serve as models. They can provide carbohydrates to convert into liquid fuels for our cars and remnant proteins to turn into animal feed protein. It is not only unlikely that we will not get our gasoline replacement from corn; it is also unlikely that economics will support our getting the biomass from byproducts of today's annual crops like corn stover. Economics will dictate biomass density of atleast 6-8 tons per acre initially and 15+ tons per acre later to keep the collection radius small (below 30 miles probably) and delivered cost of biomass below $40 per dry ton (or about $0.40 per gallon of fuel). This will dictate energy crops like Miscanthus. We will probably design higher energy density fuels with even higher octane ratings and higher burn efficiency, higher compression ratios before knock occurs and more.

Finally on the issue of subsidies, we force the cheapest oil in the world from Saudi Arabia to compete with expensive US ethanol, while keeping out cheap ethanol from Brazil. In addition there are plenty of direct and indirect subsidies for oil. Keep in mind that oil is an even more potent political force than the ethanol interests and has many different subsidies, direct and indirect, that it receives. A recent General Accounting Office of the Federal government listed a few of direct and directly measurable subsidies. Something esoterically called the "Excess of Percentage over cost depletion" has been a $82 billion dollar subsidy to oil. Expensing of exploration and development cost was listed as another $42 billion subsidy. Add on alternative fuel production credit (read oil shales, tar sands etc), oil and gas exception from passive loss limitation, credit for enhanced oil recovery costs, expensing of tertiary injectants, and other esoteric tools the oil lobby has inserted into various pieces of legislation, (including shameless attempts to get royalty relief from Katrina related legislation to the tune of $7b). And none of this includes any of the indirect subsidies. They have been variously estimated at from a few tens of cents to many dollars per gallon once one includes indirect costs like military costs. We spend over $50 b per year defending the sea lanes through which oil passes!

But does ethanol need a subsidy to survive? NO. It may get subsidies but it doesn't need them to be competitive with gasoline at any projected price of oil within the next twenty five years (Energy Information Administration projections, 2006). But the ethanol interest group is a potent political force and if it is getting subsidies, it won't give it up easily. But getting it does not mean they need it. We have a subsidy for ethanol but we also have a tariff of $0.54 per gallon, making expensive ethanol from the US compete with the least expensive oil in the world (Saudi oil), while keeping out Brazilian ethanol.

Today, even if ethanol prices were cut in half or more to $1.40 a gallon wholesale, corn ethanol producers would make adequate margins of profit. If we did not have a tariff or a subsidy ethanol would compete extremely well with oil. And while we are at it, I should point out that cost and price are different things. E85 market pricing would be much lower in a stable market because production costs are so much lower than gasoline. If production costs are half of gasoline why shouldn't it sell for half of gasoline? Answer: because of distortion and mismanagement. Frankly it is in the interest of the oil companies to keep ethanol prices high so as a primary fuel it doesn't start to replace gasoline. In the end for any commodity, price will be related to production costs but the oil companies are in no hurry to see rapid change happen here. If we ever get a real cap and trade system like we should have it will make ethanol more competitive. In some sense I view the current subsidy on ethanol as just offsetting the current subsidies to oil and in the future to substitute for what will be a cap and trade credit.

How much biomass can we produce?

We can only go by current data points and the realization that corn yields have increased by 7X and are still increasing (expected to go from 140 bushels per acre average currently to about 200 bushels per acre by 2015). We assume only a modest 60% increase above experimental Miscanthus yields in our model after twenty five years (2030) of development and optimization using plant breeding and genetic engineering. In the only side-by-side comparison of switchgrass and Miscanthus undertaken to date in the U.S., Miscanthus averaged 16.5 dry tons/acre/year whereas switchgrass averaged 4.6 dry tons/acre/year for three Illinois sites with data taken over two years (Heaton and Long, in preparation). The fact that a well-controlled study showed a 3-fold productivity increase relative to the cellulosic energy crop most widely-studied in the United States is indicative of the nascent status of the field. At the best of three sites in the best of two years, a yield of 25 dry tons per acre per year was realized. We assume this best yield will become the average yield after twenty five years, across 40-60 million acres of good cropland that is currently used for export oriented crops. The maximum potential yield of switchgrass - based on simulations founded on plausible physics, biochemistry, and physiology of the crop in its normal growing environment - is estimated by McLaughlin et al. at 21 dry tons/acre/year.

New tools for plant breeding are available that are expected to foster fast gains. These include marker-assisted breeding, which do not result in GMO plants, as well as development of transgenic plants (McGlaughlin and Kszos, 2005). Sugar cane experts (Frikkie Botha, South Africa Sugar Research Institute; Fernando Reinach, Allelyx and Votorantim New Business) project that breeding and cultivation of cane with the goal of maximizing total biomass yield can likely result in about 25 dry tons of harvestable biomass per acre per year in the relatively near term. Megaflora corp. has measured productivities of 28 dry tons per acre per year from crossing North American Hardwoods with the polonia tree (Ray Allen, personal communication). Ceres, a leading plant biotechnology company, has concluded that available information "strongly suggest[s] that over the next decade or so the deployment of modern breeding technologies will result in average energy yields of at least 15 tons per acre, and that these averages can be sustained across a broad range of geographic and environmental conditions, including the approximately 75 million acres of crop and pasture land in the United States that could easily be converted to their cultivation without impacting domestic food production." (Richard Hamilton, Personal Communication).

Many researchers, especially in the environmental community assume that energy crops will not use genetic engineering while we continue to use these techniques for row crops. They further assume we will use marginal lands or get our biomass as a byproduct of crops on currently managed lands. The DOE estimates that this scenario of collection of existing biomass with only small change in agricultural practices could generate 1.3 billion tons of biomass in the US. We personally believe that it is likely we will use dedicated energy crops (cocktails of C4 photosynthetic grasses like Miscanthus) on lands that are currently used to produce export crops and 40-60 million acres of this land will be sufficient to meet most of our gasoline needs. Quoting form the 2005 DOE study's conclusion "In the context of the time required to scale up to a large-scale biorefinery industry, an annual biomass supply of more than 1.3 billion dry tons can be accomplished with relatively modest changes in land use and agricultural and forestry practices" (Technical Feasibility of a Billion-Ton Annual Supply, US Department of Energy Report, April 2005). At an average of 100 gallons per ton, that should be a130 billion gallons of ethanol. We use 140 billion gallons of gasoline today.

And how much land could we use?

We have over 120 million acres of CRP and export crop lands. Our default assumption is that we will use some fraction of these lands to eliminate our oil imports for gasoline and then go on to replace even domestic oil used for gasoline. It is also worth contemplating that harvested land has stayed constant as the US population has tripled and the per capita calorie consumption has gone up. Further, in the US approximately 250 million acres of cropland are devoted to animal feed production (including forage crops) and pasture for meat production, essentially all of which could be used to produce energy crops. In addition, about 350 million acres are devoted to range land, of which some but not all could be used to produce energy crops.

In 2005, 75.1 million acres of corn grain were harvested in the U.S., about 80% of which was feed to livestock (~60 MM acres; ); 71.4 million acres of soybeans were harvested, with 70% going to feed animals (~50 million acres); and 61.6 million acres of hay were harvested. In 2002, 62 million acres of cropland were used as pastureland. An estimated 20% of the 50 million harvested acres of wheat are used to feed livestock (~10 million acres). Additional crops that are primarily fed to animals include sorghum (6 million), oats (2 million), and barley (3 million). The total allocation for animal feed production, therefore, is an estimated 255 million acres, not including other crops commonly feed to livestock (e.g. millet, rye, peas, beans, lentils). Crop acreages from NASS, 2006. Pasture acreage from USDA, 2006. Corn grain and soybeans allocated to animal feed from Etherton et al., 2003. Wheat allocated to animal feed based on FAO, 2006.

Table 3. Feed conversion efficiencies for major animal food types.

Mass conversions from Smil, 2000, assuming feed is corn; corresponding caloric values from USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference

Changes in the relative proportions of various kinds of meat also have large potential impacts on land availability. In 2000, relative consumption of beef, pork, and poultry was as follows: 41% beef, 27% pork, and 32% poultry. Using these values and the data in Table 2, a weighted average of 14.3 kg feed per kg edible animal product can be calculated. Per capita meat consumption changed significantly throughout the 20th century however, and there would seem little reason to assume that it will remain constant in the future. Between the mid seventies and 2000, for example, beef consumption fell by 19%, pork consumption remained essentially constant, and poultry consumption increased by 92%.

For a hypothetical future scenario in which beef and pork accounted for 25% of meat consumption and poultry accounted for 50% - which would not seem unreasonable given recent trends - a weighted average of 10.85 kg feed per kg is calculated; a 24% change relative to the situation 2000. Devoting 24% less cropland to animal feed production would make available very roughly 50 million acres. We will also see the emergence of new practices. For example, Sweet sorghum, (currently being studied in India for fuel production) can make an excellent and cheaper substitute for corn in ethanol plants and can be grown on marginal lands with less little water and fertilizer.

Failure to look at these possibilities is a failure of imagination. We need to thread the needle between the "what is... and let's extrapolate today's corn ethanol production" tunnel vision crowd (generally done with an agenda - The American Petroleum Institute is concerned enough about world food supply and our welfare to have issued press releases on it!) and the "pie-in-the-sky academics who will dream up "what can be" without consideration for the path dependence of the choices we make and the pragmatics of how business works and what is needed to make a revolutionary future happen through a series of evolutionary steps. We should take our lesson from nature - from single celled amoeba to complex humans was an evolutionary process. It is the only way we can get billions of dollars deployed to make this alternative future happen.

It's too long. It's boring. Too many numbers he just throws around. Only people here would be able to decipher what he was saying.

He discounts EROEI as irrelevent. He uses EIA projections.

He uses increased CAFE standards as an argument. Huh? Well then why can't we? What do CAFE standards have to do with ethanol? Especially when ethanol gets worse mileage?

Why is more horsepower important? So we can be more inefficient per dollar but go from zero-to-60 faster.

He ends up by telling us the ratio of chicken and beef we are going to be eating.

There's too much "stuff" here. His workable alternative future based on ethanol depends on too many other pieces of the puzzle coming together in exactly the way he fantasizes it should.

The argument that you and others here have made well can be put forth succinctly in a few paragraphs accessible to the average person.

$1.40 ethanol. Fine. But apparently that's not happening now. In fact the current situation couldn't be more different. If that would change first, then maybe I'd be willing to reconsider some of his points.

I think he's living on another planet. Thanks Robert. Is this the first place this has been published?

Is this the first place this has been published?

Yes. I have read through and commented on the drafts as he was working on the essay. We also spent another hour on the phone this week discussing some of these arguments. I obviously still have areas of disagreement, but I will let others make their specific criticisms known.

Whether readers agree or disagree with Mr. Khosla's ideas, I think we can all agree that debating the issues is the best way to get past hype and myth and into what can be scientifically supported.

I've kind of passed on the scientific debate over cellulosic ethanol, because it seems to presume future improvement.  In that sense it is a moving target.  Name any problem, and future innovation can fix it.

Am I being unfair?

Well, I think so yes. There are cellulosic plants in production today, but they don't operate at commercial scales. They're tests. The tests have worked and now several companies are building large scale plants that should hopefully be profitable, touch wood.

So this is not exactly Star Trek technology.

EXACTLY!
"Exactly" to "[no] commercial scales. They're tests." or to "not exactly Star Trek technology?"

I believe in counting chickens when they are hatched.  In this case, I think a commercial plant, esp. with open books, would be "hatched."

"Food to Fuels"

You can guarantee that some variation of this will become known as the new, worse version of Monsanto's "Frankenfoods" or "terminator seeds."

Just as the petrochemical driven Green Revolution morphed into the reviled slogans above, so too with FTF (food to fuels). Right now biofuels are the darling of the sustainable development crowd, but that will change in short order when masses of economically marginal "consumers" begin to starve and die.

As you point out, "Trajectory" is what counts. And the Trajectory is to gradually convert food staples and cropland to motor fuels.

Imagine the bumpersticker

".....turns OUR food into gas...."

The first part might contain the name of a company, country, or even individual (if they become too closely identified with FTF). The last part might contain a motive or result, "so SUVs can drive, while people starve." etc.

If you dive into this, you and your companies will risk becoming the new Monsantos.

So it's mostly scaling up and increasing efficiency that is needed, rather than new breakthroughs in enzymes and stuff? If so, that is good news.

One thing I wonder about is his belief that cellulosic ethanol will outcompete biodiesel in gallons per acre. Currently, that is so not the case. Putting aside the ecological problems with palm oil, it's 5000 kg per hectare, far better than any currently producing ethanol crop. And what about biodiesel from algae? That's the fair point of comparison with cellulosic, which isn't quite there yet either.

Unless the problems of biodiesel from algae are more than efficiency and scaling...

But I think his rejection of EROEI is weird. What ultimately matters is how much energy we can use in total.  

The recent post on nuclear power assumed a number of future improvements, in areas like commercialization of breeder reactors, greater uranium mining and processing efficiency, secure waste transport and disposal options, lowered plant decommissioning costs, and electrification of the industrial and transportation sectors. If it's okay to assume speculative improvements for nuclear power then why not for cellulosic ethanol?

But I am playing devil's advocate. Speculating on future trends is what entrepreneurs are in business to do. Governments shouldn't bet on one horse when there's a whole field of promising contenders and new breakthroughs are announced every month. Better they should all compete without subsidies or preferential treatment.

I certainly didn't say it was OK to assume advances.  On the other hand, I think research, and piloting these things, is important.  That's the only way you find out if you have a chicken.
What I have read is that if all the crop acreage in America was devoted to corn for ethanol, then it still wouldn't be enough to fuel America's truck fleet.  
Can you do better than "What I have read"? Otherwise it is meaningless.

On the one hand, it is fairly clear that we can not replace every drop of oil we use from corn. On the other hand it seems equally obvious that ethanol, particularly if you are willing to consider cellulosic (I tend to agree with Odogragh here however), could play a very important role in offsetting declining oil supply.

I read somewhere that if you wanted to replace all global electricity consumption with solar technology, you would ahve to cover the entire earth with panels - so solar is worthless, right?

well done Jack.
Why does this response merit an editorial: "Well done"?

I see no facts criticised with no facts. Save the atta-boys for something worth reading not put-downs.

I was merely responding to Jack's call for evidence.  
and as you will read below, led to a productive discussion.  
Can you do better than "I read somewhere"?  Otherwise it is meaningless.

I believe your solar assertion, while I realize that you were using it to make a point, is erroneous.

A Google search revealed a published number of 4000 terawatts per year of electricity consumption in the US.  

http://www.quaker.org/tqe/2006/TQE145-EN-Hybrid-Details.html

OK, it's one source and who knows how close it is, but let's see what happens...

Assume 4 sun hours per day (4 hrs at 1000 watts/sq.m), a 12% efficient panel will produce 1000x0.12x4x365=175,200 Whr per year.  Take 4000 TW (4E15 Watts) divided by 175,200 = 22.8E9 square meters, = 22831 sq. km = 8800 sq. mi.  for a square area that equates to 93 miles x 93 miles.  To cover the electrical use for the entire country.

So unless the 4000TW number is off by orders of magnitude, we are nowhere near having to cover the US with solar panels to provide our current consumption (which BTW could be easily reduced substantially, but that's another topic).  Does the rest of the world consume orders of magnitude more electricity per surface area than the US?  I'd bet dinner not, and I only bet dinner when I know I'm going to win.

Take 4000 TW (4E15 Watts) divided by 175,200 = 22.8E9 square meters, = 22831 sq. km = 8800 sq. mi.  for a square area that equates to 93 miles x 93 miles.  To cover the electrical use for the entire country.

I wonder how much demand you could satisfy by covering a substantial fraction of all the roofs with solar panels? I realize currently that is cost-prohibitive, but I hope we see this happen someday.

Bingo!  Every time I hear someone talk about how you need to cover a sizable portion of Nevada with solar panels, it drives me nuts because that's not where cheap, thin-film panels will be installed--they'll go on rooftops of homes, businesses, municipal buildings, schools, etc.

The NanoSolar plant being built in/near silicon valley will produce 430MW of panels per year, supposedly at much cheaper prices than anything currently available.  That's enough panels for one heck of a lot of rooftops, and from just one plant.  It's a safe bet that if they come close to their price points and production volumes after they ramp-up that we'll see them getting tons of additional funding and building more plants.

I think it would be downright funny if all this talk about ethanol, hydrogen, CTL, etc. was largely derailed by one of the "old school" renewables, solar, that finally had the major price breakthrough we've all been hoping for since the 1970's.

Sorry Lou. Just trying to make a point. These blanket statements - about ethanol, solar, etc. - are inaccurate and don't help us to look at and compare solutions.

Why would you put all the solar panels in one 93 square mile area?  For one it would become a huge terrorist target.  Second it would be vulnurable to natural disasters (tornados, earthquakes, etc..)

I think a distributed solution of using business and household rooftops makes way more sense.  Supplement that with wind and tidal power, and it could go a long way towards getting households and small business into a more sustainable model.

It doesn't solve the liquid fuel problem though.

I wasn't saying that all of the panels should go in one area, I was just computing the total area required, since it was asserted above that we would have to cover the planet to meet our current consumption.  One of the beautiful features of grid-tied solar systems is that the power source is distributed, not centralized, which is much more robust and secure.  Also, you are generating the power close to where it is consumed, so transmission losses are minimized.

Rooftops are the perfect place for panels, and there's way more than enough existing roof space to cover that 8800 square miles.  The only down side today is the high up-front cost, and the low supply of panels due to heavy solarization in Europe and Germany in particular.  

National Geograpic, 8/05, said we need 10K square miles of solar panels, bigger than the area of Vermont, or roughly the size of Mendocino County, Ca, to satisfy all our electrical needs. Says all those panels could fit on less than  quarter of the roof and pavement  space in  cities and suburbs.

  Also, in California, at least, they figure 5 hours of sun/day; some are now starting to use 6 hours. Right now, I'm expected to be putting out 5.6KW/day; I'm actually at 9 +/- 0.3. Remains to be see what happens during 35 or 40 staight days of rain.

Rat

Your figure for electricity use is pretty similar to the one found here https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

I think at some point it will become apparant that we can live pretty comfortably with alot less electricity than that though, so we really won't need even as much generation as you calculated.  

There is alot of energy in wind and solar, you just can't put them in your gas tank.  Oh well.  

There is alot of energy in wind and solar, you just can't put them in your gas tank.  Oh well.

You can if we had electric vehicles.  Has everyone seen this?

http://www.teslamotors.com

Can you do better than "What I have read"? Otherwise it is meaningless.

I can.  Here are the raw numbers I will start with:

Total land are in the U.S. = 3,718,711 sq mi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_states

Percent arable land in the U.S. = 18.01% https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Average corn yield per acre (2005) = 148.4 bushels http://www.usda.gov/nass/aggraphs/cornyld.htm

So, 18.01% of 3,718,711 is 669,740 sq mi arable land, times 640 acres per square mile is 428633504.7 acres of arable land, times an average yield of 148.4 bushels times 3 gallons ethanol per bushel is about 190 billion gallons of ethanol.  The U.S. uses about 150 billion gallons of gasoline per year.  I don't have the exact energy conversion between ethanol and gasoline, but the amounts of energy are in the same ballpark.  So we could theoretically not only fuel our trucking fleet but all of our automobiles, and an be energy independent without sacrifice if we just grow corn of every arable acre in the country.  Fortunately, Canada is obligated by NAFTA to supply us with natural gas, so we can still make fertilizer to keep the corn yields up, and we can still eat if we can find an optimal deer population that will feed us but without eating so much corn to have an significant impact on yields.

This is looking easy.  On an unrelated topic, I think I can run a marathon in about an hour and twenty minutes based on my time in the 100m when I was in high school.

So we could theoretically not only fuel our trucking fleet...

Ah, but the trucking fleet runs mainly on diesel, which is not included in the gasoline number. Diesel has an even higher energy content than gasoline, and diesel engines are far more efficient. So, to replace the 50 billion or so gallons of diesel we use each year would take around 100 billion more gallons of ethanol.

Regarding the energy content of gasoline versus ethanol, ethanol has about 65% of the BTUs of gasoline.

I need to be careful with sarcasm, I know it doesn't always work in writing as well as in speech, or with strangers.  I hope you got that my commentary was tongue in cheek.
Don't worry, I got the sarcasm. Just thought I would take it just a bit farther. :-)
Good.  In that case, all we need to do is develop a winter variety of soybean and double harvest all that land . . .
ethanol has about 65% of the BTUs of gasoline.
Did you read that somewhere, Robert? :)
Actually this is useful. Firstly, I am happy to acknowledge that ethanol can not possibly, even in the wildest dreams of ADM, replace 100% of U.S. fuel consumption.

However, using your numbers, it does seem that it could make a difference. I have argued before that 10% of consumption on a BTU basis would make ethanol a huge contributer to replacing declining oil reserves. Even 10% of gasoline use would mean a lot, both in terms of its contribution as a fuel and as a replacement for the lightest refinery products - freeing up much needed capacity.

So, 10% of 150 billion gallons times 1.3 (to convert from volume to BTU) equals about 20 billion gallons. This is about 10.5% of the 190 billion gallons figure you cite for all US agricultural land.

Now, I also acknowledge that taking a mid-range EROEI figure of of 1.25, the net contribution to energy is only about 2% of gasoline use with the remainder being converted from other fuel sources.

My point is not that it is a good thing to do. It may not be. However, this analysis reveals a lot more about the actual tradeoffs than dismissing it because it can't solve all of our energy problems single handedly.

 

For the record, my sarcasm wasn't directed at you.  I was taking to opportunity to do the overly optimistic "anything is possible" tone of cornucopianism (if that's a real word).
Thanks for this and the information in the above post. You are welcome to direct sarcasm at me any time you want.
There is plenty of arable land in Florida but it's quite poorly suited for corn.

The average yields cited per acre are in places that have 8-10 feet of rich soil and sufficient water.

I would like to note that Mr. Khosla must agree with your assessment of there not being enough land for corn ethanol, which only provides 150 bushels per acre, as he states the following in his essay.

"Ethanol, butanol and any liquid fuel that has a shot at replacing our gasoline needs has to scale up to 2,000-3,000 gallons per acre."

Using your own calculations if cellulose ethanol is scalable to 2,000 bushels per acre as Mr. Khosla seems to believe, then it would require less then 10% of the U.S. arable land to completely replace our gasoline consumption with cellulose based ethanol.  10% seems like a much more reasonable number and something that may be achievable.

However this changes the main question to, "What is the evidence that Cellulose Ethanol can be scaled to 2,000 bushels per acre, given current methods."  I think this question deserves much consideration, because it is at the heart of the debate.

If Mr. Khosla is still reading, I would recommend that he consider hiring Jack and Sailorman as consultants to his project. They would help greatly with efforts to win over the skeptical. And their style and methods are superb. There are others, but they are the only ones whose work on ethanol I am familiar with.
This is my first post. I want to make a small correction to Jack's post.

No! You do not need to cover the entire earth with panels to replace the entire electricity demand with solar. For rough calculations... The earth is receiving an average of 1,000 watts/m2 with half the earth's surface lit at any given time, 5x10^14 m2. This yields 2.5x10^17 average watts at any moment. With 8760 hours available per year, this yields 2.2x10^21 watt/hr or 2.2x10^12 GW/hrs!! Solar cells vary in their efficiency from 6% to 30%. Most solar cells have around 14% effeciency. Thus using 14% effeciency that gives 3.1x10^11 GW/hrs per year.

In 2003, the world used 14,781 billion killowatt/hrs or 1.4x10^7 GW/hrs for easy comparison above. That is 4 orders of magnitude lower.

Maybe you meant only on available land mass? The oceans make up 71% of the earth's surface. Thus that reduces available energy to 9x10^10 GW/hrs per year. Obviously, it is still orders of magnitude more than needed.

So what percentage of land mass would be needed? .02%!!

Welcome to TOD and thanks for the post. I was trying to be sarcastic or rhetorical, which can be hard in writing. Your post and others have added nicely to this discussion.

- Jack

my understanding is that it would only take a PV panel array the size of, say, arizona to power the usa.  extrapolating and recognizing that the usa is the big gran electricity consumer du monde, it would probably only take an array the size of all of the world's deserts to power the world.  and i understand that there is pretty good sunlight in the desert....  perhaps not enough facts, but that (backing up WAGs with fact) is not my role in this forum.
-PoP
Check out the report on Xethanol, one of the companies supposedly producing ethanol from biomass. Seems they are a total sham, with no scientists on staff, no R & D, and one plant supposed to be poised to make ethanol has no water or sewer hookup.
http://sharesleuth.com/2006/08/moonshine_blindness.html

This doesn't undermine the potential of another company to do it right, but there's a lot of hype about innovation that isn't being matched with results (or even effort).

Check out the chemical engineer they quote in the article.

:-)


Agreed. I found it much more compelling and convincing than the presentation which RR critiqued to begin this discussion. Something very tangible has been gained and it has been fun and engaging to watch the discourse play out. Kudos, Mr Khosla, on your efforts.

Most of the early critiques here are kind of annoying and nitpicking. "It's too long" -- c'mon. It was written for an audience that values detailed analysis over the punchy and dumbed-down distillations (often misleading) you'd get in commercial contexts.

The pricing issue with ethanol seems like a serious issue though. Mr Khosla, you invoke a conspiracy theory of your own after waving off readers who believe in such things. Somehow, after 20 years of incentives, the oil industries are still manipulating the price to remain at precise margin above gasoline? I'd like a more compelling (or at least better supported) explanation there.

Thank you Robert and thank you Mr. Khosla for the quality of this debate. Mr. Khosla deserves very high marks for the clarity with which he presents his premises.

One comment I'd like to add is that it is not only in poor counrties that the rural poor are likely to benefit from a large increase in ethanol production but also farmers and rural communities in the U.S. and the E.U. too. The price of corn is ludicrously low now, and if increased ethanol production can bring a doubling of corn prices, that would diminish greatly the subsidies that U.S. tax payers pay to farmers while also increasing incomes in very small marginal communities in the corn-growing and grass-growing regions of the U.S.

In my opinion, cost-benefit analysis should include social costs and social benefits, and in this case the economic and social benefits to rural America are potentially huge.

I hope Mr. Khosla is correct in his vision. In any case, we will know within a few years if some of his essential and questionable premises are right--or are merely excessively optimistic assumptions. Either some of the technologies for producing alcohol from grass will scale up and work at low cost--or they won't; the outcome may be clear pretty soon, in a couple of years or thereabouts.

Don,
 The rural farmer will make no more money on corn for ethanol than they do for corn now. ADM stock isn't up 50% over the past calendar year because the rural farmer is pulling down the ethanol money.
 This money for the rural poor is the same lie trotted out every time venture capitilists  and multinational corps have needed us to vote for their politicians in the past.
 Please compare previous promises of sudden money for the rural poor to how events actually played out.
 It is the old give me your vote now and I promise wealth and happiness later.
 I hate to be so pessimistic,,but I have heard this too many times and have yet to see the working farmer gain.
 If ethanol could stand on it's own merits they wouldn't have to trot these tired lies out in front of us again.
  Hopefully I'm wrong, maybe there is a farmer on TOD that can tell me different. If so I will happily vote for ethanol just to bring some money into the fields.
Regards
 
I know some Minnesota farmers. Unanimously they are enthusiastic about corn-based ethanol. In fact (not fantasy) new ethanol distilleries have saved more than one small Minnesota town.

If the production of ethanol increases the demand for corn, please explain why you think this would not tend to cause the price of corn to increase.

Econ 101 strikes again.

 I don't doubt there are some ethanol refinerys employing a few dozen or even a couple hundred local workers which is helping the town.
 I wish someone could show me the money helping out the rural poor and small farmer now.
  This tired lie of vote for the politician that supports X and it will bring money into the poor folks has been around since the coal companies told it to the people of appalachia 150 years ago.
  Are any farmers seeing good money from ethanol now?
   We are making ethanol now right?
 
Don,
<Econ 101 strikes again>
You are exactly right..Every farmer in America is salivating to make whatever the ethanol crop dejour is. And they will grow millions of tons of it,,but guess what. Vinod's ethanol plant will only need 1/2 a million tons this season,,.so the farmers will get what they get every year...dick.
  If the ethanol industry wants to help the rural poor why don't they contract a fair price on the front end. Tell me now how much they will pay per bushel.
 Not when you have the crop du jour gushing out of the silos ,,and oops ,,suddenly low demand.
 
Econ 101 strikes again.

In these hear parts, relying on arguments from economists means you are gonna have to prove what you say, not just hand wave.

Now the orginal poster expressed:

Please compare previous promises of sudden money for the rural poor to how events actually played out.
 It is the old give me your vote now and I promise wealth and happiness later.

And your response was:

In fact (not fantasy) new ethanol distilleries have saved more than one small Minnesota town.

  1. When Don Sailorman uses the word "fact" he's been known to tie that to global sea water levels not rising and that e85 gets better milage in cars.
  2. Exactly how is an Ethanol plant NOT a manufactoring job?

Farming has historically ment long hours and low pay per gunga2006, and thus far Mr. Sailorman hasn't actually rebutted gunga2006's position.    

Lets move onto 'Econ 101':
Making booze from corn does mean a market for the corn.   Howwever, such a world also means that the ultra-cheap energy that drives the tractors and makes rural land prices so high will be going away.   Considering how most modern farming is done, exactly how will more expensive fuel and less valuable land effect operation of the modern farm?  (Hint:  The land is used as collateral to borrow against to buy the fancy, big, tractors and other equipment)  If fuel prices go up and land prices drop ($7000 an acre 'farmland' becomes $500 an acre) how high does ethanol have to rise to balance out the spreadsheet?

 Don,
  Sorry about the multiple posts in reply but the more I think about this the more obvious it seems.
  Say in a given year, CY2007, ethanol increases demand for corn by a factor of X. All of this talk of big money is ensuring supply will increase by a factor of X+.
  If the price per bushel is going to rise, why don't the ethanol plants contract their price per bushel on the front end? Because they are pushing production to ensure supply is greater than any given years demand.
 The ethanol proponents could kill this argument today. Vinod could come in and say " Gunga, you a**hole, I'm contracting a per bushel price of $X on the front end which is more than the poor farmers have ever seen. "
  Most farmers would love to know how much they will be paid per bushel before they put seed to ground. If the price per bushel is going to be so high why don't the points of demand use front contracts instead of waiting to price the product at the silo?
  Econ 201- The source of supply is fractured and the different sources of supply don't coordinate production for the most part. The point of demand relative to supply is consolidated and can choose their source of raw material.
  This is why the small American farmer historically stays hand to mouth.
   If ethanol will help America's energy needs let it stand on it's own. I just have a hard time accepting this, "all you poor folks will be paid" arguement until I see the money going to the fields.
Regards

 

In Minnesota the trend is for farmers to finance and build ethanolol distilleries to buy their own corn--an extension of the farmers' co-op idea, with some variations.

The "Minneapolis Star Tribune" did a series on this topic not long ago, and so has WCCO TV news and various other Minnesota news organizations in case you want particular names, dates, amounts, profitability, and specific impacts on certain rural communities.

Is ethanol a silver bullet? Of course not. Could it be a silver BB? I'd say yes, based on hard evidence that exists now.

 Which seems to reinforce the idea that it will be the people that own the ethanol plants who will make the money.
If the farmers saw money coming to the fields they wouldn't become ethanol plant ownners.
Don,

In yesterday's news, our US-house representative, Tom Osborne, spoke of concern of ethanol expansion moving too fast for our infrastructure.  Of our 12 plants producing ethanol right now, only 4 are farmer-owned.  See article:

http://www.Kearneyhub.com/sitelprinterFriendly.cfm?brd=268&dept_id=577571&newsid=17032387

Please provide a link showing us that most of Minnesota's ethanol plants are farmer owned.

The article also mentions that 12 plants are producing, 9 are under construction, and 23 are in the planning stages.  Currently 1/3 of our corn is going towards ethanol.  That means when all 44 are up and running, 8 of them will not have any corn to buy, because 36 of them will be using 100% of the corn produced in this state to produce ethanol.  A lower post suggests the same situation in Iowa.  Think about the implications of this:  farming every inch of land that can possibly be farmed because of increased corn prices--farming what is now CRP land(often the only resting land, or wildlife habitat in an area of intensively farmed land), plowing up more virgin prairie, irrigating even more, less diversity in farm production (more corn-less of anything else), larger farms, more industrial farming, increased cost of food and any corn based products, less US ag exports, etc.  In my drumbeat post, citing an excellent article from the Omaha World-Herald this past Sunday, it stated that a $100 million ethanol plant can be paid for in 1 year's worth production.

http://www.theoildrum.com/comments/2006/8/6/9105/08126/9#9

Now, reading between the lines, there is one hell of an incentive for investors to build these ethanol plants, get them paid for in one year, and then bail out?? (my guess)  So, I differ in thinking with Tom Osborne, in that I am relieved that only 4 of our 12 plants are farmer owned, because I seriously don't think these plants will be operating in five years from now, but thats just MOHO.  Now, I know that I have just provided some insight for a VC to speculate on when to get out of his investment in ethanol--I'd say about one or two years from now, if not sooner.

Renewable resources such as solar and wind with a move towards electricfication of transportation, increased rail both electric and other, and conservation are the way to go.  The sooner we can move towards decentralizing our infrastructures the less hard we'll fall, but it doesn't look like that will happen soon enough.

I never said that MOST of the distelleries in Minnesota are farmer owned; rather I said that some of them are, and that it is feasible for farmers to own these ethanol distilleries in some form of "co-operative" organization. Farm Co-ops go way back and have been particularly strong in Minnesota for the past hundred years.

Any industry has the potentiality of growing too fast. (or too slow)

As you may or may not be aware, the hot new idea in Minnesota is to make legal the gadgets that will convert your car to run on flex-fuel--anything from E-85 to pure gasoline, and any blend in between. If this idea flies (and I think the odds are good), then it seems reasonable to expect a rather rapid expansion in the demand for E-85 in Minnesota, where it sells for forty cents a gallon less than 87 octane gasoline. Thus, if this gadget becomes popular, the demand for E-85 in this state could increase at double-digit percent rates for some years to come.

As so often happens, Minnesota leads the rest of the country in progressive ideas;-)

Holy shit!!!
I agree a lot with what CEO has said. I see this as just another person venting their opinion on several subjects. Bottom line, no one knows what is going to happen tomorrow. Alaska is only one example. Few apply to their lives what people experience and do when they have an emergency. Most think "poor them" but keep going about their lives as always because it didn't happen to them. I look at facts like (we are running out of natural resources). Who is going to buy stuff when they no longer have a job or can no longer get another mortgage on real property because it has bottomed out (again). The American dream that most had is now dead. If one does not plan for their continued survival without looking for help from others will probably be dead in the next ten years. This is where I have gone, stocking up on food supplies that have very long shelf life that is right now affordable. Enough water storage (for drinking) (3,500 gallons) to last one year for the (9) people that I am planning on being with me. Enough water storage (for agriculture) (6300 gallons) for one year. I have realized that there is no way I can grow enough food to continue my survival by growing it. I do not own enough acreage to do this. I live in a desert (S. California) that was not meant to support the population that it now has. I am armed through the teeth to keep what I have because I believe that one day (soon) those that had no foresight and live in a land of wishful thinking will do what ever they have to because they will realize that the lack of action and depending on others for their continued survival was a deadly mistake. I do not buy for one second that future technology in anything is going to save my ass.    
I agree. Good for you and good luck.
You say you're looking at facts, and then you start asking questions like "Who is going to buy stuff when they no longer have a job", moving straight into extreme conjecture and skipping over the intermediate steps between a decent situation, like now, and total economic collapse.  If you setup a what-if scenario where all of the assumptions are worst case, then you end up with the worst case.  Where is the surprise in that?  

Making fatalistic assumptions is no better than diehard optimists who think technology will solve our problems with no need to worry about it.  The similar end result on either end of the optimism/pessimism scale is that no attention is paid to trying to solve the problem.  

A few years back at ASPO an oil geologist stated that he rather look like a fool and prepare for his future than wait for someone to come up with a fix for P.O. and all of it's ramifications. I have found a lot of truth in that statement from reading the remarks and debates over possible solutions since this geologist remark. I have been researching P.O. for over four years now and you know what? I have not seen one thing get better from the time I first became aware of our world resources depletion problems. I do believe that it will be a long time before this world runs out of oil but here is something for you to think about?
Matthew Simmons has talked about this, about how much longer do you think the oil producing countries will continue selling their oil before they shut off the valves to keep what is left for them selves. I do not see this happening over a long period of time. I will not blame them one bit when they do. If this is not a worst case when it happens, I have no idea what would be greater than this affecting humanity. When I look at our world leaders and their involvement in how to deal with resource depletion problems, one only ends up with "worst case" feelings. I am a realist and have never had anything given to me to make my life better. I really do not care if someone wants to debate me over how I feel I should prepare for a possible disaster. I live in (shake and bake) country (California) and have seen over and over again how people were not prepared when we have an earth quake. I believe that we are heading towards an oil and economic crash, and again, I do not think this is going to happen over a long period of time. I'll survive quite well, no matter what happens. I sincerely hope that you do too.          
Set up a farm, use only human labor and energy derived from ethanol production(no fossil fuel inputs period other than manufacture of the equipment used), show me the final yield in saleable ethanol per acre and man hours of labor. This has been done before long ago, the yields are known values yet they seem to have been lost over the years due to the massive benefits of petroleum. I think some perspective on ethanol is in order here.

Most of the above post seems to assume continued petroleum and fossil fuel inputs to grow crops to generate feedstock to distill alcohol, whats the picture look like w/o it? Why is this important? Sustainability and a reasonable look at what the future may hold. Plan for the worst, hope for the best, lives and the future are at stake. I think overall alcohol will have a place and role, albeit a small one, but the competition for food vs fuel is a dangerous game to play given the nature of the US these days methinks.


Exactly I think that by ignoring peak oil he is ignoring the skyrocketing costs of oil based inputs costs of modern agribusiness methods.

Here is his vision of the future.

1.) GM crops
      Profit !!!
2.) Large cellulose ethanol plants gm microbes
     Profit !!!!
3.) Expensive distribution of water sensitive ethanol
     Profit !!!
4.) American Consumer paying 8 bucks a gallon for gasoline
     5 dollar a gallon ethanol.
    Profit !!!

He paper does not show the above is not true. What's happened is that the world is like Romainia where people are willing to spend up to 30% of there income on transportation. How do I know friends from Romania. Fleecing the sheep for transport is the growth industry of the future.

Whats not happening.

Even for ethanol what is the cost of chemical conversion to butanol a much much better alchohol for transportation ?

What is the cost of decentralized processing i.e on the farm
or small scale this could benefit from solar distilation waste heat sources bio-methane  and profits go to the farmer  ?

Theres more but what I don't see is I don't see a process thats been close looped early i.e. the inputs and outputs to the farming process can be easily accounted for.

Lets take simple farming can we eliminate the huge tractors in favor of carbon-fiber combines pulled by mules ?

Whats wrong with my simple biodigesters proposal and how do they compare to the big cellulose conversion plants.
Plus by focusing on syngas/methane production and handling on the farm you can with a small simple conversion plant produce any chemical output needed.

But I don't care because for a very simple reason cellulose ethanol won't work.

There is no reserve !

Where are you going to store 6 months of cellulose or a 6 month supply of ethanol much less a year or more.
Without storage your subject to the whims of nature with significant crop shortages possible any given year these would translate into real fuel shortages.

Right now the ethanol industry is using up the stored grain supply consider what happens when its our only source ?

They can't solve this problem with centralization thus there doomed so I see no real reason to argue with there schemes because I assure the moment they have people hooked on there expensive ethanol then can't supply it because of drought etc there doomed. Assuming they can even figure out how to supply cellulose based ethanol for a whole year using a centralized model I can't see it.

So where are you going to pile 6 months worth of cellulose or store 6 months worth of ethanol or a years supply ?????

Good luck.

Ya, thats another aspect I hadnt really looked at but it does need mentioned, the seasonal nature of the fuel supply if you use crops as feedstock. Not only to you have to "bank" alot of the production you also have to count on the weather cooperating and assume that soil degradation and water issues dont interfere. Even just minor successive years of drought end the prospects. I think its a fairly safe bet at this point that the "green revolution" even without peak oil is likely going to run into big problems, it just isnt sustainable. Petroleum inputs can only cover so many sins. You have to husband ALL your resources wisely, and thats something that goes unmentioned by Mr Khosla. Never assume the water supply and soil quality will stay static, it wont. Places can turn into desert pretty quickly. However, its already been proven that good old fashioned hard work and sustainable farming techniques can indeed support quite a few people and last for centuries, the problem is the yields are smaller and you lose all the leverage afforded by fossil fuels thus causing more people to have to work for a living and have less people living period.

Using any fossil fuels to make ethanol is an automatic loser, your better off using those fossil fuels as directly as possible to avoid the losses incurred every step of the way. Like I said above, ethanol has its place, albeit a small one. On a small scale it works, but I have serious doubts we will be able to or want to industrialize it to the degree that petroleum has undergone, it would be a mistake. It may even end up being a mistake not easily undone faced with the consequences if it fails, civilizations before have made the same mistakes and died because of it !! This is not an issue that should be taken lightly or jumped into without  PROVING its viability, and viability long term.

We al need to face the facts that the REAL solutions here are going to involve sacrifices, conservation, alot more hard physical labor, and at some point we can either deal with population overshoot, or nature will do it for us.

The Oil Drum has hashed out most of these arguments pretty thouroughly at this stage, much thanks to Mr Rapier, and Mr Khosla though. I agree there are NO silver bullets, and I for one dont want any either. Im perfectly happy to work like a dog to earn my keep, I have a feeling much of the rest of the US isnt though. I kicked my car habit years ago, one of the gutsiest and toughest moves Ive ever done, well worth it, wish I had done it long ago. Im willing to take more steps too, already working on it, but I have no illusions that I will ever reach my ultimate goal of zero impact, not without help anyway.

The gateless gate

I couldn't quite slip thru the many stop signs that Mr Kholsa erected as the price of admission to his piece. Nevertheless I peaked thru the fenceposts to get a sense of his vision and TOD'ers reaction to it.

It is too easy to divide the comments and commentators into optimists and pessimists, realists and idealists, theorists and doers, ad nasuem. This categorization does not deepen or broaden real understanding. It can create an "I'm right/you're wrong" mindset that limits creatiivty and cooperative action.

My own perspective is based on a deep sense that "the system" is deeply out of alignment with reality itself.

I support perspectives and initiatives that tug us towards acknowledging that the current trajectory is unsustainable while still nourishing the hope in the inherent adaptability of us to respond to the challenges before us.

So although I couldn't get thru all of Mr Kholsa's gates I would certainly not want to fence him in. I admire his willingness to expose the assumptions, beliefs and opinions that support his vision to a critical audience. Perhaps his efforts and enthusiasm will inspire others to get involved, ask critical questions and invest in creating new possibilities. Bravo!

Whats wrong with my simple biodigesters proposal

It has BEEN responded to, and you have chosen to ignore the response is all.

Where are you going to store 6 months of cellulose or a 6 month supply of ethanol much less a year or more.

Here's what's NEAT about ethyl alcohol.   Once its made and in a high concentration...it STAYS that way, barring outside changes via water or vaporization.   There are people who spend their days collecting old booze, because a bottle made in 1880 is about the same (the tannins from the wood storage cask may change)

So long as you keep it in a closed container, it sticks around.

But I don't care because for a very simple reason cellulose ethanol won't work.
There is no reserve !

errrr

  1. The idea of ethanol is that it is RENEWABLE - thus 'reserves' arn't a generational issue.   (unless the biosphere collapses)
  2. no one has a reserve of ethanol as fuel today because demand is high, thus what they make is sold.

Right now, huamns have a good life based on the ability to suck on RESERVES of oil.   I've YET to see any proposal for an oil-less future where things continue as they have been that does the math on what's needed to keep reserve energy on hand.
It strikes me that we don't have a "bird in the hand" replacement for our auto and fossil-fuel based transportation system.  And so fearing higher costs and shortages in that system we listen to (often smart and honest) proponents of various "birds in the bush."

I'm not sure I've found a bottom line here, or missed one, but my feeling is that we should spread bets on the alternatives, until they prove themselves.  I mean, Proponent A might like us to build (premature?) infrastructure for electric cars, while Proponent B might like us to build (premature?) infrastructure for hydrogen cars, and Proponent C ... might have something to say about ethanol.

This gets back a little bit to the nature of funding and innovation.  Typically small players choose one course, and gamble big.  They have to.  But I think over-arching organizations have the luxury, and the obligation, to be a little less committed to a single course.

IMO the flaw in our national strategy has been to "choose one" and then change our minds and "choose another."

... I say spread the bets, and don't build out infrastructure technologies prove themselves.  In the case of ethanol, I'd say it has proven itself viable as a niche (corn) player, but not yet as a wide (cellulosic) solution.

sorry "don't build out infrastucture [until] technologies prove themselves"

(I think my typo and missing word rate is actually better than my average in that piece ;-)

P.S. - the nice thing about ethanol as a niche solution is that most cars (and gas stations) are E10 ready, and we don't need much infrastructure investment at that level.  The big leap is toward E85 infrastructure ... and I don't see that as sensible until somebody can tell me the end of the cellulosic story.  By all means gamble with venture money sir, but reserve the big government push for winners from the venture competition.
Okay, so I didn't read the whole thing. Read it into an MP3 file, and I'll download it, and listen to it on my long run this weekend.

But what I do know is that farmers in my state are getting crushed by fuel and fertilizer prices, they are salivating at the prospect of ehtanol, my governor (Phil Bredesen) can tell you the converision and EROEI ratios for corn based ethanol and cellulosic ethanol off the cuff, and my candidate for Senate, Harold Ford, Jr., has an ad standing in the middle of a West Tennessee soy bean field talking about energy independence.

I love the "silver bb's" concept. But I think everyone has to understand peak oil sooner or later, to grasp the importance of the silver bbs on a national scale, as opposed to "what hits my pocket book."

I am heartened to know that my governor and my senate candidate get all of these concepts-- peak oil, silver bbs, and pocket book issues. But they are marketing them in a way that farmers and individuals can comprehend within their existing frameworks, to accomplish at least some change now.

I am heartened to know that my governor and my senate candidate get all of these concepts-- peak oil, silver bbs, and pocket book issues.

Could you have your Governer give my Governer a call?  Six month's ago, when asked about Peak Oil, the governer of Vermont didn't understand the question.

Also stop reading if you believe in massive conspiracies, want to revolutionize the world with rebellion, change the consumption pattern (4% of world population consuming 25% of its resources- I hate it too but don't count on it changing) overnight, dramatically change behavior like getting Americans to drive less(lots of idealized solutions I can think of but it won't happen except through legislation like higher CAFÉ or higher gasoline prices, and most such legislation is politically infeasible).

Mr. Khosla,

If this is your attitude, why even bother? You would actually make a great (what we call) "doomer" on this website.

You talk about the "car not going away." Yes that's correct, it's not going away, but they don't need to be 3-ton assault  vehicles for carrying one person to the mall and back 17 times a day.

The biggest problem with ethanol is that it perpetuates the consume-and-burn lifestyle rather than attempting to bring it to an end.

Let's start with massive sticker taxes on these stupid vehicles. Let's start with raising gas-taxes gradually to $3 a gallon. Let's start with convincing the government and the people that we need to conserve more and consume less. Any reasonable success in these departments would negate the need to even think about ethanol.

I'm not trying to change things overnight. I'm just trying to hope things will change. But that hope is destroyed when I see that you and others are pushing the notion of continued, unlimited energy consumption at cheap prices.

Idealized solutions? Yes, but they are solutions, and as far as I can see they are the only real ones on the table. Ethanol is a "solution" like a $10 bag of heroin is a "fix."

"Addicted" to oil. I believe the President of the United States has used that one.

Thank you for your time. Peace.

Agreed whole heartily.  A massive societal shift is what is really needed to mitigate these potential problems.  What authors like Khosla seem to assume is that this shift is impossible. Thus any solution that is not all encompassing (there are none)is immediately regarded as unrealizable.  IMHO this line of thought is more harmful than helpful.  As has been said before, people need to realize that the era of private McMansions and cheap and easy motoring is over AND that there is a better more fulfilling way of life beyond this.  From what I've seen of this country, despite its short comings, this is a possibility.  But, if all the public hears from the peak oil/energy crowd is, "we're all gonna die and there is nothing we can do about it" then it will simply push them closer to that proverbial cliff.
Agreed.  Mr. Khosla's essay, while filled with very good thoughts, is also filled with internal contradictions that leave me a bit perplexed.

People thought that no one would use the internet to buy things because they couldn't touch or feel their goods before purchase.  This has been wrong.  People now even buy groceries, including produce, on the internet.  That "trajectory" changed.

People thought that companies or individuals wouldn't stop using paper for certain transactions, not trusting the reliability or evidentiary proof of electronic transactions.  Wrong. That "trajectory" changed.

So for all this talk of "trajectory", Mr. Kosla bases a substantial part of his viewpoint on an assumption which he appears unwilling to question -- that the "personal automobile is here to stay."

The use of the "personal automobile" trajectory may change too -- regardless of whether we at the TOD, Mr. Kosla, or anyone else wants it to or not.

I am a personal example.  I grew up in what you would call an "automobile family", my dad worked in the auto industry his entire career.  Now my wife and I have one car, and eventually, we will own no car. And we couldn't be happier.  It's actually cheaper and more convenient not to own one.  Many friends are coming around to this too -- regardless of peak oil, in fact.

The inefficiencies relating to personal automobile use -- energy is huge one, but really just one of a whole number of inefficiencies -- may eventually change this trajectory, too.

Mr. Kosla, you make a number of strong points, IF one assumes that your assessment of the proper "trajectory" is correct.  

But I fail to find any persuasive evidence -- indeed, any evidence at all -- that your assessment of "what can be" is correct.  

I think that "what can be" is much broader, more different, and eventually, much more satisfying than what you are willing to give human beings, particularly Americans, credit for.  Don't get me wrong that it will be a (very) bumpy path to getting there, though, and especially for Americans.  We're going to be griping about the pain of the shot in the arm for a long time before we pipe down and realize the benefits of immunization, so to speak. . .

Also, I find the argument that EROEI is "irrelevant" to be unpersuasive.  Robert Rapier's analysis appears correct to me.  Citing to Argonne work product without getting into the first principals of the methodology cannot persuade me otherwise.


Well said.

I don't mean this in kind of a dippy "transformational" way, but I do beleive we might be near one more important societal and civilizational inflection points. An obvious one is the threat of political authoritarianism which even extremely moderate voices like Sandra Day O"Connor have been acknowledging recently:
http://www.yuricareport.com/Law%20&%20Legal/OConnorWarnsOfDictatorship.html
but the possibility of very rapid transformation in infrastructure and societal logistics is certainly present as well and can--to some extent--be planned for.

That is where being too doctrinaire about notions of "what's possible" seems to me to fall flat. I'm quite certain that someone looking back in ten years would perceive a very different set of possibilities than someone trying to be politically savvy and "realist" in his perspective at the current moment. The lesson: to not cast off good ideas because they aren't "realistic."

Now, Mr Khosla probably isn't going to have much effect on the gas tax debate, compared to the effect he's having on the ethanol debate. And I think his calculus of where is effort is best spent is completely honorable. That's why some of the outrage and haughtiness directed his way rubs me wrong.

The question of food supply and yields is a serious one, especially when rising temperatures lower yields and we've had a grain production deficeit for 7 of the last 8 yrs.

http://www.earth-policy.org/Indicators/Grain/2006.htm

Certainly our food production system has a lot of slack. But short-term there could be some real uglyness with grain prices and shortages and that might pose a real challenge to the politics of grain-based fuels.

(My apologies for misspelling Mr. Khosla's name a few times. I never enjoy it when people don't take the short amount of time to spell my somewhat long name correctly. . . sorry)
People thought that no one would use the internet to buy things because they couldn't touch or feel their goods before purchase.  This has been wrong.  People now even buy groceries, including produce, on the internet.  That "trajectory" changed.

Errr, touching the items from in a catalogue was not possible, yet Sears and Mongomery Wards made a good living selling from catalogues.

Mr. Kosla, you make a number of strong points, IF one assumes that your assessment of the proper "trajectory" is correct.  

Isn't that what this whole web site is - trying to figure out "the trajectory" of how the end of cheap oil is going to work out?

That is exactly my point.  He assumes a certain trajectory, namely, that the nature and extent of personal automobile use will remain the same.  But the assumptions underlying his trajectory can (and should) themselves be questioned.
Somebody reminded me of a Yogi Berra quote today ... "the future ain't what it used to be."
Yeah, but the reality is that era of McMansions and massive cars is not yet over.  When it becomes obvious that those are unsustainable (which it will as gas prices go up), then people will start to notice.  Right now, why would people think that, when the reality is they can still afford to fill up just fine, even if it is starting to become slightly painful?  

I think it's a mistake to think that people won't change, just because they don't plan ahead.  When faced with the problem so they can't ignore it (getting too expensive to fill up that H3), they will then be forced to accept it and make changes.  Right now they won't listen, as they don't believe in peak oil yet, and don't see any reason to be concerned.  

I do agree with you that there is nothing more counterproductive than doom and gloom forecasts.  Such pessimism accomplishes nothing.  It doesn't win people over, it doesn't help push us along the route to finding an alternative or solution to the problem.  It's just useless hand wringing.  A lot of pessimists probably see themselves as being a cut above the "mindless" people out there who don't think there are any problems, but the reality is they are exactly the same.  

For practical purposes there is no difference between someone who thinks there is no problem, and someone who thinks the problems are insurmountable.  Neither is going to do anything to try to overcome them.  

  • A lot of people are saying that ethanol can't fully replace gasoline. If that is true, and if there is no miracle drop-in alternative, then fuel will get a whole lot more expensive over time even IF biofuels work out peachy. So there's no need for an SUV tax as in theory it'll happen anyway.

  • VK cannot make laws. Saying "let's start with raising gas taxes" is easy. Dealing with the horde of angry fuel protesters who have lost their jobs and their homes because of that policy is a LOT harder (it happened in England!).

  • It's easy to criticise when you're in an armchair. VK is actually getting shit done unlike most of us here. Whatever you think of his exact policies, you have to respect that.

Its nice to see people working on stuff. But you must realize its people like Vishod that are playing a very very dangerous game. The decisions we make over the next few years will have deep ramifications for our near term future. If you believe like me that were heading for a cliff then you do care how these people move. The moment people realize were in deep shit there not going to be thinking hard about sustainability thus its up to the Vishod's of the world to really get beyond the car culture and the contraints of todays soceity and consider the needs of the future. I've seen the posters at peak oil with a widly diveregnet background narrow down what needs to happen and present arguments I can agree with.

We know what needs to happen
1.) compact our sociey ( smaller closer housing business)
2.) Electrify
3.) Solar/Wind/( Real renewable biofuels )

Thats the right thing and I'm conviced the only thing that will work as the oil depletes.

The Vishod's of the world are doing a huge disservice not jumping beyond the concept that the care is here to stay.
I bet in ten years non hybrid/all electric will be very rare
and roads themselves will degrade dramatically.

We will see.

VK is actually getting shit done
True!
Whatever you think of his exact policies, you have to respect that.
We don't have to respect that. I respect the fact that he's willing to put his position to a highly critical crowd. But I don't expect that he'd listen to any criticism and won't respect that. VK has been luckier than most. He's in a position to have some influence but his influence is in the wrong direction; he's trying to keep this highly consumptive, and growing, society going. That's impossible and I don't automatically respect someone who has seen the arguments and doesn't accept that.

(Ouch, I hate writing this sort of stuff. VK is just another guy. He has his beliefs and emotions, as we all do. Perhaps we should just let him get on with pursuing his dream - if he doesn't, someone else will).

He's trying to keep this highly consumptive, and growing, society going. That's impossible

Probably yes, but right now the alternative is running out of fuel and suffering a potentially cataclysmic collapse.

I for one would rather we switch to ethanol and buy some time to let us adjust our economic system and make improvements, rather than all die off through starvation. Yummy.

[...] the alternative is running out of fuel and suffering a potentially cataclysmic collapse.

That implies some big assumptions, foremost would be that we would choose to "run out" rather than restructure.

Some of the ethanol argument chases its tail in that sense.  We are to use ethanol because we won't restructure, and we won't restructure because we have ethanol.  Etc.

Probably yes, but right now the alternative is running out of fuel
That is also the alternative of the ethanol solution, since Mr Khosla doesn't care about EROEI. But we won't run out of oil any time soon, it will peak. Buying time won't help unless people really get the idea that we need to change. If they do, then I'll support any short term idea that genuinely did buy us time. This is clearly not Mr Khosla's aim.

Tony

I for one would rather we switch to ethanol and buy some time to let us adjust our economic system and make improvements, rather than all die off through starvation.

errr, right now ethyl alcohol is made from stuff that could become food.

Celluatic alcohol in a cheap mass produced way is still 'expermental'.   Now, you CAN do it if you take concentrated sulfuric acid or low concentration/high temp sulfuric acid process.  

There WILL be starvation.  All dying off - only if the fight for cheap energy causes the die-off or the biosphere collapses.

Others are working as well, within our capabilities.

Below iss my DrumBeat post today.  I daresay that my efforts may result in more net positive effects on PO & GW than those of Mr. Khosla.

The recent HydroPower conference in Portland has been quite productive in leads or starts on ideas that are relevant to PO and/or GW. Just to report, and show that one person with "good ideas" can have some impact.

People ARE looking for solutions to an ill-defined "problem".

1) I talked a utility executive (in charge of development) to join with 3 other utilities and jointly offer electrification to a large railroad for a ~1,500 mile section of line.  The utilites would be willing to do this on a turn-key basis; or just sell power at the wire to the RR loco from utility owned system.

I HOPE that the first railroad electrification will start many more up in a cascade.

2) Talked two senior engineers at Landsvirkjun to look seriously into a HV DC line to Scotland (old plans exist).  The UK will have serious problems starting in 2012/14 and Iceland could sell renewable electricity "at a good price" in competition with LNG imports.  Perhaps average 1 GW.

The French see the same problem and are building an unneeded (by France) 1.6 GW nuke 50 km from England.

   3. Possibly matched a surplus high head powerplant equipment with a plant in Zambia that wants to expand.  Also, suggested privatizing RR from Zambia to Tanzania with the condition that it be electrified.  Transfer large truck movements to rail.  RR ends at large copper mines.  The Zambian claimed to have ear of the President (democratically elected) and thought it was a GREAT idea.   20% of Zambia has electricity.

   4. Several leads for Chile, which is in a MAD rush for renewables.  They are burning oil today for electricity due to shortfalls in Argentine NG deliveries and are planning for zero NG deliveries in 2 or 3 years.  30% to 40% of their electricity (depends on how wet a year) comes from NG.

Landsvirkjun plans to send a team to look at 60 prospects already defind by gov't.  I told Chile that some wind turbines might be available from India (they are having trouble finding any for delivery before late 2008).

5) I meet with local Streetcar President in Portland and was invited to join a new national group he was forming.  Portland is planning for major streetcar expansion on both sides of the river as well as a new Green Line Light Rail opening in late 2009 and a commuter rail line.

Also meet with Portland TODer and a local consultant.

All in all, an extraordinary 11 days !

That's great, Alan. Much more useful than Mr Khosla's idea. Apart from France's extra nuke, of course! Why do you say that they don't need it themselves (once it's built)?
We don't need it ourselves because we are already on 85% nuclear electricity (most of the rest is hydro).

France has about the lowest per-capita CO2 emissions per capita in the developed world...  nuclear is why (good trains is another contributing factor) Air is way cleaner around here than 20 years ago, no more coal...

On the other hand, presumably a few new nukes will be handy if, say, 50% of cars are to be electric or plug-in hybrids in 10 years.

Does France's electricity consumption never increase, then?
I talked with EDF (Electricity of France) guy at the conference.  He smiled at my suggestion and noted that a new  submarine electrical cable would not be too difficult from that site.  And that France would need the power from the new nuke @ 2025 or so (scheduled completion 2012) and it was good to build one "for the experience".

He also noted that Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands were not far away either from this site.  So it is (IMO) an export power reactor, with potential customers other than the UK.

http://www.insc.anl.gov/pwrmaps/map/france.html

Per news reports, EDF wanted it built at Penly, but local opposition resulted in it being sited at Flamanville.

It is a near twin of the new Finnish nuclear reactor.

Hi Oil CEO,

Well, you stole my thunder.  I read that same paragraph and then stopped reading.  I hate these artificial limits on such discussions.

Even if the peak oil problem can be solved, there are plenty of other serious problems confronting our species, and most if not all of them can be tied to capitalism and its constant need for growth.  Climate change, desertification, declining water tables, soil erosion, etc.  The list goes on.  We do not have a sustainable system.  

Any chance soil erosion may have a future impact on our ability to produce ethanol?  Any chance climate change may affect our ability to produce ethanol?  Any chance a lack of water might affect our ability to produce ethanol?

And of course we don't have limitless energy resources, which merely adds one more item to our list of looming challenges.

  Society is an integrated whole, and it can always be helpful to look at the big picture.  I find it very hard to deal respectfully with anyone who tries to artificially limit the terms of the debate.

It is like when people say that Kyoto is better than nothing. Actually, no, a burned up world is not better than nothing, whether we do nothing or whether we do something that doesn't get as much past nothing and still leads to massive warming.

Ethanol is not better than nothing. Cutting our car use by 70% is way better than nothing and may be sufficient as far as the private vehicle sector goes. Ethanol is worse than nothing because it is used by people like Prez Bush to say we need to nothing other than alternatives -- that the only real problem is our addiction to oil. No, our real problem is that we are addicted to autos and pushing ethanol won't change that nor will it do much of  anything to cut greenhouse gases.

Here is the basic problem.  To do that which is politically feasible doesn't solve the problem.  To do that which will solve the problem is not  politically feasible.

Yes, the above is true.  But we still need to push real solutions, not just approaches that get us past the next election.  A dead world will still be dead, whether that world is run by democrats or republicans.

We have no goals, just "solutions" like ethanol which don't solve any problems.

Ethanol is being used by GM and Ford to avoid solving the reqal  problem,their monster vehicles. Their problem is sales of the vehicles; therefore, flexible fuel vehicles are part of their solution to the problem of selling more vehicles. Once again, ethanol is creating more problems than it is solving. If I can argue that ethanol is marginally more efficient than gasoline, I accomplish nothing if I am using it to perpetuate Suburbans.

First focus on more efficient vehicles needing to be driven much fewer miles. Then focus on the best fuel to do that. It may turn out that the best fuel is not a fuel at all -- but electricity.

 

I have to agree with that.  Any politician that says "we can fix the problem, but you have to curb consumption" will be looking for a new line of work.

Ultimately it will have to boil down to decentralized energy production / consumption.  It worked for generations upon generations before oil.

I find myself "upset" after reading "most" of this.  My reaction is the author has a view of "a non-negotiable" lifestyle in America, a lack of values for our really precious resources--topsoil, clean water, and the way in which our remaining precious fossil fuels will be used. He seems to lack a view of the big picture, concern about reorganizing our infrascructure so that we have the ability to actually feed ourselves.  I am living in our nation's bread basket, and I can tell you that right now, we are not producing food to feed ourselves if an energy shock hits us.  I also feel like "pimps" are exploiting the resources around me, here in the midwest to promote their way of life on the coasts, not like they are actually benefitting us in any way--if they are it is extremely short-sighted economic gain for a few.  And, how is ethanol going to reduce world poverty????  Frankly, I feel that trying to explain why I think he's wrong on many points would be a waste of my time.  Investing in ethanol is investing in politics.  Period.
YES... and why is it the U.S.A is the only civilized nation on the planet?
I feel that the big picture is not being addressed.
Sure the topic of agriculture is a local issue but, when all else is global (mexican and Canadian ties i.e) trade dependant . What the hex... Americans solve the problem , Americans caused !!! But MSM points the finger and average voter thinks .... it's those industrious Chinese and Indians and ??? South Americans and ???
So really its a global crisis. Energy - food - water ...
If America is leading the way for the world...
Then you fellas with pie in the sky had better except some cold reality.
THINGS CHANGE.... The real problem is The American ...be it Early American or latter day solution is to remove ...that which causes friction... aka ... might makes right. And I doubt to few understand that U.S citizens are no better off than the Native American Indian. AND history clearly proves my statement as to their removal.
The Oil Drum community is transparent... ideas are surfaced and concepts formed...exchanged ...a discussion entails...the emotions of the contributors.
I am not so certain that what goes on here is not so different as to the discussions held behind closed doors by the present movers and shakers.
The exception is this transparency... honesty?
When one removes the moral and ethical transparency of the masses and sucumbs to the alternative of a minority it would seem logical that... as history has shown a removal of the friction would be an exceptable answer.
Huuuummn .... Bird flu removees how many ... a draft and expansion of a miltary venture.... an economic collapse that contributes to many lives lost>  And by my definition a conspiracy is not transparent.

Why couldn't for the people by the people be done
via internet ?
Duh... national security...
screw it... in the box, stay in the box ...
loving nation under god has more enemies and more reasons to be nervous about than  !!!   Cole Sweat
but,  thats just the way i see it.
My hillbilly nose smells a fox in the hen house...
The political arena is not .. will not ... can not solve the problem of economic dependancy. The problem of what if no one went to work tomorrow what would happen? How many lives would be lost if everybody stayed home and spent time with their families??? Why don't people get it?
Greed and stupidity .... Greed = Demand and stupidity = supply...
WIGZ SIT DOWN. AND SHUT UP !!!
I just flamed myself ... feels good.

My reaction is the author has a view of "a non-negotiable" lifestyle in America,

That is because that is the view of the governenment.  (Carter Doctrine)  The government has that position because that is the view of the largest consitutants - businesses.

Mr. Khosla says:  "The personal automobile is here to stay."

While the personal automobile may be here to stay, I believe that it is important -- vital -- to realise that we cannot sustain the size of the fleet of personal automobiles that we have, used as intensively as we use them.  Other considerations than fuel -- or energy -- to move the automobiles enter into this.  The use of land and resources to create and operate these vehicles and the road system is itself unsustainable.

It is better to see the personal automobile as a technology which we must use less and less while creating healthier, more efficient ways of organising human settlement and transportation within the context of today's understanding of our relationship to the planet as our habitat.  Resource depletion and the effects of pollution on human health and planetary health will demand visionary thinking and action which goes beyond the paradigm of "the personal automobile" as the central motif in organising human settelement and transportation.

Please consider funding efforts to develop rail and also walk-able, bike-able living patterns and the use of HPVs (Human Powered Vehicles) within this context.

Attention to diversification of the transportaion paradigm wil actually strengthen the efforts to use liquid fuels in an economically sustainable fashion.

The most sustainable technologies we currently have fully available need far more investment and support than does the "personal automobile" which has already devoured so much of our time, energy, and attention.

Mr Khosla, please spend some partof your time, energy, and/or wealth encouraging the development of rail and HPVs along the way.

-- regards -- Gary Hoover ("Beggar" on TOD)

I agree with many of Beggar's points. We may have ethanol to run some personal vehicles, but none of our communities will have the money to pave and repair roads as paving costs increase.

The thing about ethanol (and Khosla's argument for it) is that the only way the argument is viable is if you make all sorts of assumptions, like the assumption that we'll have fossil fuel inputs to grow crops, that we'll have water to irrigate the crops, that we'll have topsoil on which to grow the crops, and that there will be enough people left to buy personal vehicles that run on ethanol after mass starvation ensues due to the lack of cropland dedicated to growing crops for people to eat!

Let's spend our collective energy on palatable solutions that use less energy.

Amen. Food comes first.
>While the personal automobile may be here to stay,

Perhaps only for the very wealth, if they are lucky. It would take every available acre of farmland in the US just to produce 7% of the US domestic transportation fuels. Approximately 18% of all consumed fuel is used to transport goods using rail and trucks. Where does personal transportation fit in? Answer: it doesn't. In addition, I haven't even accounted for food production and fertializer inputs required to keep the fields fertial.

The reason why so many people believe that personal transportation vehicles will remain is because they wish it to. They have blinded themselves into believing there is a a technical solution just like thirsty refuge sees a mirage just a bit further into the desert. Like the refuge they continue to follow a path that leads them deeper into the desert to the point that death in inevetiable.

'Travel Arrangements'

I think the only incentive that will get us to really restructure the amount of redundant movement, overshipping, overcommuting, overshopping etc, will be cost of fuel and subsequent inconveniences.  I know we've seen reports all summer that seem to conclude that the $3 gas hasn't changed anyone's habits, but we're talking about a small rudder on a big ship at full speed.  Debt is up, Credit is maxed.. it's just that the last thing people can afford to do is to stop moving around.  People will buy cheaper foods, not take essential medicines.. at some point will cut back to basic Cable or slower Internet, babysitting.. but it's really hard for people to admit that they can't afford to 'show up' this time..

This Crazy Redundancy reminds me of the scene in Terry Gilliam's -at the Armory, where a worker walks across the room every time he needs another rivet.  So our visiting guy tries to help by bringing the rivet box closer, and within moments, the whole room has crumbled into chaos.  This question of a non-negotiable lifestyle is not just a flippant objection by us 'spoiled, addicted babies'.  These habits and assumptions are fully entwined in how we get through life right now, and the transition(s) must be handled right, if we are to avoid tripping up badly.

Unfortunately, I'm unconvinced about Ethanol's role at this point.  I'm glad VK states that it won't be more than a small fraction, but his assurances about 'Excess Production' and the Energy Balances must bear some heavy scrutiny.  How do he and RR come out with such different returns?

The other Pitfalls not really addressed above that I think will be the dealbreakers ultimately, are the massive, but out-of-sight issues of Water and Topsoil, and of course Climate.  At least the Corn crop can serve a double-duty of being consumable by people as well as cars, but the imbalanced emphasis on corn in our croplands is already an achille's heel, for dietary and soil quality concerns.  He does point out how much of that Corn Crop is dedicated to feeding the Meat Crop, another cultural habit that won't break apart on it's own accord, unless the price just gets completely too high.

I don't doubt that Khosla is aware that the 'Car Culture' is less than healthy, and even generally unsustainable.  He just seems to be taking the tack that we have to make changes 'within the model' and not 'with the model'.  That is politically and financially pragmatic, whether or not Ethanol turns out to also be as economically feasible as he is betting that it will be.   This approach also depends on a number of systems/infrastructures that we generally take for granted not falling apart as the oil supply plateaus or dips, systems which are required to allow his numbers to come out as well as they seem to do.

Bob Fiske

Bizarre, a word Disappeared..

It was Terry Gilliam's movie, JABBERWOCKY.

Bob

Yeah, exactly. What happens to the ability to have this ethanol when the dollar crashes because of peak descent, along with all of the other problems it has?
"Yeah, exactly. What happens to the ability to have this ethanol when the dollar crashes because of peak descent, along with all of the other problems it has?"

Then China starts to buy our grains and it becomes Americans who starve because there is "a scarcity of income" for them to buy it, but of course they'll take great comfort that there's "no scarcity of food."

"There is no scarcity of food but rather a scarcity of income to buy it for the poorest of the poor"
-Vinod Khosla

Mr. Khosla

I urge you to spread you bets. Invest in a wide range of energy technology ideas. I admire your efforts and your intent to be pragmatic, but the number of assumptions for ethanol to work out just seem a bit disconnected with that pragmatism.

Trajectory means nothing if it falls off a cliff. What was the growth trajectory of every fad before the fad ended? The tragectory must be sustainable over the long run. There are physicial limits to our world and it's resources. People who ignore them do so at their own peril.

I counted at least 10 ethanol projects of varying nature the VK is invested in.  

How many did you count?

That's a lot of eggs in that one ethanol basket. I hope he changes his mind on Electric Vehicles.
What is so great about ethanol? Seriously, this is not an issue in Europe.

The strategy here is different:

Synthetic Diesel May Play a Significant Role as Renewable Fuel in Germany
In their quest to comply with tighter emission standards, car manufacturers developed new engines and specially-designed fuels for these engines in order to reduce emissions below the maximum levels.  Current fuel research focuses on two concepts: gas-to liquid (GTL) and biomass-to-liquid (BTL).  Both concepts use a synthetic gas to produce a liquid fuel, however they use different feedstocks.  GTL uses "flared gas" from petroleum production that is currently burned.  BTL uses a synthetic gas derived from biomass.  While biodiesel and bio-ethanol production so far only use parts of a plant, i.e. oil, sugar or starch, BTL production uses the whole plant.  The result is that for BTL - less land area is required per unit of energy produced compared with biodiesel or bio-ethanol.
In Germany, Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler started projects on BTL-technology.  Volkswagen called their fuel "SunFuel" while DaimlerChrysler's fuel was named "Biotrol" (biomass + petrol = biotrol). Nowadays both companies work together with a company called Choren  and call the fuel "sundiesel".  Choren is located in Freiberg (Saxony) and has developed the so-called and patented "Carbo-V®" gasification process.

According to Choren it takes 5 tons of biomass to produce 1 ton of sundiesel and 1 hectare generates 4 tons of sundiesel.  A plant producing 13,000 tons per year would need the biomass of 50,000 ha.  In recent years the German set-aside area amounted to roughly 1 million ha. This could generate 4 million tons of sundiesel, which is about 13 percent of current diesel use in Germany.

DaimlerCrysler expects that BTL fuels could achieve a market share of 10 % in Europe by 2015.  Volkswagen cites a study that sees the production potential for BTL at 70 million MT of fuel in the EU-15, which would amount to one third of the fuel currently used by all vehicles (cars and trucks) in the EU-15.

http://www.fas.usda.gov/pecad/imagery_archive/highlights/2005/01/btl0104/syntheticdiesel.htm

When the article was published, biodiesel was still tax free as well, but this has changed by now.
I guess our bet is BTL-fuel.

In Europe the focus is on diesel fuel for diesel cars.

In North America the focus rests on ethanol for gasoline powered vehicles.

Thanks for enlightening me. Stupid me.
European and Japanese car makers have been focussing on diesel for many years now. One must also note that taxes on diesel are much lower than taxes on gasoline in Europe. As a result, gasoline is 0,2€/l more expensive than diesel.
The mileage of diesel cars is higher than that of gasoline cars. Extra-fine particle filters have been introduced recently, so that now, emissions from diesel cars are lower than those from gasoline cars as well, except for NOx.
Thanks Siggi, interesting stuff.

Do you know any EROEI figures for these things? Or someplace were I can find it?

The personal automobile is here to stay as long as it can.
I couldn't say it better.
Similar to Kunstler's: "We'll keep behaving the way we do until we can't, and then we won't."
My read of Mr. Khosla is that he's firmly entrenched in the 'market will adapt' camp. And, baring sudden shocks to the current economic system, he may very well be right. Given his history as a venture capitalist, one wouldn't expect him to take any other side.

His is the "status quo" world. Oil, ethanol, whatever - to him there is no principal difference, only an opportunity to be in on the ground floor of some next big thing. And, he may be right.

By arrogantly warning off those who, quite reasonably and legitimately, would question why 4% of the worlds population are swallowing 25% of the planet's available energy, Khosla demonstrates that he's firmly in the camp of other followers of 'realism', that same branch of philosophical thinking that believes its ok to export our domestic policy around the world using a gun as the principal tool of foreign policy implementation.

His realism-inspired world view casually dismisses the fundamental problems that energy-intensive so-called advanced societies have. Change? Not important to a venture capitalist.

Realism-inspired politicians are the same ones that have continued to deny global warming as a threat for many years. They are the ones that use words like "strategic need" in conjunction with military efforts in the middle east. Preserve the "status quo" is the political mantra. Close to full employment, low inflation = electoral success. Weapons manufacture is good for the economy; using weapons, on far off shores, is good for our energy supply. That's 'realism' in action. Change? No ambitious domestic politician will ever tread that path.

The 'status quo' view in itself wouldn't be a problem, if energy can be forecast as always available by contract or force, always plentiful, always cheap, and always benign to our local and global environment and climate.

Yet there are compelling reasons to believe that energy will fall into the "none of the above" category, particularly if peak oil is a) real and b) near.

In such a case its easy to envision a future where business, science, technology and warfare will be unable to deliver the necessary goods to fuel the 'status quo'.

Personally, I believe Khosla's brand of 'realism' and future-gazing is dangerous, but its all too common for its the status quo that most of us live by and accept, whether we concern ourselves with it or not. Its a form of myopia based on the premise that growth is a god to be worshipped above all else.

OK, three things:

  • Firstly, BIG thanks to Vinod Khosla for writing this. There's a huge wealth of material here for people interested in the debate from somebody who has clearly done a lot of thinking and research about it. There are a few areas I'm a bit unsure about (like the energy ratios of solar and petroleum ... I think this is a classic case of mixed definitions) BUT the rest of it all seemed to make a great deal of sense and provided a lot of food for thought. More real comments later.

  • Secondly, the pragmatic "what is do-able" line of thinking is one that resonates a lot with me. All electric cars or large scale deployment of expensive urban rail don't seem to be happening on a noticeable scale (maybe I just didn't look closely enough) whereas there are quite a lot of cellulosic ethanol startups and will probably be more soon. That implies quite a few people have reached the same conclusions.

  • Thirdly because this is such a long essay I am about to write a summary of the main points on my journal. I'll post it here when I'm done.
OK, you can find a shorter bulleted list of main points (with pictures to break it up a bit) here:

http://plan99.net/~mike/blog/

"In the context of the time required to scale up to a large-scale biorefinery industry, an annual biomass supply of more than 1.3 billion dry tons can be accomplished with relatively modest changes in land use and agricultural and forestry practices" (Technical Feasibility of a Billion-Ton Annual Supply, US Department of Energy Report, April 2005)

"Modest changes?" You gotta be kidding. Here's exactly what the report assumes to get 1.3 billion tons of biomass:

  • 55 million acres additional cultivation
  • 50% increase in yields of corn, soy, wheat and other grains
  • 75% removal of crop residues
  • Use of all animal manures except those allowed for field use
  • Removal of all other residues

This is not modest. Especially not increasing yields by another 50% and putting another 55 million acres into cultivation.

The document was appallingly one-sided. It had exactly ONE reference to the nutrient/fertility issue of removing so much biomass from nature, and it was buried in a bullet on p. 54:

"A particular concern has been raised regarding the effect of removing the nutrients embodied in residues. At a minimum, there is a cost associated with supplying the lost nutrients through fertilizer applications. If residue removal results in larger fertilizer applications, then the environmental and economic costs associated with producing and acquiring those fertilizers (nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium as well as micro-nutrients) must be considered. Production of nitrogen from natural gas is becoming more expensive..."

I would strongly suspect that Mr. Khosla does not have a garden for him to be such a proponent of mining our soils like this. Again, we will just be replacing Middle East oil imports with Middle East fertilizer imports.

sparaxis
I always like your comments
"55 million acres additional cultivation"
consider the water requirements. If you are looking for a 50% increase in yield these will not be dry-land crops. one acre of land requires 27,000 gallons of water per week. assume a six month growing season.702,000 gallons per acre.  55,000,000 x 702,000=38,610,000,000,000
I'm not great with math but I think this is right.
I'd like to make a small digression off the main topic.  I find sentences like this very interesting:

I support increased CAFÉ, free markets (I am not a fan of ethanol subsidies or import tariffs in today's environment and have proposed politically feasible compromises to reduce both: "A Near Term Energy Solution" at www.khoslaventures.com/resources.html ) as long as we ensure a level playing field which we don't have in the gasoline market today.

In a literal sense that's a contradiction, because free markets do not include CAFÉ, playing field assurances, or the environmental and safety standards we all take for granted.

What's really interesting to me though is the way the mental image of a "free market" is projected in American politics.  It's some sort of line in the sand, but I'm not sure if it means "market interventions we all like" or if it is just a name slapped on the status quo?

... that's what I see on conservative sites anyway, that we can't change the way things are, because we like "free markets."

"Free market" as a term used to describe the U.S./global economic system is an oxymoron.  The 'free market' is highly distorted to the advantage of investors and corporations and has proven exceptionally efficient at producing profit while maximizing externalization of costs.

I recognize that there are corporations and investors who are not intent on maximizing profit and externalizing costs.  IMO, until such time as the underlying "free market" system changes dramatically, or collapses, they are swimming against the tide.

Wasn't Sun Microsystems in court against Microsoft regarding a level playing field for years?
250 million acres goes to feedstock and 350 million acres are range land. Let's say we convert all of these to biomass production. 15 tons per acre biomass. That's 9 billion tons of biomass. Figuring about 30 million gallons of gasoline equivalent ethanol per billion tons, that's about 300 million gallons gasoline equivalent. However every inch of cultivable land is now used in the production of ethanol. There would be no substitute for the protein that is eliminated. There would be no water for irrigation. The soil would be denuded within a generation.
Our scientists work on low theoretical yields of 100 gallons per ton of ethanol/methanol and high order alcohols from gasified biomass.

At 10 tons per acre of biomass (modest) that's 1000 gallons per.

Using these parameters, please calculate how many acres are needed to produce 140 million gallons.

How many commerical farms and ethanol plants are producing biomass ethanol at this rate?

Please understand, I'd love to see it happen, but right now you are making me a promise.  You are telling me the cellulosic ethanol is in the mail.

The one thing I would like to know from Mr. Khosla is whether he has seen the linkage between solving our waste problems and producing electricity and cellulosic ethanol through syngas fermentation of waste biomass? Ag, forestry, and urban waste are huge repositories of feedstock ready to be converted.

California is facing a "Peak Landfill" problem simultaneously with Peak Oil. My BioConversion Blog is about efforts to solve both with conversion technologies.

He is welcome to help fight for new waste related legislation that would permit the rapid deployment of waste-to-ethanol solutions - like the already passed RENEW L.A. plan for Los Angeles. He should contact Sen. David Roberti (ret.) of the BioEnergy Producers Assn. for how he can help.

They could also talk about the efficacy of Prop. 87.

His main point, and I agree wholeheartedly, is that the issue is TRAJECTORY, TRAJECTORY, and TRAJECTORY.  We may disagree on this and that but the main issue is creating a bridge from petro based to solar based energy harvest.  I commend his thoughtful presentation.

There are many nits to pick but the basic premise of this article is that we need to find a transition path that creates enough profit incentive to make Wall Street jump on board.

I was pleased to note that he does not consider ethanol and endall beall but rather a transitional phase to other biohols such as butanol.  Mr. Rapier has made favorable comments about butanol as an oil substitute.

Overall I think this article is on a par with the best and raises the general level of discourse on TOD.

I linked to Wall Street's New Love Affair over in the drumbeat.

FWIW, I think Wall Street is used to competing plans and ideas, and betting across the board.  It strikes me as a contradiction actually, to suggest that the market needs to be told a specific trajectory.

Odegraph - I wish I had your patience sometimes.

The market is blind as a bat too sometimes.  That's why we get those big cliffs and other neat stuff on those graphs.  Godz I love those graphs... the Longer Term the Better.

Well, while I wait for technology winners I've powered-down quite a bit.  I'd feel more comfortable if "power down at least until we figure out what's up" was a national message.
Clap  clap

Alas, it won't be.    Because I'd be asking "What about them useless eaters on the dole just up the street."   And I'm talking about the brother-in-law's wife.

Does anyone think the poor on assistance will go quietly into the good night?

The old claim is that 7 million Chinese civil servants use as much energy annually as 780 million Chinese farmers.  Somehow I don't see the poor trailing on powerdowan.
Somehow I don't see the poor trailing on powerdowan.

The poor WILL be effected.   The question becomes "What will be their reaction"   It doesn't HAVE to be ALL the poor who have a 'bad' reaction.  Just a few is all that's needed to have a nice clap-down.

Well, my original point was about powering down.  I can't remember the name of the "rule" or whatever, but it's something about magnitudes greater than 3.  If you've got X dollars, and are worried about a cost (or gain) 3 magnitudes (10^3) lower in scale, forget about it.  Conversely, hit the big items first.

In powering down, shouldn't we look at the big energy users first?  They are the ones that drag the per-capita averages higher, not the poor.

I think you are talking about a power down "clap-down" that would affect the poor ... maybe I'm thinking that the most effective power down strategies would protect them?

Note that the Chinese answer to that 7 million civil servants and 700+ million farmers thing was to get the civil servants to cut their energy use, not to target the farmers.
By the way, the fossil energy ratio of electricity today is four times worse than corn ethanol according to the Argonne National Labs GREET model

This only makes sense if you are using electricity to generate heat and are comparing it with a 100% percent efficient burner of the ethanol. If you are using it for mechanical power you need to factor in the conversion efficiency of the ethanol to mechanical energy compared with the efficiency of conversion of electricity to mechanical power.

According to Wiki a battery electric vehicle uses 0.3-0.5 kWhr per mile against the US fleet average gasoline vehicle of 1.58 kWhr per mile. This claims back the 4:1 advantage. Half of the energy consumption of the electric vehicle is accounted for by the losses in charging and discharging the battery. If you were to compare grid powered vehicles (trains, trams, trolley buses) most of that loss will disappear and you would be well ahead. Furthermore a large part of the fossil fuel input to present corn ethanol is natural gas whereas a large part of the fossil fuel input for electricity generation is coal. The thermal efficiency of coal plants is 35% to 40% but the thermal efficiency of combined cycle natural gas plants is 60% to 65%.

Compare the number of miles you can get out of a vehicle from a quantity of the typical fossil fuel mix that goes into corn ethanol on the two routes fossil fuel - ethanol - internal combustion engine and fossil fuel - electricity - battery vehicle and you will be comparing like with like and I expect the electrical route with come out top.

To tag along in things electrical,  I have to take issue with the 'Efficiency' of Solar Panels, which he generously put at 15%, but the use of that number is frankly misleading in this context.  Many panels get an even meaker share of the assumed 1kw/sqMeter standard, down to 6% or so, but that is NOT in comparison with the inputs or moneys that created that panel, only with the 'Solar Potential' within it's collector-area, and so it is not relative to the energy-equations of a given power supply.  It also isn't necessary to compare it's area against 'cropland used', since clearly Solar Electric can and should be part of our Roofing and Shading strategy, and not even be considered for placing above arable soil.

Broadly, Solar Panels will produce enough power in 2-6 years to 'replace' their materials (embodied energy) and direct energy inputs, yet they will still produce at healthy levels for around 20-30 years, before they start really falling off.  That offers an EROEI of over 3:1, before you count the panel's 'Senior Years', which still produce, if only 1/3-2/3 of it's rated power.  After that, the components are available to be reprocessed, making the energy profile of it's 'children' that much more attractive.

http://www.homepower.com/files/pvpayback.pdf
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf

http://www.energybulletin.net/14745.html
EROEI (Energy Return on Energy Invested) for Various Fuels

Biodiesel- 3:1
Coal- 1:1 to 10:1
Ethanol- 1.2:1
Natural Gas- 1:1 to 10:1
Hydropower- 10:1
Hydrogen- 0.5:1
Nuclear- 4:1
Oil- 1:1 to 100:1
Oil Sands- 2:1
Solar PV (2) - 1:1 to 10:1
Wind (2) - 3:1 to 20:1

(Financial Payback for a PV consumer is still considered to be 12+ years. That will change as it is a comparison against your local Electricity rates, however, which are clearly not set in stone.)

Bob Fiske

I don't see the benefits of solar energy harvesting through biomass. The current estimates are that with biomass the energy density is 1 watt per square meter. Even a solar stirling engine gets at least 50 times this energy density. What exactly is the point of going with ethanol? Converting electricity to hydrogen will get a tremendous boost in efficiency by running fuel cells in reverse.
Because:

  • Stirling engines are not proven. My first post here was asking about them, and one guy (was it westexas?) seemed to think they had serious mechanical reliability problems.

  • You cannot easily convert electricity into vroom-vroom. Liquid fuels are tractable, battery tech right now isn't really.
Here is jonny -one-note again on stirling engines. It is very important to keep in mind that they come in two flavors- crank (so-called kinematic) engines, and free piston engines. The crank engines have big problems with keeping the oil in the crank case away from the hot heat exchangers in the engine. Also they have problems keeping the high pressue helium or hydrogen inside the engine, as well as power control problems. The mean time to failure on crank engines is  short- maybe several thousand hours.  Many hundreds of millions of dollars have been expended  over decades on crank engines and these problems still exist.

Free piston stirling engines are simple linear oscillators and have no crank, or any lubrication other than their working gas. They  have been developed by NASA for space isotope power in applications requiring   long life and high efficiency- making them quite promising for solar use.  The space power requirement per unit is small- on the order of hundreds of watts to a few kilowatts, but there is no intrinsic barrier to much higher power.

However, as far as I know, there is no work being done on solar free piston engines, for reasons I have not found. They seem ideally suited for this purpose, as well as for  cogeneration, biomass and many similar applications.

BTW- Stirlings do not require any exotic metals or processes, and should not be any more expensive than other heat engines requiring a hot heat exchanger.

Khosla thanks for writing this, I like your optimistic out look and your desire to find answer.

 I think your premise is given enough money and people working on a problem all things can be solved, I counter not all things can be solved, we can not cheat the underlying laws of the universe, we can not go faster than light, we might be able to get where we want using something like wormholes to warp space but we can not cheat laws of physics and go faster than light.

 So the questions are:

 Can we get a net energy from ethanol without any hydrocarbon additions without cheating the laws of physics?

 Can the land actually sustain such a use, is there that much renewable energy in the land, or will we have peak soil?

 On both of these I find it highly questionable that they are true, and if they are it's cutting it very fine. Because all the math done by everybody else says it's a looser or not a very good net energy producer, the way you increase net energy is to increase the yield at what point in time does that not become feasible?

  Basically you're advocating using vast amounts of land/food to keep us driving.

 Plus with the ever increasing population we either have to increase energy production or efficiency so that energy demands of the population is meant, either that or the life style of the world is going to change.

 Oh and I don't believe for a moment any serious energy investor doesn't know about peak oil, or about the energy crunch coming.  So to say "We have a number of different ways to do it except that no investor is willing to bet on these price points being viable. " must tell us that the bet is that we can't change things to make it happen.

 Personally I like the nanotubes that use sunlight that produces hydrogen and of course getting of planet earth as are best pipe dreams.

Reading the whole post, it is evident Mr. Khosla approaches everything from a sales/marketing perspective, which is understandable. As the lack of positive EROEI from corn ethanol is a major problem for his sales pitch he addresses this by simply stating that it is irrelevant (the other choice would have been to not discuss it at all). What is extremely important is TRAJECTORY. I am not sure what this means but I assume it means potential growth in the efficiency of the technology. I am far from an ethanol wiz, but from reading RR's posts I understood that currently you cannot run a corn ethanol plant on corn ethanol, as the EROEI is negative. Sounds kinda relevant to me. What it says is that other sectors of your economy will need to subsidize your liquid fuel from corn ethanol trip, and the bigger this trip gets, the bigger the necessary subsidy. Maybe VK should have said that corn ethanol EROEI is currently negative but will improve as the TRAJECTORY rockets into space, but he doesn't as he feels EROEI is meaningless for some reason.  
My reactions:  I had a hard time getting through the "stop reading" paragraph.  Seems to me all those issues are very much on the table, I refuse to ignore them.  That would be unscientific...
As for the rest, I'm interested in what we CAN do, but I'm more interested in what we WILL do.  Or really what we ARE doing.  Which includes wars and droughts and tuna and manatees.  And collapses and extinctions and "conspiracies".
So, Vinod, enjoy making your money.  I'll bet ya some morning you'll wake up and say "uh oh"...
 He won't be saying "uh oh", he'll make a helluva lot of money off of ethanol. The fact that ethanol is a distraction from the problem instead of a solution does not seem to concern him.
 He has found a junkie that is desperate for a fix and while he doesn't have the preferred juice, he is pushing something that will make him money.
 If Mr Khosla is an indicator of the direction our leadership is taking our country, we are as a society , screwed.
 Dismissive of EROEI, dismissive of the potential negative impacts of harvesting fuel from our topsoil, unwilling to negotiate our currently obscene obsession with the automobile.
 Before I read his letter, I honestly hoped, he would present a view that would give me reason for optimism.
 Instead , he reinforced my opinion that there will be no solution that originates from the top of the mountain.

 

I kind of agree, although I don't really question his motives for trying to do good.  This month's transportation column in Governing Magazine was about the anniversary of the interstate highway system (perhaps the largest federal government subsidy in the history of the world), it had the blurb below regarding Lewis Mumfords reaction to the authorization which i think applies to Mr Khosla and large-scale ethanol:

<><><>
"When the American people, through their Congress, voted a little while ago for a $26 billion highway program, the most charitable thing to assume about this action is that they hadn't the faintest notion of what they were doing."

He (Mumford) was concerned that soon it would be "too late to correct the damage to our cities and our countryside, not least to the efficient organization of industry and transportation, that this ill-conceived and preposterously unbalanced program will have wrought."
<><><>

I just really hope that none of my tax dollars go to this destructive endeavor.  Although it probably will.  

Link to the article in case you are interested

http://www.governing.com/articles/8trans.htm

Yeah, I heard a caller on the Randi Rhodes Show on Air America saying how the highways were a mistake like you say, and she just dismissed it and went on about gouging and alternative fuels. Other people have mentioned peak oil too, but she always manages to address some other aspect and not that. They know. They probably aren't allowed to talk about it.
Although I would go as far as saing Highways were a mistake in total.  The engine and car is a pretty nifty invention.  But this technological slave has become the master.  I agree with Mumford

"Mumford goes on to detail all the ways that traditional urban planners and engineers had mistaken the simple application of more concrete for a well-balanced transportation program. At one point, he calls it a "fatal mistake" to sacrifice all other forms of transportation to the automobile -- the only exception being the airplane. "There is no one ideal mode or speed," he wrote. "Human purpose should govern the choice of the means of transportation. That is why we need a better transportation system, not just more highways."

Darn, it should have read "I would not go as far as saying...
Problem is that corn is used in many other products and there are concerns that it could be another source of inflation!

Adhesives, Cardboard, Construction Materials, Detergents, Paper, Textiles, Plasterboard  
Adhesives, Animal Feed, Bookbinding, Laminated Building Products, Enzymes, Leather Tanning, Lubricating Agents, Metal Plating
Antibiotics, Enzymes, Coatings, Insecticides, Organic Solvents, Plasticizers, Shampoo

Antibiotics, Aspirin, Baked Goods, Candies, Condiments, Mixes & Instant Preparations, Processed Meats, Puddings

Baby Food, Bologna and Hot Dogs, Chewing Gum, Cookies & Crackers, Dessert Mixes, Fruit Drinks, Canned Foods, Cereals, Medicinal Syrups, Pickles, Salad Dressings, Seasoning Mixes

Brownies & Baked Goods, Canned Fruits, Cheese Spreads, Cured Meats (such as bacon), Dessert Mixes, Intravenous Solutions, Jams & Jellies, Soda Fountain Preparations, Marshmallows, Soups

Carbonated Beverages, Fruit Fillings, Cereals, Frostings, Ice Cream & Frozen Desserts, Pancakes, Pastries, Relishes & Sauces, Syrups & Dessert Toppings

Ethanol, Citric Acid, Lactic Acid, Essential Amino Acids, Sugar Alcohols

src: source

Should we be worried about the following charts:


src: Ethanol Reshapes the Corn Market


Khebab,

I am sure corn is used in all of these processes, but part of the reason for that is its subsidized low cost.  Big Corporate corn has lobbys and pays big research grants to those that find new uses for it (like ethanol). My organic chem teacher told me you can make anything out of any carbohydrate, save straw to gold.

I think the key is to get lean.  More insulation less AC smaller cars and not a bit of chemical potential wasted.  Yard debris industrial waste whatever all utilized, and simultaneously put solar panels on every roof and windmills on every ridge. We have the tech NOW, we just need to commit.

matt

You're probably right but the problem with this kind of oil alternative is that it can have unexpected consequences on other industries where grain is a traditional and necessary input. These consequences are hard to predict and very often overlooked.
Before I popped over hear to TOD, I saw this at EnergyBulletin:

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9065-2302045,00.html

It talks about some issues in the UK with the competition between food and fuel.

I recently read that if every ethanol plant now being proposed for Iowa is actually built, that they will use more than 100% of the corn in Iowa.  (Sorry, I can't find that reference right now.)

Also, the price of corn has gone up enough that it is cutting into the profits of hog producers.  (Des Moines Register, June 10, 2006)

How very handy for them corn producers. They vote, don't then? ;-)
Very interesting reading. The only thing that I did not see included were some projections on present needs vs future needs as a result of population growth.
If population growth continues unabated in the USA and the world then you are shooting at a moving target as to how much liquid energy and total energy we will need to produce.
I would encourage you to add population growth projections and their effect upon the required needs for both food, fuel and total energy.
I suspect those population stats might change some of your projections significantly.
Thanks
Re: The personal automobile is here to stay

Yes, that's right. When gasoline is $6 or more, the question becomes

Here to stay for who?

Here to stay for who?

My sense is that neither Ford nor GM will make it. Those companies are an integral part of the trajectory proposed.

In fact... they are the foundation of that trajectory , are they not?

I wouldn't lay my chips on the domestic auto industry. Think hard TOD'ers... Are any of you visiting GM/Ford dealers? Are they part of your transportation thoughts?

Khosla begins with the following:

  • If you are one of the people who think modern civilization is on the verge of collapse, stop reading.

  • If you think all rich people are bad or everyone has evil or self-interest as their only goal, stop reading.

  • People do care and while there are many people, and especially large corporations, who only care about their self-interest, there are people and corporations (large and small) who care about what happens on this planet.

  • Also stop reading if you believe in massive conspiracies,

  • [Stop reading if you] want to revolutionize the world with rebellion,

  • [Stop reading if you want to] change the consumption pattern (4% of world population consuming 25% of its resources- I hate it too but don't count on it changing) overnight,

  • [Stop reading if you want to] dramatically change behavior like getting Americans to drive less(lots of idealized solutions I can think of but it won't happen except through legislation like higher CAFÉ or higher gasoline prices, and most such legislation is politically infeasible).

O.K. Well, if this list was a test then I would certainly get at least a passing grade, so I guess I should stop reading. Causes me to ask though why Khosla is directing folks who agree with some of these points not to read his post, or maybe he just dosen't want them to read and then comment on it.

We do generally agree that this is a "pitch" from a VC right? i.e. a selective presetation of "information" by, and in support of, declared financial interests. But we are being encouraged by RR to treat it with more "respect" than the ones that my email client helpfully sweeps into my junk mail folder every day touting the latest "stock not to miss".

Well then as a courtesy to Robert lets select a point for examination:  

"Cellulosic will make all these issues much less critical - Miscanthus will use a lot less water and almost no fertilizer...

At the best of three sites in the best of two years, a yield of 25 dry tons per acre per year was realized. We assume this best yield will become the average yield after twenty five years, across 40-60 million acres of good cropland that is currently used for export oriented crops

...We personally believe that it is likely we will use dedicated energy crops (cocktails of C4 photosynthetic grasses like Miscanthus) on lands that are currently used to produce export crops and 40-60 million acres of this land will be sufficient to meet most of our gasoline needs."

That works out to a range of between 1 and 1.5 billion tons dry weight of biomass per year. If we allow for the invested energy in the production cycle, as surly we must and it seems that the eere paper does not, and we were to pull a wild ass guess of 3:1 out of the air as a ratio (which I suspect is high but I'm trying to be kind) then we wind up with more like 5 billion tons required.

Would someone who is not financially invested in the matter care to opine in an informed way about what the gross and trace nutirnt amounts contained in that 5 billion tons might be, and how it could be "sustainably" extracted from the soil?

Re: If you are one of the people who think modern civilization is on the verge of collapse, stop reading

That's when I stopped reading.  

It was the revolutionize the world with rebellion that kept me reading.
I was curious as to how an optimist would promote revolution with peace.
I was let down... The topic of this essay could have easily been the stop reading points alone.
think small,think fast ...peace
I easily passed his wickets except for three:

"If you are one of the people who think modern civilization is on the verge of collapse, stop reading."

Now, civilization is always evolving and changing.  I think that in the next 100 or so years the change will be at least as rapid as in the last 100 years, just in a very different direction.  Whether you consider it a collapse will depend on your perspective I think.    

The other two are very similar:

"[Stop reading if you want to] change the consumption pattern (4% of world population consuming 25% of its resources"

and

"[Stop reading if you want to] dramatically change behavior like getting Americans to drive less"

I simply think these things will happen, we don't need to make them happen or help them happen.  We should be preparing for when they do happen.

So, I think with these clarifications I passed his gates and therefore was (according to him) legitimately able to continue reading.    

Re: I simply think these things will happen, we don't need to make them happen or help them happen. We should be preparing for when they do happen

Well said. Now, regarding "If you are one of the people who think modern civilization is on the verge of collapse, stop reading".

Many of us are accused of being doomers. If one stops to think about it, why would any of us be writing about peak oil and related subjects if we didn't think modern civilization was in serious trouble? Why would we bother?

"Many of us are accused of being doomers. If one stops to think about it, why would any of us be writing about peak oil and related subjects if we didn't think modern civilization was in serious trouble? Why would we bother?"

... it would be sad to miss the turn-off to a happy, sustainable, powered down, tech'd up, future.

Here's a thought, Vinod:  Spend some time reading the information at this web site:

http://www.energybulletin.net/news.php

Most TOD readers do.

I see a lot of unsupported statements, assumptions and best-case scenarios very skillfully constructed.  Here is what he needs to show:  The world uses about 80 million barrels of crude per day, which I estimate to be about 22,700 calories per person per day.  If he can show me how the world is going to grow enough food to feed everyone, plus another10 times that amount in energy crops, then I might start to share his optimism.  

He also seems to rely quite a bit on the false analogy of improvements in electronics.  Moving electrons around doesn't take the amount of energy it takes to move cars around.  There may continue to be ways to make a faster processor, but the minimum amount of energy required to accelerate a car is set by "non-negotiable" physical laws.  

While there are technical solutions that still need to be found, such as improved electricity storage, by far the greatest gains will be cultural - by simply adjusting to using less energy.  I suggest reading Energy and Equity by Ivan Illich (there are free copies on the internet that are easy to find using Google).  He proposed that we are at a point where all of the available energy we have actually diminishes contentment.  I think a lower energy lifestyle could be a good thing if its done right.

Microprocessor design is very much constrained by the laws of physics. Why do you think they haven't got above 4ghz for years?

In practice, the laws of physics regarding processor speed were "bent" through the use of clever tricks like speculative execution, branch prediction, transparent caches ....

I generally use speculative execution in my car when I'm lost. Irritates my wife no end, and I'm not sure it helps my mileage.
sing to tune of "Blowing in the wind":

        How many roads must a man drive down
        Before he admits he is lost
        Why when a man becomes married is he
        unable to find his own socks.

        How many times will it take 'til he knows
        he has seen the three stooges enough

        The answer my friend, I cannot comprehend
        The answer, I cannot comprehend

        How many shows can a man surf through
        before the remote burns out
        Why does he think that an intimate gift
        is a Dustbuster Plus for the house

        How many sounds can a man's body make
        before he sleeps on the couch

        The answer my friend, is take two aspirin
        The answer is take two aspirin

        Why when we go for a romantic drive
        do we wind up at Builder's Square again
        How many nights will he leave the seat up
        so I land on cold porcelain

        How men really feel is mystery to me
        and probably a mystery to them

        The answer girlfriend is driving me to gin
        The answer is driving me to gin.


On the electronics revolution and laws of physics:

I think it's plainly obvious to say that the macroscopic trajectory in electronics from, e.g. 1960 to now has been of tremendous improvements.

That's because in 1960 we weren't at all hitting immutable, fundamental, limits of physics.  The size of the devices were much larger than the sizes of atoms so there was room for many orders of magnitude improvement.

Feynman understood this back then: "There's a lot of room down there"

That's the underlying physics behind Vinod Kholsa's life.

Things are profoundly different, and more pessimistic, with energy engineering.   We already know where the fundamental limits are (thermodynamics) and present processes do not have orders of magnitude spare headroom in them.

The Ford model-T got about 25 miles per gallon fuel efficiency.   Cars now are about the same, and probably 2x the mass.   So in 80 years and titanic investment, a factor of two.  That's thermodynamics.  

mb,
No, that's the Carnot cycle.  And friction brakes.  Batteries and regenerative braking do have the potential to double or triple fuel economy, and its not practical to have one without the other, so internal combustion engines have to go.
I happen to think ethanol is a good stop-gap.  It uses existing fuel distribution infrastructure, and much of the technology developed for "biohols" will also be useful for feedstocks and polymers long after the market for ICE ethanol fuel collapses (it will, when a practical fuel cell comes along).
I think Feynman's essay was titled "There's lots of room at the bottom".  A look at a thermodynamics text would convince you there's lots of delta-G too.
Mr. Khosa,

Thank you for sharing your thought process and where you are headed in this vital field. I think that you are doing an awful lot of things very well (the diversified investments, building outwards from corn, working within the existing ICE infrastructure, the e3 integrated system approach, land "spent" on meat production, etc.).

I have a question and a comment. Water availability and consumption is a problem for ethanol plants already here in Minnesota. Won't this be an issue for most any plant west of the Mississippi?

And the comment. You make a very compelling case that we will be able to transition away from fossil fuel for mobile energy usage. Electricity is similarly resolvable. The energy constraint that worries me the most is for home heating. If reliance on LNG from the Middle East/Africa isn't wise for many of the same reasons that relaince on petroleum from the Middle East/Africa isn't wise, how will we heat our homes and buildings? Besides passive and active solar energy, biomass is our best bet. This may result in a competition for the fuel supply.

Thanks again.

Incidentally I'd be really interested in hearing more about the low cost housing and high efficiency lighting initiatives!
There are some small manufacturers in India trying to commercialize LED lighting, using solar powered batteries and also bycicle pedalling (charge batteries by cycling a stationary bicycle). But as you can imagine this is for those villages that are not currently on the grid. The final users are satisfied, but only when they are the ones who didnt have bright artificial lighting 24x7. For them some light is better than light via candle or vegetable oil burning wicks or kerosene lamps. The logic of the NGOs promoting this is that basically hte lifestyle of those villagers is such that if they have artificial light for even 3 hours a day - an hour before dawn and a couple of hours after dusk - that can make a remarkable improvement in the quality of their lifestyle.
LED lighting is not all that efficient at present and does not have as big an advantage in lifetime as some reports suggest.

The most efficient white light LED I could find with sufficient output to be considered for lighting is the LUMILEDS LXK2 PW14-V00 which gives 113.6 lumens for 3.72W electrical input. That's 30.5 lumens/watt. It has a life of 50,000 hrs down to 70% of output  provided you heatsink it enough to keep the junction temperature down to 120°C

An Osram 4ft T5 fluorescent tube type FH28850 gives 2600 lumens for 28W electrical input. That's 92.8 lumens/watt, over three times the efficiency of the LED. It has a lifetime of 20,000 hours down to 90% of output. It is also 30 times cheaper per lumen.

Our industrial agriculture already uses alot of land for other purposes than food.  Cotton and tobacco are two obvious examples.  I therefore ignore the food versus fuel rhetoric and any global calculations of the amount of land required suffers from the too simplistic assumptions required when looking at it from a national scale.

Looking at it from the farm level for biomass production to be feasable it will have to attract a better price than alternative crops.  If you could show a farmer that he will net more money per acre growing hay for biofuel than he will growing cotton, corn or soybeans then I have no doubt the land will become available.  

I would be interested in the author's estimate for the farm gate price of the biomass that is to be supplied to the cellulose ethanol plants.  What fraction of the final price of the ethanol will the farmer receive?  

 

sheesh... the issue is survival.
Mr K got a pantry full of food and a back up generator to his back up generator... good and hired hands to carry him down the street. what ever floats yur log.
Now with all due respect... stop tryin!
you got a family? Are they all alone and on there own?
Funny how anyone thinks they are going to figure it out.
because I'm tellin you its just the  way it is.
Don't need the verb or and adjective... get over it. How old are you anyway? Got your health? STOP the humanitarian crap. Take care of yourself in a humble sorta quiet way, and remember "You can't change the world because you can't change yourself."
Not Doom or Gloom ... just another day in the life!!!
Boo !!!
Oh after preview how about going back in time ? say 150 years or so an sluggin it out on a homestead ... anywhere.
No thanks , but mankind will do what it has to do.
Kind of sad that something always ends up dead. Maybe if you could convince the world not to be so mean (evil) things would improve? Oh no... not another religous zealot...
sheeesh.... fanatics can't live with them, Can't get away from them. And don't it just get your goat when somebody chews your ass and then calmly tells you to "Have a nice Day!"
The Buddha was teaching a lesson to his pupils by a stream, and during the class, a Scorpion had fallen into the water.  The Master reached in and brought the creature to safety, but also got a sting.

 "Teacher, you saved its life, but it stung you."  Remarked a student.
 "Yes, that is what they do."

Later on, the Scorpion managed to fall in once again, and again, the Enlightened one reached in and rescued it.. and got another sting.

 "Master, you saved the Scorpion again, knowing it would try to sting you.  Why?"
 "Because that is what I do."

------

Sure it's survival, but one of the things we do to survive is to help others survive, too.  I think it not only puts people onto our team, but it also has to do with the encouragement of knowing that there are people out there who help each other, sometimes at great peril to themselves.

"Boddhisattva, won't you take me by the hand?"

(Another religious fanatic..)
Bob Fiske

well... sure but try not to step on my blue suede shoes.
My momma bought em.
One of Mr. Khosla's stated principles is that 'EROEI is irrelevant'. That right there tells me he is on the wrong side of this argument.

He then goes on to state that the 1.3 to 1.8 ratio for ethanol is far better than the 0.8 ratio for gasoline and cites a study done by Argonne National Laboratories.

I have seen this sort of sleight-of-hand before. It rests on an innocent or (more likely) intentional confusion of the EROEI of primary energy production with the energy conversion efficiency of downstream energy uses.

 As best I can tell, the 0.8 number for gasoline comes from the refinery's conversion efficiency in making gasoline from crude oil. This is downstream production efficiency, not EROEI. The fallacy lies in the fact that the oil company did NOT have to expend 1 unit of fossil fuel energy to get 0.8 units of gasoline.

For example, if in today's oil industry it takes roughly (give or take) 1 unit of fossil fuel energy to extract and deliver 7 units of fossil fuel energy to the front end of the refinery, the EROEI of 'producing' crude oil is 7. Then if we apply 0.8 conversion efficiency to the refinery's gasoline production process, the overall EROEI from drilling the well to the gasoline leaving the refinery is 7 x 0.8 or 5.6.  

That is quite a bit different than Mr. Khosla's  0.8. As I said early, this sort of sleight-of-hand seems to have a way of popping up in a variety of stuff being written by ethanol proponents.

As The last Sasquatch so elegantly and entertainingly demonstrated in his recent little parable, EROEI DOES matter, and it matters immensely. Any energy strategy that is based on a marginal EROEI is eventually headed for death spiral.

For all the hype, ethanol is just another means of using a variety of fossil fuels to make liquid fuel usable in an IC engine and can in no way be portrayed as a primary energy source. Arguably, there are other more effective ways of turning natural gas and coal into liquid fuels.

Though I don't claim to be an agricultural expert, I also think that Mr. Khosla is just a bit too cavalier in his presumption that crop yields are going to continue to increase, that there will be no serious competition between food and fuel, and that massive biofuel production will be sustainable.

Good catch Joule.  I didn't think it would take long for someone to call VK on his so-called "apples to apples" comparison.
I'm sorry joule. I have to agree with VK on this. EROEI is irrelevant, and he's not tricking anyone. The only thing relevant is the physical volume of petroleum that is used to push your Hummer a specific distance down the street.

If you use straight dino fuels, that means for volume of fuel burned, you needed to extract 1.25 times that volume from the earth. The extra .25 (1/.8) goes into extraction and refining.

On the other hand, if you use ethanol, even if you assume ethanol has an EROEI of only 1:1, and even if you further neglect his argument that most of that comes from less desireable natural gas instead of more desireable petroleum, you still only use 1 volume of fuel for that same distance. This is because when calculating EROEI you don't discount for refining losses of turning the oil into useable diesel fuel, you only consider the energy value of the oil itself.

Thus, ethanol with an EROEI of 1 is already somewhat better than using straight fossil fuels. Even a slight negative balance is in theory OK, as long as it doesn't go too far negative. Clearly at .8 you're better off burning the oil directly.

If your energy inputs for ethanol comes from the sun, or from biomass, or from human or animal labor, then in every real sense those inputs are "free" and don't really matter in the peak oil picture. What does matter is what volume of rock oil was extracted to produce an energetically equivalent amount of ethanol.

EROEI is a red herring, and an extremely complicated one at that.

There are a couple of things wrong with your argument. First, you are certainly mixing apples and oranges by comparing 0.8 for gasoline to 1.2 for ethanol. They are not the same thing. A 1.2 EROEI for ethanol means you actually had to consume 1 BTU to produce 0.2 BTUs.

In the case of gasoline, 0.8 is the efficiency of turning 1 BTU of oil into gasoline. In this case, you burned 0.2 BTUs to produce 0.8 BTUs.

Which is better: Burning 1 BTU to make 0.2, or burning 0.2 to make 0.8? That is why EROEI is relevant. The people who don't seem to think it is seem to be the people who don't understand it very well.

A 1.2 EROEI for ethanol means you actually had to consume 1 BTU to produce 0.2 BTUs.

In the case of gasoline, 0.8 is the efficiency of turning 1 BTU of oil into gasoline. In this case, you burned 0.2 BTUs to produce 0.8 BTUs.

Now I'm confused.

EROEI is energy returned over energy invested. The EROEI of "doing nothing" should be 1.0 - that is, if you start with a barrel of oil and do nothing to it, you get one barrel out for one barrel in.

A 1.2 EROEI means that you get 1.2 barrels out with 1.0 barrels in. I don't think this is well expressed by saying that "you had to consume 1 BTU to produce 0.2 BTUs". This makes it sound like you start with 1 BTU and end with 0.2 BTU. Actually you end with 1.2 BTU.

So what happens with gasoline? You start with 1 BTU of oil and end up with 0.8 BTUs of gas, right? The EROEI is 0.8, which makes sense because no one thinks that turning oil into gasoline is an energy producing process. Whereas turning oil+natural gas into ethanol is (supposedly, slightly) energy producing.

Which is better: Burning 1 BTU to make 0.2, or burning 0.2 to make 0.8?

Is this really correct? With ethanol you walk in with 1 BTU of oil and natural gas, and walk out with only 0.2 BTUs of ethanol? While with gasoline you walk in with 0.2 BTUs of oil and walk out with 0.8 BTUs of gasoline? Surely both of these are completely wrong!

I don't think this is well expressed by saying that "you had to consume 1 BTU to produce 0.2 BTUs". This makes it sound like you start with 1 BTU and end with 0.2 BTU. Actually you end with 1.2 BTU.

I recognized that as soon as I posted it, but hoped it wouldn't be too confusing. What I meant to write was "you had to consume 1 BTU to NET 0.2 BTUs." For gasoline, you consume 0.2 BTUs to net 0.8 BTUs.

The EROEI is 0.8...

No, that is the efficiency.  You didn't "invest" 1 BTU of oil. What is invested is what was consumed in the process. The investment is only the 0.2 that was consumed. In the case of ethanol, you actually consumed 1.0 to earn 1.2.

In the case of ethanol, you actually consumed 1.0 to earn 1.2.

That's not the full story.
When you finally burn your 1.2 BTU's of ethanol you will have polluted the atmosphere with "roughly" 2.2 BTU's of fossil fuel burn and you will have depleted the soil of some finite amount of minerals and you will have depleted the aquifer of some finite amount of water.

(Understood that CO2 output rate for ethanol is less than for crude. That's why I said "roughly".)

When you finally burn your 1.2 BTU's of ethanol you will have polluted the atmosphere with "roughly" 2.2 BTU's of fossil fuel

No, the C in the ethanol started as CO2 in the atmosphere. The plants converted it to starch then the yeast converted into ethanol.

No, that is the efficiency.  You didn't "invest" 1 BTU of oil. What is invested is what was consumed in the process. The investment is only the 0.2 that was consumed. In the case of ethanol, you actually consumed 1.0 to earn 1.2.

What does it mean to say you "consume" only 0.2 BTUs of oil in making gasoline? That almost seems to say that you start with 1.0 BTUs of oil, and end up with 0.8 BTUs of oil (because you only "consumed" 0.2 BTUs), plus also the 0.8 BTUs of gasoline. This would mean you get 1.6 BTUs out with 1.0 BTUs in! But that is thermodynamically impossible.

Can you please describe it in the following terms: You start out with 1.0 BTU of source material (oil + natural gas). You end up with X BTUs of product (gasoline or ethanol). Isn't that simple and straightforward?

With ethanol, you end up with 1.2 BTUs of ethanol; with gasoline, you end up with 0.8 BTUs of gasoline. Isn't that how it works? In each case you fully consume your input (oil or natural gas).

Processing 1 BTU of oil takes 0.2 BTUs of energy. That is energy that is burned to make steam, for the most part. That is from oil in the ground to gasoline in your tank. You didn't consume the oil, you merely processed it to extract the gasoline, diesel, etc.

You aren't looking at ethanol in the same way. You are considering the BTUs of oil as input, but when you calculated the EROI for ethanol you didn't treat the corn as a BTU input. You calculate the BTUs that it takes to process the corn and produce the ethanol. In this way, you actually consume 1 BTU of energy to produce 1.2 BTUs of ethanol. You aren't counting the corn as consumed BTUs. The consumed BTUs are the fossil fuels that were burned in manufacturing the ethanol.

However, processing 1 BTU of oil only consumes 0.2 BTUs of energy. The EROI of oil is then 5/1, and for gasoline it is 1.2 to 1.

Robert, I'm sorry to seem dense here, but I'm still having trouble understanding you. I appreciate your patience.
Processing 1 BTU of oil takes 0.2 BTUs of energy. That is energy that is burned to make steam, for the most part. That is from oil in the ground to gasoline in your tank. You didn't consume the oil, you merely processed it to extract the gasoline, diesel, etc.
You say that we don't consume the oil, but it's gone, isn't it? We started with 1 BTU of oil and at the end we have 0 BTUs of oil, and 0.8 BTUs of gasoline. If the oil is gone, it seems to me merely a matter of semantics whether we say it is "consumed", "processed", or whatever. The bottom line is that the input to the process is 1 BTU of oil and the output is 0.8 BTUs of gasoline. Is that correct?

You aren't looking at ethanol in the same way. You are considering the BTUs of oil as input, but when you calculated the EROI for ethanol you didn't treat the corn as a BTU input. You calculate the BTUs that it takes to process the corn and produce the ethanol. In this way, you actually consume 1 BTU of energy to produce 1.2 BTUs of ethanol. You aren't counting the corn as consumed BTUs. The consumed BTUs are the fossil fuels that were burned in manufacturing the ethanol.
We don't count the BTUs of the corn as input, because they (mostly) come from sunlight, which is our energy source. They are the resource we are exploiting. To count the BTUs of the corn as an input would be as misleading as counting the BTUs of oil in the ground as an input in evaluating the EROEI of oil production. And indeed, I don't think you are counting corn BTUs in any of your statements about the EROEI of ethanol production.

For EROEI purposes, in making ethanol we start with 1 BTU of fossil energy (mostly natural gas, maybe some oil), and end with 1.2 BTU of ethanol.

It's true that in the ethanol case, the fossil fuels were burned, while in the gasoline case, they were chemically transformed. But I don't see why that is important. If we think of the process as a black box, we can just look at inputs and outputs. In the case of ethanol, we put in 1 BTU of fossil fuel and some hardened sunlight in the form of corn, and get out 1.2 BTUs of ethanol. In the case of gasoline, we put in 1 BTU of fossil fuel and get 0.8 BTUs of gasoline. That seems to be a fair, apples to apples comparison.

However, processing 1 BTU of oil only consumes 0.2 BTUs of energy. The EROI of oil is then 5/1, and for gasoline it is 1.2 to 1.
I am totally lost here. Rather than my trying to guess, please just tell me exactly what "processing" means here? And when you speak of "the EROI of oil" are you referring to the process of getting oil out of the ground, which is indeed often quoted as having an EROEI of about 5 to 1? Or are you still talking about processing oil to make gasoline, which surely no one would claim is a process that has a net production of energy, let alone an EROEI of 5!
Sorry to respond to my own message, but I read Robert's comments more carefully and I think I understand him better:

Processing 1 BTU of oil takes 0.2 BTUs of energy. That is energy that is burned to make steam, for the most part. That is from oil in the ground to gasoline in your tank. You didn't consume the oil, you merely processed it to extract the gasoline, diesel, etc.
OK, I see now. You are saying that you can start with 0.2 BTU of energy and use it to get 1 BTU of oil out of the ground (assuming oil production has a 5:1 EROEI), then convert that to gasoline and have 0.8 BTUs of gasoline (because the conversion has an EROEI of 0.8). This gives a net EROEI of 5 * 0.8 = 4.0.

Actually, I have a better way. Start with your 0.2 BTUs and get 1 BTU of oil out of the ground, convert it to gasoline for 0.8 BTUs, but don't stop there. Use that gasoline to get more oil out of the ground - at 5:1 that gives us 4 BTUs of oil, which produces 3.2 BTUs of gasoline. But keep going, with that 3.2 BTUs you can get 5*3.2 or 16 BTUs of oil, and turn that into 12.8 BTUs of gasoline! And it can keep going as long as you like. Enough cycles and you can make your EROEI be as big as you want.

Is this cheating? Well, no more than the original proposal IMO. If we're going to calculate the EROEI of gasoline by saying, first get some more oil out of the ground and then turn it to gasoline, why can't we do the same for ethanol? Rather than just using our energy directly as input to the ethanol process, we could use it to produce some extra oil first via the process above, and then use that as the input to the ethanol factory. We can get far more ethanol out that way.

I guess the lesson is that it is difficult to do a truly fair "apples to apples" comparison between ethanol and gasoline. For one thing, the inputs are really quite different - ethanol mostly uses natural gas and gasoline uses mostly crude oil.

Even if we could imagine an ethanol plant and production process that was somehow powered solely by crude oil, we still have the question highlighted above: what exactly should we compare between the two processes? In the ethanol case, we start with our crude oil and pour it into the fields and factory and out comes ethanol. For gasoline, should we compare just to the refinery, crude oil in and gasoline out? Or do we include the extra step of using the crude oil to produce even more crude oil out of the ground first, and then turning that into gasoline? (And if so, why not as I suggested repeat the process a few times?)

But really this is misleading because raw crude oil is not an input to either an ethanol factory or to an oil drilling and production operation. In the end I don't think EROEI is all that useful to compare such different processes. We need to fall back on old fashioned economics and look at which one makes financial sense. Turning things into dollars and cents produces a much more reliable apples to apples comparison.

I am also going to post this in EP's response to Mr. Khosla, as this is a pretty important topic.

You say that we don't consume the oil, but it's gone, isn't it? We started with 1 BTU of oil and at the end we have 0 BTUs of oil, and 0.8 BTUs of gasoline. If the oil is gone, it seems to me merely a matter of semantics whether we say it is "consumed", "processed", or whatever.

No. That's your misunderstanding here. The oil isn't "gone". Oil is made up of all of those various cuts: gasoline, diesel, etc. The processing involves, for example, distilling off the gasoline in a distillation column. This is where energy is actually consumed. You can put in 1 BTU of oil, and out comes 1 BTU of gasoline, diesel, fuel oil, etc. However, you have input 0.2 BTUs of fuel gas, to produce the steam to distill off the fractions. Your energy "invested" is only the 0.2 BTUs that were consumed. The oil is not "invested" because it still exists as fuel to power your vehicle.

The situation with ethanol is quite different. You actually have to burn 1 BTUs to produce 1.2 BTUs. Those BTUs are gone - no longer available as vehicle fuel, just as was the case of the 0.2 BTUs of fuel gas when you processed the oil.

We don't count the BTUs of the corn as input, because they (mostly) come from sunlight, which is our energy source.

That's not correct. Photosynthetic efficiency is very low. The corn BTUs come mostly from the natural gas that went into making the fertilizer. If you want to do the calculations for ethanol just like you did for gasoline, then you can either factor in the contained BTUs of corn (1 BTU of corn may net 0.2 BTUs of ethanol) or factor in the contained BTUs in a barrel of crude ethanol, and then the net after processing.

It's true that in the ethanol case, the fossil fuels were burned, while in the gasoline case, they were chemically transformed. But I don't see why that is important.

What are we after at the end of the day? We want a liquid fuel. In the case of ethanol, since the fossil fuels were burned, they are only available as liquid fuel after the ethanol is produced. In the case of oil, the oil is the liquid fuel, it's just mixed up with other things.

In the case of ethanol, we put in 1 BTU of fossil fuel and some hardened sunlight in the form of corn, and get out 1.2 BTUs of ethanol. In the case of gasoline, we put in 1 BTU of fossil fuel and get 0.8 BTUs of gasoline. That seems to be a fair, apples to apples comparison.

It's not apples to apples. Here is the easiest way to get past your confusion. I guarantee you that if you work this problem out, you will no longer be confused. Let's say I have 1 BTU of energy that I am willing to invest in order to produce a liquid fuel. This BTU is energy that will be consumed in the process of producing the fuel. Typically this will involve some combination of electricity and natural gas. How much will I end up with if I invest in ethanol, versus investing in gasoline?

I am totally lost here. Rather than my trying to guess, please just tell me exactly what "processing" means here? And when you speak of "the EROI of oil" are you referring to the process of getting oil out of the ground, which is indeed often quoted as having an EROEI of about 5 to 1?

The 5/1 is from oil in the ground to gasoline in your tank. I assume oil extraction of 10/1 (the world average is actually 17/1) and the refining step is also 10/1. Then the entire process is 5/1 (or 8.5/1 if we use the world average oil production value). By processing, I mean the same kind of steps you use to make ethanol from crude ethanol. The first processing step is distillation. In the case of ethanol, it removes the water from the ethanol. In the case of oil, the various fractions (gasoline, diesel, etc.) are removed.

In the case of ethanol, we put in 1 BTU of fossil fuel and some hardened sunlight in the form of corn, and get out 1.2 BTUs of ethanol. In the case of gasoline, we put in 1 BTU of fossil fuel and get 0.8 BTUs of gasoline. That seems to be a fair, apples to apples comparison.

Maybe this will make things a little more clear. In the case of the efficiency of gasoline (0.8) you are using 1 BTU of unprocessed fossil fuel (crude oil) from the ground to produce 0.8 BTU of gasoline. For the EROEI of ethanol (1.2) you are using 1 BTU of processed fossil fuels (gasoline, diesel, and natural gas) to produce 1.2 BTU of ethanol.  

To determine the efficiency of ethanol so you can compare the fossil fuels destroyed after you have burned both the gasoline and the ethanol in your car you need to include the efficincy of producing the inputs for ethanol. If the inputs were all gasoline you would divide the 1 BTU by 0.8 to get a total of 1.25 BTU of crude oil. The resulting efficiency is 0.96 which you can compare to the 0.8 of gasoline.

This doesn't make ethanol a better energy source than gasoline, it just means its getting slighlty more energy out of the fossil fuels allowing them to last a little longer or reducing the CO2 produced per mile driven.

I responded to this in EP's Khosla thread.
You all seem to be picking at this position paper, but I have yet to see much in the way of alternative proposals. None of our current energy use patterns are not without problems, inefficiencies, etc. What makes any of you think that someone is going to find the perfect solution?
I find his logic hard to argue. If his numbers are correct, and he putting his money where his mouth is, what is the real objection?
Just Asking
As long as it is just HIS money then it is just a lost opportunity.  If HIS money is used to lobby those with powers of taxation to support this endeavor (regardless of his motivation) with public money that could have been used for real solutions (like rebuilding our rail network, manufacturing base, cities, towns and other public infrastructure) then it is a tragedy.  
What's better, to keep looking, or to put everybody on a "trajectory" that may or may not be in the right direction?

(no objection to him betting his, or other investors' money, it's the lobbying to get the US to adopte ethanol as "the" solution, based on the cellulosic promise, that gets me.)

"What makes any of you think that someone is going to find the perfect solution?"

You know, justasking, it might just be that there is no "perfect solution" (if, by that, you mean a continuation of our growth centred societies). Have you ever thought of that?

I don't hear people here demanding THE Perfect solution, just any Good ones.  The picking apart is to see whether this is good or not.

VK said (roughly) 'Let's not make the Perfect the enemy of the good'.. but I don't see any problem with making the 'not very good at all' the enemy of the good. (Meaning the plan, not the Man, of course, and I appreciate the willingness of Mr. Khosla to put this very involved article before us today.)

If the final economies give us a fuel with much less than 2:1 EROEI, then we must see the seriousness in this shortfall and find something better.  To me, a 2:1 EROEI means you make $400 a week, but your commute costs you $200.  Or how about an ATM that charges you 50% of the withdrawal amount?  You've still got money in your pocket, but is it worth the cost?

In answer to your initial question, the point many here attest to is that there may not BE a truly viable Alternative to our Liquid Transp fuels, as we use them today.  The alternatives, accept it or not, point to a massive shift in the energy we consume, be it more effective transportation, (Carpools/Buses) different means of moving around (Bike, Walk, Electric Trolley/Rail), reducing our liquids and Gases from other demands (Solar Home Heating, Electric Freight) -

"If his numbers are correct"..>> $64,000 question..

Bob Fiske

Just Asking:

did the four posts above answer your question?

Cut and pasted from Robert's blog:

--

Well he's certainly very verbose.

He explicitly separates transportation from stationary applications, and I agree that biomass cannot be justified for stationary uses. Of course if one is most interested in climate change rather than peak oil then the lowest hanging fruit is our coal use, not oil use. The Wang publications claim a 1.3:1 ethanol energy return on fossil fuel input ratio. That implies roughly that ethanol still produces 75 % of the greenhouse gases as oil.

I don't like his analogy to internet protocols. Software is a conceptual beast and not really constrained by any physics. If he had made an argument about photonics progressing along a certain pathway (or 'trajectory') that would have been a more solid argument. It is clear that he still does not understand the scale issues. Khosla states, "we must move [ethanol] from a blend of only fifteen billion gallons a year US market to a primary fuel 200 billion gallons a year market..." Physically possible?

He still not appear to understand the difference between the energy return ratio and 1st or 2nd law thermodynamic efficiency. Again, the physics are misunderstood. He's willing to use software such as GREET but not dig into the actual model that it uses. Take for example this claim: "Later they will replace the rest of the natural gas by utilizing the manure from local cattle feedlots (they are mostly building plants near cattle feedlots)." Is the scale of cow crap really large enough to provide all those Joules needed to provide ethanol? In addition, Wang is not a good researcher to be quoting -- NREL white papers are generally not peer reviewed.

On the issue of cellulosic ethanol I find the claims fairly specious. I don't believe that marginal cropland that isn't economical to farm now will produce massive quantities of cellulose for us in the future. In the end he counters one of his earlier claims. Regarding Peak Oil, Khosla says that "Also stop reading if ... want to ... change the consumption pattern (4% of world population consuming 25% of its resources- I hate it too but don't count on it changing) overnight, dramatically change behavior like getting Americans to drive less(lots of idealized solutions I can think of but it won't happen except through legislation like higher CAFÉ or higher gasoline prices, and most such legislation is politically infeasible)." But then he goes on to conclude that our meat diet will have to change if we want to drive ethanol powered cars. It's a strange argument.

Without a material breakthrough in storage technologies, wind and solar combined will be no greater than 20% of our electric power needs because of base load issues.

A study of the New Zealand grid stated that they could accept up to 35% wind energy without further study or grid modification.  The only proviso was that the WTs need to be distributed and not concentrated in a couple of locations.

As Wind Turbines approached 35%, they recommended more study based upon experience.  Link provided when I get home (typing at PDX ATM).

The intergration of wind with hydro & pumped storage was a "hot topic" at the just concluded Hyropower conference here in Portland.

No breakthrough is required in storage technology; pumped storage (hydro for days & weeks; air for seasonal shifting) can do the job.  In theory (real world, see plans for Big Island of Hawaii) one could have a 115% wind turbine grid balanced by pumped storage.  (Some turbines would need to be spinning in air for reactive power at times).

IMHO, the US could get ~60% of our electrical power from wind with large investments in pumped storage (many sites available; Raccoon Mountain ridge could accept 8 GW, Bath can be enlarged to 3 GW + nearby sites, etc.) and a HV DC grid accross the continent.

HV DC could provide links from Texas to the Ozarks (some limited potential in state) and South Florida to NW Georgia in two difficult cases.

BTW, I had a detailed converation with Alberta utility exec  about the possibilities of pumped air storage for high % wind and seasonal shifting from winter to summer.  (Air pumped storage has cycle efficiency of only 60% due to adiabatic cooling.  However, injecting very cold air in winter and releasing it on a hot summer day would improve efficiency.  Bath Hydro Pumped Storage has a 80+% cycle efficiency).  

Alan, I like your thinking :) BTW, have you checked out flow batteries for storage? Apparently as large as 8MW being used in Japan for peak shaving...
Anyone ever hear of a SMES?  It's basically a 95% efficient energy storage system used to balance transmission line voltages.  It's used on a limited basis in some places.  The beauty about it is it can dump large loads over the grid very quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_magnetic_energy_storage

Between that and pumping (water, air, whatever), I see absolutely no excuse for solar / wind providing less than 35-40% of our energy needs.  

Regarding SMES, quoting the wikipedia reference: "To achieve commercially useful levels of storage, around 1 GW·h (4 TJ), a SMES installation would need a loop of around 100 miles (160 km)." This huge loop would have to be cooled to ultra-low crogenic temperatures - a very significant energy expense. Then there is the cost of the superconducting materials, which are not cheap. This doesn't sound very practical to me.
The main point was that everyone says wind and solar is not possible.  It is from an electrical generation standpoint IF you can convince the powers that be to heavily invest in that direction.

SMES also have the advantage of less powerloss/hr (including refrigeration) than most other methods of energy storage.  SMES can also be placed in locations that other "peak shaving" devices such as pumping may not be able to be placed.  Not an issue in the current grid system, but with less of the power being provided in fossil fired generation plants in the future(understand, the grid has been designed around the current plants to an extent) this is something that needs to be considered as currently our transmission lines are maxed out.

Additionally, their energy density may be better than batteries (have not had to look into that yet).  I do know they are being looked into as a possible portion of a true diurnal system.

I don't know if they are the best method, but they are being looked at in the untility market, and are meant to be charged fast and discharged fast (within minutes or hours depending on the design)... unlike batteries they don't have "known" limited numbers of cycles before they are junk, they don't have the concern of charge / discharge rates associated with battery banks, and unlike water pumping stations they are slightly more efficient than 70-85% (depending on where you get your sources).

Not trying to get into a pissing match, just trying to perhaps provide that "nugget of info" in the event it becomes useful to someone reading this.

I agree that perhaps wikipedia made me look stupid, but try these sources and maybe I'll look a bit less dumb:

 "However, some researchers believe SMES can potentially store up to 2000 MW. Theoretically, a coil of around 150-500 m radius would be able to support a load of 5000 MWh, at 1000 MW; depending on the peak field and ratio of the coil's height and diameter."
http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~mpj01/ise2grp/energystorage_report/node8.html#SECTION00830000000000000000

"Also, Japan's river system, highly dense settlement, and expensive real estate do not favor construction of additional pumped-storage facilities. The Japanese have thus been exploring alternative storage technologies, including SMES and flywheels. As discussed earlier, SMES research in Japan has been underway since the early 1970s, with many prototypes built and tested under actual "utility" conditions."

"The design approach for the 100 kWh/20 MW system, shown in Fig. 2.5, is a toroidal magnet with an outside diameter for the cryostat of ~12 m (Kamiyama 1994)."

http://www.wtec.org/loyola/scpa/02_06.htm

A study of the New Zealand grid stated that they could accept up to 35% wind energy without further study or grid modification. The only proviso was that the WTs need to be distributed and not concentrated in a couple of locations.

Different places will have different capacities. Similar studies suggest that the UK, with more consistent/reliable coastal winds, could tolerate a significantly greater fraction than France or Germany. It is interesting to note that ERCOT — the reliability authority for Texas — recently reduced the rating for wind power for purposes of calculating system capacity for scheduling maintenance downtime from 10% of nameplate to 2.9%.

I believe these calculations have the basic form of providing an estimate of how much power can be expected on any particular day with probability greater than X, where X is 0.9, or higher. Clearly, there are times when Texas runs fairly close to the edge in terms of generating capacity; they had rolling blackouts earlier this year because of heavy demands while "too much" capacity was offline for maintenance. Such scheduling is probably a hefty constrained optimization problem, incorporating not just generating capacity but transmission limitations as well.

Wind has lots of good things going for it. Being able to guarantee, with high probability, that this particular 200 MW wind farm will be able to generate a sizeable fraction of that nameplate value on any given day is not one of them.

Mr Khosla's vision is well researched.

Four keys will drive where we go the next few decades...

1.)  Cost.  Which energy sources can best meet our needs.

2.)  Infrastructure.  How easily can they be implented.

3.)  Technology.  Progress in dozens of competing options.

4.)  Validation/Invalidation of Key Assumptions.

The first three he presented his case toward viability.

The success will be how accurate his key assumptions are.

I commend him for submitting his views.  Vigorous monitoring
of the key assumptions are the success of any program or
project.  The data of his projects and involvement in associated
projects regarding his key assumptions will determine his success.  
An encouraging sign is his seeking other views which benefits all.  

I do believe we are at the cusp of an Energy Revolution.
My experiences indicate we probably don't yet fully grasp the
magnitute and implications for all of us.

Good Luck

     

Vinod, you come across as a complete blowhard.  Once you take out your fat wallet to make room for Wall Street in your jeans, feel free to take a blindfold and a cigarette from the box by the door and make yourself comfortable in line behind the other deciders and imaginators.
wow, that is so helpful and insightful!  thanks for your contribution!
shame on you,
sarcasm is angers ugly cousin.

Actually I found it amusing and the blind fold thing
had me thinking firing squad initially, until i
thunk it out loud and see the reference to being blind.
Ever heard of the blind leading the blind?

What kind of profeesor do you profess to be?
Perhaps censorship is to your liking, layed any Golden eggs lately? Where's your cense of femor?
 regardless I would buy you a drink (alcohol) after your stand up routine.
;- )
hugh unemployment = hugh alcohol consumption = no need for extended travel = demand/supply/demand/supply ...
.Maybe this community could get Burt Reynolds  to post and everyone would behave.
Seriously,
Skipper  -  S.S Minnow ---- down but, not out !

He did not censor - he gave his opinion, using sarcasm even.  
hugh unemployment = hugh alcohol consumption

Hugh = some dude's name
Huge = large size

Triff ..

I would wager a Cuban cigar that "Spewey" is not, in fact, contributing to any solution at all, let alone a realistic one.
Oh dear. After getting by all of the reasons, that he gave, why I should stop reading, I actually did stop reading when he wrote "The personal automobile is here to stay". This guy clearly has no vision, if his view is that personal transport of the future is the automobile.
Thank you, Mr. Khosla.  I deeply appreciate the hard work you are doing.  I live in state that has a plentiful supply of ethanol, and have been using it for over two years now--exclusively in my vehicle.  Like you I see it as a security concern, and a matter of indepenence.  Unlike many whom have posted so far, I am not at all interested in a social engineering solution to our current energy problems.   If developing a sustainable fuel is a pie in the sky idea, then trying to tell 300 million Americans that they have to radically remake their life, how they work, and where they live, is from the moon.  Its a hollow argument, it has no teeth.  If I wanted to live in Europe under autocracy I would move there.

I also don't believe in blue sky dreams and 1000 year solutions.  To me, cellulose ethanol is an intermediate step towards a more sustainable future.  One that regains some American independence and cuts off the supply of huge amounts of money to petty theocracies.  It mitigates the need to have oil men in charge of our country, and gives us time to shape our future.  It gives us the legs we need to approach a post peak oil reality that is coming whether we do something about it or not.

I think if you believe in the reality of peak oil at all, and what it will undoubtedly do to America and the world if all we manage to do is argue about building more trains and bike paths, then I think you should get behind Mr. Khosla and his efforts.  Lend him the helpful critiques and support he needs to make this a national debate.