DrumBeat: February 16, 2007

Oil crisis constant concern

"The oil crisis will be here in three years. I don't know many people who think we have ten years, anymore," said Seppo Korpela, an Ohio State professor of mechanical engineering who has been trying for five years to raise public awareness about peak oil theory.

Korpela said the theory holds that when the world's production of oil peaks, it will then decline, causing serious economic and social disruption unless viable substitutes for oil are found.

Hubbert's Peak Theory Points to Dwindling Oil Supply

HUBBERT'S PEAK IS not a mountain, but it's just as good at hiding whatever's on the other side. One anonymous day in the not-too-distant future it will be the most crowded place on Earth. And coming down won't be nearly as much fun as going up.


Peak Oil Passnotes: Born to Be Mild Weather

The week has passed relatively uneventfully apart from some tightening fundamentals. As yet no one has dropped any explosives on Iran, peace is just about being maintained in Lebanon and although Al-Qaida have said they intend to target oil installations they appear to be about as effective an armed group as the U.S. Army. Not very.


U.S. warns of Nigeria militant plots

The United States warned Friday that Nigerian militants may be planning to expand their activities beyond the country's restive oil-producing southern regions.

Light, sweet crude prices rose more than $1, to settle above $59 a barrel, in part because of worries over the warning.


Ex-oil minister despairing of Iraq oil future

Former Iraq oil minister Issam Al Chalabi paints a bleak picture for the future of Iraq's oil industry, panning the result of the US-led war, its insistence on passing an oil law, and the situation aboveground hampering development of the resources below it.

..."They cannot increase; the only way is for production to go down," said Mohamed Zine, Middle East regional manager for energy analyst firm IHS. "There has been no improvement, nothing," said Zine, whose views on the situation in Iraq are often less dramatic than Chalabi's. "It is getting worse."


To Fuel Russia's Growth, Gazprom Turns to Coal

On Tuesday February 13, University of Houston Professor Michael J. Economides released a report claiming that Russia faces a huge shortfall between natural gas supply and demand in the next three years.


Chubais Spots Gas Shortage in Russia

Russia will face the gas shortage of 4 billion cu meters in 2007, RAO UES CEO Anatoly Chubais announced with reference to the gas balance of the country passed by the government. The shortage will widen to 8 billion cu meters in 2008 and reach 40 billion cu meters in a few years, Chubais predicted as quoted by Interfax.


Bodman: All Nations Should Open Energy Markets

U.S. Energy Secretary Samuel Bodman on Wednesday called for all nations to embrace a "new paradigm of energy security" that must include open markets for energy trading and investment.

"History has shown that an unfettered market is the most effective and efficient way to determine price and allocate resources based on supply and demand," he said in a speech at the Cambridge Energy Research Associates' annual conference in Houston.


Big Oil frets over rising costs, tough access

Surging oil prices have brought energy companies record profits in recent years. But the boom has also pushed up the cost of doing business and emboldened oil-producing nations to restrict access to their reserves.


Cobalt: Aggressive Governments Unexpected Obstacle

Joseph Bryant, chief executive of Cobalt International Energy LP, doesn't buy the below ground version of peak oil - a theory that global crude production has entered a period of unstoppable decline.

But as the head of a two-year-old exploration company looking to acquire its first leases outside the U.S., he knows all about how politics above the surface can get in the way.


Weekly Offshore Rig Review: Improving Productivity

Evaluation of rig productivity like this signifies clearly the engineering advancement generations of engineers, drillers, operators and contractors have achieved . In simpler terms, it appears that an average rig today can do what two rigs could do in 1949.


India: Will fuel price cut stop inflation?

Prices are rising sharply in India and in a desperate attempt to control inflation, the Government has cut fuel prices.


Turkey Warns Cyprus to Cancel Exploration Tender

"We expect Greek Cyprus to end its initiatives to launch international tenders which violate the joint rights of the island's two communities and amount to a fait-accompli," Turkish foreign ministry spokesman Levent Bilman said in a written statement.


Nuclear debate needs fresh source of energy

Tony Blair has had nearly 10 years to face up to the growing threat from climate change and the inevitable consequences for how we power and light our homes, work and public spaces in future. Our existing stock of nuclear stations, still generating a fifth of all the UK's electricity needs, is well into middle age, heading for retirement.


British Millers Worried by Impact of Biofuel Subsidy

British millers are worried that government subsidies to promote biofuel intensifies competition between using grain for food or fuel and damages their industry.


Kiwi lambs poised to be processed into bio-diesel blend

United Kingdom bio-diesel producer Argent Energy is investigating, with oil companies Shell and Chevron, a plant to process 75,000 tonnes of the lamb chop trimmings to produce 85 million litres of bio-diesel a year.


Internet claims role in fighting global warming

Companies are starting to capitalise on reducing travel costs as well as CO2 emissions by using Information and Communication Technologies (ICT).


Peak Oil Theory Could Distort Energy Policy and Debate

The “peak oil” debate continues to rage without any obvious progress. In essence, the peak oil lobby suggests, as it has been doing unsuccessfully for many years, that global production will soon reach a peak and then decline rapidly thereafter with dire global consequences. The “market view” of Cambridge Energy Research Assocs. (CERA), based on 2 decades of research, is also not a view of unlimited resources, but concludes that a plateau rather than a peak will occur — although not tomorrow — and that supply will not “run dry” soon thereafter. We hold that above-ground factors will play the major role in dictating the end of the age of oil.


Water found under Antarctic ice to raise sea level forecasts

Scientists have detected a network of lakes and rivers of rapidly moving water under the thick ice sheet of West Antarctica, a discovery that will force a revision of predictions of global sea levels as the sheet melts due to climate change.


OPEC Cuts Non-Member Supply Forecast on Mexico, U.S.

OPEC, the producer of 40 percent of the world's oil, cut its forecast for 2007 supply from non- members mainly because of delays at North American projects and left its world demand estimate "broadly unchanged."


Chinese oil companies to set up reserves

China may ask state-owned energy companies to establish oil reserves as a supplement to a national reserve being set up as the Asian giant struggles to fuel future growth, state media said on Thursday.


Study Questions Prospects for Much Lower Emissions

As Democratic leaders in Congress prepare to put climate change legislation on the agenda, some in the utility industry are arguing that it will take decades of investments and innovation to get substantial reductions in their emissions of greenhouse gases.


Another spin on the server energy use story: US servers now use more electricity than color TVs

Between 2000 and 2005, server electricity use grew at a rate of 14 percent each year, meaning that it more than doubled in five years. The 2005 estimate shows that servers and associated equipment burned through 5 million kW of power, which cost US businesses roughly $2.7 billion.

...If current trends continue, server electricity usage will jump 40 percent by 2010, driven in part by the rise of cheap blade servers, which increase overall power use faster than larger ones.


Dodge joins stampede into China market

Big name automakers have set their sights on China and other fast-growing developing markets to help offset legacy costs and provide sales growth missing in the U.S. and other Western markets.


Hybrids lose their luster

Sales of big vehicles have recovered - General Motors' pickup and SUV sales rose by almost 33% one month last fall - and the huge demand for high-mileage cars has slackened. What had been an interesting national conversation about weaning ourselves from oil has been muted.

Until the next time prices spike.


Gore announces climate-change concerts

Al Gore announced on Thursday a series of worldwide concerts to focus on the threat of climate change, with a powerhouse lineup from the Red Hot Chili Peppers to Snoop Dogg to Bon Jovi.

The 24-hour event on July 7 is part of a kickoff campaign, Save Our Selves — The Campaign for a Climate in Crisis, that promoters hope will trigger a broad movement to address what the former vice president calls a "planetary emergency."


Rising sea levels present China with 'unimaginable challenges'

A report released recently by the State Oceanic Administration has warned of a rapid rise in sea levels that threatens China's densely populated east coast, the China Daily reported.

"The speed is astonishing," said Lu Xuedu, the deputy director of the environmental division of the Ministry of Science and Technology.


Vanishing glaciers offer clear evidence of climate change

Climate change is likely to melt one of Peru's biggest glaciers within five years and is threatening ice packs on some of the world's most famous mountain ranges, scientists have said.

Climate change has accelerated the retreat of glaciers at rates not seen for thousands of years, glaciologist Lonnie Thompson told reporters at the American Association for the Advancement of Sciences' annual meeting.


Politicians sign new climate pact

Leading international politicians have reached a new agreement on tackling climate change, at a Washington summit.


Offshore Wind Farm Could Blow Away Energy Needs

Wind power could supply all the energy needs of much of the East Coast and then some, if a phalanx of wind turbines running from Massachusetts to North Carolina were installed offshore, a new study concludes.


Florida makes it easier to build nuclear plants

The Florida Public Service Commission adopted new rules this week to encourage the construction of nuclear power plants within the state.


Government forced to rethink nuclear power plans

The government's plans to build a new generation of nuclear power plants have been dealt an embarrassing blow by a court ruling in favour of environmental group Greenpeace.


Greencore condemned for rejecting ethanol move

Much of the criticism at the company was delivered by Allan Navratil, a beet grower from Cork, and a founding member of the Biofuels Initiative, which includes Colin Campbell, of the Association for the Study of Peak Oil (APSO) on its board.


Oil majors question Bush biofuel plan

Exxon, Chevron CEOs say technology to increase biofuel production remains well out of reach.


Michael T. Klare - Global Warming: It’s All About Energy

But global warming is not an “environmental” problem in the same sense as these others – it is an energy problem, first and foremost. Almost 90% of the world’s energy is supplied through the combustion of fossil fuels, and every time we burn these fuels to make energy we release carbon dioxide into the atmosphere; carbon dioxide, in turn, is the principal component of the “greenhouse gases” (GHGs) that are responsible for warming the planet. Energy use and climate change are two sides of the same coin.


Emissions from commercial planes prompt concerns about regulating greenhouse gases

As the debate over global warming heats up, airlines, regulators and environmentalists agree that emissions from commercial aircraft are a growing source of greenhouse gases and need to be brought under control.

Their problem: how to cut toxic emissions without cutting into the economics of the financially vulnerable airline industry.


State-owned companies are the future of the oil industry

The future of the oil industry lies in the hands of state-owned companies in the sector, and they tend to become increasingly global.


Saipem wins new contracts worth more than 1 billion euros

Saipem SpA said it has won three new contracts, two onshore in Saudi Arabia and Tunisia and one offshore in waters between Algeria and Spain, worth more than 1 bln eur.

The first contract, awarded by Saudi Arabian state-run energy group Saudi Aramco, is for the expansion of the Quarayyah Sea Water Plant facility, about 250 km southwest of Dhahran.


The Desperation of George W. Bush, Part II

How desperate are they? Desperate enough to lobby the IPCC and ask them to include in the summary for policymakers some nutty strategies for dealing with climate change, such as putting giant mirrors or a giant sunscreen into orbit, or pumping tiny droplets of sulfate, or reflective dust, into the atmosphere as “important insurance” against rising emissions.


The Heated Debate Over Citizenre

How an emerging company has created a storm of controversy in the world of solar energy.


Population growth plays a key role

Global warming is "unequivocal," according to the recently released report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. The most likely culprits are people - all of us. Yet there never has been much public discussion about the role of human population growth in global warming.

Doesn't it seem likely that there is no real intention to produce Iraq oil at this particular time?

Bottle it all up. Control the territory, by force if necessary. 14 "enduring bases" plus the Green Zone should do it.

Too much Iraqi oil supply at this time would have deleterious effect on price of oil -- too much already on the market.

The ice on this planet is melting like an ice sculpture at a Florida wedding. Be afraid.

Thanks for the climate stories, Leanan.

Hopefully many people will read them and start thinking for real. I saw you made a late comment on the Valentine Drumbeat about Tainter's and Diamond's assertions of problems being "too complex for everyone to understand".

When it comes to climate change, I think that should be anyone, not everyone. Nobody seems to understand where we're at.

People should start to realize that climate change is an issue that has been left alone for so long that it will run its course no matter what. In that light, it's exasperating to read headlines that suggest America is finally waking up and that sort of message.

Well, guys, it's too late, the sheets are on fire. You can compare it to a severely neglected case of diabetes: you may eventually live, but you won't be your old selves anymore, more likely a nation of blind amputees.

Emissions from decades ago cause the melting in Antarctica and the Andes from the articles above, as well as all over the planet, emissions that were but a fraction of what we spew out today. The earth in a few decades will have unrecognizably changed, we have disturbed a whole system full of fine-tuned balances way beyond recovery. It won't be like it was when you grew up for at least thousands of years, if it ever will.

What we see now is yet another deluded mass lulling themselves to sleep by purchasing hybrid cars and efficient lightbulbs and seeing Al Gore's misleading take on the subject (green business opportunities, my a$$, Al). These things don't matter anymore, you should have done that 40 years ago.

The situation has run so out of hand by now that an entirely different set of measures is called for. We have to move people away from the coastal areas of the world, for starters. We can see where the droughts will hit, from Africa to California, and the floods, from Bangla Desh to Western Europe and China. It's time to start making provisions for these disasters, or we'll be too late once again.

PS one more thing: from the China story comes this line:

"China could face "unimaginable challenges" if global warming continues and the oceans keep rising"

That is misleading. Global warming will continue for another 100 years even if all emissions stop right now. It's high time to face that truth.

If you read this "if global warming continues" line, know that there is no IF. It's done.

Another avenue of lulling the public to sleep: Technology can save us!

For example, from Eric Berger of the Houston Chroncicle:

Benford has a proposal that possesses the advantages of being both one of the simplest planet-cooling technologies so far suggested and being initially testable in a local context. He suggests suspension of tiny, harmless particles (sized at one-third of a micron) at about 80,000 feet up in the stratosphere. These particles could be composed of diatomaceous earth.

And the argument:

Why don't we just do something about it, instead? Yes, long-term, doing a lot of the strategies to reduce carbon dioxide emissions -- such as ending fossil fuel use and living sustainable lifestyles -- will be very good, environmentally, for the planet. And in my view, that's a very good thing both for nature, animals and humans. But those kinds of changes are going to happen slowly. And the effect on cooling the planet will take a long, long time.

Shorter term solutions will require more radical engineering. And they may not win any Greenpeace awards because temporarily solving the problem by putting small particles into the atmosphere will encourage many people to continue their business-as-usual energy practices. But these engineering solutions probably could address the problem a lot more quickly.

My personal view is that a number of skeptics see global warming both through a political lens, and as an effort by environmental organizations to force their views down the throats of everyone. If the skeptics are right, then you would expect environmental organizations to oppose practical solutions that don't improve the overall environmental condition of the planet.
http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2007/02/is_global_warmi.html#comm...

Reducing carbon emissions, evidently, is out of the question. So we have no choice except to radically modify the atmosphere.

Needless to say, the solution offered above is extremely energy- and resource-intensive and could not possibly continue forever. Humankind's prospects become dimmer with each passing day.

If humans will not stop polluting, Nature will stop humankind.

Perhaps it is already too late.

David Mathews
http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1

Yeah, it's just my luck, I guess, that the village idiot is the first to respond.

They don't even make you take your early morning pills anymore? I see your sort on the street every day, and I do give quarters and bucks, but I don't want you in my home or office, because that's not pleasant, you have no manners or regard for others if you stop taking your medicine. I could deal with the drooling, it's the shouting that gets to me.

You're in luck that there's no editors on this site, boy.

But for scores of other people that's a big drag.

You have cost this site a lot of readers and posters by now, but no-one here seems to care about them. You can go on till there's no-one left here who matters to any serious discussion..

Hello HeIsSoFly,

Yeah, it's just my luck, I guess, that the village idiot is the first to respond.

That's a pretty ironic statement coming from a person named "HeISSoFly".

They don't even make you take your early morning pills anymore? I see your sort on the street every day, and I do give quarters and bucks, but I don't want you in my home or office, because that's not pleasant, you have no manners or regard for others if you stop taking your medicine. I could deal with the drooling, it's the shouting that gets to me.

You need to describe your own life to me, "HeIsSoFly".

You have cost this site a lot of readers and posters by now, but no-one here seems to care about them. You can go on till there's no-one left here who matters to any serious discussion..

If I had that sort of impact upon this website I would have done the Peak Oil movement a big favor.

And what sort of serious discussions did you have in mind. I cannot envision any sort of serious conversation occurring between anyone and a person named "He Is So Fly".

David Mathews
http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1

HeIsSoFly:

I will grant that Mathews has a rather hopelessly grim view of the future, but I think this particular post was completely germane to the topic you brought up. You announced that warming is a fact and there is nothing we can do about it. Mathews confirmed what you said and then wrote about some of the possible responses to this problem. He then merely set forth the not very novel idea that nature bats last.

And then you assert that Mathews is an idiot and an insane, drooling homeless person. That seems like an overreaction on your part.

I would suggest that if people don't agree with Mathews that they refute his statements or arguments directly or they ignore him. He is an extreme doomer, but then, there are and have been other doomers on this site.

I like how certian viewpoints have been relegated to intellectual ghettos if they do not toe the happy, happy we-can-engineer-ourselves-out-of-anything cornucopians who dominate the site.

1939: Yes, he hates the NAZIs and accuses them of all sorts of atrocities, but he is a pessimist. I prefer to belief that the films of all those happy jews are true!

1956: Of course the Potemkin village is representative of Soviet society! Don't be so negative!

2000: Global warming? That just means we all get to be warm in the winter. No big deal. Besides, we got plenty of airconditioners. Don't be a party-pooper!

2007: Don't listen to them, they are "doomers." We got technology, dude!!

Yup, nothing like realism coated with a creamy, sweet coating of wishful thinking and techno-fantasy.

He is an extreme doomer, but then, there are and have been other doomers on this site

He is worse than a doomer. A doomer is convinced that the coming situation is going to be very bad, and nothing can stop it. Dave is eagerly awaiting the coming bad situation, and is cheering it on. I bet he leaves his car running all night to try and speed up the end of the world.

Anybody that is happy at the thought of the death of billions of people is seriously messed up.

He is a Genophobe.

Hello enviro attny,

He is worse than a doomer. A doomer is convinced that the coming situation is going to be very bad, and nothing can stop it. Dave is eagerly awaiting the coming bad situation, and is cheering it on. I bet he leaves his car running all night to try and speed up the end of the world.

Am I the one cheering on this situation?

Don't you imagine that the oil, auto & power corporations bear some responsibility for the consequences of their extremely profitable behavior?

I advocate humankind ceasing all of these activities which are destroying the Earth. If I wanted billions of humans to die, I would invest in the oil industry and trade oil futures. Profiting from the crimes and pollutions of the oil industry seems like a reprehensible, evil activity to me.

And, no, I do not leave my car running all night nor leave my lights on when not in the room nor use the air conditioner/heater except when absolutely necessary nor eat any more than enough to keep my body running.

I am not in favor of anyone dying, but I know that billions of humans are already fated to die because of the crimes against Nature committed by humankind.

Anybody that is happy at the thought of the death of billions of people is seriously messed up.

But what of those who seek to profit from the deaths of billions?

David Mathews
http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1

What astonishes me most about Matthews is his ability to type so fast. Kind of reminds me of when my daughters were toddlers. Very prolific at speaking many words per minute for hours on end but rarely saying anything profound.
Better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and prove it. One of my wife's favorite sayings and who am I to disagree.

Hello Thomas,

What astonishes me most about Matthews is his ability to type so fast. Kind of reminds me of when my daughters were toddlers. Very prolific at speaking many words per minute for hours on end but rarely saying anything profound.
Better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and prove it. One of my wife's favorite sayings and who am I to disagree.

I say whatever is on my mind. I don't care whether the readers consider the statements profound or not.

The Oil Drum is not a forum devoted to profound thoughts. Those seeking profundity should visit websites devoted to philosophy or religion.

The Oil Drum is an oil industry website which is especially addicted to mathematical models, graphs and charts describing oil production statistics both historical and speculative. There is nothing especially profound in all of these charts and graphs. That's why the arguments here always follow essentially the same form and ultimately reach the same conclusion.

I have followed discussions on The Oil Drum for over a year and can say for certain that nothing whatsoever profound was ever expressed in these discussions. Fortunately for me, I visit a diverse group of websites in order to investigate Homo sapiens from every available angle of thought, word, and action.

When I need a profound thought, I seek out the Scriptures:

"Behold, my eye has seen all this, my ear has heard and understood it. What you know, I also know; I am not inferior to you.
"But I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to argue with God.
"But you smear with lies; you are all worthless physicians.
"O that you would be completely silent, and that it would become your wisdom!
"
(Proverbs 13:1-5)

David Mathews
http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1

Your response confirms my point. You out worded me 5:1 and even unneccesarily repeated my comment while adding a Bible passage.
I have encountered many profound statements on the Drum such as very informative postings explaining the science and engineering aspects of our energy challenges. I found the Cubic Mile of Oil concept to be a profound image about the magnitude of oil use. Engineer-Poet's postings with all the mathematical backing he brings to his comments are very profound. The concept of Energy Return on Energy Invested is an extremely profound concept that must be taught to the body politic so good public policy can be realized. As for my comments, most of what I post are just the musings of a lunatic. At least that's what my psychiatrist says.

To pick a nit, that's not Proverbs it is Book of Job

I suggest simply not responding to him on this issue today. Even I don't want him to waste 'your' real estate space with his nut-job outlook. And don't worry dmathew1, we all know your cryptic response of 'I don't care what you say, na na, boo boo' is incoming.

Hello Hothgor,

Even I don't want him to waste 'your' real estate space with his nut-job outlook. And don't worry dmathew1, we all know your cryptic response of 'I don't care what you say, na na, boo boo' is incoming.

I really do care about you, Hothgor, I do.

David Mathews
http://www.geocities.com/dmathew1

I do not understand your problems with Dave. He is entitled to his opinion and in my view many times it is spot on.

Cherenkov and tstreet hit it on the nose. Dave's comments were appropriate to the post and he is entitled to his opinion.

I found his "particle" post to be interesting. I have no idea whether it is doable or not, but it is interesting. So why all the flack? Does that make me a nut because I found it interesting?

Anyone with a negative view of the future does seem to get relegated to the nut-pile--no matter that a negative outcome for humanity is certainly possible. Most of us like to think it will be otherwise, but there are no guarantees and we won't know until we get there. That's why politicians never tell the truth if it is bad news--they know it will ensure they won't get re-elected because people never want to hear the truth if it is bad news. Everything must be sugar-coated.

Personally, I think we will blow ourselves to smithereens in resource wars long before climate change or peak oil get us. It has been the human condition throughout the ages to "covet" thy neighbors resources. But along the way we will have other painful adjustments to the problems coming down the pike.

I don't care for the religious parts, but then I don't care for it when it comes from our president and self-righteous congress-critters either. So, I've learned to tune them out when they start down that path. If his posts bother you that much, don't read them and don't respond.

not that i agree with all of dmathew's points.
though to be frank, he has not once cussed out, called anyone else names, or otherwise derided people who reply to him. no matter how much they do it to him.. so please grow up and act like a adult, you might not like what he posts but that gives you no right to act like you have and so many others.
sure you can disagree and i hope have a nice rational discussion over it. though you do realize by posting a post like this you are the troll not him.

HeIsSoFly:

More importantly, who owns Anna Nicole's body? Or, as put forth by Inhofe during the global warming hearings, what we really need to worry about is the impact of fighting global warming on those small oil men who own stripper wells. It is alleged that taxes on carbon will ruin the small oilmen of this country. First, does this ring true? Second, if it is true, which is more important, the future of the planet or the marginal oil producers of this country.

But I guess I digress. According to your post, it is way too late to do anything about global warming. True, but now we are not talking about preventing warming, we are talking about just mitigating it. Somehow, I think that the concept of mitigation will fail to capture the imagination of the American and the rest of the world's people.

Perhaps people are still using the word "if", because the use of the more correct word "when" would plunge us into an even deeper level of despair and/or apathy.

Inhofe probably believe an old dog can't learn new tricks. This may be true about Inhofe but he should apologise for insulting the intelligence of these small oil men. The owners of these stripper wells could be hired to convert those depleted fields into geothermal power generators.

You must have THE computer model. We understand warming will continue regardless additions/reductions of CO2, but saying that reductions in consumption now are worthless, is indeed worthless.

saying that reductions in consumption now are worthless, is indeed worthless

I never said anything of the kind.

We can choose to prepare, as much as we can, or we can choose to just keep fooling ourselves for yet another decade, buy a hybrid and be surprised to find it, and ourselves, under water one day.

Buying a hybrid car in 2007 is a sign of denial.

Reductions in consumption can no longer reverse climate change, and that is what's still promoted; it will cause us to lose more precious years of preparation.

Well said. Die-off is on the way for sure.

You're probably right about the fact that much of the warming we are and will be seeing is the product of emmissions past; already in the pipeline. And it may be that even if we could magically stop all emmissions now, we'd still have hundreds of millions of climate refugees, etc.

But the reason - the point - in people being comparatively optimisitic by discussing climate change as if we can now do something about it, is because (1) if it is inevitable, where does that lead us? Not empowering. And if you want to be defeatist go ahead but (2), what we do now will affect the ultimate severity of climate upheaval 100 years out. It may not be a total lost cause 100 years down the road, though without mitigation and a sense of defeat you can be sure it will be then.

Does anyone have a good understanding of the underlying topography of Antartica? Stuart covered it somewhat here-->

http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/3/3/124317/2560

<---
Totonelia brings up the Bentley SubGlacial Trench is the deepest point on earth not under seawater at 8326 ft below sealevel. Is this trench filled with water?

I thought the two major ice shelves were floating on the ocean and that the interior ice sheet was fixed on a mountain range. Are these lakes contained within the subsurface mountain terrain?

Cheers!

Edit to add missing ? in last para.

There are subglacial lakes all over Antarctica. Wikipedia:

"Antarctica is home to more than 70 lakes that lie thousands of meters under the surface of the continental ice sheet. Lake Vostok, discovered beneath Russia's Vostok Station in 1996, is the largest of these subglacial lakes.

It is believed that the lake has been sealed off for 35 million years. There is some evidence that Vostok's waters may contain microbial life. The sealed, frozen surface of the lake shares similarities with Jupiter's moon Europa"

The basic mistake is to think of the ice as a soild frozen compact "cube". There are lakes, rivers and streams, and water flowing and trickling all over and through. That suggests very strongly that the melting could be much faster than predicted in computer models so far, decades instead of centuries. Water can move from top to bottom in seconds, something that was thought impossible until very recently.

What's important for the ice masses that float on the sea, the ones fed by inland glaciers, is that the warming waters also induce melting from the bottom up. So you got melting going on, and increasingly so, at the top, side, bottom and everywhere inside.

What's important for the ice masses that float on the sea, the ones fed by inland glaciers, is that the warming waters also induce melting from the bottom up.

He: Not too worried about those as they displace their own weight in water and their melting will not impact sealevel.

Did find this image of sub-glacial terrain features and now have a better understanding of relationships between lakes and ice:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AntarcticaRockSurface.jpg

Cheers!

Not too worried about those as they displace their own weight in water and their melting will not impact sealevel.

Thing is, their melting incresases both speed and melting of the land based ice moving towards the sea. They function as a kind of bolt that keeps the inland ice in place. Once they're gone, it's like opening a closet stacked to the hilt with ping-pong balls.

I havn't seen this picture before! The continent is in fact a lot smaller than the ice on it... No a lot of chance to compense there the ground lost elsewhere due to ice melting...

I had the same reaction to the image. My original understanding was that there were two floating ice shelves but that the main body of Antarctica was a mass of rock raised above sea level with 3 km of ice frosted on top. The lakes would be distributed through the rock mountain range at various elevations much like Lake Louise, Moraine Lake and others found in the Western Cordillera

If I interpret the image correctly then the "lakes" are not contained in bowls at some altitude in mountains but are in fact at sea level and open on to the sea at the periphery. This would imply that much of the main body of the ice is subject to being undermined by warmer water in the manner described by He above.

Lake Vostok is known to be a freshwater lake. This is located roughly above the text "aurora subglacial basin" and appears to be isolated from the other subglacial lakes.

The melting point of ice is related to the pressure it is under. A layer of ice miles thick lowers the melting point some 20C. The weight of the ice also causes the land to sink putting some of these lakes well below sea level.