Uranium Depletion and Nuclear Power: Are We at Peak Uranium?
Posted by Prof. Goose on March 21, 2007 - 12:00pm
Topic: Alternative energy
Tags: depletion, nuclear energy, uranium [list all tags]
This is a guest post by Miquel Torres.
A recent post by Martin Sevior has invigorated the nuclear energy debate causing over 240 comments with the most diverse opinions. I would like to further pursue this debate, as the question of whether nuclear power can provide a big part of the worlds energy needs is extremely important in the Peak Oil debate, because it is the only alternative energy source beside coal providing the type of electricity production necessary for the current electric grid model: big, base-load capable power plants. If that role is fulfilled, the current electricity production system can continue beyond Peak Oil, and even expand to provide the energy necessary for electrified transport. If it falls short, a new energy model is needed.
To anyone seeking the truth about the issues surrounding nuclear energy, the situation is extremely frustrating. There are two camps stating opposing claims. On the one hand, the environmentalists dislike everything nuclear, and on the other hand the nuclear industry paints an overly rosy picture where all problems are solvable, or non-issues at all. Whom should we believe?
Because Martin Sevior has portrayed the view of the nuclear industry, this post will explain what the other camp has to say. While I could address his post point by point, it would result in a very large article that nobody would read. So I have opted to first answer just one point, Uranium production, which I chose both because it is most similar to the PO depletion theme, readers should be familiar with some of its challenges, and because a new study sheds new light on it.
The biggest issue I have with nuclear energy proponents, including some members of TOD community, is that they just repeat what the nuclear industry sales men say. A good example is the post by Martin Sevior. It repeats their arguments without a shadow of doubt nor criticism. The same highly educated, Peak Oil literate individuals who know about OPEC resource mis-reporting, and can tell the difference between KSA reserves and Canada's, the difference between light crude oil and tar sands and know who Yergin and CERA are, believe all the arguments of the nuclear industry word by word. Why that is so, I do not know.
TODers should know that even though Canada now has greater stated reserves than KSA, tar sands will never reach OPEC production volumes. Reserves, and R/P ratio is not the same as a production profile, which produces a peak well before complete exhaustion. Uranium, like any other resource, can't be mined at any desired rate, nor every last drop or ounce of the resource can be mined. No matter the technology, at some point it is just not worth it to mine lower grade ores. While energy balance analysis are complicated and a discussion about it would only bring controversy, another way of putting it is more easily grasped. For any mined ore, the lower the grade, the higher the material throughput you need to process. There is always a limit. And despite what the nuclear industry might tell you, for Uranium too. The materials throughput (not unrelated to the energy needed) is inversely proportional to the ore grade for any mined material: To extract 1 kg of uranium out of 1% ore containing material needs the processing of 100 kg. Extracting the same amount from 0.01% ore needs the processing of 10,000 kg. You can easily see that even if, for the sake of the argument we assume that the EROEI of nuclear energy for all ore grades is positive, there are physical limits to the production throughput Uranium production can ever reach. So what should be done is not just to list possible Uranium reserves, but also to analyze the maximum throughput attainable by the mining industry. That is: The Uranium production profile for the world.
The recently formed Energy Working Group has recently published a paper titled URANIUM RESOURCES AND NUCLEAR ENERGY. I will now explain their work. All figures and quotations are taken from this paper.
About the Energy Watch Group
This is the first of a series of papers by the Energy Watch Group which are addressed to investigate future energy supply and demand patterns. The Energy Watch Group consists of independent scientists and experts who investigate sustainable concepts for global energy supply. The group is initiated by the German member of parliament Hans-Josef Fell.
SUMMARY
Any forecast of the development of nuclear power in the next 25 years has to concentrate on two aspects, the supply of uranium and the addition of new reactor capacity. At least within this time horizon, neither nuclear breeding reactors nor thorium reactors will play a significant role because of the long lead times for their development and market penetration. This assessment results in the conclusion that in the short term, until about 2015, the long lead times of new and the decommissioning of ageing reactors perform the barrier for fast extension, and after about 2020 severe uranium supply shortages become likely which, again will limit the extension of nuclear energy.
I won't discuss the first point here (you may read the whole study, if you so wish) and I will concentrate on the Uranium supply.
Uranium Supply
This study uses the same data as the post by Martin Sevior. What he labels "Additional recovarable Uranium" is in reality "undiscovered resources prognosticated" and "undiscovered resources speculative". They are very unreliable data, considered by the study too speculative and with a very low probability of ever being brought into production. While some quantity in that category will be eventually mined, it wouldn't matter much in the time-frame considered.

Figure 1: Reasonably assured (RAR), inferred (IR) and already produced uranium resources
About 2.3 million tons of uranium have already been produced. Reasonably assured resources below 40 $/kgU are in the range of the already produced uranium. At present reactor uranium demand of about 67 kt/year these reserves would last for about 30 years, and would increase to 50 years if the classes up to 130 $/kgU were included. Inferred resources up to 130 $/kg would extend the static R/P ratio up to about 70 years. [...] However, the production profiles and reported reserves of individual countries show major downward reserve revisions in USA and France after their production maximum was passed. These downward revisions raise some doubts regarding the data quality of reasonably assured resources.
It will surely be interesting for TODers to have a look at the depletion curve for uranium in France. It clearly shows that uranium does deplete in a manner not entirely dissimilar to oil.

Figure A-3: Uranium production in France
According to the latest NEA statistics the "inferred resources between 80 and 130 $/kgU" still amount to about 11 kt. Now, the interesting thing is that "reasonably assured" and "estimated" resources estimates were increasing as long production was increasing, but as peak was reached, resource estimates were significantly downgraded.
While the USA is not nearly completely depleted like France is, the analysis of historical resource reports reveals similar patterns like the ones shown for France before. Shortly after reaching the production peak, in 1983 the "reasonably assured and inferred resources" where downgraded by 85%, a decline of almost 1,000 kt. The implication is that the reserve reporting practices are not "transparent" and "understated" as the nuclear industry will tell you.
This happened at a time when exploration expenditures reached their highest level. Though the reasons for the production decline in the USA could be manifold, this strong correlation between declining production and downgraded resources is at least interesting. Therefore it is possible that production was declining because of a lack of resources. Apart from this observation, a decline of "reasonably assured resources" is hard to understand, this is to say that in fact the formerly stated resources were not "reasonably assured" after all. A known discovered resource was converted into an unknown undiscovered resource: this does imply that the reporting practice of known resources is highly questionable and unreliable. A decline of 1,000 kt is a relevant quantity which reduces the static R/P-ratio (at 50 kt production) by 20 years.
Back to the big picture. At present, of the current uranium demand of 67 kt/yr only 42 kt/yr are supplied by new production, the rest of about 25 kt/yr is drawn from stockpiles which were accumulated before 1980.
If the present reactor capacity remains constant, the annual demand amounts to 67 kt/yr. If the annual production amounts to 45 kt and if 22 kt are taken from stocks, then stocks will be exhausted by 2015 (possible changes due to uranium enrichment and MOX fabrication are marginal). The continuing consumption of 67 kt/yr exceeds the reserves below 40 $/kgU by between 2030 and 2035. The inclusion of reasonably assured resources below 130 $/kgU would exhaust these resources by around 2050. Even the inclusion of the inferred resources below 130 $/kgU would lead to exhaustion of resources by around 2070.
But as any Peak Oiler knows, ultimate reserve exhaustion is not the only important thing. Throughput is as important. Uranium production lends itself to a bottom-up approach to production forecasts probably better than oil.

Figure 6: History and forecast of uranium production based on reported resources. The smallest area covers 1,900 kt uranium which have the status of proved reserves while the data uncertainty increases towards the largest area based on 4,700 kt uranium which represents possible reserves.
So it looks like Peak Uranium for this reserve estimates arises before 2040 at the latest, even though reserves will still be available beyond 2100.
In Annex 9 we find a Country by Country Assessment of Future Production Profiles Based on Resource Restriction (According to NEA 2006). Essentially the same as before but with individual countries represented.

Figure A-9: Future production profile If all "Reasonably Assured Resources" and "Inferred Resources < 130 $/kg U" are producible, this roughly corresponds to "Possible Reserves".
In order to ensure the continuous operation of existing power plants, uranium production capacities must be increased considerably over the next few years well before the stocks areexhausted. Rising prices and vanishing stocks have led to a new wave of mine developments. Actually, various projects are in the planning and construction stage which could satisfy the projected demand if completed in time. Annex 7 lists the mines which are planned to be in operation by the indicated years according to the Nuclear Energy Agency (NEA 2006). In total, about 20 kt/yr of additional production capacity are expected by 2010. This would increase the present capacity from about 50 kt/yr to 70 kt/yr, enough to meet the current demand once the stocks are exhausted. However, it is very likely that new mining projects experience cost overruns and time delays which raises doubts whether the production capacities can be extended in time. These problems can be observed e.g. at the development of the Cigar Lake project which is supposed to produce about 8 kt/yr U3O8 (equivalent to 6.8 ktU) starting in 2007. In october a severe water inflow occured wholly flooding the almost finished mine. At present it is very unclear whether the project can be developed further (more details are given in Annex 8). The black line represents the uranium demand of nuclear reactors which in 2005 amounted to 67 kt. The forecast shows the uranium demand until 2030 based on the forecast of the International Energy Agency in 2006 in its reference case (WEO 2006). Taking account of the uncertainty of the resource data it can be concluded that by between 2015-2030 an uranium supply gap will arise when stocks are exhausted and production cannot be increased as will be necessary to meet the rising demand. Later on production will decline again after a few years of adequate supply due to shrinking resources. Therefore it is very unlikely that beyond 2040 even the present nuclear capacity can still be supplied adequately. If not all of the reasonably assured and inferred resources can be converted into produced volumes, or if stocks turn out to be smaller than the estimated 210 kt U, then this gap will occur even earlier.
Now if you take into account that nuclear energy produces 16% of world electricity, and less than 5% primary energy supply, it seems impossible to me for nuclear energy with current technology to ever satisfy a big part of the world's energy demand.
This study may have flaws, but so far it is more convincing to me than the position of the nuclear industry, which regards Uranium as mineable without limits. If you believe some, we could mine it form the earth's crust, from sea water, ... or use breeders. And if all fails we have thorium. That is not serious. Being able to do it, even to technologically demonstrate it is not the same as doing it. We can extract gold from sea water too. While all those possibilities may be workable in the future, they could just as well not be viable. You cannot bet your energy future, the biggest investment society has to make, on such assertions. You may as well choose fusion.
There is a real posibility that Uranium supplies will not be sufficient for an expansion nuclear energy capacity and I am concerned that the reserve reporting practices could be too optimistic. Breeders, Thorium and such, whether workable or not are another matter not discussed here. I'll be glad if the members of the TOD community that evangelize nuclear fission step up to the challenge and criticize or outright debunk this study. That way, between all the highly educated people in the community we may even reach a conclusion on the Uranium resource question.
On a closing note, Raise The Hammer has posted an interview with Richard Heinberg, known for The Oil Depletion Protocol and his books The Party's Over and Powerdown, where he gives a hint about the second study of the Energy Working Group. Apparently they consider coal reserves to be as overestimated as Oil and Uranium reserves. Heinberg also states that he is tracking an independent Dutch study-in-progress reaching the same conclusions (for coal).
Ryan McGreal, Raise the Hammer: Coal is cheap and abundant. Other than the fact that it would increase CO2 production, can countries resist ramping up coal-to-liquids programs to replace declines in conventional oil?Miquel Torres has a degree in Physics from the University of Valencia, he currently lives in Germany and works in secondary education and in the field of energy investment.Richard Heinberg: Actually, future global coal production is routinely overestimated. That, at least, is the conclusion of an as yet unpublished study by the Energy Watch Group of Germany. That team has found that in the countries where coal reserves are well reported, the size of resources has been downgraded dramatically in recent years. There are other countries that have not changed reserves reports for decades, and it appears that those numbers are probably even more inflated than oil reserves numbers for OPEC.
The study concludes that global coal production will peak in 10 to 20 years. I'm tracking a Dutch study-in-progress where the researchers are using different criteria, and their preliminary results confirm the German study.
All of this has enormous implications for the climate debate (which is mostly about coal) as well as discussions about substituting coal-to-liquids for diminishing oil. Ultimately we are facing not just a liquid fuels crisis, but a general energy crisis.



don't forget reddit and digg and the linkfarms!
Since this post uncritically reviews an article by a group of anti-nuclear activists and seems so at odds with what is known, without serious question, about the abundance of Uranium in the crust, it has the potential to seriously mislead people. This issue is one of the most important in the whole energy area, as oil and gas decline and we realize that coal cannot be the answer. I think TOD should try to get someone who is expert in this area to write a much more comprehensive and balanced article about the world Uranium and Thorium supply.
Well, this was a kind of response to just an aspect of the very much uncritical post by Martin Sevior.
That was part of the intention. To present this new paper to give the opportunity to discuss it.
It is not at odds. It only considers the reserves in the categories that can be most easily extracted.
The rest of the reserves not considered are labelled "Undiscovered Prognosticated and Speculative". A discussion of those would have to involve EROI factors as well as a bottom-up analysis of production through output potential. Those are more difficult and controversial.
Martin Sevoir is a physicist at the University of Melbourne, unconnected in any way with the nuclear industry. The website nuclearinfo, of which he is one of the main contributers, and from which most of his post here on TOD derives, was written by scientists unconnected with the nuclear industry under the rigours of peer review. Thus, it is misleading in the extreme to paint him as a propagandist for nuclear power and yourself as merely the other side of the coin.
As for peak uranium, two main facts give the lie to this contention:
1) The latest Red Book survey produced by the NEA and the IAEA gives 14 million tonnes of conventional resources in all reserve categories. This does not, however, include speculative resources in Australia which could conceivably double this figure.
2) Only $13 billion has been spent on uranium exploration in the last forty years. Compare this with the trillions spent on oil and then try to claim that all the mineable uranium has been found.
Yes, but............
He did make the point that oil reserves kept going up until the went inexorably down ;>) Why should we think that the Uranium industry is any different on that count?
Since oil isn't radioactive, maybe it is easier to find Uranium
He did make the point that oil reserves kept going up until the went inexorably down..
What is described follows the general principle of over-optimism followed by over-pessimism, if I may put it like that. For ex. I have money in the bank to refurbish a house, I over estimate my resources, don’t husband them properly, or plan well; when things start going west I suddenly say, no we can’t afford this, or that, or the other, we are broke, etc. Result: the house is not properly done.
Social psychology has shown, if one extrapolates from all kinds of studies on germane or tangential topics, that group-think, or group-processes (as contrasted with my illustrative individual example) can both amplify and mute such phenomena. In some cases, the group exagerates or polarises the individual opinions or planned actions (eg. risk taking: groups like it, individuals are more wary, which is quite comprehensible; or crowd behavior, everyone becomes infected with nutty zeal...) and in others it smoothes out the extremes to settle on a mean which is often very sensible and accurate (eg. bets; judicial decisions, etc. - the ‘hive’ mind.)
It is all a mystery.
Energy ‘reserves’ or energy future 'projections' are definetly subject to these processes. That is hardly STOP PRESS material I know..
I didn't say or suggest he is "connected with the nuclear industry". I said he has stated the position of the nuclear industry, which is true. Or can you find a single point of his article that either differs or disagrees with it?. You may conclude that what they call "their findings" prove the nuclear industry provides very good data and never lies. That is fine. But they sure are what the nuclear industry has to say.
And your two points don't change anything. The peak will probably be higher than their world production graph shows, as resources in the "Undiscovered" category are developed. And the tail will be less steep and will probably begin later. The paper points to a problem the nuclear industry will have if it ever expands beyond 80kt/year demand.
I would argue the reserves in the "Undiscovered" category will have a hard time to make up for the decline of the best, high grade reserves.
Nice. The "position of the nuclear industry" here also happens to be the "position of reality." Should we dig up a quack to claim up is down just to make sure that this "up is up" stuff doesn't go unchallenged? You've watched too much nightly news, not every issue has two equal sides that can be faced off in the sound-bite-athon.
Mr. Sevoir doesn't need to be directly connected to the nuclear industry for making a point out of the fact that he - and many other physicists - has nearly identical beliefs as the industry communicate.
I think it's a issue of self interest. Of course they want society to increase their budgets and become more interested in their fields of expertise.
At my faculty, those involved with nuclear very often have almost an copernician view of the possibilities within their field. They basically believe that the resource base is infinite and that all technical problems (e.g. waste) undoubtedly will be solved.
Sometimes it's hard to tell - did they teach econ classes in a previous life?
Martin Sevoir's speciality is particle physics, not nuclear. He, together with scientists from various specialities, conducted an impartial investigation into the issues surrounding nuclear power under peer-review.
They did indeed use data from the nuclear industry as this tends to be high quality, being independently audited or peer-reviewed. They also consider data from nuclear detractors (Storm/Smith), geologists (Ken Deffeyes) and the companies that actually mine the uranium (Rio Tinto, BHP Billiton).
The fact that a study with no hidden agenda weighed the evidence and concluded that the anti-nuclear arguments were lacking and that the nuclear industry's have substance is noteworthy and I'm glad you acknowledge it, Miquel.
Interesting, so global warming isn't happening then, right? After all, only those pesky climate scientists say it is, and of course their research funding under the extremely liberal Bush administration is linked to them finding critical environmental problems that will cripple the fossil fuel industry, right?
How about peak oil, clearly that isn't happening either, as only the geologists and scientists say it is. For every scientists who believes this, Exxon can show you 50 hairdressers who do not.
Science isn't a popularity contest. 99.99% of the people who know anything about the field concluded that the Reimann hypothesis was true about 100 years ago, and yet a mere vote isn't enough, they still are trying to show it.
Here's my idea. If some tenured professor who answers to nobody (even his students perhaps), and spent his life studying a field you haven't the foggiest clue about says a thing is true, and the rest of these scientists agree with him, and they put their research out there where you could review it if you had the skills and inclination, perhaps it is more prudent to believe that it is probably true than to believe that it must therefore be false.
The greens and the right wing could really learn from each other, well, already have I guess. The greens complain about the wingnuts dismissing every shred of scientific evidence with respec to global warming, while simultaniously doing exactly the same thing with respect to nuclear power. Funny how life works.
Pardon, I now see that my post omitted some statements.
The observations I shared with TOD, which I'm quite sure other physicists on TOD share, was mainly about the behaveor and the way they argue. There is no room for doubt and they uncritically postulate that all problems will be solved within the necessary timeframe.
It's a slighly unintelligent and counterproductive retoric because it repels many people who may potentially be in favour of nuclear.
A somewhat amusing comment BTW. You know, there is quite a lot of academics who have studied the scientific community which more or less conclude, loosely speaking, that science in fact is a popularity contest. Of course, there are other scholars which oppose such views. I guess what you has been told about science mainly depends on who's outnumbering who :)
But of course, the above scheme is not absolute. Many times minor positions gain ground on basis of the contents of the arguments.
It's easier for "science" to avoid being a popularity contest in some fields. I'm not quite convinced that e.g. predictive climate science is one of them. Too much politics and orthodoxy.
(I'd briefly like to mention that i favour all carbon reducing measures. I live in norway, love tax.)
Seriously, bring on the holocaust deniers, I mean we apparently don't have any standards of reasonability here. If an anti-nuke says anything, and it's not the equivalent of "My cat's breath smells like catfood." CHECK YOUR FACTS!!!!!
99% of the time they are outright lying, or just understand nothing about the subject. Nuclear power has problems, availability of Uranium is NOT one of them. It is a settled question, far more so than "Global warming is happening.", maybe about on the level of "Smoking causes cancer." or something similar.
I mean, are we seriously going to start talking about EROEI of a resource that is conservatively pegged at around 100:1 (except by the anti-nukes, who claim it's more like 1:100)?
Time to whip out the clue stick. Much (probably most) of that energy is spent enriching, which has nothing to do with the grade of the ore, so even with really terrible ore, the situation won't get much worse than its spectacularly good level right now. Nuclear always had better EROEI than any fossil fuel, and always will.
Eh, whatever, why do I even bother.
Please calm down.
It is impossible for most of us here at TOD to discern real sources accurately. We are not experts in net energy analysis with several years of experience in the field.
Let's see what some experts have to say about nuclear (old style plants) EROEI.
Charles Hall: Nuclear (total system, probably old style plants) - around 10:1. Apparently not enough data exists to make accurate estimates. The around 100:1 figures are from industry, not from peer-reviewed sources. Need more data.[1]
Us Dept of Energy: EROI near 16:1. NB! The figures from various sources are not necessarily comparable. Problems with boundary definition are significant. [2]
Nuclear Energy industry: 47:1 to 59:1. Haven't checked sources to original sources, but look reputable on the surface (to a layman). [3]
"Green eco nutters" as they are often called here: c. 4:1 or possible systemic energy sinks. Many completely disagree and I'm not sure they are experts, but they do try to address the problem of "very wide boundary" systems.[4]
My apologies to anyone I've paraphrased. Any possible mistakes are mine and not intentional.
So, based on the data I'm able to find, the assertion:
Does more disservice to your argument, as 100:1 is more likely to be wrong than 10:1 is. The 100:1 figure, is not afaik substantiated by studies.
Or if you think it is not, can you please try to cite some sources.
BTW, I think the argument here should be SYSTEM EROEI, not fuel EROEI. That is the one that matters to us as a society on the short-to-mid term, although it may be possible to move closer to the theoretical fuel EROEI by taking into use better technology on the long term (less energy wasted in input and output).
[1] Charles Hall, Presentation at ASPO-USA 2006
[2] US Dept. of Energy
[3] http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf11.html
[4] http://www.mnforsustain.org/nukpwr_tyner_g_net_energy_from_nuclear_power...
PS I'm not and do not pretend to play an expert on the issue. I could be dead wrong on this, but this is what I've come across myself.
Those are also my thoughts.
I commented on this below, but the pro-nuclear posters are (mostly) neither polite nor very constructive.
Part of the response to a study I mentioned was: "They also appear to indulge in some magical thinking when it comes to the co-extraction of copper at the Olympic Dam mine which is quite amusing.". Condescending comes to mind.
About "Green eco nutters". I give this example(not representative):
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/Nuclear-Energy-Recovery-TimeOct00.htm)
They state an EROEI of 13, very different from the 4-5 you cite.
The other one is a "more recent Life-Cycle Energy Balance analysis by the university of Sydney". "Life-Cycle Energy Balance and Greenhouse Gas Emissions of Nuclear Energy in Australia". They are not anti-nuclear at all, and their conclusions do favor nuclear, but they calculate a EROEI of ~10. That is using Australia's present 0,15% ore grade average, an optimistic assumption for the future.
They are treated as incompetent and ignorant by the poster that aswered.
The argument I think, does just that. But you have to consider EROEI for the fuel cycle in the process.
It is very difficult as you say, to sort out reliable sources. But 100:1 doesn't look right. Such a dream EROI would have made Nuclear really cheap no matter the technology costs and all the world would be building nuclear plants. I guess we'll know for sure only when the good ores are depleted. In a free energy market it has not proved that it is as cheap as they say. And the argument that environmentalists have the power to stop nuclear power development is ridiculous. The societies with most green activism have the most nukes. And I am sure China et al. won't be stopped by those pesky greens. So when the real energy crisis starts, look at what those countries without "greens" do.
When one is refuting the same obvious half truths, statistical misrepresentations and outright lies over and over, polite manners are often in short supply.
Are we talking about energy payback of fuel? If we are, then solar and wind has an unmeasurably high energy return. Or are we changing the subject again?
Again, energy return of 10 on the fuel is absolutely ridiculous, because today most of the energy cost is enrichment via centrifuge, where we got ore from similar grades fifty years ago with gasseous diffusion, 50 times more energy intensive.
The notion that energy return on fuel or systems is directly tied with the price has been bandied about forever, but it just aint so. Its a bastardized simplification of economics.
Thank you Miquel (and Prof. Goose for posting). Great work.
I misread the 1980 production/price peak yesterday, my mistake.
But it is clear that the Uranium supply will not last for 'Millenia' as someone posted yesterday.
When I hear 'Millenia or Centuries', I can't help but to think there is a lack of understanding of the exponential function.
From the other side, if it we true, we are saved, let's build 1000s of reactors, change over with all that power to electric cars and trains, oooh...hydrogen.. and, oh maybe, 100 reactors just to power the space shots to launch the waste to venus. But alas, it is not so.
Nice fantasy though. It's almost as good as the ethanol one.
====================
It's all about population!
Then you cant think. Naive extrapolation of a function can lead to all sorts of nonsense results that have nothing to do with reality; When there are an estimated 120 trillion tons of fissionable material in the crust, the bottleneck stops being fuel and becomes waste heat rejection.
Even in case we could extract uranium from the Earth's crust with a meaningful EROI, do you really think it could be extracted at a high enough rate to be significant? like in the 50-100 kt/year range? Could you please calculate what an amount of soil/mountain you would have to process at that ore grade in order to achieve that through output?. Once you've done that, share it with us and then we'll talk again about those "120 trillion tons of fissionable material".
Oh easily. We remove mountaintops for a small amount of coal, and thats with a much smaller energy gain than you would get if you extracted the uranium and thorium from the coal instead of just burning it.
Oh come on, you got your degree in physics and can't even do arithmetic yourself? Fine...
1 metric tonne of U or Th per GW/year.
About 12-15 ppm of U and Th in the crust.
You need about 60-90 thousand tons per GW year.
Compare that to the average coal plant of several million tons of coal.
from http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2323
- A typical 1 GW Nuclear reactor requires around 200 tonnes of natural Uranium per year
- Uranium has an average crustal abundance of about 2.7 Parts Per Million
Result: 74 million tonnes.
That is a fine way to discuss things.
When you're talking about extracting beyond 1 trillion tons, we enter breeder reactor regimes, which consumes 1 ton of uranium/thorium per GW/year. Given theres about 1 trillion tons of uranium with ore concentrations above 20ppm I'd say its fair to say that we'll have developed some decent breeder/converter reactor before this fuel is used up. (At about 10million tons per GW/year, similar to coal power plants)
Fissionable material includes thorium which is roughly 10-12 ppm, which you seemed to have ignored.
Now if we dont use breeder regimes we certainly will use something more efficient than light water reactors, at the very least CANDU with MOX fuel, wich stretch fuel reserves by 4 times or more.
Your challenge was basic arithmetic, and waiting for me to set it up for you is either an illustration of complete ignorance on the very subject you just wrote an article on or a rhetorical challenge response tool for setting up your argument. If you have your ducks in a row, present your numbers rather than play this game of fools and politicians.
We are talking uranium here. If you want to discuss CANDU, MOX, or breeders, there is another set of issues with them, and they are not a technology we are currently using on a big scale. The costs per KWh wouldn't be the same with them.
I am not discounting those technologies at all. What I say is, If uranium reserves are not enough for a nuclear expansion, you have to clearly say that future nuclear means breeders, MOX, whatever.
For CANDU and MOX it nearly is! And thats with the old PUREX aqueous techniques from the 50s. Your challenge was on the 120 trillion tons of fissionable material which includes thorium. Now if you want to change the subject...
If you dont want to talk about that, fine, we'll restrict ourselves to the trillion tons of fissionable uranium ores with concentrations above 20ppm, and its still quite manageable... for LWR once through regimes with 20000 1GW reactors its still enough fuel for a quarter million years, and with historical energy demand growth trends its still enough to last a number of centuries.
By that point its fair to surmise we'll get decent breeder reactor regimes or cheap solar, and then the maximum power for earth is around 10^16 watts because any larger than the solar flux and you have serious climate control issues unless you're sticking giant radiators up into space. More likely you just start moving industry off planet at this point.
Your numbers seem off. I'm not sure where you got the "1 metric tonne of U or Th per GW/year" figure. If we just consider conventional fission reactors, the numbers I'm seeing are 20 - 50 kW per kg of uranium. Using an average of 35 kW per kg of Uranium, I get 30 tons of fissionable uranium per GW of energy. Uranium is present in soil at 2 - 4 parts per million. Of this, 0.7% is fissionable U-235, which has to be enriched to 5 - 20% to be used as fuel. This increases the number to something like 20,000 tons of soil per GW. For a 100 GW power plant, that would be 2,000,000 tons of soil per year?
I can't speak for Dezakin, but I think he's referring not to a generalized amount of Uranium in the soil, but specific places where Uranium does make up 20ppm - maybe in the same areas we currently mine coal? I do not know, but I'm reading between the lines of his overwrought rhetoric and thinking that must be referring to such places where Uranium is somewhat more common but not yet at a density that we would currently consider "conventional".
He does seem to have forgotten about the 0.6% being fissionable.
No, .7% is fissile. All of uranium and thorium is fissionable.
Whenever someone refers to U and Th they are speaking about breeder reactor regimes. I answered this in the post above.
If we are refering only to LWR once through regimes there are an estimated 1 trillion tons of uranium with energy returns in the range of coal, minable at 20ppm and greater. For a molten salt breeder reactor you need 1 ton of fuel (fertile or fissile) per GW year, and this has a correspondingly huge effect on energy return from ores such that ordinary crust has a rather huge energy return... You can mine the whole crust for its entire 120 trillion tons.
But at that point, its entirely academic. Its a moot issue before you even get to breeder reactor regimes.
Ahh..I see.
So can we continue growing for the next millenia or not?
Do the calculations and get back to me, cause you may just saved the world.
Best of luck
If you dont believe figures from resource estimates, why should I even talk to you? You'll chose what you want to believe and engage in a shouting contest. Is this the way of it or are you prepared to listen?
We can continue to raise energy production on earth untill it approaches the solar flux of 10^16 watts. With 120 trillion tons of uranium and thorium in converter reactor regimes that will last about 16 million years. After that further growth must be in space.
Does this smarmy bit of nonsense make you feel better about yourself? All the figures are here and its basic arithmetic.
"We can continue to raise energy production on earth untill it approaches the solar flux of 10^16 watts. With 120 trillion tons of uranium and thorium in converter reactor regimes that will last about 16 million years. After that further growth must be in space."
There are huge assumptions in this statement. It simplifies and takes a narrow view on things. How would such an endeavor affect global ecosystems? Human societies? If we managed to capture the entire solar irradiance falling on the Earth, as has been suggested about solar power elsewhere, that would leave nothing for vegetation, wouldn't it (save waste heat)? And if nuclear power achieved a near-equivalent energy output to total solar irradiance on the Earth, there'd be some serious warming issues from all the waste heat (after all, the sun would still be shining on the Earth, so the nukes would be adding considerably). Forget about fossil fuels being a problem. Doesn't sound like a world I would want to live in.
Ah, hell, I guess the world will be turned into a pile of slag one way or the other. Nuclear war, overrun with nuclear power, or that pesky sun getting ever brighter. All’s well that ends nuclear.
Anyway, it seems to me that a good exploration of nuclear power would integrate many important aspects. For instance, take an initial build-up of, say, enough nuclear plants to supply the world with 85 million BOE per day (or whatever would be required to eliminate all FF use), with a subsequent indefinite ramping up of, say, a modest 1% a year to allow for some constant economic growth. How would this effect the world’s ecosystems, and the human condition, among other things? What would my community look like in 2025, 2050, 2075 and 2100? Let me know what my child, and grandchildren will see. Now that would be interesting, and meaningful.
-best,
Wolf
The only point of talking about 120 trillion tons of U and Th is to lay to rest this idea that we could run out of fission fuel in the short to medium term. That idea is completely at odds with reality.
With that behind us, now we need to consider how we use this effectively limitless energy resource to address peak oil and global warming. Get used to the idea that fission power is not going away and is likely to be the mainstay of the world's energy future.
No, it just illustrates that the notion that there isn't enough fuel for nuclear power just doesnt have legs. If you want to take it into the far future, fine and well, but that changes the subject.
Sure if we got everything. But photosynthesis is less than 1% efficient and doesnt cover a huge percentage of the surface of the earth. Not our problem anyways, not for a good century or more... however long it takes for energy demand to grow 1000 fold.
You take it too seriously. Its an illustration that nuclear power isn't bound by fuel constraints. Its bound by waste heat rejection on any timeframe worth considering. I'd consider 10^16 watts the upper desirable bound for waste heat rejection without doing deliberate climate engineering.
Well that would require roughly 10000 1GW plants. With A 1% growth rate per year it would be about 30000 1GW plants at the end of the century.
Well the environmental impact would be significantly less than using coal.
"Well that would require roughly 10000 1GW plants. With A 1% growth rate per year it would be about 30000 1GW plants at the end of the century."
Hmmm... According to the US Census 2000, there were 19,355 incorporated cities in the US. So, even at the end of the century, with approximately 30,000 nuke plants operating world-wide, there wouldn't even be one nukie-wookie* per community (using the US Census definition of "city" across the gamut of urban centers world-wide). That seems a tolerable density of nuclear facilities, but I'm still not sure of the entire ramifications of such an endeavor. :o)
-best,
Wolf
* Maybe if y'all painted them pink, or friendly pastel colors, people wouldn't mind them so much. ;o)
Photosynthesis reflects 3% of radiation back into space, all the rest of the energy is either used by the plants or converted into heat, which is necessary to keep those fluids fluid. That's 97% efficiency.
That's true. But why use "better than coal" as a sufficient standard?
Given the fact that coal is about to be staring us in the face, do you have a better and perhaps more importantly "reasonably" easier standard to adhere to?
Don't get me wrong, I think Solar and Wind and tidal power have a big role to fill, one that could reduce the need for nuclear even, but I don't think Solar, Wind and Tidal can fill 100% of the bill, and thus Nuclear is going to have a role.... The is unless we want to keep burning FF on a grand scale.
Personally I think if we can reduce FF usage down to very niche endeavors were the advantages of having FF as a fuel outweigh having electricity as fuel, then we will be ok from an environmental standpoint. An example of what I'm talking about would be temporary high energy endeavors such as launching rockets, or exploring remote areas such as Antarctica where running electric power lines would be impractal. You might throw in mass shipping via Freighters into that mix, unless you want to make commercial nuclear reactors available on ships.
Try again when you learn something about thermodynamics. The carnot efficiency is less than 1%. Heat isn't work.
I do not understand why people find such good news so upsetting.
"Nuclear..is the only alternative energy source beside coal providing the type of electricity production necessary for the current electric grid model: big, base-load capable power plants. If that role is fulfilled, the current electricity production system can continue beyond Peak Oil, and even expand to provide the energy necessary for electrified transport. If it falls short, a new energy model is needed."
In a narrow, technical sense this could be considered accurate, but it's misleading. Wind and solar could provide what we need, and they could be accommodated by a grid that is somewhat more flexible than today's grid. This would only require expansion of existing elements of today's grid, such as long-distance transmission, demand management, storage, low cost peak generation, etc.
Actually, I think I'd have to argue that the proposition above is false. While nuclear is reliable, it is inflexible. France, for instance, realistically works because it is part of a larger grid that can absorb it's night time surplus and provide daytime peak capacity: probably nuclear can cost-effectively provide a maximum of very roughly 40% of a grid's kwhrs.
In this way it is very similar to wind and solar, and in fact the very same strategies that are needed by nuclear will also work for wind & solar. A good example is the Ludington, MI pumped storage plant, installed 30 years ago to handle the demand/supply mismatch problem for nearby nuclear capacity.
In fact, a viable non-fossil fuel grid would probably need 3 sources of generation, in the following very rough estimates of proportion: 45% baseload from wind & nuclear, 40% peak from solar and hydro, and 15% backup/peak capacity from biomass (biomass electrical generation is infinitely more efficient than liquid biofuels). These would be assisted by non-generating methods as mentioned above: long-distance transmission, demand management, storage, low cost peak generation, etc.
You may argue that Wind and Solar energy will be enough to cover all our energy needs, but we would need a grid that is more than "somewhat" more flexible than today's grid.
That is not to say it is impossible or much more expensive, it is just a different grid structure that needs to be worked out. Whether it is a completely decentralized model, an on-supply (instead of our on-demand model), an EUMED saharian concentrated solar electricity import model or whatever. Without those big, 1000MW power plants we would have to change our distribution grid.
Part of the point of my post is to reassure people that multiple alternatives to fossil fuels exist, and that renewables are up to the job even if nuclear is not. It sounds to me like you agree.
"we would need a grid that is more than "somewhat" more flexible than today's grid. That is not to say it is impossible or much more expensive"
First, it sounds like you agree that this is entirely feasible, and at a reasonable cost - that's the important thing.
Second, what makes you think an entirely different grid structure is needed?
For instance, adding long distance transmission (LDT) is a straightforward extension of the existing grid. Additional LDT would make the grid more robust, and reduce the variation of wind by increasing geographic diversity and reducing the ratio of variance to mean production.
Pumped storage is an old technology - have you taken a look at the Ludington, MI, US installation? It's cheap, it's proven, it's scalable.
Demand management is also very old. A very simple form of it is used universally for Industrial/Commercial billing, and has pushed a great deal of consumption to the night time. It works well, and it can be made much more sophisticated. The most obvious use is with plug-in hybrid-electric vehicles (PHEV's). As PHEV's expand they will provide an enormous synergy with variable sources like wind and solar.
Wind is perfectly consistent with a utility-managed grid. Don't forget, all generation sources have some variability, and consumption has enormous variation. Utilities have always had to deal with annoyingly unpredictable customers. The variation of wind is just more of the same.
Don't forget, solar is much better correlated with consumption than nuclear. That correlation is more important, and more valuable than the flat reliability of nuclear. Central CSP plants output curves (like those proposed for Africa) would look very nicely matched with peak consumption to a utility manager. Finally, the existing grid can and does accomodate roof-top PV.
Geographic diversity would reduce the relative variation of wind enormously. PHEV charging and pumped storage would soak up the remaining diurnal (within 24 hour) variation. Cheap backup generation would deal nicely with the very occasional protracted trough in generation.
All of this is very familiar to existing utility managers. Would they prefer the simplicity of nuclear? Sure. They'd also prefer customers that have flat demand curves, but they have very few of them, and pretty soon they'll be dealing with more and more variation on the supply side. A bit more work to manage, but not a whole different animal.
Does that make sense to you? Do you have sources that discuss the idea of a need for an entirely different grid? I've certainly seen much discussion of the need for a more intelligent grid with much more decentralized generation, but I see that as an evolutionary change, not a whole different species of animal.
Wind power as baseload power?
I would regard wind power as supplemental power for saving water in the hydro dams, fuel in fossil power plants and providing poor people with cheap hot water and power to clean clothes every other day.
Wind power could also be used for intermittent industrial processes such as production of hydrogen for nitrogen fertilizer production, heavy oil upgrading and other chemical synthesis. This could also be a use for night time nuclear power, in a society with lots of nuclear power and hourely rates metal will be melted and washing machines started during nighttime.
One problem with this threads article is that it concludes that uranium supplies are smaller at higher prices. It ought to be the other way around for geological reasons. Uranium is not about finding smaller and smaller geological lottery winners where everything happed to be perfect for creating and capturing an odd liquid substance. Uranium is a metal where lower grade ores are much more plentifull then higher grades.
It can be considered baseload at some 20%. See "Security assessment of future UK electricity scenarios" by the Tyndall Center.
It does not. Resources untill $80 include also those below $40. What you mean is "doubling the price doesn't more than double the reserves". Lower grade ores are included in the Undiscovered category. That wouldn't be a conclusion of the paper anyway, as it is the categories the nuclear industry uses.
"It can be considered baseload at some 20%."
The UK is much smaller than the US, and even there they find that with sufficient geographic diversity (within the UK) that wind variation is greatly reduced.
Further expansion is very doable, but it would have some increasing costs for integration. The optimum generation mix would have a wide variety of sources, so as to not push any one source past the point where marginal costs start to rise quickly than you would reasonably want. My estimate of that point, for wind, is around 35%. AlanfromfromBigEasy estimates that point at 53%.
It cant ever be baseload. You need dispatchable power for it to count. With either nuclear or wind you need some dispatchable power (hydro or natural gas) for peaking, but wind by itself just cant do baseload.
Well, not really. Some background:
1) Wind isn't the only generation source that has variance. In fact, all sources do. Most of it (maintenance, refueling, etc) can be scheduled, but not all. Nuclear can be tripped very suddenly - it doesn't happen all that often, but when it does the plant is offline for more than one day. The size of nuclear plants, and the duration of outages amplifies the impact of the variance, such that a small market like Ireland, for instance, has ruled out nuclear.
The key is managing the variance, and reducing it to tolerable levels. As discussed, this can be done in many ways, and in much the same way as is done to match nuclear's flat output with the variation in demand.
2) As you note, nuclear isn't really dispatchable. Wind and nuclear are similar in that they are capital intensive, and have very little marginal cost of generation. That means that utility managers/system operators will always maximize their output. "Dispatching" of these sources really consists of wasting some of their potential output at times of low demand when there is no place to put it.
3) "Baseload" itself is a bit of a misconception. Humans live in the light, and in effect have evolved to use solar energy. "Natural" night time energy use is very low. A large % of what we call "baseload" is Industrial/Commercial
demand which has been shifted from daytime to night time by very simple Demand Side Management (DSM): charging higher rates, or "demand charges" for peak daytime usage.
DSM could be easily expanded. The first, obvious place to start is eliminating flat pricing for residential. A second is going to dynamic pricing, to reflect variable costs.
"negawatts" in the form of reduced demand as a result of DSM is also very cheap. PHEV storage will be cost-justified by the vehicle owner, and reduced rates for scheduled charging will be a bonus.
4) Capacity is very cheap, if you don't have to use it often. The cost of diesel and natural gas generators is almost entirely in the fuel.
This is one big reason pumped storage hasn't been more widely used: until very recently natural gas peak capacity has been dirt cheap, and so relatively large-scale, long-term projects couldn't be justified. They often had to be paired with other large projects, like nuclear plants.
5) Biomass is a cost-effective (though not quite as cheap as coal), and scalable form of generation. It currently provides more electrical generation than wind. Biomass generation is much, much more efficient, cost-effective and E-ROI justified than liquid biofuels, and shouldn't be confused with them. Biomass provides energy storage, and could provide cost-effective seasonal or periodic backup.
So, the upshot of the above is that wind doesn't have to be 100% reliable, just reliable enough.
Does that help?
This sort of is besides the point. Nuclear is considered baseload where wind isnt because for 90%+ of the time it can supply the load of the minimum demand, where wind isnt reliable enough for that.
Thats not saying wind can't supply the grid if you have enough dispatchable power, but this isn't free. I sure hope wind can continue to grow, but I just cant stand it when the apparent success of wind as a small component of the grid is leveraged by some to imply that nuclear is unnecissary. We haven't seen any country manage to run the bulk of their electric grid on wind yet and I suspect that the costs of wind is much higher than many proponents suggest, though I honestly hope it becomes less expensive.
The real problem with wind is when its used as an excuse to avoid nuclear where its necissary (Germany for example) and then leading to a buildup in coal power to keep the lights on (Germany for example).
Exactly.
" Nuclear is considered baseload where wind isnt because for 90%+ of the time it can supply the load of the minimum demand, where wind isnt reliable enough for that."
And my point is that this is not true. Please re-read my post. Wind is indeed usable for this.
"Thats not saying wind can't supply the grid if you have enough dispatchable power, but this isn't free."
I agree that some backup would be needed. OTOH, such backup can be extremely cheap if it isn't used often. Again, I just finished discussing this in detail, and I'm afraid we'll go around in circles if you don't read it carefully and deal with the individual ideas there.
"We haven't seen any country manage to run the bulk of their electric grid on wind yet "
And the same is true for nuclear. Nuclear has been around longer, and has had the chance to grow more, it's true. This means that we have somewhat more experience with larger market penetrations of nuclear, but the technical characteristics of individual wind turbines are very well known. I agree that there is some uncertainty about system level behavior of large wind market penetrations, but we should keep in mind that utilities have been managing very large amounts of demand variation for a long time, and the methods for doing so are pretty well known. Applying them to production variation is technically straightforward, and in fact has been done with nuclear for load-following for a very long time - see Ludington, MI, USA.
You might object that France has a high % of nuclear, but in fact France only succeeds because it is part of a larger grid. It sells surplus to other countries like Switzerland, which conserves it's hydro production and in effect sells it back during the daytime peak (at a premium). As a practical matter the % of nuclear in this case is very roughly 25% of the grid, which is not far from the US, and not far from the 20% market level at which there is consensus that wind would be practical.
The German example is interesting. I would argue that wind feasibility may indeed make a difference, but that it's important to recognize the depth and source of European objections to nuclear. It's not really about environmental problems like waste. Really, it's about the connection with weapons production and proliferation - that's a different thing, and I think they would argue more important than any of the other objections. Europeans have a much more intimate experience with war than Americans...
Dispatchable power isn't extremely cheap, just less expensive than baseload on a per mw rating and more expensive on a per mw/hr rating. Both nuclear and wind need dispatchable power but because wind behaves like negative load you need far more dispatchable power than nuclear.
Its rather unclear that wind is competitive anywhere where there isn't allready a large surplus of dispatchable power.
Its been the case for decades that every time nuclear has been blocked for one reason or another the replacement has been largely coal and natural gas. Optimisitic assumptions for renewables encourage more of this tomfoolery.
I read all of your defense of wind, and it sounds rather optimistic. I'm sure wind will play a larger role in 30 years but I suspect the largest producer of electricity will still be coal and the second largest nuclear.
This is very wrong; Really think about this. Proliferation and weapons production is something everyone is concerned about except their own.
"Dispatchable power isn't extremely cheap, just less expensive than baseload on a per mw rating and more expensive on a per mw/hr rating. "
My understanding is that gas turbines can cost about $300 per MW, and diesel even less. That seems pretty cheap to me, compared to very roughly $1,000-2,000 for coal and nuclear. Yes, it may be more expensive per MWhr (if it's used infrequently, or fuel is expensive), but again, that doesn't matter that much if you don't generate that many MWhrs from that source.
"because wind behaves like negative load you need far more dispatchable power than nuclear"
I would disagree. Nuclear needs quite a lot of peak power (at least an amount equal to the nuclear capacity, and probably twice as much), and it would need even more if not for demand management (high daytime I/C rates moving consumption to night-time). Demand side management (DSM)can be thought of as a cheap form of dispatchable power, and nuclear needs quite a lot of it. All in all, I'd say nuclear needs a ratio of at least 3 kw of equivalent dispatchable power (peak power + DSM) for every 1 kw of nuclear. If you disagree, would you like to quantify your thesis?
"Its rather unclear that wind is competitive anywhere where there isn't allready a large surplus of dispatchable power."
Hmmm. It's certainly hard to compete against coal, which would cost at least twice as much if all of it's external costs were included. It's not hard to compete against nat gas lately, and I'd estimate most wind is cheaper than nat gas. If you disagree, would you like to provide your estimated costs for each form of generation, as I have done previously?
I'd say any form of generation would have a hard time functioning alone, especially nuclear, as I argued above.
"Its been the case for decades that every time nuclear has been blocked for one reason or another the replacement has been largely coal and natural gas. "
Sure. The problems with coal & nat gas weren't fully recognized before, and there weren't really alternatives. That's not the case now. What did you think of the NEI data on 2007 planned generation? For convenience, here it is again:
Check page 8 of www.nei.org/documents/Energy%20Markets%20Report.pdf
keeping in mind that wind has less than a 2 year planning window, so only 2007 is reasonably accurate for wind.
You'll see that wind is already 44% of planned new generation in the US (adjusted for capacity factor). It could easily provide all new generation in 5 years, and start replacing coal & nat gas after that.
"I read all of your defense of wind, and it sounds rather optimistic. "
I understand you feel that way, but we don't seem to be making headway understanding why. I've given a fair amount of specific info. Could you be more specific as to why you disagree?
"Proliferation and weapons production is something everyone is concerned about except their own."
Sure. We already know that countries that have nuclear weapons, or want them, have or are pursuing nuclear power. I think that the Germans and Swedes feel that's exactly the problem: the two are connected. You seem to be agreeing with them.
Yes well, here in Sweden we are very worried that our massive nuclear power program will result in us aquiring nuclear weapons, or that the Germans will.
We also warned for a very long time that the massive Israeli push for civilian nuclear power would result in them getting nuclear weapons.
Not.
Look, it is entirely possible to have civilian power without weapons as Sweden and Germany shows while having weapons without power is also possible, as Israel shows.
The fact of the matter is that every civilized country will aquire nuclear weapons if they believe it to be in their interest. The only way to stop it is to show them it is not in their interest. For this we have both stick and carrot.
The US successfully gave Sweden a carrot and ended our nuclear weapons and dual use program through a promise to put us under their nuclear weapons umbrella and supply us with cheap enriched uranium. This meant we left our domestic heavy water dual use program and went for wholly civilian light water reactors.
Iran should be offered a deal on these lines.
"here in Sweden we are very worried that our massive nuclear power program will result in us aquiring nuclear weapons"
As you note later, clearly at one time this was indeed a very big concern.
I cite Sweden and Germany because a large % of the population in those countries would like to see nuclear power end. I am discussing the reasons for that.
"The fact of the matter is that every civilized country will aquire nuclear weapons if they believe it to be in their interest. "
If the technology isn't easily available, the situation is very different. If Iran didn't have a nuclear program weapons would be harder to acquire. India & Pakistan wouldn't have weapons if they hadn't had a nuclear power program.
Regimes and their motivations change. Heck, 25 years ago Saddam Hussein was our bosom buddy, and Rumsfeld was selling weapons to Iran. Five years before that Iran started their nuclear power program under the Shah, and no one was concerned. If there had been no nuclear program for the ayatollahs to use, there would be much less concern now.
The Christian Science Monitor recently wrote about nuclear power vs proliferation. The CSM has been long considered one of the top 3 US newspapers for international coverage (along with the WSJ and NYT). Here's what they have to say:
"...the huge increases in energy demand anticipated across the developing world over the next two decades, coupled with a growing urgency about global warming, have nuclear nonproliferation experts focused on Iran's case for broader and even more unsettling reasons. If a sense of entitlement to nuclear power and the fuel that makes it possible is allowed to take root, they say, the world soon could find itself with dozens of nuclear countries with the means to switch from peaceful energy production to building a nuclear arsenal virtually overnight."
See the rest here http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0227/p01s01-wogi.htm
Yes, because we had a dual use program and were indeed developing weapons. Now we have a wholly civilian program and no weapons, as we do not believe we need them. If we felt we needed them we would build them.
You are misinformed. Swedes are the most pro-nuclear people in the world. More than 80 % support nuclear power.
You don't even need a reactor to build weapons. An enrichment facility will be well enough. And we can't stop any civilized country from aquiring either weapons or civilian power. Everyone who wants it will get it, no matter if we have nuclear power or not.
It's pretty sad if that's the best international coverage in the US, as the paper is pretty crappy.
The thing is that already today, all civilized countries, with nuclear power or not, can rather swiftly become weapon states.
Dual use reactors will speed that up, but entirely civilian ones won't.
"Swedes are the most pro-nuclear people in the world. More than 80 % support nuclear power."
I think that's a bit strong. OTOH, I guess Swedish public opinion has shifted more towards nuclear lately. On the 3rd hand, there are indeed a lot of Europeans that oppose nuclear power.
"An enrichment facility will be well enough."
Sure. But how do you defend enrichment with no power plants? A nuclear power program is a powerful figleaf. Even now there are people who defend Iran's nuclear program as having peaceful aims.
"we can't stop any civilized country from aquiring either weapons or civilian power. Everyone who wants it will get it, no matter if we have nuclear power or not."
On the one hand, I agree that the best defense against proliferation is to remove the desire for weapons. OTOH, If what you say about access to weapons is true, then I see a very bleak future, indeed. It alarms me that some nuclear advocates seem to think that widespread nuclear weapons are no big deal. I've even seen one advocate (Rod Adams) suggest that every nation should have them, to promote peace. I think that's a good example of either one's economic interest making one lose one's objectivity, or just irrationality, period.
"It's pretty sad if that's the best international coverage in the US...."
hmmm. Well, it certainly used to be. Maybe it's gone downhill. What makes you feel that way? Have you read the paper for a while, or are you judging just from that article? What english language paper would you suggest?
It was probably a mistake to point to the paper's credentials. The more important question is, what did you think of the article?
" all civilized countries, with nuclear power or not, can rather swiftly become weapon states."
That seems too strong, but even if we stipulate the point, the caveat "all civilized countries" is a big one. Would you include countries at the same level as Pakistan and N. Korea in that group?
To the surprise of our Swedish MSM public opinion has continued to be positive to nuclear power after the Forsmark incident and numerous negative articles about nuclear power.
In february 33% wanted to build new nuclear power if it is needed, 44% wanted to keep what we have and 20% wanted to phase out nuclear power. www.temo.se
Sometimes it is quite funny. As when a transformer burned at the Ringhals nuclear powerplant and the web vote below a very nuclear negative article topped by a picture of a nuclear powerplant with a black smoke plume had more votes for building new nuclear powerplants then for getting rid of nuclear power. No statistical significance but hopefully it made the journalist think some new thoughts.
I suspect you mean per KW, but you do have to spend a significant amount on the fuel when your swing load is high. This isn't free either. You could go for pumped hydro which has a higher cost per installed KW, but it all comes down to extra cost for intermittency.
Excuse me? First you're disagreeing with an obvious statement, that nuclear needs less dispatchable backup than wind, with lots of assumptions and no numbers and then say if I disagree I better put my numbers up?
Only where surplus dispatchable power is free. Where you have lots of hydro or natural gas plants that were operating as baseload.
I think you're optimism is getting not only the better of you but this sort of optimism leads to consequences like Germany phasing out nuclear power and installing 26 new coal power plants.
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/mar2007/gb20070321_923592....
I'll review this in some depth and provide technical comments later.
In the meantime, the top Google item for the study's author came back as:
"Hans-Josef Fell, 2001 Nuclear-Free Future Solutions Award Recipient"
(http://www.nuclear-free.com/english/fell.htm)
While this admittedly ad hominem point is not definitive it should suggest caution. The man had his mind made up before he started the study and intended to produce the result it did. That is, this is not a disinterested study - the conclusion came first.
Likewise, I am transparently pro-nuclear and have devoted my working career to using nuclear power to produce clean, commercial electricity. I would add that before I made that life commitment, I investigated this very point about resources and found a substantial body of work that shows the opposite conclusion - there is an stupendious amount of energy to be had from uranium and thorium.
Now, back to work building new nukes - more comments later.
Joe Somsel wrote:
Hopefully we haven't just seen a confession to being some form of mechanical zombie.
If so, you are likely to get treated like a vending machine. We'll give you a kick to get something real out of you.
(Not anti-nuke. Anti-PR. Contra faith-based zombies)
That would be great.