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DrumBeat: June 29, 2007
Posted by Leanan on June 29, 2007 - 8:03am
Topic: Miscellaneous
Last October, an independent task force of the Council on Foreign Relations - which included John Deutsch, the former Director of Central Intelligence, and James Schleisinger, the former Secretary of the Departments of Defense and Energy - warned: 'The lack of sustained attention to energy issues is undercutting U.S. foreign policy and U.S. national security.'Indeed, in his State of the Union Address in 2006, President Bush acknowledged: 'America is addicted to oil.'
However, simply recognizing our addiction - and its nexus to our national security and future prosperity - is insufficient. We must take bold action to break that addiction.
Roscoe Bartlett and Tom Udall: Going green is patriotic and profitable
The most disconcerting aspect of the climate change debate is that America is missing what could be the biggest opportunity of the 21st century in terms of financial reward, innovation and leadership. Much of the rest of the world aims to wean itself from fossil fuel use. The benefits of America reducing its dependence are abundant. Take a look...
Legislators seek new road-funding alternatives
Georgians currently pay 18.4 cents a gallon to the federal highway fund and another 17.3 cents a gallon to the state.So far, it has been politically touchy at either level to suggest raising those taxes, especially when motorists are concerned about rising prices at the fuel pump.
State Department of Transportation officials have begun considering a partnership with private road contractors to help get some of the more ambitious projects started around traffic-clogged Atlanta.
Get Americans to drive less by raising gas taxes
Tougher CAFE standards won't make a dent in US oil consumption because those with more fuel-efficient cars tend to drive more.
Don’t Let Government Wreck Free Markets
Widespread shortages of gasoline prompted rioting throughout Iran this week.The Iranian experience is a clear warning to Americans: Attempts by government to control free markets can have extremely unpleasant consequences.
Two necessities, fuel and food, create spiral of rising prices
While we worry about gas prices, the costs of milk, meat and fresh produce silently soar. So like the end of cheap energy, is the era of cheap food also finally over?
John Michael Greer: Völkerwanderung
German historians of the 19th century coined a useful word for the age of migrations that followed the fall of Rome: Völkerwanderung, “the wandering of peoples.” Drawn by the vacuum left by the implosion of Roman power, and pushed by peoples from the steppes further east driven westward by climate change, whole nations packed their belongings and took to the road. The same thing has happened many other times in the past, though not always on the same vast scale. What makes it important for our present discussion is that we are likely to see a repeat of the phenomenon on an even larger scale in the fairly near future.
Pennsylvania: Fare hike to offset COLT’s growing costs
Increased fares will help the County of Lebanon Transit Authority balance next fiscal year’s budget and avoid a repeat of this year’s operating deficit, according to Executive Director Teri Giurintano.
etrol prices weigh on the mind of any motorist, but there are predictions that if the cost of fuel continues to rise, the poorest Australians will be forced to quit work because they can't afford to travel back and forth to their jobs.Researchers are calling it "transport poverty", and it's a concept that'll be presented to a conference in Melbourne today.
Bulgaria opts for higher-than-expected electricity tariff hike
The Bulgarian power regulator Thursday approved a 7.5% upward revision of household electricity tariffs to take effect July 1, citing rising fuel prices on the international and the domestic markets.The adjustment is higher than the projections made by the regulator himself, in the 1-2% range.
Philipines: Jeepney fare hike stopped
QTV television's Balitanghali quoted Lantion as saying that a new decision on the fare hike would take about 30 days.Petitioners had cited rising prices of fuel, spare parts, and basic commodities in asking for the hike from P7 to P7.50 .
Peak Oil: Investing in the Apocalypse
According to the United Nations, the world's population will grow to a staggering 9.2 billion people by 2050....That's an increase of 2.7 billion people. This is the same amount as the Earth's total population in 1950!
I'm not trying to pick a fight on ways to control the population. Instead, I'm more concerned about how we'll get enough energy to support that massive growth. Because when it comes to future energy supplies, we need to be worried about scale.
Public transit ridership in Canada hits record in 2006
Public transit ridership in Canada increased in 2006 by just over three per cent to set a record for the fourth year in a row.
A cleaner North Sea? Ship fuel suppliers hedge bets
European ship fuel suppliers are hedging their bets ahead of tighter fuel quality rules from November amid uncertainty about demand for the cleaner grade and expectations that some ship operators will ignore the new rules.
Corn crop exceeds already high expectations
Farmers this year planted the most corn since the waning days of World War II, outpacing already high expectations for the crop, according to a federal report issued Friday.
Milk-fired power plants on the horizon
Small power stations could soon burn milk instead of polluting fossil fuels such as coal and gas.Kurt Alen, chief executive of Belgian sustainable energy generator Thenergo, said that dried milk could be used alongside other agricultural products and waste material in power plants that generate 1-20MW of electricity.
The pricing of gas has become one of the most important economic questions before the government, since it has implications for future energy scenarios. Gas, after all, is the fastest growing source of energy, and the preferred form of fuel for many industries, including power and fertiliser. It could also become the fuel of choice in kitchens, and for transport. This explains the fuss over Reliance Industries’ proposal to price its gas at more than $4.50 per million British thermal units (Btu).
Pemex: Schlumberger Wins Chicontepec Oil Drilling Contract
Petroleos Mexicanos has awarded oil services firm Schlumberger Ltd. a four-year contract to drill 500 wells in Mexico's Chicontepec oil region, a Pemex official said Thursday.
Bill would deny supply of gasoline to Iranian government
Leaders of a bipartisan House panel, seeking economic pressure against Iran, moved Thursday to reduce Tehran’s import of gasoline.A bill introduced by Reps. Mark S. Kirk, R-Ill., and Robert E. Andrews, D-N.J., who set up a congressional working group on Iran’s nuclear programs two years ago, coincided with angry protests in Tehran against fuel rationing.
Gas shortage frustrates Iraqis, fuels black market
Ali Salman left home at 6 on a recent morning, hoping to beat the crowd to the local gas station.When he arrived, he found a horrifying sight: Scores of people already were ahead of him, having spent the night in their cars on the street.
With oil hanging around $70, and gas likely to move above $3 for all of the summer, it bears looking at who gets hurt...
China CNPC Buys Exploration Rights To Canada Oil Sands
In a sign of the expanding international ambitions of China's oil companies, China National Petroleum Corp. has bought the rights to explore for oil in Canada.
Weekly Offshore Rig Review: Jackup Turning Point
In the previous edition of the Weekly Offshore Rig Review, we examined the future demand for deepwater semisubmersibles and how fleet growth is affecting demand. This week, we continue to provide predictive data and analysis from our RigOutlook reports, this time focusing on the jackup market.
South Korea: Int'l oil prices expected to exceed US$65 per barrel in Q3
International crude oil prices are expected to top US$65 per barrel in the third quarter, spurred by strong demand for refined products, the state-run oil company said Friday.
Four years ago, a barrel of oil sold for $25. Not coincidentally, at that time the recent American invasion of Iraq had removed nasty Saddam and created the expectation - not a vague hope but a very real expectation - that Iraq's oil production would soon double, in line with its existing capacity, and would eventually rise much further, in line with the country's enormous reserves and potential production.
Vietnam: EVN mulls blackouts for July
Vietnam’s State-run electricity provider is considering rolling blackouts next month when it is scheduled to shut down a major oil field for maintenance, company officials announced this week.
UAE inflation unlikely to be tamed as import costs rise
Manufacturers and suppliers in various sectors, ranging from food to petroleum, want to raise prices of goods and services.
Dems' plan on energy tilts green
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi unveiled new Democratic legislation that marks a tectonic shift in the energy priorities in Congress, revoking $16 billion in tax breaks for oil and gas drilling and creating incentives to produce biofuels and boost energy efficiency.
You get what you pay for. When you build lighter cars with more fuel efficiency, you know that ultimately -- even with the best (let alone Chinese) technology -- safety is compromised. That happened three decades ago when U.S. mileage efficiency rose dramatically in response to the oil shocks of the '70s. It will likely happen again.
New hybrids will help clean up SUVs' act
While Chrysler Group is convinced the love affair many North American consumers have with large SUVs isn't going to fade away any time soon -- even with high fuel prices -- the gas-guzzling reputation those vehicles have earned is about to take a hit.
CN today halted freight operations and embargoed all traffic on its Toronto-Montreal main line after reportedly armed native protesters erected an illegal blockade on the company's tracks near the eastern Ontario town of Marysville, located approximately 10 miles east of Belleville, Ont.
Guyana: Hike in fertilizer price will see drop in rice production
Production levels for the current rice crop are "seriously threatened" by the high price of fertilizer and the Rice Producers Association (RPA) is lobbying the government for concessions to mitigate the situation.
Charity attacks rush for biofuels
A furious attack on the drive to grow more biofuels has been launched by a charity supporting poor farmers in developing countries.The charity - called Grain - says their research shows the rush for biofuels is causing much more environmental and social damage than previously realised.
Groups unite to halt EU biofuels rush
More than 30 groups from around the world have come together to demand a moratorium on the EU's move towards sourcing biofuels from large-scale monocultures.
Biofuels are said to be one answer to global warming but some are not happy with turning crops into fuel.Helena Paul of Econexus and ex Shell chairman Lord Oxburgh debate their use.
Two years ago, Cadarache was selected as the site for the world’s biggest nuclear fusion experiment, a $13 billion international project known as ITER. The ground has not yet been fully cleared for the new reactor. Construction is expected to last until 2016. And ITER's partners don't expect to demonstrate commercially viable energy production until 2040 or so. Nevertheless, things are humming around Cadarache: The talk at the dinner table (yes, over a tangy glass of Chateau de Clapier Cuvee Soprano) was about how housing prices are going up, and how rooms at the chateau are getting scarcer.
Society 'needs the right chemistry'
Carbon offsetting schemes are all well and good, but do little to change the way people live day-to-day, argues Stefaan Simons. In this week's Green Room, he says instead of wasting money on short-term solutions, attention should be focused on developments that can really deliver a low carbon future.
Oil price-demand link no longer as simple as ABC
“Never say never. However, it is fair to say that a lot of the easy substitution away from oil has already happened,” said Lawrence Eagles, head of the oil industry and markets division at the IEA, which represents 26 industrialised consumer nations.“The primary driver of oil demand is GDP growth and not prices. And as world moves towards a more transportation fuel oriented model these rigidities become more entrenched.”
House OKs Interior Bill Forcing Renegotiation Of Oil Leases
The House late Wednesday passed an Interior Department budget for 2008 that could negatively impact oil and gas development.The Interior appropriations bill - which passed by a 272-155 vote - would force re-negotiation of 1998-99 oil and gas leases that omitted royalty price thresholds, delay planned exploration and production in Bristol Bay, Alaska, and slow oil shale development.
Saudi Aramco delays hydrocracker restart
Saudi Aramco has delayed the restart of its 44,000 barrels per day (bpd) hydrocracker by about three weeks due to technical snags, following routine maintenance at the Ras Tanura refinery in end-April, industry sources said yesterday.
Pakistan buys July-Sept fuel oil at lower premiums
Power shortages: The shortages have been caused by growing electricity demand, expected at 8 percent annually over the next five years, outstripping supply that is anticipated to grow at 7 percent.
Nuclear Power for Bangladesh- Dream Must Come True
Bangladesh is suffering from acute energy crisis. Years of mismanagement, poor governance, corruption has almost brought the energy sector on the brink of collapse. After 36 years of our independence earned through supreme sacrifice of 30 million valiant freedom fighters and innocent civilians only about 30% of our people have access to electricity and even then the quality of supply is poor.
Dominican Shell scandal: fuel figures were hidden since 2004
Shell’s representatives in the Dominican Petroleum Refinery’s (Refidomsa) governing board have prevented the Government’s attempts to know the figures on fuel purchase costs and marketing since 2004.
Petro-Canada Leaving Venezuela
Petro-Canada has decided to pull out of Venezuela and has reached an agreement with the state oil company on compensation for its oil investments, the Venezuelan government said.
Farewell, Venezuela hello, oilsands
Less than five years ago, like many of the country's oil and gas companies, Petro-Canada was so outraged by Ottawa's decision to sign the Kyoto Protocol that it announced minutes after it was signed, on Dec. 10, 2002, that it had purchased a 50% interest in the La Ceiba block in Western Venezuela.
Oil Companies Weigh Risk in Venezuela
ExxonMobil Corp. and ConocoPhillips have decided the profits are not worth the risk of staying in Venezuela and are writing off multibillion-dollar investments in the South American country.But other major oil companies have accepted the increasingly tough terms posed by President Hugo Chavez's government because they face few appealing alternatives elsewhere. Terms are even tighter in Russia; they're barred from the Middle East, and Africa comes with its own troubles of violence and instability.
Venezuelan Heavy Oil Projects Downgraded, Placed Under Review
Moody's Investors Service has downgraded the ratings of Corpoguanipa SA, Hamaca Holding LLC (together the Hamaca project), Petrozuata Finance Inc, and Sincrudos de Oriente SINCOR CA to "B2" from "B1" and placed them under review for further downgrade.
Tensions Rise in U.S.-Russia Relationship
U.S. President George Bush and Russian President Vladimir Putin retain outwardly friendly relations. Putin is the only foreign leader to have been invited by Bush to his family's compound in Kennebunkport, Maine, the site of their July summit meeting.Behind the public smiles, however, there's little sign of an improvement in the downward spiral of U.S.-Russia relations.
The Problem's Not Peak Oil, It's Politics - Go-it-alone governments are choking back output to perilous levels
Some "peak oil" cassandras warn that global energy production will soon fall into permanent decline. But a more immediate danger to world oil supplies may be the tempestuous politics of many producing countries. Witness Venezuela's move to wrest control of key oil projects from global companies on June 26. The move echoes steps taken in other nations that will likely either decrease production or slow its growth in coming years. "The oil is in the ground, but serious doubts are being raised about whether countries have the desire and means to produce it," says Leo Drollas, deputy director of the Center for Global Energy Studies, a London think tank.
Oil prices near ten month highs
World oil prices climbed on Friday, with London and New York futures close to ten-month highs above 70 dollars a barrel on supply concerns in the United States, the world's biggest consumer of energy.
House energy bill rejects car fuel economy boost
A House committee on Thursday approved legislation that would increase the energy efficiency of home appliances and promote plug-in hybrid vehicles, but the measure fell short of a related Senate bill that seeks to increase the fuel economy of cars and trucks.
InterOil shares' crash merits probe, RS says
A sudden crash in the share value of a Canadian oil-and-gas explorer that a year ago said it uncorked the largest natural gas discovery ever in Papua New Guinea warrants an investigation, said insider-trading watchdog Market Regulation Services Inc.
Eni Restores Nigeria Oil Output
Crude oil production from Eni SpA'S (E) Okpoho and Okono fields in Nigeria has returned to its normal 65,000 barrels a day output, traders of West African crude said Thursday.Production from the fields was shut-in after a militant group attacked May 3 an offshore production ship 55 miles off the southern coast of Nigeria in the Okono field.
Iraq: Bomb damages oil pipeline
A bomb exploded Friday under an oil pipeline south of Baghdad, spilling crude oil and sparking a huge fire, Iraqi police said.
Severe environmental impacts would result from any large-scale development of oil shale resources, including those in Utah, conservationists say.
Iraqi Govt Body Rejects Some Oil Law Clauses
The highest Iraqi government jurisdiction body has rejected some clauses of the controversial draft oil and gas law and urged the Cabinet to amend these provisions, according to a recent letter sent by the body, the State Shuraa Council, to the Cabinet and seen by Dow Jones Newswires Thursday.
India, Pakistan, Iran near gas deal
India, Pakistan and Iran are close to signing an agreement on transporting natural gas from Iran to the two South Asian countries via a land pipeline by 2011, Indian officials said Friday.India and Pakistan appear to be moving forward on the deal despite U.S. opposition to the $7 billion pipeline because Washington fears it would weaken efforts to isolate Iran, which it accuses of running a clandestine nuclear weapons program.
Live Earth concerts to deliver climate SOS: Gore
Former Vice President Al Gore on Thursday urged people worldwide to pressure their governments to cut global warming pollution by 90 percent in developed countries and by more than half worldwide by 2050.
2007 seen as second warmest year as climate shifts
This year is on track to be the second warmest since records began in the 1860s and floods in Pakistan or a heatwave in Greece may herald worse disruptions in store from global warming, experts said on Friday.
Only in New Orleans
I saw a mule drawn "flat car" (home made) with four auto tires and a shaded "cab" trotting back towards two carriage stables in the Marigny (I suspect returning after dropping off mule manure at a local garden center). But could be used for any sort of load.
Better than using a pickup truck,
Best Hopes for old solutions,
Alan
Excuse me Alan and everybody, this is pretty OT, but your report immediately brought these lines to my ears:
She caught the Katy
And left me a mule to ride
She caught the Katy
And left me a mule to ride
Now my baby caught the Katy
Left me a mule to ride
The train pulled out
I swung on behind
Crazy 'bout her
That hard headed woman of mine
(Well known from the starting sequence of 'The Blues Brothers', originally by Taj Mahal IIRC, a terrific song)
For an ignorant European as me, you might be the right person to tell me who or what is 'Katy'?
Missouri Kansas Texas Railroad. All its boxcars had "KATY" stencilled on the side and that is how it became known in folklore and song.
Katy was supposedly quite serious about electrifying their Dallas-Houston line before they were bought out by Union Pacific.
Their plans were overlooked on this map.
http://www.trains.com/ctr/objects/images/railroad_electrification_1970s....
Best Hopes for non-oil transportation,
Alan
You would never know it from current mainstream media and politics, but believe it or not, there is a certain romance attached to railroads in the USA. It exists side-by-side with a visceral hatred, especially west of the Mississippi River, left over from the railroads' heyday, when their pricing practices for shipping grain and other products were often quite abusive. So it's a yin-and-yang thing.
As is the case with many of the old railroads, there is a Katy historical society. The Katy has a complicated history and is now owned by Union Pacific.
Only in New Orleans
I saw a mule drawn "flat car"
No, I believe one can get plenty of 'stock photos' of animal drawn autos.
Great Depression in the US, Cuba, Africa all being examples.
Wow, a Business Week article with Peak Oil in the headline! Although the analysis in the article is quite shallow, this will introduce a few more people to the concept of peak oil. Anyone know if this article made the print version of the magazine, or is it just relegated to the on-line site?
Great article, I'm glad it's by someone that they can't dismiss as a doomer peak oilier.
Once again, it's not how much oil may be in the ground.
It's all about EXPORTS! EXPORTS! (edit:yes i'm shouting)
(at least to the USA)
Ed
Off Grid, Off Mainland, current profession:Beach Bum
The headline of the Business article is vintage "Iron Triangle" stuff, basically quoting the ExxonMobil, et al, line that only if major oil companies had unrestricted access to producing areas, they could produce trillions and trillions of barrels of oil (although the article itself is a little more nuanced).
I don't dispute ExxonMobil's claim that they can do a better job of producing reserves, but I do question whether it is really that material. Empirically, the function of oil companies in post-peak regions is to slow the rate of decline.
I am getting really, really bad feelings about just how bad the contraction in world oil export capacity might be--while the prevailing (but very slowly changing) message from the Iron Triangle continues to be "Party on Dude!"
A copy of my post from the "Needle" thread:
BTW, as of this morning, Google shows 1.6 million listings for Net Oil Exports and 81 million listings for Paris Hilton.
So the Paris Hilton/Net Oil Exports ratio is fifty to one.
WT:Maybe the Iron Quadrangle. Combined with the Iran story and the OPEC lawsuit proposal, it seems like there are more and more stories in the MSM implying that force (military and otherwise) needs to be employed to get these slackers/troublemakers sitting on our oil to start getting the volumes up and over here OR ELSE.
(See the WSJ article down the thread)
What is more than a little scary is the number of Americans who think seizing foreign oil fields is a swell idea.
I am proposing the formation of "Neocon Brigades," to be sent to Iraq, consisting of: (1) Pundits who are still in favor of staying in Iraq and (2) People driving large SUV's and trucks with Bush/Cheney bumper stickers.
Best hopes for a lower Paris Hilton/Net Oil Exports ratio...LOL
deleted
But if they have an Al Gore bumper stick on their SUV they get to stay stateside? Or if their electric bill is $3,000 a month (like Al Gore), but they're not a Neocon, it's all OK? A little flaw in the logic perhaps?
Freakonomics Exercise: As bad as this 'war' has been conducted, how does the 4,500-ish American military death figure compare to, say, the number of deaths in the US over this period from drunk driving? Medical malpractice/incompetance?
Is your disgust at unnecessary death proportionate or are deaths from some causes less objectionable than from others? Are war related deaths worse than medical incompetance related deaths or drunk driving related deaths?
I've read a ton of neocon/Bush bashing (some quite justified, some not) on TOD from many posters, but seldom much perspective.
So, are you volunteering for one of the Neocon Brigades?
As we have been discussing, I think that the junior officers are the weak link in the Neocon's plans. It is beginning to dawn on the junior officers that they and the troops in their commands are dying and being maimed in order to maintain American access to and/or control of Middle Eastern oil fields--with no end in sight to constant deployments.
Of course, some people might consider the tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died in Operation Iraqi Freedom worthy of some consideration.
Perhaps we could process dead Iraqis into some sort of liquid transportation fuel, in order to better serve the greater good of maintaining the "Non-negotiable American Way of Life." This would serve two purposes, it would: (1) Reduce Iraqi consumption of our oil and (2) Increase the supply of liquid transportation fuels. It would be a win/win proposition.
While I was working in El Paso, I met a lot of officers and ranking enlisted men at the motel. Very nice, decent fellows and a credit to our country. They were almost to a man(and woman) frustrated by the war, and most of them were recent veterans.
Their main criticism was that the war aims had changed 3 times, that they had done the job they were sent to do. Although they were to a man careful not to criticise their Commander in Cheif, they also had nothing good to say about him.
Sometimes a person has to call things for what they are. This war and its perpetrators are evil. 700,000 civilian dead, 4500 US dead, the torture of prisoners, the abrogation of our constitutional rights and Iraqis human rights-all so our country can steal oil; its evil.
WT
Thank you for mentioning the innocent Iraqi casualties. It's the rare American, it seems in the MSM, who actually admits that a non-American's life has any worth. Iraq is an American tragedy, not because of American lives lost, but because of its citizens' and representatives' failure to be brave in the face of a megalomaniacal administration.
Note: I trust many of this site's American participants would be exceptions to the rule.
Who is killing the innocent Iraqi citizens? Is it the US military or is it the terrorists (Iraqi,Iranian, ???) who are setting off all the bombs that are killing the civilians?
When you have vicious criminal terrorists killing innocent civilians, getting rid of the police force is not the best idea of a way to try to protect the innocent civilians. The US/Allied forces are the effective police force in Iraq at the moment and are dying trying to stop the killing of civilians by criminal terrorists and I personally don't think they deserve the kick in the butt they are getting here on TOD.
Seeing as how we have criminals killing innocent civilians here in the USA and also killing police officers, maybe the right thing to do would be to disband all the police forces to stop the violence? - I don't think so.
If any of the people here on TOD have proof that it is the American/Allied troops that are setting off all the bombs that are killing innocent civilians in Iraq instead of the terrorists I would like to see that proof posted here on TOD.
The continued false inundos of mass murder against the American and Allied troops in Iraq is not going to help put TOD or Peak Oil advocates in a positive light. Remember how you think of CERA for putting out tainted/false information!
Who is killing the innocent Iraqi citizens ?
The United States of America. Either directly, via "collateral damage" and occasional malicious actions (a random burst into a house when someone made an obscene gesture on patrol that does not get reported, that sort of thing) or indirectly.
the terrorists (Iraqi,Iranian, ???) who are setting off all the bombs that are killing the civilians ? You left out the biggest source, the Saudis who are financing the Sunnis (source of 2/3rds of US causalities) and supplying most of the al Queda in Iraq manpower.
Hundreds of Saudis have been IDed as suicide bombers, not ONE Iranian.
Before the US Army & Marines crossed the border into Iraq, there were no "terrorists setting off all the bombs killing civilians".
As Colin Powell told our Commander-in-Chief BEFORE the invasion. "It is like the Pottery Barn. You break it (the existing gov't), you own it". That includes morally owning this civil war that will likely result in 1 million dead and 5 million refugees (seriously disrupted lives) before it is finished.
It is said that Hitler was responsible for a war that killed 30+ million. It can also be said that GWB is responsible for a war that will kill 1+ million.
No Best Hopes,
Alan
"Who is killing the innocent Iraqi citizens ?
The United States of America. Either directly, via "collateral damage" and occasional malicious actions (a random burst into a house when someone made an obscene gesture on patrol that does not get reported, that sort of thing) or indirectly."
Male cow manure!
"Before the US Army & Marines crossed the border into Iraq, there were no "terrorists setting off all the bombs killing civilians"."
Before we entered Iraq, Saddam and his troops were slaughtering the Kurds up north and the Sunnis down south in Iraq including the gassing of entire villages. I was under the impression that that was part of the reason the Allies went into Iraq - to stop all that killing. Or should we have just turned a blind eye to all the killing that Saddam was doing? And what about all those killed by Saddam's reign of terror in Kuwait and Iran? Should we have turned a blind eye to that too?
Unfortunately, Jon, we knew about Saddam's misdeeds. In fact, there is some evidence that we may have helped to arm him and provide him with military intelligence because we hoped that he would be a deterrent against the radical Islamic regime in Tehran. See, for instance...
For more, read here
Curious thing about the whole Iraq debacle. The more you read, the worse it smells.
Jon Kutz - You sir have an awful lot of reading to do on the internets.
Either that or you may just want to stay safe and warm in your ignorance.
Far from turning a blind eye, the US supported Saddam, as did a lot of other countries who did business with Saddam. The common people are treated as expendable pawns by leaders on all sides, no one can claim moral superiority here.
Male cow manure!
Ok, you've made a claim. Got some data to back up that claim?
male cow ? you mean hermaphrodite bovine ? i get it you mean bovine hermaphrodite shit.
(not you eric, i replied to jkutz)
I was under the impression that that was part of the reason the Allies went into Iraq - to stop all that killing
BOY ! Did you drink the Kool-Aid !
Fact: Last major killing of civilians was immediately after Gulf War I, when both the Shia in the south (with elements of the Army) revolted as well as the Kurds in the North.
The Shia rebellion in the South (they expected US aid and did not get it, so they were massacred) was quite bloodily put down, but it had been quiet for over a decade when we invaded.
The Kurds (with US & UK air cover) defeated what remained of the Iraqi Army and set up an independent (not international recognized, so no embassies, UN seat, etc.), democratic "Kurdistan". Been in operation for almost a dozen years when we invaded. Kurdistan did have an terrorist training base next to Iran with an old 707 for practice. But that was our Kurdish allies, not under control of Saddam.
The border between "Kurdistan" and Iraq was relatively quiet (US/UK air cover helped). The revolt in the north succeeded and there was about as much shooting between the 2 factions in Kurdistan and between them & Turkey as between Iraq and their rebel provinces. (Have you noticed that Turkey keeps sending in divisions to invade Kurdistan for a couple of days recently ? The US Army just lets them through and does not stop them).
The widespread killing had stopped a dozen years BEFORE we invaded.
Put out a fire when there is yard high grass growing on the charred rubble. That was the USA's moral justification (it worked for you and others that do not pay much attention to foreign affairs).
It was distinctly unhealthy to criticize Saddam (or even tell jokes about him) but that is the normal suppression that one finds in brutal dictatorships around the world (many supported by the USA).
No, We did not STOP the killing, we STARTED it !
Alan
BTW, there is true genocide going on in Sudan. Millions being killed. Where are the US Marines ?
Oh, Sudan only pumps 350,000 barrels/day and they are near peak. Sorry, don't bother.
Jon, I don't read every post here at TOD but yours is the first that I've read that has mentioned that American troops might be involved in mass-killings in Iraq. Did I miss something?
As for who IS responsible for those civilian deaths, it is hard to say because the White House and the Pentagon seem to be having a hard time deciding. First, it was "Al-Queda," then, it was "disaffected elements of the former regime." Later, there was some (begrudging) admission that there might be some sort homegrown insurgency involved. I think its fair to say that a lot of folks are involved in the bloodshed in Iraq.
Recently, the US has taken to arming Sunni tribesmen in hopes that they will be an effective counter-force to the "Al-Queda" elements operating in Iraq. This has the Shia-dominated government in Baghdad nervous, for obvious reasons. Maybe the US doesn't have an official policy of creating the pre-conditions for all out civil war in Iraq. But, if they did, I think it would be hard to come up with a better policy than the one that they have blundered into.
International law and the UN hold occupying nations responsible for the well being of occupied citizens. Therefore the US is responsible. We invaded with no plan for the occupation, ignored warnings from real experts on the region about the powder keg Iraq represented, thought we could do it on the cheap, and reaped this reward. Yes, the US is responsible, and I was against it from the beginning due to all these concerns. We never prepared for reality.
Plus, I think I might be able to guess what the incredible disappearing billions of US dollars (in cash) has bought. US cash, brought to Iraq, mysteriosly 'lost'.
Sonic, I wasn't sure what sort of perspective on the Neo-Con agenda that you might be looking for. I put together a short list of quotes that, I think, support my personal dislike of these people and which have caused me to question both their motives and their general sanity:
Are war related deaths worse than medical incompetance related deaths or drunk driving related deaths ?
Y E S !!
Especially innocent civilians deaths ! They are a greater tragedy, and have more value, than combatant deaths.
Yes, an 11 year old Iraqi girl killed in "collateral damage" or as a victim of the civil war that we ignited has more value than that of a Detroit ghetto kid or Nebraska farm boy that volunteered.
And the death of a drunk driver is hardly a tragedy (a net social good even ?). And anyone that drives in the US (including me for my few miles) willingly and knowingly accepts the risks involved in driving our streets and highways. We are not completely innocent victims.
Best Hopes for a more moral view of the world,
Alan