POLL: Theoildrum.com readers and food growing...
Posted by Nate Hagens on December 21, 2007 - 8:46pm
Topic: Miscellaneous
Tags: food, home grown squash, poll, TOD readers [list all tags]
After reading the comments on Jason Bradford's post today "Does Less Energy Mean More Farmers", I noted, as in the past, the number of knowledgeable agricultural comments in the thread. I'm curious as to the breakdown of TOD readers and time spent growing food.
Here is a Poll and open thread on the topic...Also 2008 grains made multi year highs today Dec 08 corn closed above $4.60 a bushel. Beans at $11.
I'm having Galeux D'eysines squash tonight(yes thats really what they look like) with brown sugar, half and half and cinammon (I grew only the squash...)
Here is the Poll (same link) and questions:
1)- 75-100% We are largely self sufficient.
2)- Over 100% - but we sell it all to the open market and use the money to buy our actual food
3)- 25-50% - We grow a fair amount but still need to supplement it
4)- 5-10% - We have a small hobby garden and it supplements our grocery store trips
5)- Absolutely zero. My time is better spent trying to make money and buying food. Comparative advantage and such.
6)- Less than 5%. But I would grow some if I had more time, space or experience
7) Absolutely zero. What are all you doomers going to do when the oil runs out and the world doesn't come to an end?
My wife has a vegetable garden where she runs up our water bill drowning cucumbers, lettuce, and tomato plants.
What are all you doomers going to do when the oil runs out and the world doesn't come to an end?
The world will still be here, though under the scenario you imply, civilization assuredly wouldn't be.
We have a medium-sized garden (20'x80' in raised beds with companion plantings and cold frames) from which we obtain about 10% of our nourishment, though we also raise and sell lambs (about 2 dozen/year), hence our total output would be equivalent to the 25-50%. Sheep 'fertilizer' makes the garden flourish to an extraordinary degree. Over the last two years we've completely redone the landscaping, planting 45 disease-resistant fruit and nut trees following permaculture (edible landscaping) principles. Collected rainwater provides a large portion of the needed water through a drip irrigation system. When these trees begin producing, our own level of self sufficiency will reach an equivalence of around 75% (as we will continue to 'export' much of our produce).
The world will still be here, though under the scenario you imply, civilization assuredly wouldn't be.
Thanks for knocking the stuffing out of the "anti-doomer" straw man.
Unfortunately, the acronym TEOTWAWKI leads to misconceptions. People conveniently forget the AWKI.
So when people snidely say, "The world won't end," I reply:
"You got that right. We should be so lucky. The world's going to still be here, and we're going to have to deal with it."
Now that's doomerism.
Growing your own food is the same argument as the food-miles concept.
I guess it all comes down to the following question:
Yes, I would like to hear at what world million bpd do large numbers of people start dying of calorie malnutrition in the United States or Britain or Italy?
I don't expect that to happen to substantial numbers in Western countries.
I also do not expect financial panics to prevent investments in substitutes for oil.
What I want to know: how many nuclear reactors would we need to build for fertilizer manufacture to replace the fertilizer we now make from natural gas?
That's not really the issue is it? People suffer from hunger and malnutrition in the US right now and there are plenty of calories. The real question is this - how many of us trust that the *economy* as we know it will be there, and that we will remain among the rich and priveleged people who always have enough money to buy food and medicine, shoes and dinner? The reality is that most ordinary people in the world are comparatively poor, and sometimes run into those hard choices - that the rich world mostly hasn't (and that mostly is an important note) is a product - of cheap energy. So if we choose not to have gardens, we are betting our lives that we're always going to be rich, that our pensions and kids will be there for us in old age, that we'll never experience an impoverishing medical crisis, and that we'll always have security. That seems like a risky bet to me personally.
Sharon
I have a difficult time answering this because I specialize in vegetables. Though I may participate in growing enough veggies for 20 families, and am mostly self-sufficient in veggies, my family has to purchase everything else: dairy, meat, grains, legumes, sugars, oils, and luxury items (e.g., coffee, tea and chocolate).
By the way, a totally righteous looking squash.
That was my biggest upside surprise this year - i grew 9 varieties of squash. Frankly they all taste the same when mixed with butter and brown sugar but I didnt know that - Ive eaten 1/3, have 1/3 cooked and frozen and 1/3 still in 'squash' form, in the garage, where it is slightly above freezing...they should last at least another month or two
Here's a great recipe
http://www.elise.com/recipes/archives/001439spicy_pumpkin_soup.php
good with any winter squash
"i grew 9 varieties of squash."
a local asian restaurant grows food practically in their parking lot. they grow all around the property in a very urban environment. he grows chinese(or asian or hong kong I forget) squash that doesn't touch the ground and is about 2 feet long.
Try making soup.
Your storage is probably *way* too cold. "Putting Food By" says to root cellar winter squash the same as pumpkins, which it says should be in dry air at about 55 F. "Root Cellaring" says the same, but acorn squash like it a bit cooler, 45 to 50 F. Both say that at temperatures below that you'll get chill damage; probably first soft spots then quickly rotting. The damage may be done by this point, but do yourself a favor and get them out of that cold fast!
Well please tell me how to get rid of squash vine borer!!
Our squash yields have collapsed the past few years because of the #@$#@$ things. I've tried to excise them from the vines with a knife - the only solution was growing squash in manure so that it can outgrow the buggers (for a while anyways).
I just microwave the squash and eat it raw. Acorn is nice but buttercup is best - firm, dry and sweet. Butternut with sautee'd onions and garlic makes a great soup.
Squash cookies - 1c buttercup, 2c whole wheat flour, 1/4c sugar <1/4c choc chips, 1tsp baking soda, 1tsp baking powder - 350F for 15 min.
Our best squash always seem to be the volunteers that get into the soil via the compost - not the ones we start indoors and keep safe until the frost is over!
We've found that injecting Bt into the hollow of the stems works well. They sell "garden syringes" for this. I buy a pint of Bt Kurstaki concentrate every few years (I have a bottle of Bonide "Thuricide" Bt in front of me right now.) When I see frass, I inject diluted (per instructions) Bt into the stems every few feet. This is completely organic BTW, and you don't have to bury the stems afterward.
You can also spray the Bt on the stems early in the season and hope that the larvae eat some as they're burrowing in. This takes more time, since you have to do it after every rain and you may still have to inject. However, it takes only a few minutes per week and may solve the problem.
Another good method is to just wait until after the borers have flown in your area. (That's part of the reason your volunteers do so well.) You might even plant a single squash to throw away and after you see the frass, plant the rest of your squash. The adult borers only fly for a few weeks and then they're done for the year. That means that covering up the plants during that time fram so that the borer can't get to them would also work. The borers don't look at the calendar to decide when to fly, unfortunately, so you have to have a bait plant or leave it on for a month or so to be sure.
Oh, and make *sure* you get rid of any borers at the end of the season. Vines must be either composted well or burned. We chop ours up into 2" chunks to compost or just put them in our city composting bins. It doesn't hurt to stir up your beds that had squashes to look for pupal cases, either.
Thanks for the BT advice. I'm also going to try succession plantings next year.
We got the borers something awful in central Texas. They don't seem to have such a short season here. I tried the Bt method but apparently just don't have a feel for how to do it. Or the bottle of Bt I bought was no good. Sometimes we can get a few fruit off of them before the borers kill 'em off though.
i just did a little reading on the local "coyote gourd" or more commonly known "buffalo gourd" and the seeds are edible, and the stuff's a weed here. I think I'm going to snag a few next time I drive by a local patch of them and plant the seeds around our lower lying land here ..... the gourd is basically poisonous, but makes a decent soap if you have no other, the seeds can be roasted and eaten, and the dried gourds can be used to make things. And, you can do stuff with the root - get starch or brew white lightning lol.
The seeds, the way the stuff grows so well with no attention, and the way the dried gourds can be made into things, are enough reasons for me.
You mean this cucurb. It's one of my favorite native plants here in central Texas.
And probably also the natural reservoir of those ^%$&$%%! squash borer moths.
Thanks for the link to the borer, what an interesting looking bug! If I didn't know it's a moth, it'd fool me into not messing with it, since it does look like a wasp. But looking closer, it doesn't have a thin waist, and it has "tail feathers" instead of a sting.
I'm going to be on the lookout for those and "frass" on coyote gourd plants to see if they're around here.
I've never seen anyone consciously grow the coyote gourd around here, it just grows here and there as a weed. And it does well when everything else is struggling.
I haven't actually noticed any damage on the buffalo gourd plants I've examined. It just seems that the borers find our cultivated squash so quickly there must be some natural source of them. I think the wild gourds are quite resistant to that sort of attack -- non-hollow stems for example. And being poisonous probably helps.
The tuberous root of the buffalo gourd allows it to survive a hot dry spell long after most of the other non-succulent plants have died or gone into diapause.
Growing those might not be a bad non-agricultural post peak business, given lack of other petroleum based items and our cultural addiction to more
praetzel,
Be thankful if you don't have carrot root maggot, their life cycles seem to be continuous starting in mid spring to mid fall. Looking at the life cycle of that moth of yours, a covering of remay cloth, for the month I read they were active, might help.
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/2153.html
We like to prep our Butternut or Acorn by slicing them into 1/4"-3/8" slices, then coating them with oil or butter. Try not to slice your fingers off though! Then just cook them on cookie sheets. Goes with almost any meal and makes for great snack food the next day. Oh yeah, almost forgot my favoite part, leave the skin on and coat it too as it can be very tasty and not tough at all (depending on the squash}.
I really liked these 2 food related posts. Led to something very positive in the comments. Well done!
I grow a few sets of zucchini but I love sweet potatoes more.
I usually bake them but they are good fried.
A new recipe suggest cutting them into spears and baking them then dipping in a apricot sauce. Haven't tried it yet.
I have my sweet potatoes sitting in my living space. They need the warmth to further cure and this way I can keep my eyes on them. Ditto my dug potatoes. With these two items and shelled corn plus some combined wheat(soft red winter) I think I could survive til next season if everything shut down today.
I am planning on building an outdoor Pompeii type Italian outdoor oven. This will wean me from gas/lp. I will put it in my enclosed back porch. I also must brought 3 wood burning stoves for the same reason.
I was going to vote 75-100 but as yet I still buy some items yet I am about 80% for full time shutdown. I have a few more projects first..such as a full blacksmithing setup with charcoal and gathering piles of scrap metal of which I already have a large amount.
I have been a blacksmith for the last 30 yrs but my anvils and forges left with the last auction. I am starting over but it a far different direction this time. This will be my main means of surviving in the hoped for barter system.
I was going to put a shower in my new living quarters but decided that its not necessary and a waste. My grandparents never had them. In the summer when one perspires you can use a simple garden hose and its already heated by laying in the sun.
I am gathering up a large used satellite dish to make a solar collector and then check out the stirling engine so the heat can run it and power blacksmithing tools such as grinder,lathe,drill etc.
airdale
airdale
Hi Airdale,
Grew a few sweet potatoes up here on the B.C. coast and they came out much nicer tasting than the original seed potato I bought in the vegetable aisle of our supermarket. Cheated though, grew them in the greenhouse.
I think I could survive where I am too if everything shut down but I might have to eat my next door neighbour to do it. Just kidding, he is much to old and stringy but I might have to use the garden he hasn't bothered with.
One thing I am preparing to do this year is to buy large quantities of seed and freeze them (using a desiccant to dry them first). One can keep seed for long periods at a reasonable price if buying from a seed producer that caters to commercial growers. I am going to try Johnny's Seeds this year as I have heard good word about them and one can buy in quantity.
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/default.aspx?source=google_johnny_s_seed_e&gc...
Seeds in a can
Survival Garden Seeds #10 Can
Seed Varieties Included in Each Can:
1 Sweet Garden Corn -- Golden Bantam 5 oz.
1 Pole Beans -- Blue Lake 5 oz.
1 Sweet Garden Peas -- Little Marvel 10 oz.
1 Carrot -- Scarlet Nantes 6 g.
1 Onions -- Utah Sweet Spanish 10 g.
1 Cabbage -- Golden Acre 10 g.
1 Swiss Chard -- Lucullus 8 g.
1 Beet -- Detroit Dark Red 8 g.
1 Winter Squash -- Waltham Butternut 6 g.
1 Tomato -- Ace 55 VF 3 g.
1 Zucchini Squash -- Black Beauty 6 g.
1 Lettuce -- Barcarolle Romaine 4 g.
1 Pepper -- Yolo Wonder 5 g.
1 Radish -- Champion 10 g.
1 Spinach -- Bloomsdale Long Standing 10 g.
1 Cucumber -- Marketmore 76- 8 g.
Totals: 659 grams of Open Pollinated Non-Hybrid Vegetable Seed
*Non-Hybrid seeds can be collected from the crop after harvest and used the next season for replanting. Many store bought seed are "hydrid" varieties and will not produce their own seeds.
http://www.nitro-pak.com/product_info.php?products_id=1340&osCsid=8db954......
and sprouting seeds don't need to start in jars; they can be planted...
http://www.captaindaves.com/shop/sprouts.html#109
Errr, Ummm, Hmmm...Nate, looks for all the world like coprolite. Heres hoping that it tastes better than it looks.
You need more choices in your poll. I voted number 1, completely self-sufficient, although that's not completely accurate. I produce more than I need May-October and sell the excess. Similarly I have excess milk and yogurt when my cow is lactating which I sell, but buy dairy products when she is dry. And I have excess eggs to sell in the spring and summer but buy eggs in the winter months. Also we always buy things we can't produce like sugar, cooking oil, white flour, etc.
My gardening efforts have been meager and little supported by others and little rewarded.
But I sense a change in this.
The squirrels in my neighborhood have enjoyed the fruits of my gardening labors almost as much as we have.
The squirrels eat blossoms and fruit.
So ... squirrel-proofing will be high on my list of gardening tasks.
We're growing great peppers, bells and anaheims, plus some potential Serranos from a bush I rescued and brought inside, inside the house. The Bell plant and Serreno plant are both amazing producers.
We feed the birds because birds are cute etc etc but I can imagine eating them, especially the doves, in hard times.
No one grows anything around here outside of a greenhouse. Hard freezes in May, hail the size of golf balls, winds 50 60 even 80 miles an hour, even the greenhouses take a beating.
The Indians here gardened, horticulture'd, and hunted/gathered of course. Acorns were a big crop although of course no one will touch them now and I have reasons to believe the good eating ones are gone, either trees harvested for wood or diseases killed them off. The little ones around here are nasty.
This is just not natural farming country. Way too harsh.
Fleam, the indian method of processing the acorns to make them edible was somewhat complicated. First they washed them many times and let them stand in water a long time, occasionally changing the water. Then they ground the acorns into a powder and threw them away...And ate the acorn shells.
The best way to eat acorns might be via ducks or pigs. If you can get the shell off for them, ducks LOVE acorns. I'm sure pigs do too, and I doubt that you even need to shell it for them. People here in Appalachia used to just let their pigs free-range in the woods. While they mostly fattened on the chestnuts back in pre-blight days, I'm sure they also ate a fair amount of acorns.
Shagbark hickory are the ones that produce edible nuts.
Other hickory nuts can be bitter. I haven't found any sweet acorns as yet but haven't tried.
I picked a bunch of the hickory nuts but haven't cracked any yet. This is what I read. If you google it you will find that hickory nut juice and syrup is very very expensive and highly prized by chefs.
The indians made hickory nut milk out of the nuts and cooked with it. Again said to be extremely delicious.
Shagbark are common in my woods. Some call them Scaly Bark.
The nuts this year were quite large and very few worm activity.
airdale
I never had Hickory nuts until I bought my property. Hickories aren’t as common in Northern Illinois as in the southern sections of the state. They are very delicious and they are now my favorite nut. I have some very nice large Hickories on my property and they make up about 20% of the large forest adjacent to me. I found a very choice Hickory tree specimen on the side of the road down from me sitting by itself next to a field with no other tree for hundreds of yards. It has very large nuts with great flavor. I was the only one collecting nuts from it. I took about 40 nuts to stratify them in the fridge to plant this spring in nursery binds. I know it will take a long time to produce nuts, but the tree the nuts came from was only about forty feet high and producing nuts by the bushelful. Hickories that are cultivars are discovered, not bred. I might have found a unique one hiding in plain sight. I just ordered some Pecan trees from Nolan Tree Nursery in Kentucky for planting this spring to shade the house and provide an additional source of nuts. I also ordered an American persimmon and a choice Hickory cultivar for shading my house and as a source for future grafting material. This nursery stock is adding up. But I think of it as a very long term investment.
That sounds a lot like the community garden where I have a plot. In the early season, the ground squirrels have a voracious appetite for tender greens. I will know things are starting to get serious when the animal rights advocates are outvoted by those who seriously want to grow food and don't mind lethal means of control.
A good compromise is to get a few of the small Havaheart traps and relocate the critters. Or, as I said before, maintain a community garden cat - provide it with food, water, shelter, and vet care, but give it free range of the gardens. The ground squirrels will soon find other places to be.
Really all you need is a pellet gun and a good frying pan. This method works for all small varmints and your neighbor's cats as well :-))
(When even so backward a place as Bullhead City Arizona is enacting a leash law for cats, the writing is on the wall for these songbird-eating pests.)
I have three "free-range" cats, and have never seen any evidence of their having caught and ate any songbird. They do have high hopes, I'm sure, but I've belled their collars, and that is enough to tip off all the birds.
My cats have caught PLENTY of voles and mice though, and do a good job of keeping my garden clear of these.
You keep your pellet gun well away from my guys!
Hm, I have a "catserole" planned if I can catch any of the feral cats around here, yours included although I think you're far away enough that it's not a problem.
Come on over for "fried chicken" someday though!
Cats are a plague.
Un-neutered ones certainly are a plague. Mine have been "fixed". And they are not ferral, they just prefer life outdoors, which is fine with me.
He he he.
We were hardening what few squash we managed to grow and one of those 2#$@#$%! squirrels found that there were seeds inside a squash. Within an hour everything we had was decimated; and then they weight after other gardens in the neighbourhood.
I went vegan - but I'm starting to wonder what squirrel tastes like because they go after my pears, apricots, peaches, plums to boot.
Squirrels are very tasty; especially prepared in a stew with dumplings. I ate a lot of them growing up which may be why I am a little 'squirrely'.