Is Relocalization Doomed?: A Response to Staniford’s "Fallacy of Reversibility"
Posted by Prof. Goose on January 23, 2008 - 11:00am
Topic: Demand/Consumption
Tags: agriculture, biofuel, food prices, peak oil, relocalization [list all tags]
This is a guest post by Sharon Astyk, a very small farmer whom the biofuels companies have yet to offer to buy out, and a writer with two forthcoming books about peak oil and climate change, one (Depletion and Abundance, Fall '08, New Society Publishers) about appropriate responses for families, and the other (A Nation of Farmers, Spring '09, same publisher) about food and agriculture. Her writings can be found at http://casaubonsbook.blogspot.com .
Stuart Staniford's latest opus has taken a shot across the bow at those who advocate Relocalization and de-industrialization. Embedded in his argument is a compelling critique of the prospects of certain parts of the Relocalization analysis. Staniford shows his customary brilliance in analyzing the ways that the biofuels response is likely to overcome impetus towards Relocalization.
But that profound analysis is embedded in a paper that contains some serious errors of reasoning and misrepresentations of the Relocalization movement that I think deserve critique. And his final conclusion, that this should put an end to all hopes of Relocalization deserves some further consideration.
Is it true that peak oil as Staniford put in another post “puts paid” to the notion of Relocalization and local agriculture? Regardless of the answer, I think most of us should be grateful to Staniford for raising an important central issue – the way the biofuels response to peak oil raises agricultural prices and its effect on land prices. But let’s ask some questions about some of the other content Staniford ties his argument to.
1. Are there really peak oil thinkers who can justly be called "reversalists?"
This might be a useful place to start. Staniford creates this term, he says, to describe anyone who believes that peak oil will result in a change away from a highly technological society. He says:
So I think the argument of the relocalization advocates essentially is that, since we were using a lot less energy before we were industrialized, and our population was primarily agricultural then, and peak oil implies we will have less energy in the future, or at least less liquid fuel, then it must be the case that the agricultural population will grow again. In other words, having coming come down the curve in the graphs above from the top left to the lower right, our society will now start to retrace its steps back up the curve.
This implies that the process of industrialization and development is a reversible process. We in the developed world have evolved from low-energy high-agriculture societies into a high-energy low-agriculture society. So the thinking goes that we can/should/will reverse that process and go back to something like what we were 200 years ago (at least on these large macro-economic variables).
He goes on to observe that a “reversalist” is anyone who thinks we might go back to any older, way of practice, including people who think we will need local playhouses and acoustic instruments. Apparently, those who wish to reverse the course of history are only those who want to do so in low tech ways – those, for example, who advocate new nuclear power plants, a technology that was described as increasingly obsolete and unlikely to be used until the advent of peak oil, do not seem to be included. That is the difficulty of coining new words – until they are established it can be the devil to figure out exactly what one means. Those ambiguities mean that new coinage is most valuable in cases where there is no appropriate term. Is that the case here?
In fact, there are several existing terms for people who believe in returning to older models – “relocalization” is the word coined by the groups themselves, but “agrarian” would be quite accurate in regard to agriculture, and also the world view. The agrarian movement is a worldwide phenomenon, which might argue for its particular relevance here. Although the term “luddite” in its origin does not actually mean “technophobe,” neo-luddites, including plain religious groups have to an extent embraced most of the notions encompassed by Staniford’s “reversalism,” and, of course, there’s the term “anti-modernist” – particularly apt in the case of Kunstler, whose critiques are as much aesthetic, and tied to a larger critique of modernist cultural movements, as they are practical.
So why “reversalist?” Generally speaking, when there exist several perfectly adequate terms in common parlance, the only reason to coin a new term is that you are either unfamiliar with the existing ones, or because you wish to subtly or not so subtly change the associations that go with the idea. “Reversalist” which Staniford ties to “wishing” and “nostalgia” is overtly pejorative, a move that I personally would not have associated with Staniford. My hope is that this move was unintentional.
Why focus on this? Staniford invokes his own training as a scientist in his essay. I will only invoke mine as a scholar of language and narrative – the way we tell the story and the words we use shape our thinking. Staniford has a history of unbiased analysis, but this post is overladen with the language of bias in ways that I think are intellectually unproductive.
Besides my doubts about the value of the term “reversalism,” I would also note that the grounds on which Staniford describes relocalization advocates as “reversalists” is sufficiently inaccurate to render the category meaningless. Staniford’s claim is that the primary grounds on which relocalization advocates make their case for more farmers and de-industrializing agriculture is upon a correllative analysis that says, as he does above, “we once had less energy and more farmers, so we will have less energy and more farmers in the future.” This is simply factually untrue, for at least several of the people he names. For example, Staniford mentions The Community Solution here – utterly ignoring the fact that Pat Murphy’s (the author of the paper Staniford cites) primary influence in his analysis of the agricultural system is the case of Cuba. I am quite familiar with Murphy and the Community Solution’s work, and I’ve never seen any sign of the analysis that Staniford claims is the grounds for their reasoning.
Richard Heinberg, on the other hand, has made some rough associations on that hand. And for the purposes of full-disclosure, the essay that Staniford cites, “50 Million Farmers” was influenced to some degree (I don’t know what degree) by my own work on this subject, and I’ve made correllative connections between past use of energy and future need for farmers. I agree with Staniford that this is a weak argument, and entirely insufficient to support the claim that relocalization is a positive future move. But the truth is that neither I nor Heinberg rest the whole or even a large part of our argument solely on that bit of data – nor does any relocalization advocate I’m familiar with.
What Staniford leaves out is the fact is the power of present-day models of collapse in the thinking of most so-called “reversalists” – Cuba, North Korea, the Soviet Union and to a lesser extent Argentina, America in the great Depression, WWII food restrictions – all of these are referenced in the notes to various of Heinberg and Murphy’s arguments on this subject, as well as present day developments in the Global South. I am less familiar with Kunstler’s representations on this point, so it is possible that Staniford is accurate in regards to Kunstler but at a minimum, instead of a large cadre of “reversalists” Staniford is down to one.
I admit, I personally believe that Peak Oil thinkers have over-relied on the case of Cuba, and have paid insufficient attention to, for example, the Soviet Union’s collapse, which more closely parallels the US, and I think that reliance is open to analytic critique – but it is not a critique that Staniford has made, and cannot be attributed to him. Instead, he’s ignored the reliance on other sources entirely.
Staniford’s representation of the central argument of those of advocate tranforming the agricultural system, thus, is quite inaccurate, a strawman that he has little difficulty knocking over. But, of course, dealing with the weakest possible case for any analysis reduces the merits of the analysis. So we come to the next question,
Is there a fallacy of reversalism? Staniford goes on to distinguish between reversible and irreversible material processes, and to ask whether industrialization is “reversible.” Now there are several problems with the question Staniford asks. The first is again linguistic – it is a matter of opinion as to whether a shift away from an industrial model due energy supply constraints and other related difficulties (remember, I’m aware of no relocalization advocate who believes peak oil will happen in isolation from climate change and other forms of depletion) would constitute “going backwards.”
Staniford clearly believes it does, and says explicitly in his conclusion that those who he dubs “reversalists” are guilty of shoddy thinking, wish fulfillment fantasies and nostalgia. These are severe critiques of bias– Staniford is clearly more familiar with the personal motivations of Heinberg, Murphy, Kunstler, Darley et al than I am myself, and he may well know these things to be true. I can only observe that he offers no evidence for this deep understanding of the motivations of others.
But what I can observe is that Staniford presents us with a false dichotomy – the choice between going forward or “reversing” to 19th century style farming. But there is no inherent reason why the readoptation of an older practice constitutes a reversal on the scale Staniford argues for – for example, the growth in organic agriculture (a million acres a year with the last data I have, although that preceeds the biofuels boom and may be less now) in response to consumer demand for a safer, more nutritious food supply, might be characterized as “reversalism” – after all, the practices of organic agriculture are generally centuries old. And yet a highly technological, industrialized society has moved gradually to a growing portion of its agriculture using such backward practices – and demand for organics continues to grow.
The truth is that definitions of what constitutes “backward” or “forward” are very much a matter of preference. Since most of the techniques being advocated, at least by Heinberg and Murphy, are those refined in the 1970s and developed into the present, many are quite cutting edge – for example, the further refinement of efficiency per acre by biointensive agriculture (that is, the ability to use human labor to maximize the total productivity of a piece of land) might be equally well described as progressive. The same could be said of small scale, largely organic polyculture, which has been proved to increase total food output – and continues to be refined in nations in the Global South where land access is difficult and people must be fed on increasingly tiny pieces of land. I am aware of no relocalization advocate who in any sense advocates a return to 19th or 18th century style agriculture. They advocate a larger number of people on smaller farms, which is similar to older style agriculture, but they also advocate the use of agricultural techniques that are progressing quite as quickly as cell phone technologies. Many of them, including Heinberg, imagine the use of tractors and combines included in the model and are quite specific on this point.
Moreover, and this, I think, constitutes the deepest weakness in Staniford’s construction of the “fallacy of reversibility” despite Staniford’s claim that industrialization cannot be reversed, we have quite a few examples of exactly that process occurring in recent history.
So when you industrialize a society, is that a reversible process? Can you take it on a backward path to a deindustrialized society that looks in the important ways like the society you had before the industrialization? As far as I can see, the "second wave" peak oil writers treat it as fairly obvious that this is both possible and desirable. It appears to me that it is neither possible or desirable, but at a minimum, someone arguing for it should seriously address the question. And it is this failure that I am calling the Fallacy of Reversibility. It is most pronounced in Kunstler, who in addition to believing we need a much higher level of involvement in agriculture also wants railways, canals, and sailing ships back, and is a strong proponent of nineteenth century urban forms”
Interestingly, Staniford never quite answers his own question about whether it is posible to “reverse” industrialization. He moves on to the signs he asserts we would see if deindustrialization were a logical consequence of peak oil (more on that in a moment), but he never definitively states (but rather implies) that industrialization is not reversible. This is probably a good thing, because, of course, we have several contemporary examples of highly industrialized societies reverting to a lower level of agricultural technology and centralization in recent decades. Cuba, of course, is the most famous in the peak oil community, but the Soviet Union also did so – Soviet gardens and small farms are widely credited with saving the population from starvation. Dmitry Orlov discusses this in his forthcoming book _Reinvening Collapse_, but this has been widely documented – peasant economist Teodor Shanin, for example, describes it in a New Scientist interview: http://environment.newscientist.com/article/mg17523546.300-how-theother-... (note, the complete article is behind a paywall), and the Rodale Institute published data at the time in the mid-1990s showing the influence of small farms and gardens on the diets of millions of Russians and other former Soviet peoples (Organic Gardening, June 1996). There are other, perhaps less apt examples in Bosnia and Serbia and in various African states of a process of moving back (or forward) to a less industrial society.
Using recent historical examples, I think it is literally impossible for Staniford to make the case that agricultural practice cannot reverse to engage more people on a smaller scale. However, he leaves these completely untouched in his analysis. But it seems self-evident that such a “reverse” in fact can happen. Whether or not the US or other parts of the rich world will follow suit in the coming decades is a matter for debate and too large a question for this article, but the answer to Staniford’s question about whether industrialization can reverse is a resounding yes, which I think deeply undermines both Staniford’s claim (made in the paragraph above) that none of the supposed “reversalists” have even thought about or addressed this question, and also undermines the grounds for his establishing that there is such a thing as “the fallacy of reversibility.”
Which brings us to the next question. Staniford offers up five signs that he claims we would expect to see in the industrial agricultural system if relocalization advocates are correct, and then bases his argument that we will not reindustrialize on the fact that we are not seeing signs of any of these. But in order to evaluate the validity of Staniford’s critique, we need to move on to the next subject,
-Are these the right questions to be asking?
That is, is it necessarily the case that we would expect to see the particular signs Staniford identifies? Is Staniford looking at the right indicators? Or are these more strawmen? Are there other questions we might ask that would yield different answers? Staniford says,
My central tool for looking at the question is going to be the factors going into the profitability of industrial agriculture. If it's the case that agriculture is going to revert to a manual low-energy process in the face of peak oil, then that should show up in the profitability data. Here are some natural predictions we might make:
· Industrial farming is less profitable at high oil prices than at low oil prices.
· Now that we are at, or close to, peak oil, industrial agriculture is beginning to show signs of strain, indicating it may break down in the future, allowing alternative approaches to take over.
· Industrial farmers use more labor in the face of high oil prices.
· Farms are starting to get smaller now that peak oil is nigh.
· In developing countries, where the farmers never unlocalized in the first place, the dynamics are changing to favor small subsistence farmers over larger mechanized operations.
As we shall see, the evidence doesn't provide any support for any of these propositions, and in fact it tends to provide at least some evidence for the opposite view: the industrial agricultural system appears to be strengthened by peak oil, and is likely to get stronger still in the near future. Rather than industrial farms losing money, land prices dropping, and desperate farmers loooking to throw in the towel and sell out to the hordes of neo-peasant reversalists, we find farm incomes rising, average farm sizes increasing, and no sign of greater use of labor in the production of the core arable crops in the US.
I think there are two deep problems with the questions that Staniford chooses to ask. The first is what I’m going to call “the fallacy of overtly linear thinking” (just for the purpose of identifying a cool fallacy). And it might best be illustrated by analogy.
Let’s suppose a patient goes to a doctor, complaining of a severe inflammation and pain in one finger. The problem turns out to be an MRSA anti-biotic resistant infection. The first treatment that the doctor would suggest is probably a course of antibiotics, perhaps several such courses, when the first fails. Thus far, the treatment has been linear – the first step, a milder antibiotic, leads then to a next step on the same basic order, a more aggressive or specific antibiotic, and then perhaps to hospital admission and IV antibiotics. But let’s say the patient doesn’t get better, and the infection begins to move up his hand – instead of just one finger, the whole hand is infected, and then his arm, and the patient is now very sick, and the patient’s life is now endangered. The doctor, having exhausted their course of available antibiotics, may then have little choice but to suggest the amputation of the hand or even arm, in order to save the whole patient. On the face of it, this would seem to be a radical departure from the first course – but only on the face of it. The patient and his family are probably shocked that amputation is a possible outcome – they’d never thought something so radical might be necessary to solve the problem. To the doctor, the treatment *is* linear – his overarching goal has been to save the patient with minimal suffering and loss. As long as it seemed possible to save the finger, he tried to do so, when it stopped being possible, he cut his losses, and concentrated on keeping the patient alive. A radical shift in response to a progressive situation is linear, if the overarching goals are kept in mind, but it isn’t necessarily the linear step someone who isn’t looking at the whole would expect.
A backwards analysis of the doctor’s course of treatment might ask “but why didn’t he immediately amputate the finger upon the discovery of the infection.” But a situation whose severity is not immediately self-evident doesn’t necessarily call for such radical measures. But that might be a legitimate case should the patient die (as 20% of all MRSA cases do), or require an amputation of the whole hand or arm rather than a finger – perhaps it would have been wiser to immediately amputate. In the case where an appropriate antibiotic response is found, amputation might be an over-reaction – it is difficult to know what the appropriate response is, and ultimately, we must judge based on interpretation. One doctor might choose one course, another a different one given the same data.
Much of Staniford’s critique seems to be based upon the idea that relocalization is a radical alteration from the ways that society is presently responding to peak oil, and I think that’s an accurate description. The relocalization advocates roughly parallel the doctors who would argue that a patient ought to have an early amputation of the infected finger, shortly after the first course of antibiotics fail. They might argue that the costs of the more aggressive form of treatment are lower than the potential losses, and there is, indeed, a case to be made for that point of view. If a Soviet-style collapse is forthcoming (a topic for another paper), it would be better to decentralize agriculture sooner, to convert to lower energy technologies, and to teach people to grow food in their yards. If, however, no such “reversal” is forthcoming, cutting off a finger would seem unreasonably unlinear, and the choice to consider more aggressive antibiotics might make more sense –but also might entail more risk.
What Staniford portrays in his opponents as ignorance of the real issues, is, in fact, a legitimate disagreement about mitigation techniques. Staniford would choose the more linear, less aggressive course, because he believes there is a strong likelihood that it will be successful. Heinberg, Murphy, Darley and Kunstler believe that we are better off taking the more aggressive course, because the potential consequences of failure (hunger, perhaps starvation) are so severe. Whether the precautionary principle is the correct reasoning tool to apply here might be debated, but that’s not the terms in which this debate has been framed. Instead, we are to see it as inevitable that early societal responses to peak oil would look logically continuous with later responses, when the crisis is more severe. In fact, as many commentators pointed out, this discontinuity is part of the point of many analyses of peak oil.
I also believe that Staniford here mistakes the reasoning of relocalization advocates. There may be those who believe that industrial agriculture will simply devolve on its own – for example, Staniford quotes Kunstler saying something that sounds rather like it, so it is possible that Kunstler does make this case (I have not re-read _The Long Emergency_ recently enough to speak to this). Still, I think it is worth noting that _The Long Emergency_ is not merely about peak oil, but about climate change and economic woes as well – that is, the “reversalist” tendencies that Staniford attributes to Kunstler’s desire to go back to the past might also be attributed to Kunstler’s prescience about the urgency of climate change – Kunstler’s call for sailing ships, for example, comes in the context of his analysis of climate change – his claim may not be so much that we cannot cross the ocean any other way but that we *should not* do so, given the contribution to anthropogenic global warming (Staniford’s analysis omits any consideration of global warming, something none of the other thinkers he mention do – I think this is an important observation – accepting that global warming is an urgent problem means accepting that besides the question of *availability* there are issues of whether we should choose more energy intensive solutions over less intensive ones – for example, one possible limitation on biofuels would be mandatory limitations on nitrous oxide, which are created by industrial agriculture).
But Murphy, Heinberg and Darley are also all *advocates* for a practice. None of them claim that deindustrialization is necessarily inevitable, but that we ought to alter the shape of agriculture, rather like amputating a finger, in anticipation of a larger crisis. Staniford implies that they imagine that peak oil will in itself make this an inevitability, and all of them are perhaps guilty (as am I) of assuming that doing so will be helped along by peak oil. I cheerfully admit that I had not, until Staniford performed his remarkable analysis in “Fermenting the Food Supply” fully understood the implications of biofuels for relocalization, and I would place bets that none of the others have done so, either. In fact, I’ve not encountered anyone, including Staniford himself, who wasn’t “floored” by the implications of Staniford’s remarkable analysis.
Staniford has undoubtably done the peak oil movement an enormous service, and created a genuine and meaningful critique. It is unfortunate that this critique, valuable in itself, is cloaked with logical errors and a misunderstanding of the reasoning of relocalization advocates – it would be a far stronger case divorced from them.
But Staniford, I believe, has sometimes mistaken *advocacy* for *description* in the habits of relocalization thinkers. That is, Heinberg, Murphy and Darley are arguing that we should deindustrialize agriculture in anticipation of a larger crisis, because advance planning puts us ahead (for example, in Cuba, the average Cuban lost 20lbs in the early stages of the special period – I certainly could afford to lose 20lbs, but my small children and extremely thin husband could not – thus a strategy that creates greater redundancy in the food system would be attractive to me if collapse seemed likely) of the game – potentially avoiding the problem of making a major transition in the throes of a major crisis.
It is not that any of the above agrarian advocates believe that industrial agriculture will magically disappear (although as I noted above, the may well have underestimated its tenacity), but that step should be taken to make it do so. Staniford acknowledges this briefly, when he quotes Heinberg’s “50 Million Farmers” essay, which claims that we must deindustrialize rapidly, observing
“I have to say that I really don't like the sound of "at a forced pace, backed by the full resources of national governments". As JD, of Peak Oil Debunked, noted recently there is a history of attempts to forcibly reallocate land to urbanites: it's mainly been attempted by dictators, and the results have made the countries in question bywords of disaster (Cambodia and Zimbabwe are examples in recent decades).”
I can understand and share Staniford’s distaste for this idea – in fact, I suspect (I am speculating here) that even Heinberg has some distaste for it. He discusses his own dislike of centralized solutions in _Powerdown_ noting the irony of creating a strong centralized government that must then give up power. Personally, I am not convinced that doing so is the right course. But I do think it worth noting that non-dictatorships have also used the forces of government to move people back to the land – during World War II Britain, for example, the “land girls army” was moved through national programs to take up agricultural production, and, of course, the history of America’s move to industrial agriculture could accurately be described as something done “at forced pace, backed by the full resources of national governments.” That is, there is ample historical evidence that we can change our agricultural patterns without moving inevitably to fascism. It is not inevitable that using government to change agricultural policy would end in a Zimbabwe by any means.
But more importantly, I believe Staniford has missed the point that much of what relocalization advocates are arguing is what they believe should happen, rather than what will inevitably happen, in the absence of political will and in the hands of market forces. Staniford is absolutely right that the sheer profitability of biofuels will mean that the use of political and social movements will be much harder, perhaps even fail. This is something relocalization advocates must take into account in future analyses (I will offer some preliminary thoughts on this below, but I think Staniford’s analysis will give us much to chew over for some time). But it would be inaccurate to imagine that relocalization advocates imagine that we would now be seeing the unravelling of the corporate food sytems without a powerful counter-movement.
The other difficulty implied in the above points is that they are somewhat circular in their reasoning. That is, Staniford implies that if relocalization were going to happen, it would be happening now. The reason, as he has demonstrated, that it is not happening is (among other factors) the growing profitability of biofuels as a powerful counterforce. If relocalization is to have any success, it will have to be with a political response to biofuels, such as the high tax on biofuels that Staniford himself proposed in “Fermenting the Food Supply.” Staniford observed that in fact, it is not necessary that billions of people be starved, that other options are available. And yet, Staniford here is implying that relocalization can never be possible because biofuels will make it impossible. If Staniford has an analysis that suggests that even in the circumstance of heavily regulating or constraining biofuel production, this will still be true, I would be interested to see it.
The truth is that relocalization advocates would not expect the above points to be the case, because biofuels growth is a fact. As I’ve observed before, I think Staniford is genuinely the first person to play out the full implications of biofuels growth for relocalization, and this is an essential point, but it is not true that the long term future of relocalization is inevitable given the short term growth in biofuels, which, as Staniford notes, will have to be regulated for more important reasons – avoiding millions or billions of deaths by starvation.
The truth is that biofuels are operating as a counter-factor to relocalization, in Staniford’s own analysis. But just as those who critique M. King Hubbert’s analysis often observe that he predicted a peak in 2000, not 2005 or later, the counter argument to that is that the 1970s oil shocks represent a meaningful counter-force, that pushed off the inevitable. I agree with Staniford that perhaps many figures in the peak oil movement may need to make a stronger case for the inevitability of an agricultural collapse – I think this is an important observation. But it is also worth noting that we have examples of short-term counterforces shaping the history of predictable progressions.
One more point on the limits of Staniford’s predictions of what we would expect to see. The third point above, in fact, that “industrial farmers use more labor in the face of high oil prices,” seems to me a complete error in reasoning on Staniford’s point. That is, I can’t imagine any circumstances that would lead the relocalization advocates listed to believe that at this stage in peak oil farms would be using more labor – we are neither at a point of food shortages that require maximum total food output per acre nor are we at a point where energy prices have risen to compete with labor costs. In no sense has anyone I’m familiar with proposed that farms will begin gradually taking on more human labor early in the game – not only because oil prices have not risen high enough to make human replacements cheaper, but also because of agricultural volatility. That is, a move to human labor requires not just that it be cheaper to employ people than to buy equipment, but that farmers believe that this will continue to be the case, thus encouraging them to sell or not invest in mechanical equipment. Just as oil price volatility perverts our response to peak oil, the volatility of agricultural markets (a factor of peak oil), and the sheer speed with which the agricultural markets have changed over the last two years would give no incentive for such a move. Thus, this would most likely be a very late factor in the process, and I think operates as a red herring here.
I do want to be clear again in indicating that I think that Staniford’s analysis, which amounts to the point that unfettered growth in biofuels is seriously damaging to the chances of relocalization is both accurate and brilliant. For all that I believe that this is not one of his best articles, I do think that this is a deep insight, and one that will affect the discourse on this subject.
Staniford clearly demonstrates that the trend is towards the consolidation of corporate agriculture’s power. And at least one of the “reversalists” agrees with him. I happened to correspond with Richard Heinberg on the subject of Staniford’s original article, “Fermenting the Food Supply” and his immediate response was this, "It's true that if policy continues to support biofuels, re-localization (which is the only sensible survival strategy) will be smothered in the crib, meaning that we have no survival strategy. That's why it's so important to shift policy away from support of biofuels" (quoted with permission).
Like Heinberg, I agree with Staniford on this point – I have written on this subject several times, not primarily in regards to biofuels, but about the likelihood, even in the absence of biofuel growth, that during a period of economic crisis early in the peak oil movement, industrial food producers will benefit. That is, I have argued that small scale, local farmers, who depend on the disposable income of middle class consumers will lose their clientele, who will shift their business at first to Walmart and to other industrial organic (and as they lose the ability to afford even that, industrial conventional) food sources. Although I wonder, if, as biofuels drive up overall food prices, low input organic agriculture in areas not attractive to biofuels producers might not profit from higher food prices, to some degree mitigating this effect. Again, the implications of Staniford’s analysis are complex, and this is merely a first response.
Are there other questions that might get us a different picture?
This essay is already quite long, so I’m going to limit myself to simply one suggestion about approach here, with the caveat that I do not fully know what such a data analysis might reveal.
I believe there are a number of questions Staniford might want to consider if he pursues this issue further, many of which (water depletion for example) are major factors (while only 1/5 of all US agricultural land is irrigated, 3/5ths of India’s grainland and 4/5ths of China’s is - and China is already showing significant reductions of its ability to produce grain – Lester Brown documents in Plan B 2.0 that over 7 years between 1998 and 2005, the Chinese grain harvest dropped by 34 million tons – more than all the wheat produced by Canada and is tied directly to water shortages (Brown, 44-48).
Soil depletion, and the loss of available arable land, which Staniford himself mentions when referring to Jason Bradford’s analysis of whether Mendocino County in California can feed itself, is another issue.
The reason I mention this point is because I think the means at getting at evidence of agricultural decline is rather like the means of getting at the Saudi oil peak – that is, indirectly. If we accept the principle that soil, like any other natural resource, can be drawn down slowly or rapidly, but does have a point of no return (or no return without enormous investments of time and organic material) – and there is no real doubt that it does, since desertification and salinization are major factors in the loss of arable land – we must then accept that just as it is possible to increase rates of extraction for some time. Matthew Simmons, in his critical analysis of the Ghawar, relied not primarily on reduced oil outputs to make his (extremely accurate) predictions of the Saudi oil peak, but on the rate that outside inputs (seawater pumping and extraction technologies) were used to keep the system going. This allowed him to predict the Saudi oil peak in advance of actual decline – and to estimate that rates of decline would be quite high, because the faster we extract resources, the steeper the eventual downslope.
Thus, my own suggestion would be that a further analysis would look not for overt signs of decline (which generally are not there yet – China being a notable exception as above), but for signs of increased draw down. That said, however, this is merely my own suggestion., rather than a critique in itself.
Is Relocalization Doomed?
Does the sheer strength of this trend mean that Staniford’s overarching conclusion, then, that Relocalization is a lost cause, is true? Staniford draws a strong conclusion,
“…And in the developing world, another important factor comes into play. As we discussed last week, over half of all households in rural areas in developing countries are net food importers, even though the vast majority are involved in agriculture somehow. Thus, rising food prices will place tremendous stress on very poor households that grow some food, but not enough to live on. They may be forced to sell their land to larger landholders that produce a surplus. Thus, we may see the exact opposite of what the relocalization movement might predict - farm sizes in developing countries may increase in the face of peak oil.
In Conclusion
I've argued in this piece that industrial agriculture is likely to be stronger and more profitable when oil prices are high, not weaker. So the reversalist future of local food production on smaller farms with higher labor input will not come to pass as a result of peak oil. The industrial agricultural sector owns most of the land, and will be in an excellent position to increase their land holdings as remaining subsistence farmers fail or consolidate in the face of high food prices. Industrial farmers will have no reason to sell out to improverished urban dwellers. Thus the industrialization of the land is not a reversible process any time soon - it is a fallacy to think so. The reversalists are expressing wishful thinking and nostalgia for the past, not a reasoned analysis of how the future is likely to play out. And urbanites worried about their future should not be looking to buy or rent a smallholding as a solution to their problems - industrial farmers are extremely efficient, and there is no way to compete with them except by becoming one.“
Again, I fear Staniford is right about the first point – there will be powerful incentives in both the developing world and the rich one (rising land prices means higher farm taxes, which small farmers are unlikely to be able to manage) for small farms to be devoured by large ones. The short term, biofuel ruled future is most likely one in which forces are pushing us in the opposite direction of Relocalization.
But that does not mean that Staniford’s conclusions are fully justified. Because, after all, Staniford’s earlier articles about biofuels make it absolutely urgent that we regulate and limit biofuels growth, because, as he himself has demonstrated, a large portion of the population is likely to starve otherwise. It is true that this might not happen, but I suspect it will, simply because there is likely to be an enormous outcry, and because the implications will not be limited to the developing world. Already 12% of the US population is regularly priced out of the food market, and that number seems to be growing. Anecdotal evidence, for example, from a Boston Globe article: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/10... about malnutrition in small children because parents can’t afford to buy both food and heating oil, is an example of this. The reality is that American consumers, who have to cut buy both gas and food are likely to be increasingly squeezed, and malnutrition bellies on American children are likely to be a powerful political motivator. Moreover, it is possible to postulate that even the malnutrition of children in the Global South will motivate change, as I’ve argued here, in response to Staniford’s first article: http://casaubonsbook.blogspot.com/2008/01/three-billion-dead-future-of-b...
In his first article, Staniford articulated that the biofuels problem was most dangerous in the near term – I agree, that in the near term, it is very likely that the political and social implications of biofuels will be so great that they may overpower some portion of Relocalization efforts – certainly any plan to reallocate farmland. Other efforts in the Relocalization bag of tricks will probably become even more important – gardening and small scale subsistence farming, or neighbor to neighbor sale will probably be far more urgent than we have ever predicted, as more and more lower income people find themselves squeezed and in need of inexpensive food. Some small local farmers in regions that are not attractive to biofuel producers (that 1.3 energy return seems to depend on reasonable proximity to a production plant – we could drop below 1 EROEI transporting potatoes from northern Maine to plants in New York, for example) such as my own might well profit – that is, overall rises in food prices may benefit small scale organic farmers who can now compete with the grocery stores. For example, in my own region, local dairy farmers with a reasonable land base are now growing their own grain for their cows, and still reaping the benefit of high milk prices based on those who are buying corn in competition with ethanol producers.
But let us consider the longer term, in which the future could look rather different due to a number of factors. The first would be political solutions to the biofuels debacle, which, raise the price or legally limit the number of acres in production, making biofuels less profitable. That is, the boom could turn into a bust rather rapidly with farmers who expanded rapidly having to unload land whose tax prices haven’t descended as rapidly as the price of corn. This would open up access to farmland.
It seems unlikely in the extreme that Relocalization advocates in isolation could have any major influence on policy, but fortunately, Staniford himself has made the case for a large scale political response – the death of millions or billions to hunger is likely to marshall many groups into political responses, and the Relocalization movement is likely to find itself with a large number of political allies – indeed, it already has some of them.
It is difficult to evaluate the likelihood of a collapse due to either peak oil in isolation, or as most of the “reversalists” imagine it, due to a concatenation of factors, including peak oil, climate change and economic instability. I certainly do not claim to be qualified to do so – or to make any other claim other than that we know from observation that some highly industrialized societies do, in fact, “reverse” course. But it is worth noting that a collapse might well overturn the rush to biofuels. Capital constraints, for example, might make it difficult to build new plants, even if such an industry is generally potentially profitable. Generally, societies in deep economic crisis do find it difficult to borrow money – and might find reasons to borrow money for other projects than ethanol production. It is true that such cannot be taken as an inevitability – but there is a case to be made (and again, out of the scope of this article) that a collapse is a real possibility, perhaps even reasonably likely and that we will lose less if we use the precautionary principle to begin preparing for one now.
And in a collapse situation, there seems to be reasonably good evidence that Relocalization is a useful strategy – that is, home gardens and small farms did keep Cubans and Russians from starving to death in times of great societal disruption and shortage. In the comments section of this essay, Staniford asks this question,
“Could you lay out the scenario of a) how much the available oil supply falls in percentage terms, and how fast, b) what aspects of societal infrastructure fail roughly when as a consequence of that, and c) why a small relocalized farm close to markets (ie cities) will be better placed to survive these infrastructure failures than a large industrial one far from cities.”
In the less than 24 hours since I’ve read this essay, I have yet to come up with a good answer to #1, in part because I am not convinced that oil will be a sole factor in this situation. That is, the move to Relocalization might be initiated by climate change related constraints on industrial food production (and it is worth noting that in fact, according to Bill McKibben’s Deep Economy, generally speaking, energy used in agriculture is a tiny portion of the whole – the 2.2% that Staniford cites does not take into account, say, the fact that it takes 10xs as much energy to get a package of frozen peas into your freezer as it does to grow them, or 7xs as much energy as is contained in the food to get a box of breakfast cereal on your table – which might be the beginnings of an answer to part C of Staniford’s question (McKibben, 65)), or political ones that interrupt the flow of oil in a collapse situation.
Moreover, I make no claim to be an expert on this subject – and I think this usefully illustrates the distinction between what Staniford at one point describes as “first wave” peak oil thinkers (those who are primarily concerned with rates of depletion and geological facts) and “second wave” thinkers (who Staniford inaccurately characterizes as “reversalists” and whose major characteristic is that they think that peak oil might not be best described by narrow bad economic and scientific analyses, but by larger considerations of historical, political and ethical principles in the context of that data).
It is clear that Staniford, as a scientist, strongly prefers the work of the first wave, who deal with concrete, describable and predicatable conditions, over those second wave thinkers who deal with messy issues like politics, historical analogy, moral arguments and other things that are difficult to quantify. But that preference does not inherently mean that the one is better than the other. It is true, however, that attempting to deal with many unquantifiable variables will always make the solution of those who do not exclude those variables more ambiguous and subject to critique than those who can narrow the terms of their analysis to suit themselves.
The second wave of analysts, of which I flatter myself to be one, don’t just use less concrete forms of analysis, part of their implied (and in my case explicit) argument is that peak oil, or really the concatenation of peak oil and climate change that no one has come up with a better term for that “the long emergency” is precisely more complex than can be managed with quantitative analysis – that is, that it is rightly the question of those who are willing to risk the censure of the first wave by describing this issue in historical, political and ethical terms. I think this is an enormously important point, because Staniford does not seem merely to disagree with the use of this approach in this particular case, but to be making an overall attempt to tar the second wave with a brush of heavy bias, poor scholarship and unseriousness, while emphasizing the implied impartiality (because it is quantifiable) of the “first wave” style of analysis, with which he associates himself. Shortly after he accuses the “reversalists” of nostalgia and believing something simply because they wish it to be true, Staniford asserts his identity as a scientist, with all the cultural associations of impartiality that implies.
But as we have seen, Staniford’s analysis has anything but his customary degree of impartiality, and is heavily larded with errors of reasoning and biased language, that distract from and partly taint his larger argument. The notion that the first wave analysis was more quantifiable is indubitably true. That it is a better tool is debatable, but Staniford does not make that argument, he simply implies that it is true, embedded in an argument that is itself, I think a compelling example of why relying on readily quantifiable data is insufficient to describe either what human response will be or what it should be. That is, we need both forms of analysis – neither is sufficient unto itself.
All of which is a long way of saying that I haven’t the faintest idea what oil price or decline we would have to have in order to achieve a collapse situation that made Relocalization inevitable. Since I don’t claim it is inevitable, and neither does any other peak oil thinker Staniford describes, with the possible exception of Kunstler (again, I simply am not familiar enough with his work to judge), I can’t answer the question. I do think that a response to the biofuels crisis might change the circumstances, and I do think that historical evidence suggests that in times of economic collapse, small scale farming and gardening might be a necessary response.
But let’s try and draw out a scenario in which Relocalization might be a necessary response. We don’t have to imagine one, we might look at the collapse of the Soviet Union. Dmitry Orlov’s forthcoming book (which I’ve had the pleasure of reading an advance copy of) does a careful analysis of the common ground between US and Soviet systems – it is certainly possible to argue with his claim that they are in many ways equally vulnerable (or that the US is more vulnerable), but let us, for now, accept that this falls within the realm of possibility. To support this position, let us note that in Yegar Gaidar’s (former interim prime minister of the former Soviet Union) recently translated book _Collapse of an Empire: Lessons for Modern Russia_, Gaidar argues that in fact, much of the crisis in the Soviet Union was caused by the Soviet push to urbanization. That is, the Soviet Union allowed itself to become reliant on imported food, while engaging in social policies that moved farmers into cities, and when the economy collapsed, and bread prices rose dramatically, bread riots spread social instability. If one were broadly construing Gaidar’s argument, you might suggest that the Soviet Union collapsed because it had too few farmers. This, of course, is an oversimplification, but it might add some useful fuel to the fire. It also might limit the value of some of Staniford’s five listed principles – because, of course, in the case of the SU, an advance sign of collapse was, according to Gaidar, the increasing urbanization of the population and a reduction in the sheer number of farmers.
So one might propose a Soviet-style empire collapse. Or perhaps simply a crisis as simple as one the Lester Brown describes in _Plan B 2.0_.
“The first big test of the international community’s capacity to manage scarcity may come with oil, or it could come with grain. If the latter is the case, this could occur when China – whose grain harvest fell by 34 miilion tons or 9 percent, between 1998 and 2005 – turns to the world market for massive imports of 30 million, 50 milllion, or possibly even 100 million ton so grain per year. Demand on this scale could quickly overwhelm world grain markets. When this happens, China will have to look to the United States, which controls he world’s grain exports of over 40% of some 200 million tons.
This will pose a fascinating geopolitical situation. More than 1.23 billion Chinese consumers, who had an estimated 160 billion dollar trade surplus with the United States in 2004 – enough to buy the entire U.S. grain harvest twice – will be competing with Americans for U.S. grain, driving up U.S. food prices. In such a situation 30 years ago the United States simply restricted exports. But China is now banker to the United States, underwriting much of the massive U.S. fiscal deficit with monthly purchases of U.S. Treasury bonds.
Wihtin the next few years, the United States may be loading one or two ships a day with grain for China. This long line of ships stretching across the Pacific, like an umbiliacal cord providing nourishment, will intimately link the two economies. Managing this flow of grain so as to simultaneously satisfy the food needs of consumers in both countries, at a time when ethanol fuel distilleries are taking agrwoing share of the U.S. grain harvest, may become one of the leading foreign policy challenges of the new century.” – Brown, 14-15
What happens if trade agreements we made when we were flush with spare food and economic pressures do result in the starvation, not merely of far away billions, but of Americans. In the Great Depression, Herbert Hoover famously said, “At least no one has starved” outraging people as reports began to pour in of real starvation. When 25% of all Chicago school children were suffering from malnutrition, and mothers rioting in the streets because they could no longer afford meat or milk for their children, we were ripe for social change – social change that those who have an existing strategy for getting food to the people might participate in. I do not claim this will work, merely that the possibility is worthy of consideration.
I would also note again that Staniford’s analysis does not include climate change at all – it is possible to imagine a number of climate related scenarios that would push the US into various sorts of crisis – extended drought or flooding in the Midwest, combined with other natural disasters (not so very hard to imagine after this last year) or an international agreement to minimize emissions (biofuels, which nitrous oxide is included in the analysis, produce more warming gasses than oil does).
It would require a much longer article than this already very long one to detail other possible scenarios. But it seems to me self-evident that Staniford may simply not be asking the right questions here, in a whole host of ways.
Later in the comments, Staniford argues that Relocalization has no potential benefits for those who practice it – but it seems self-evident that hungry people do find small scale agriculture and horticulture to be deeply valuable to them. That is why gardens proliferated in Moscow (where, according to the Rodale Institute, at the height of the collapse 65% of all households were involved in food production) and in Cuba.
I believe Staniford here may be mistaken in his understanding of some of the claims of the Relocalization movement – it is possible that some of the figures he mentions actually claim that all food in a relocalized future will come from local regions. That is, it may be the case that Staniford believes that those who advocate Relocalization are implying that every area must feed itself or starve. But in a fairly serious review of the literature (brief by necessity to get this response completed), I cannot find any such passage. And I do not believe that this is the central claim of Relocalization advocates. Certainly, I would not suggest it. Nor does the food sovereignty movement, begun by Via Campesina, from which Relocalization derives some of its ideas.
That is, I believe the “tractors or hand labor” question to be something of a false dichotomy. There are regions that will never feed themselves – but Relocalization is a valuable strategy because it offers redundancy, access to food for those who have insufficient income to buy it, and a host of other benefits, including fresher, better tasting food, access to agrarian landscapes for urbanites, etc… I’ve written about the limitations of, say, the 100 mile diet model here – there are a number of regions whose foodsheds will not support them, and others that will support more than their present population. I do not claim that peak oil will be the end of all trade, nor have I seen such a claim (although I may have missed it) by any of the so-named “reversalists” – indeed, the cessation of all trade seems highly unlikely. What seems more likely (as Staniford’s analysis in itself suggests) is that poor people in both the rich and poor world will be priced out of food markets and need to grow as much food as possible.
A form of Relocalization will likely exist even if the biofuels revolution proceeds to its worst outcome – indeed, it will have to, as people take over greenspace, use their lawns and otherwise grow food anywhere they possibly can to compensate for calories they cannot afford to buy. Oddly, the proliferation of biofuels may settle the (good natured, not very significant) debate between Heinberg and myself about whether 50 million or 100 million farmers are required, with the larger number. That is, if biofuels and related growth push food prices high enough, we may well end up with a vast majority of the population having little or no choice but to grow some food to compensate, to take up their role as farmers (in my own case, the definition of farmers is very broad, including subsistence farmers and gardeners) on a larger scale than would have been required without the biofuels boom. That is, we may find that the biofuels boom leads to a vastly larger number of very small farmers, rather than fewer larger (but still smaller than the industrial model) ones as Heinberg proposes.
My own conclusion is this – Staniford has done enormously valuable work in analyzing the threat that biofuels poses to Relocalization, and he has also done the important work of providing the Relocalization movement with a more potent critique than has thus far been leveled at them. That is, Staniford has offered an analysis that will require me and I suspect others to refine our analyses, to address questions like how likely political work is to succeed and timescales for collapse more directly than we have. In this, the analysis has been enormously useful, and admirable.
Less admirable, however, has been Staniford’s attempt to take his analysis further than its own merits can stand – to make a general argument delegitimizing the analyses of agrarian thinkers and also of what he calls “second wave” peak oil thinkers in general. These arguments are weak and tainted by bias, and do him little credit. Staniford is one of the most powerful intellects we have turned towards the problem of peak oil, and his commitment to clarifying the peak oil discussions is a gift to the community. I am in no way diminished in my admiration for Staniford. And yet, I think we would have been better served had Staniford limited his critiques to what the data can support.



"Apparently, those who wish to reverse the course of history are only those who want to do so in low tech ways – those, for example, who advocate new nuclear power plants, a technology that was described as increasingly obsolete and unlikely to be used until the advent of peak oil, do not seem to be included.
Nuclear technology is the most modern technology we have for power generation, so in technological terms, using this in place of fossil fuel driven generation could hardly be desribed as a step backwards. In other words, Stuart would not have included these people as reversalists, because they clearly do not come into this category. If anything, they would be something more akin to technologists.
Why do you call nuclear 'The most modern'?
As an energy form, it is particularly recent, and yet what is really 'modern' is the new developments in any of our technologies. Wind and Solar are being researched and advanced continuously, even though we've used the energy from the Sun for our entire history. Is that old or new? Many of our reactors are quite aged now, and it would seem that they are Aging in an accelerated way, with the stresses of the energy that they are asked to contain.. so are they old or new?
'The candle that burns twice as brightly burns half as long. And you have burned so very brightly, Roy." - Tyrell, Blade Runner
I think Sharon made some very good points about the complexity that Staniford glossed over in that label of 'Reversalists'. That terminology was a clear oversimplification, with the implied taunt that by advocating any 'Classic' solutions that didn't support the big-biz hegemony would tar you with the newest euphemism for 'Backwards' or 'Hippie Dreamer' or whatever.
The thing I wonder about with the increasing consolidations of Energy Co's, Big AG, Pharma, Banking, Media.. etc in the last few decades is how much that 'trend' is merely the inflating of a lot of 'Dinosaur-shaped' Bubbles, which will suffer and fracture again due to inflexibility and other kinds of topheaviness.
Bob
If you look at my profile, you will see that I am a researcher in wave energy. I am optimising generators. These technologies are not new, and date from the time of the last oil crisis, they have merely undergone refinment from their initial design principles which were never carried on when the funding dried up.
"Why do you call nuclear 'The most modern'?"
To further clarify this comment, wind power has been used for centuries, in ships and windmills, it's a small step to connect a generator to these. Also, I don't have the referece, but the first wave energy device was proposed i believe, but not built, in the 1800s. Renewable energy technology is merely the refinement of an old idea. The high technology comes in when you want to make them economic.
By contrast, nuclear fission has only been understood relatively recently, hence it is by far the most modern.
You seem resistant to considering the idea that while some of our Reactors, as recent as they are to HUMAN history, are today a couple generations old and facing 'Advanced Decrepitude'. They are now OLD sources in terms of the 2008 Energy Supply.
As a solution to our present energy situation, they are not at the head of the list (speaking of chronology, not priority) not the new kid in class, as ways have been developing to make other sources both increasingly economical, and less politically objectionable. In that conversation, Nuclear is not a NEW item on that agenda, and it's advocates are not the Avant Garde. They are an 'established' and 'historical' provider. This is the point Astyk seems to be making as well.
Meanwhile, the US installed 5gw of Wind Capacity last year. That's by all rights NEW, even if it's an age-old power source. Are proponents of Windmills and Solar Panels 'Reversalists' or 'Technophiles'? The point is that the term is overly vague, and most likely divisive.
Computers are 'New' and 'Modern'.. but if you're running Win3.1, you are clearly a wierdo who is stuck in the distant past. Right?
Bob
I'm not resistant. Nuclear fission is more modern than fossil fuel based technology. I don't see how you can argue this. I'm referring to the technology, not individual reactors. I'm aware that time passing makes things age.
I'll try again.
Advocating for the 'Resurgence of Nuclear Energy Development in the US' would be a 'Reversalist' position, since we've had a full generation's lull in New Reactors. It's an OLD position in the energy choices we face. It's soo 1960. Is that what makes it a bad (or good) choice? No,
The AGE of the technology does not describe its usefulness. IF Nuke is really right, then MAYBE we should 'Go Back' to building that out. IF wind is right, then let's GO BACK to that.
Calling someone, ANYone who wants to 'go back' to a previously discarded approach some kind of euphemism of a 'Retard' is unhelpful.
Bob
Actually, in the case of photvoltaics you have this backwards. Fermi built a pile in 1942. The transister was invented in 1947 by Shockley, Bardeen and Brattain. Nuclear power is a much less sophisticated means of power generation, as can be seen from the term pile. It's tolerances are mainly to do with the extreme hazards. The tolerances for PV are actually much higher owing to the need for extreme purity of the semiconductor (eight nines). Only recently has it seemed possible to relax these a bit. However, the development of PV promises much better EROEI compared to nuclear power and much reduced safety issues. That PV appears simpler has more to do with the greater elegance of the physics compared to the rather crude production of dangerous mid-mass radionuclei involved in fission.
Chris
Crobar;
Sounds like you do neat work.
There are just lots of 'New' and 'Old' aspects to everything. It's not just the technology, that might be old and get renewed- or the source, recently considered archaic, but 'rediscovered' and reapplied in a New Model. Just consciously making a change, even if it's to something our Dads left behind, like using a Pushmower (to get some 'cardio') or eating real Butter and Dairy delivered from a local farm, instead of 'Modern' Margarine and Soymilk-food-product from Monsanto, the act of choosing a change in how you do business is a Move Forward, which is muddied by the devaluation of terms like 'Reversalists'.
Putting sails on Cargo ships would be a move Forward, not back. They could still be using Bunker Oil when needed, could have their radars and GPS of course.
Bob
crobar -
I happen to have a side interest in ocean wave power and began looking into it in some detail about four years ago. I even dabbled with an idea of my own, which upon further analysis turned out to be of dubious value.
The conclusion I sadly came to was that ocean wave power will never be more than a highly location-specific means of generating electricity. The locations with truly great wave power potential are not particularly abundant and tend to be away from highly populated areas. While ocean waves generally have a much greater power density than wind, their highly variable and oscillating nature makes the extraction of that power a daunting and very expensive endeavor.
However, the Pelamis people seem to be having some success, and I'd like to see them and other make a go of it. But it's going to be a long uphill battle.
I'd describe wind and solar as old, and there are people here that I've already seen agreeing with me. Nuclear, by the other side, is the last discovered source of energy we have.
It is bad that this response don't focus on the weak parts of the article's argument (and there are some), but, instead, keep arguing about language. Reversionism was quite well atdefined at the original article, and it does no good to include prejudice (political correctness is a form of prejudice) in it.
The problem is that Stuart (Intentionally or not) DID include prejudicial or leading characterizations in his definitions of 'Reversalists', which quickly set up a negative value-judgement on that label.
'..Advocates of Electric Trolleys and Banjos..'
Come on! That's 'belittlement through cuteness' and a very weird set of associations. I guess I'm alright if I've got a Combine and a Stratocaster, but fie unto me if I'm seen intown with my Prius and the Sousaphone and Cornet in the backseat. (That's my Dad, BTW) With that comparison, he made his views of Electric Light Rail completely clear. Noone could miss the message, could they? So what makes them Backwards and inappropriate technology, which is the implication? He wrote an article on that a year or so back, with much the same dismissing of the potentials of Transit Oriented Development, and how unlikely it was, since the trend wasn't moving that way.. Predictive Graphs, feh!
Wind:
Yes. It's 'OLD'. This is the point. Does that make it backward? "Reversalist?" If wind were just blowing the Other Direction, would that make it properly 'Forwardist', and hence, properly Modern? Actually, its 'ReNEWable'.. Old AND New. The wind blowing this morning is NEW wind. Today's power.
I believe that the term that needs to be used is "appropriate technology". The discussion about which technology is new or progressive seems silly. Bicycles are a really old technology but we should be seeing more of these in the cities. As far as that goes, walking is as old as when we first stood upright but would be appropriate under our circumstances.
Whatever gets us through the day. Oh, it is very modern to sit on one's fat ass and drive one's Expedition to the store for a loaf of bread.
Well said!
I've now had, sad to say, a very 'Modern' morning. I'm walking some product downtown to one of my clients!
Bob
That point is marginal to the original argument, while it is central to the reply. That is the problem.
It may seem to be an aside from his calculations and charts, but it was used to set up a false dichotomy, by suggesting that 'The Others', this 'Fantasy Opposition' just want to live in a Sweet, Cheery Revival of 'Little House on the Prairie'. While various folks want certain aspects of life from earlier days that seemed to be workable and fun, this is all collated into some massive group of 'Reversalists'..
I listen to Bach, Ray Charles and Phish, I usually cut wood with a handsaw, and I'm designing a robot that can look for satellites (Home use only). If you want to stick a label on me, better make it a good one. No matter how good his sources were for other data, this use of describing people struck a blow to his essay's credibility. Maybe he just tossed those comments off casually.. but that's almost worse.
.. It's possible that I missed your point, however. What was the problem you were concerned about?
Bob
"The weighty issues must be handled with lightness, while the 'little things' must be regarded with a great seriousness."
Note to self - don't be facetious at TOD.
Sharon
Unless you use graphs, then it's okay.
Here's a graph that came out today.
Showing world food stocks being adequate for 54 days, a record low. You can read Lester Brown's take on it here.
I thought this quote would interest Stuart:
Chris
And this is why graphs, impressive as they look, don't tell the whole truth.
You know that oath they always get witnesses to make in courtoom dramas, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Well, the thing about statistics and graphs is that they tell the truth, but they don't tell the whole truth.
That's because a graph by its two-dimensional nature must have just a few data sources in it, while the "whole truth" must consider lots of different things, too difficult to graph sensibly. And dodgy data is often hidden in graphs, it's harder to spot than if it's just the actual data.
The whole truth about world grain production is that stocks are declining because grain is being diverted to feed livestock (the Chinese and Indians are eating more meat) and produce ethanol. Another truth is that the graph above presents world grain stocks in days as though people were eating nothing else, rather than as at the rate people are actually eating it.
Let's look at the world food outlook report from the FAO. At the end of 2007, the world had 6,600 million people and in FY 2006/7 was estimated to have produced 2,109 million tonnes of grains of all types. This is 320kg per person, providing 3,064kcal and 81g of protein daily if consumed directly; about 50% more than the average requirements of a moderately physically active adult (a Third World subsistence farmer, or a Western middle class guy who does some exercise). That is, more than enough.
However, of the 2,109 million tonnes of grain, only 997.5 were consumed directly, with 735.9 going to feed livestock, and 329 going to "other uses" (almost entirely biofuels).
Thus, what could be 320kg of grain per person and 50% more food than needed for basic energy and protein becomes,
- 151kg of grain consumed directly
- 112kg going to produce 40kg of meat
- 50kg going to produce 17lt biofuels
- 7kg added to stocks
which provides people with 1,892kcal and 61g of protein daily if consumed directly, just enough to keep people going.
Were there no biofuels, 329 million tonnes could have been added to world grain stocks, taking them from 427 to 756 million tonnes. Since the world consumes 2.73 million tonnes daily, the grain stocks would go from a 156 day supply to 277.
Obviously declines in meat consumption would have similar effects.
Over the past several years, per capita consumption of grain has not changed much. What's changed is that more and more goes to livestock and biofuels. While total grain production appears to be plateauing, there still remains more than enough food for everyone - provided we don't give it all to animals and put it in our fuel tanks.
The graph you give presents us with a 54 day supply. Dividing 427 million tonnes of stocks by 54 gives us 7.9 million tonnes a day, or 2,886 million tonnes annually. So your graph is claiming that world food stocks are consumed 2,886/2,109 = 137% times as fast as they actually are.
So in the first place their data are obviously wrong, as they place grain consumption at a rate 37% higher than it is. It would be like me saying that a stock of 1,200 million barrels of oil would only last the world ten days, implying a rate of 120Mbbl/day, considerably higher than the real rate of 85Mbbl or so.
Secondly, often "grain stocks in days" measure it by "if we ate nothing else, what do we have?" Which is like saying, "if we burned oil in everything, including coal and gas-fired power plants, it'd run out really fast!" Well, no shit. It seems fairer to measure "grain stocks in days" in terms of how fast the stuff is actually consumed.
Total grain consumption in all forms is 2,109/365 = 5.78Mt/day, so that a 427Mt stock would last 74 days. Grain consumption just for people directly is 997.5/365 = 2.73Mt/day, so that a 427Mt stock would last 156 days. Now, so long as grain stocks are not zero, what do they matter? Well, we like to have a reserve in case of big disaster somewhere, or sustained bad crop conditions in a country for a few years.
Say a cyclone hits some coastal country and makes 10 million people homeless, we want to feed them. Well, we've plenty for that. For large-scale climate problems - say a huge drought hits the US and Australia at the same time, reducing crops by 75% - well, then our stocks aren't enough. But then I think we'd be slaughtering livestock, telling ethanol-burning SUV drivers "sorry, no" and diverting the grain to people, yeah? Which would put us closer to the 156 days than the 74 days.
And this is why I'm never that impressed by graphs. Because often they don't tell the whole truth. And often wrong, outdated, speculative or just plain made-up data is hidden in them. As in this one.
Actually, it is based on 309 million metric tons of stock so the 54 days seems about right. I think the message is that prices are not likely to fall. Perhaps the mix up is in applying fiscal year data to a calender year report?
Chris
309Mt @ 5.78Mt/day gives us 53 days. So obviously they're using total consumption. For people's direct consumption we get 309Mt @ 2.73Mt/day = 113 days. Again, if you want to talk about "grain reserves" in a "oh no look they're dropping we could starve!" sort of way, you have to admit that in such a situation, people would divert less to livestock and biofuels, so that the actual time before we run out will be closer to the higher figure than the lower.
But in any case, the true stocks figure is 118Mt, or 38% higher than that.
In 2005/6 the end of year stocks were 471.4Mt
2006/7, 428.0Mt
2007/8, 427.0Mt (forecast)
Every year grain stocks go up and down. There are periods in the year when several major grain producers are harvesting, and periods when several are just growing. So the stocks might go from X to X/2. They obviously chose the lowest figure they could find for the year. Which would be like me with my payday on Friday telling you my bank balance on Thursday so that you think I'm really poor.
As I said, all this is a perfect example of why graphs can be misleading. For example, nothing in that graph lets us know that in fact world grain production per capita went up from FY2005/6 to FY2006/7, from 308kg per person to 320kg.
If you see a graph of world grain stocks declining, you naturally think that "oh no! We're not growing enough food for everyone!" And in fact we're growing considerably more than we need, in calorie and protein terms. Current world grain production could provide 2,022kcal and 54g protein each daily to ten billion people.
However, we only consume 47% of our grain directly, giving 35% to animals, 16% to biofuels, and saving just 2%. On that basis, current world grain production only just provides enough calories and protein overall, and certainly couldn't feed 10 billion.
In the past couple of years, the amount being consumed directly, and that going to livestock has actually declined slightly on a per capita basis. Increased grain production has gone to biofuels.
In addition, while 1,000 million people in the West are obese (more than 25% over their ideal bodyweight), 800 million people in the Third World suffer malnutrition and are at risk of starvation. Coincidence?
So, in summary, if we're worried about the world starving, the important things to know are that per capita grain production is increasing, but that people are eating less - because we in the West are gluttons, and because of biofuels.
Whereas your graph makes it look like we're all going to starve because farms are dying, or people are having too many babies, or something. Which makes the graph a load of old bollocks.
I guess I should try to make it absolutely clear that this is Lester Brown's plot not mine. I think you know that but I'm not sure I said so clearly enough originally. He does give information on where the data come from. I'm sure he'd be happy to know if there is an error, especially one in the direction you propose.
I wonder if the best use of the plot is to say that at some point we need to cull the herds if days remaining of stocks are less than the time to the next harvest. I'd like a better cushion than that if I were a cattleman I think.
Chris
If you go to the source of that calculation it looks like it's based on oil prices some time in early 2006 (ie around the $60 - $70 mark). Given that we are at $90, and will probably go higher (at least after the whole credit crunch thing is done)...
They definitely agree with your point of view. I still hold out hope that geopolitical calculations will make food aid adequate.
Chris
And, a little more news $1/gallon biomass based ethanol just came up on slashdot.
Chris
It is telling that this refutation is unable to demonstrate a single graph or piece of hard data. Stuart's article was heavily evidence based and relied on the quality of his primary sourced data. This refutation is, in comparison, an opinion piece with no real analysis.
You state that relocalisation would have "a host of other benefits, including fresher, better tasting food, access to agrarian landscapes for urbanites, etc…". This may well be true but has nothing to do with Stuart's piece which merely pointed out the likelyhood, not the desireability of relocalisation occuring. Perhaps this more clearly demonstrates some of the “wishing” and “nostalgia” inherent in the idea which you criticise him for pointing out in his essay.
ALso you point out, "I would also note again that Staniford’s analysis does not include climate change at all", this is natural, as it is an essay about the effect of Peak Oil on agriculture rather than climate change on agriculture. This is also alluded to when you criticise biofuels production. I personally am against the use of biofuels, and believe they do little to help climate change. But do I believe they will raise the price of their feedstocks? Yes. Will this result in farming becoming more profitable? Yes. Again the issue here is not whether the outcomes of peak oil are desireable, but whether they are likely. Stuart showed convincingly that relocalisation was an unlikely outcome of peak oil, regardless of whether this was desireable.
Key phrase. Qualitative arguments of desirability are likely to have poor quantitative predictive abilities.
I really agree with this. We've gone into an historical phase which has previous counterparts only at the level of an analogy. Several phases of creative reaction are necessary, and trying to imagine the whole run of them at the present moment is likely not to be successful.
Crobar
It doesn't have to be a graph or a chart to be an analysis. Opinions? Yes, and opinions supported by carefully described reasoning. Critical thinking requires the ability to form opinions.. this doesn't refute an analysis, it is central to it.
"Interestingly, Staniford never quite answers his own question about whether it is posible to “reverse” industrialization. He moves on to the signs he asserts we would see if deindustrialization were a logical consequence of peak oil (more on that in a moment), but he never definitively states (but rather implies) that industrialization is not reversible."
Her Source Data is mainly Staniford's post, while she does include some links to relevant articles to support this. She spends a good amount of time (!!) looking at his claims and assumptions, as shown above.
You go on to try to tie her comments to the same perjoratives that Staniford uses with his 'Reversalists' , calling the conclusions simply 'Wishing' and 'Nostalgia'.. guilt by association.
Bob
No, I disagree. Her arguments were essentially that localisation was good, therefore it will happen. It may or may not be good, but that will not make it happen.
"Staniford never quite answers his own question about whether it is posible to “reverse” industrialization."
I would say it is obvious that indutrialisation is very reversible. Imagine a meteorite strike or nuclear war for instance, or some other unforseen event. What I think Stuart showed is that peak oil is unlikely to cause this reversal.
I think Stuart made some excellent points about a reversal in large scale agriculture not necessarily happening because of high oil prices. I believe someone made the comment on Stuart's original post that disruptions in trade, possibly coming some time after the peak, would be more likely to cause relocalization and smaller scale agriculture. As long as communication and transportation are still functioning, large farms will have an advantage at producing commodities because they provide a higher return on management and capital. Disruption will cause relocalization, while higher crop and fuel prices alone will probably only moderately increase the number of people employed in agriculture or related businesses.
Regardless of oil prices, organic and locally produced fresh farm products may continue to grow market share because they taste a lot better.
I think the economic environment in which we find ourselves, will be the main influence in whether the trend remains towards larger (or changes to smaller) scale agriculture.
International capital flows will attempt to continue to dictate which economies do well, and which are plundered for resources. The west might soon be on the receiving end of the destructive neoliberal policies we've inflicted on much of the rest of the world.
It might be that the distribution costs of food (as it is currently distributed) are unaffordable to a large proportion of a country, they will favour eating locally produced food, and presumably will agitate for reforms to make this possible.
The alternatives for maintaining social order may boil down to either price-fixing for food goods (won't work for long), land reform, or an unthinkable tyranny.
I can see the advantages of looking at the problem from both Stuart's and Sharon's viewpoints. Although I do tend to prefer an abstract analysis, since the situation is almost too complex to comprehend - for me anyway ;)
I'm sure she can speak for herself, but this is incorrect on its face: Her post was a critique of Staniford, it was not an expository or persuasive essay on relocaliztion. She, in fact, needed not take any position at all on the issue in order to critique. As noted by jokhul above, his essay and her familiarity with the literature were sufficient resources. Where she didn't have sufficient knowledge, she stated so.
You critique of her critique has no merit. If you've something to say with regard to the post she was responding to and whether her post is a viable critique, well, have at it. You are tossing generalities, if not insults, really, without saying anything in the end. Curiously, this is what you are accusing her of.
Can you please cite specifically what she ot wrong?
I can find no invalid logic in her post. Whether one might agree with her or not is one thing, but claiming she said nothing at all that was valid is just being argumentative, imnsho.
NOTE: My first post on this topic shows I essentially agree with her critique, so you may dismiss me as biased. Feel free. But do note the time/date stamp of my post. My opinion was independently come by.
Cheers
ccpo,
I am essentially the reverse of you...I felt Staniford's post was absolutely excellent and essentially correct, but think the reguttal by Sharon Astyk was brilliant (as I intend to say in a seperate post). I still think Stuart was the more correct of the two, but I will not let that me disrespect a very interesting and intelligent argument by Ms. Astyk, who like Stuart has written an "opus" about the "cutting edge" of a set of philosophical issues that will become increasingly important to the Peak Oil community. But more about that later, right now, I am just enjoying a steller sparing match!
RC
I don't see the negative image you mean. I didn't laud Stuart's work so much as I felt the points not considered, as mentioned in my first response on this thread, made the post incomplete. An incomplete analysis is not very useful. It leads, as it has here, to a lot of time spent figuring out the merits of his post that could have been spent elsewise had he presented a more thorough post to begin with.
That said, like everyone else, I recognize the value of the post and the talent of the poster. I could not produce such an essay, so I speak strictly from the peanut gallery.
I fail to see any serious flaw in the rebuttal, however. I see it as having brought out the weaknesses in Stuart's essay quite well.
My own 2c is this: as with most things in life, there is not, and probably will not be, any one answer. Localization will occur, because it is. Cities as large as Portland, Oregon are working on such things. However, large agricultural concerns will continue, too. Cuba is illustrative of this. Its combination of localization and collective farming are probably close to what we will see (perhaps minus the collectivism, perhaps not), depending on how far, and even whether, we see disintegration of societal structures. This is why I think Stuart's essay fails: he *seems* to be grinding an ax that I see as not needing any sharpening. It's a non-issue, really. BOTH are part of our future as they have always been part of our past and are part of our present. The ratio is the only question.
Cheers
Ah, fie on me for my laziness in writing these posts :-)
This thread'll learn ya!
;)
As I've said. Great post as far as being well-written, etc., but I do think some of the critiques are on target. I want to emphasize critique here. Some of the comments on the thread have crossed over that line, I think. (I do not wish you to see my comments as such.) and the give-and-take has perhaps been a little polarizing, which I think would be unfortunate.
Can't we all just get along? ;)
I'd be interested in a fuller reply to Sharon's comments.
Cheers
In the original: "and a host of other benefits, including fresher, better tasting food, access to agrarian landscapes for urbanites, etc…"
This is precisely the sort of thing that positively begs to be seen as wishing, nostalgia, or something kindred, in a sense shared with Kunstler's writings. Especially that "host of...etc…" part, which invites unlimited speculation, some of which might be unfounded.
I grew up in New York City. Most folks tended not to give the proverbial rat's behind about "access to agrarian landscapes." And most would have had little inclination to waste hours and hours at growing a few dollars' worth of produce in a window box or even on a tiny plot on a cramped "outer borough" house-lot. To put it mildly, they weren't big on fresh fruit and veg anyhow.
Furthermore, they tended to vigorously scorn the alien notion of even considering living anywhere west of the Hudson River. They were well-acclimated to circumstances providing zero routine "access" even to an isolated farm, never mind an entire agrarian landscape. The subway simply doesn't go that far. The nearest agrarian landscape was and is some hours' drive away, across "flyover territory" best traversed in the quickest way available - by jet. Some lived and died without ever having seen one in person.
I suppose all of this will shock the rural folks (and hippies) here, and it has not yet changed one iota.
"There are some who can live without wild things, and some who cannot." (Aldo Leopold.) The stress is usually on the ones who supposedly cannot.
But, turning to "agrarian landscapes", many happily live without - and without horses and buggies (other than the tourist attraction in Central Park); without the stultifying boredom of endless hours of mindless field labor, mechanized or otherwise; without the cloistered, provincial environment of a real working farm; without the snotty backbiting and exclusion that are often the dark side of village life; and without whatever else might speculatively be included in the "host of...etc…".
There seems simply to be an irreconcilable philosophical difference between 'reversalists' and others, one unconnected to anything that can be comprehended in terms of physical or even social science. On the whole, perhaps the two essays, Sharon's and Stuart's, talk past each other and cannot do otherwise.
But what will all those people eat when the produce trucks no longer roll across country?
what magical thinking did you use to come to the conclusion that the trucks won't roll? because oil is running out?
what makes you believe we'll even use gas in trucks in the future?
We don't use gas now for trucks we use diesel fuel.
The same magical thinking that has Maine truckers lobbying Washington over Diesel prices so they can keep hauling logs, that has diesel outages showing up all over the globe, and 'we're not even in trouble, yet'..
John, you're credulousness about our ability to implement all these things we 'already know how do to', but we're just behind a couple decades.. that's Doug Henning, right there. "Magic is Everywhere.. It's a WORRRLD of ILLU-SION!"
Bob
Doc: 'Roads? Where we're going, we don't NEED roads!'
jokuhl- I'm not sure what your point is. shortages are usually not long-term and can be the result of the distortion of prices. the example is your maine truckers.
we are not behind decades. we have so much already in place- canals, railroads, sidewalks, dense cities and old-fashioned conservation and efficiency.
if you think globalization is dead because of peak oil, I refer you to the article about cargo ships simply SLOWING DOWN to reduce oil usage. there are so many ways to save oil that are inexpensive and can be used today. there are so many ways to save oil that will be used 5 years from now.
the wheels are in motion.
"shortages are usually not long-term and can be the result of the distortion of prices"
And hence, The Oil Drum!
Bob
"Let's just say we wish to avoid any 'Imperial' entanglements."
"Well, that's the trick, isn't it?"
are you implying shortages that never end? if we have shortages that never end people will stop using whatever is in short supply.
Is anyone sitting at home cursing the 150th plus year of peak whale oil? who has even heard of whale oil?
Whale oil is a dramatic, but tragically poor comparison.
What was waiting in the wings as we moved past 'Peak Whale'?
Where was coal on its trajectory at the time?
Does Oil give up it's prodigious quantities of Energy Quickly or Slowly?
Now, as we ponder the 'other side' of oil's curve, with 3, 4, 5 times the population as then, what is waiting in the wings to replace it?
If food is in short supply, just as anything else, you are right. People will, of necessity, stop using it.
I wonder if Whales can laugh.
what is waiting in the wings? we don't need to use oil to go happy motoring. we can use electricity. we don't need oil for a lot of things, although you wouldn't know about it from reading the comments here.
something doesn't have to be on the drawing board now. squeezing the oil out of our economy is a lengthy process. that is why I call it The Long Transition. rising prices will tell people not to use as much oil. we don't have to begin today or 10 years ago. we won't wake up one day and have 25% less oil production. it's a slow process. gas prices go up and people adapt. the suburbs might go for a dollar a home in 10 years, but in 30 they could be two hundred thousands dollars. homes go for $1 in some places today when they would have sold for one hundred thousand 20 years ago.
In the spirit of fraternity, and I mean that, I will raise a glass to your 'Long Transition', and say dayenu! ('It was enough').. in the future imperfect, anyhow. Would that it were..
In the meantime, I will be TRYING to prepare, both for my family, and for whatever I can do to be ready to help my neighbors weather the bumps. We might discover that the Bumps on an 'Undulating Plateau' won't be equipped with seatbelts.
Bob
"we are not behind decades..."
John, John, John!
I'm not saying we're DEFINITELY behind by decades,.. in having a backup plan, and continencies prepared to catch us or slow the fall if something bumps us off this plank that's leveraged way out over the downslope of our HydroCarbonically enhanced carrying capacity.. just that we MOST LIKELY are. Big Difference.
Yes, I believe in all those things you mentioned.. BUT, The Magical-Market Carpet Ride does not necessarily 'care' if we have enough time to change things over 'on a dime' (especially if we need to borrow that dime from a reticent lender) .. The rate of energy flow is the problem. The car is speeding, SPEEDING down the interstate, TOO fast to turn, TOO fast to jump off onto a bike, and to make matters worse, we can't see but a few feet ahead, and we are hardly bothering to do even that! Climate Change is in the opposing lane, and we think he's swerving and weaving, but it's hard to see.. but most of us don't care about that, either..
Yes, there are solutions. All sorts of them. But they're in the trunk, and some of the parts might still be at home. Requires partial assembly. Instrucciones no habla ingles. Batteries not included. No User Servicable parts, please refer servicing to qualified service personnel.
Bob
:D
Those Maine truckers are probably not a good example of anything important. Our economy is chock-full of grifters after Federal handouts. There has been no problem getting diesel for end use except at times in North Dakota. They simply need to raise their rates a little and pay the price. Over time, relative prices change; that is a normal occurrence. And it seems unlikely that the relative price of diesel is likely to drop very much for very long, any time in the foreseeable future.
If they "can't" raise their rates a little, that demonstrates that there is an easy way to bypass them and get lumber anyway - or else that nobody really values their particular lumber very much (perhaps it serves a discretionary market.) In either case there is (as yet) no great societal problem, only a personal problem. The world is not a museum, so it's not unusual that people need to find another line of work or a different way to pursue their accustomed work. There is little call for buggy-whip fabricators these days.
They need to keep reality in mind even if they do get their handouts for now. Federal largesse tends to function as a giant game of Queen for a Day. Soon enough, the media spotlight will swing to someone else with an even more teary sob story, and the handouts will follow.
They'll probably eat the grains that were carried from the midwest by barge, all the way down the Mississippi and around the coast, or up through the great lakes & Erie Canal, plus fresh produce, eggs, dairy, and meat from small farms in NJ, LI, Upstate NY, CT. Just like they did before a single well was drilled along Oil Creek, PA.
Before any oil was drilled in Pennsylvania, New York City had a MUCH smaller population.
Exactly.
"But you're underwater, you'll drown!"
"No Problem, I've got a straw!"
I believe you have hit on an important cultural distinction.
Regarding the relationship between a population and its perceptions of nature, city life, etc. this is a great subject. Marvin Harris would be a good sociologist to look into. I have done some interviews that touch on this subject:
http://globalpublicmedia.com/eric_brende_on_the_partys_over_going_local
and a recent one about Heinberg's latest book:
http://globalpublicmedia.com/transcripts/2933
Jared Diamond in Collapse also has good discussions.
What I find troubling is that a culture can become so rigid in its norms that it finds obvious solutions to its own problems so distasteful that it doesn't even dare consider them. That's what I see happening right now.
This is a point I alluded to in a comment to Stuart's original post. Our governments and big business are blinded to physical and ecological reality, and will continue to follow the beliefs of the grand religion of "economics". They are NOT going to act rationally at all, because, as you say, rational analysis and action will require a major deviation from their belief systems. Sharon kind of alluded to that with her analogy about MRSA.
They will act rationally when the reality of economics imposes it's will. people did not want to lose their homes. economic reality set in that they could not afford them and now we have massive foreclosures. I'll take economics most of the time.
People wanted a free lunch at an "all you can eat" but guess what it turns out you have to pay. Tough luck eh. I'll take economics when someone shows you can get the infinite out of the finite.
Paul, the 'Fresher foods and Access to Pretty Farmlands', if you'll look at your own quotation, was simply an addendum, 'a host of other benefits'.
The reason our family and many of our friends buy from various CSA's, local dairys, get shares of local meats, use farmers markets, etc, is in large part to eat more nutritious and fresher produce, as it's become clear that this is actually important for our health. Be that as it may, we are also very conscious of the vulnerabilities of having all our food be subject to a National Economic Supply Chain, to Diesel fuel, to Road and Weather Conditions that are beyond our control.. and a host of other dangers, you might say.
It makes perfect sense to work towards and to invest in local food production.. to make a concerted effort to allow local farms to succeed, both as a reinforcement of localising your money, as well as making sure your food sources are resilient and accessible. Your Hippy fantasy is just that.. it's a fantasy, and it's yours.
I lived in NYC for 19yrs, and saw the Union Sq, 6av, Midtown and 76th st West farmers markets, and of course the fish markets at Fulton and in Chinatown all busy and thriving. Your parents, like many others, ran in other circles, I guess. Despite the little chunk of a quote that you're pulling from, there's no rule that says people who want to get a stable, functional local food supply ALSO have to make regular visits to farms for 'Cowpetting', or that they'd want to.
"There seems simply to be an irreconcilable philosophical difference between 'reversalists' and others, one unconnected to anything that can be comprehended in terms of physical or even social science."
This is the problem, Paul. The term 'REVERSALISTS' is empty, it's self-contradictory, and it lets YOU take your favorite cliche's and pet peeves, glom them onto some imaginary demographic and go 'those damn fools!'..
Bob
It would perhaps, for this particular audience, have been wiser for me to say that "fresher, better tasting food et al" are routinely described as the reasons people invest in CSAs and other local agriculture, including the one I ran until this year (which regularly had a lengthy (50 or more) family waiting list).
It would be wish fulfillment for me to say that's why people will do it in the future, but it has become sufficiently a commonplace (every other small farmer I know doing similar things gets exactly the same comments, including those who truck to NYC) that I assumed it was something of a commonplace that this was a frequent rationale - people are not spending their money on local food, generally speaking, because the mainstream population believes they may not be able to get trucked in lettuce, but for perceived aesthetic and health benefits.
I grew up in a mix of city and suburbia, including Boston and NYC, and of course there are people who don't care about agrarian landscapes - and there are people who go to enormous lengths, for example, to send their kids out of the city through the Fresh Air fund, or if they have money, to take their children to ag-tourist farms (or visit them themselves - bus tours regularly roll up from Manhattan at ones friends of mine run). I don't think the implication that some people, even many people find this to be worth seeking out also includes the subset claim that everyone on earth does.
Cheers,
Sharon
Re: graphs and hard data
I find the evidence of actual events as, or more, compelling than predictive graphs and statistics. One could use a graph of the value of the Dow Jones Index to prove that, in the long run, the stock market will always climb, and many (or most) people believe this to be true. But I wouldn't want to invest in stock futures for 50 years from now. Would you?
I feel that our recurring tradgedy is our inability to learn from history, it is instructive to look at what happens when civilizations collapse, and we have countless examples to look to. Maybe the difference here is between historian and statistician. I feel repeated historical experience is a valid form of data, and more far-reaching than an extrapolation of current trends.
You may think this way because, in many cases, graphs and statistics are often used inappropriately to support one's preexisting hypothesis. With the amount of data available on the web now, it's very easy to find data and present it in a manner to 'prove' one's point. As a data analyst, I see a real danger in the use and misuse of data to draw erroneous conclusions only because an 'apparent relationship' exists between two variables regardless of the effect of other variables on the outcome. This is becoming an increasing problem on this site as evidenced by the Fallacy of Reversibility 'analysis', imo.
Agree completely. Much of the data was sparse (i.e., price of oil vs. farm profits [where do profits at $90 oil come from when it has only been up there a few months?]), assumed a linear extrapolation (and yeast in a batch of brewing beer follows a rising trend until peak sugar), and consequently lent itself to interpretation with very shaky support. Obviously much time was devoted, though the essence of the thesis was not at all convincingly supported. I'm reminded of Josh MacDowell's "The Evidence Demands a Verdict".
Crowbar wrote:
It was a critique of Stuart Staniford's article. It didn't need graphs as it wasn't trying to prove that relocalisation is a consequence of peak oil. Instead, she was showing that Stuart's article was weak in a number of areas. Some of these are:
As you offer no attempts at rebuttal of any points directly related to critiquing Stuart's post, I wonder if you read the article. If you did, and can refute the points she made as to why Stuart's analysis was flawed, please post reasoned points, not just the unsubstantiated opinions that you wrongfully accuse Sharon of presenting.
Excellent. I couldn't agree more. What struck me about Staiford's essay was that it had the tone of a preacher using quasi-data to "prove" the earth is only 6,000 years old. I was so put off by this that I didn't see the point in posting yesterday.
FWIW, my experience with relocaization is that the people do not take the time to really think things trough. I currently have a draft of an aricle that I may submitt to our local paper noting the impossibility of our rural community ever coming close to feeding itself in spite of the fact that there are less than 4,000 people spread out over 600 square miles.
Todd
"I currently have a draft of an article that I may submit to our local paper noting the impossibility of our rural community ever coming close to feeding itself"
I disagree. Jeavons is still saying 4000 feet per person, including compost materials, using Willits data.. I've done that much, manually, with maybe 20% of the work done by my ex, mostly harvesting and in the greenhouse. But it would take a level of coordination and cooperation we don't have. Including lots more fruit and nut trees, planted right now.
We should get a roundtable on this going in town with you, Jason, and John Jeavons.
As fellow commoners of Mendocino County you both might be interested in my latest set of blogs that ask the same question Todd does:
http://www.energyfarms.net/
I will give away the bottom line of the 4th installment, coming out soon. Basically, we can only feed ourselves here if we eat very little meat and can irrigate every square foot of arable land.
My analysis is county-wide, and I don't know the specifics for Laytonville itself, but would love to compare notes with Todd. You can respond on my blog site if so inclined.
Let me address it here although it is a small rural area what I have to say applies to other areas.
The Laytonville area has about 4,000 people scattered over 600 square miles of small valleys and mountains. Using the data from the current Community Solutions newsletter, No.14, the USDA says per capita food consumption is ~2,000 pounds/yr including all food groups. For Laytonville that means the area has to produce 8,000,000 pounds. It isn't going to happen; not only is there insufficient arable land but there is nowhere near enought water. The ETO (evapotranspiration) during peak summer water demand is ~6" per month or about 1/2 acre-foot of water or ~5,000 gallons per day per acre. With the exception of people living along the creek, I'd like to know how many people can irrigate even an acre ever day. Rat, you have a paper I wrote on this so you already know that this isn't realistic.
Nor are cattle going to do much for meat. It takes 30-40 acres of unirrigated range to provide them food. My neighbor has about 300 acres of range and runs a dozen or so cows. So let's say he grows out the calves and the finished yield is 750 pounds or 7,500 pounds total. Gee, that gives the populace ~2 pounds of meat a year (sorry to be snarky). I know of one guy somewhat outside of our area who has 14,000 acres and he runs about 150 cows.
I could go on and on but I'll end with John Jevons. The reality is that John is full of shit. Last year when Sustainable Laytonville visited "Common Ground", they asked about the yields. They were told that the gardens could only supply one meal a day because they didn't have enough compost. I hate to be crude but that's a fucking excuse that dosen't hold water if the system works. The fallacy with Biointensive/Biodynamic and Permaculture is that they all require outside inputs whether it's rock phosphate or rock dusts, etc.. There is no way to have perpetual fertility and take a crop off and replace lost nutrients with the "left-overs" from the area under cultivation. I have been told that even John has said there is no way to maintain fertility even if the person's urine, poop and his bones were added back.
In our area, the dope growers will move out first. Then many older people will be next (It's funny I should say that since I'm 69.). Those who hang around will be those who are close to self-sufficient AND have the necessary skills, tools and equipment. A couple of years ago I got a lot of canning jars from a neighbor. Why? Because few people can any more. And, here's a nice factoid: people need to can about 360 quarts of fruits and vegetables a year PER PERSON to get by during the off months in our kind of climate (FWIW, it's more mid-western than California - I was snowed in for almost a week recently.
Ok, I've run on far too long even though I've only started. I'll go on if anyone asks.
Todd
Edit to correct a spelling mistake I saw and to add: Lest anyone think I an against alternative growing methods, I'm not. We were the first certifed organic "farm" in our area in the early 80's and my wife and I were the co-chairs of the certification committee of the Mendocino County chapter of California Certified Organic Farmers and I did farm inspections including John's place.
I must say I'm quite surprised at the conclusions of your and Jason's analysis. I know Mendocino county somewhat (since I lived one county up in Humboldt for a number of years) and I would have guessed Mendocino could easily be self sufficient under labor-intensive agriculture. I guess now we know why so many of the 70s back-to-the-landers started growing specialty cash-crops for export instead :-)
Golly Stuart, I bet you even think the maine fishing fleet actually hauls fish into to shore.
With more coastline than California (3478 miles), there are plenty of places to offload a cargo picked up in international waters. ;>
I don't know about the whole county, but I suspect the smaller towns could do it. Ukiah probably has too many people, and Willits might, too. The coastal towns probably don't get enuf sun to grow all their own food.
Did this analysis include terracing? No mention of well water. Unless collapse happens tomorrow, might there not be time to build up composting? How did Cuba get around this?
Forgive my ignorance.
Cheers
The Rat has 2 ponds. May have to stock one with fish.
360 jars? Every time I get close to your figure, you raise it by another 50. You started out telling me 200.
Got about 50 cattle on the 360 acres next door. Now we be up to 4 lbs. Throw out the vegeteranians and we are up to 8 lbs. And we haven't talked about Shamrock and 101 Ranches, which have large herds; don't know how sustainable with all the irrigation, but they have lots of animals.
Growers leaving, especially the indoor ones, will be good. Grab their lights and grow in the winter using hydropower.
I question your food recommendations; that is 6 lbs a day, and I don't think I have eaten 4 lbs on the eatingest day of my life.
FEMA recommendations from
http://www.aaoobfoods.com/bucketsoffood.htm
say 600 lbs of grains, legumes, sweeteners, eggs, and powdered milk for an adult male, maybe 100 lbs less for females. Even a lb of fruit and vegetables/ day still is only 1000 lbs.
But, it will take cooperation and coordination, and involving everybody capable of working, which would be harder to achieve than the actual growing. It would mean cattle from the large ranches stay here, instead of being exported. Would mean stocking all the ponds, and/or resurrecting the Trout Farm. Probably mean ripping out all the lawns you so carefully nurtured at the schools, and substituting gardening for PE. We already have a vineyard (table grapes) and a blueberry farm, and there are plenty of wild blackberries around. Bees are easy; when we were doing the market, we had 5 hives. We would have to produce enuf food to either trade for salt, or send expeditions over to the coast to harvest it. Still leaves us without any dairy, tho, so we would need dairy cows, goats, and to build up the yak herd Sustainable Laytonville started.
Getting there, organizing, coordinating crops, coercing the big ranches to go along, will take some sort of ag czar. Since it was my idea, I'll volunteer to be your assistant.
Oh, we still have lots of grasshoppers, and plenty of raw material for "4 and 20 blackbird (raven) pie". And if we can feed people well enuf that they won't poach, a few designated town hunters could add game to the mix. This is the most problematic, cuz too many people would do it on their own,and, as you have pointed out in the past, all the deer were hunted out in 6 months during the Depression. Too bad we can't depend on salmon runs anymore.
Mike
About the food quantities - the 2,000lbs a year Americans are recorded as eating isn't necessarily the weight when they get it, it's the weight when grown. It just adds together the weight of all the fresh grain, fruit and vegetables, and all the animals slaughtered, and so on.
However, a lot of stuff that people eat in the West is dried and otherwise processed, so the weight drops - wheat in my breakfast cereal weighs less than the wheat in the ground, the apricots in the tin weigh less than those on the tree. And then of course you get corn and olives and so on, turned into syrup or oil, that weighs less than the original thing.
So in fact the actual food coming to people's cupboards and refrigerators is more like 1,200lbs, not 2,000lbs. Now consider the fact that in the West, typically about 25% of food bought is discarded uneaten. So we get down to 950lbs. This is above your FEMA recommendations of 600lbs, but again remember that they're recommending powdered milk, eggs, etc - and amazingly, those are not powdered in nature ;)
And that Westerners eat more than they need to sustain themselves should not be a fact which surprises any of us.
This analysis would seem to argue for a lot fewer people in the future. There is a carrying capacity for the land, and, in time, the population may revert to that when large scale food imports are no longer feasible.
I'm always interested to hear more.
I presume that by extending the area, they could generate enough compost. And, presumably, with a large enough area, you can replace nutrients so that growing is sustainable for a very long time?
Peter.
Peter,
Ok, I'll expand a bit but not too much - maybe another time. First of all, the reason for my irritation is that we are potentially talking about people's lives. They read this stuff but don't have the experience to weigh what is being said. In my case, I've grown stuff for over 40 years. I also have a science background so I look for "real" research not annectodotal accounts.
To me, it is important that a growing method not be touted as universal unless it really is and that only comes with agronomic research. A good example of this kind of work was gone by the Rodale Research Institute this past year comparing composts. I don't have the URL for the paper but it can be found by searching at http://www.newfarm.org.
Soil nutrient sustainability is very important to me. That's why I've been messing around with Tera Preta for a few years. What is going to get most home growers is depletion of phosphorous, calcium and trace minerals. The idea that one can go out and collect sufficient organic matter for compost is ludacris (sp). I made tons of compost when we were certified organic. The only way I could possibly get enough organic matter was to clean out horse stalls, truck it home and then turn it with the loader on my tractor.
This leads to the necessity of choosing a future scenario. No fuel? Some fuel? Some synthetic fertilizer? No fertilizer, etc. Here is what I would argue for less than a total collapse: It makes more sense for home growers to use hydroponic methods. It does not require soil preperation. It does not waste water. It minimizes fertilizer use. It is highly productive. It is not labor intensive. The caveat being that it is unlikely to provide all of a families food needs and it isn't cheap. FWIW, a 25# bag of soluble is currently about $37 at our farm supply (For me that's a 60 mile drive each way so I always stock up when I'm down there.)
However, for me, who has an established garden and orchard, some variation of "organic" growing methods makes more sense. As I've written before, I use a variation of mulch gardening but I fertigate using 20-20-20 soluble fertilizer with trace minerals and I do add other ammentments from time to time.
And, heck, I haven't even gotten into appropriate varieties and species.
Climate also plays a significant role in food production. Mendocino County where Rat/Mike, Jason and I live has a zillion macro and micro climates. I'm in the mountains at 3,000 feet where it is snowing right now; I'm willing to bet it is raining at Rat's house 20 south of me and also likely to be raining at Jason's 30 miles south of me. My area is timber and cows (with lots of dope growers thrown in) while the southern part of the county is wine grapes. The coast is a rotten place to grow as noted due to lack of sun. The big Ag product on the coast is harvesting sea urchins for their roe. The coast also has the only dairy herd left in the county.
My hope is that people start to at least try to grow something even if it is in a container or Earthbox. At least they will learn a bit about agronomy. But, in reality, I don't hold much hope for all these coming home gardens.
Enough for now.
Todd
Todd,
We use a product called Jacks Professional 15-5-15 + 4% calcium 2 % magnesium + minors at the nursery.
(15/5/15 Calmag)
works wonders IMHO
D
Todd,
Thanks for your reply. I guess that this:
http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/2007/0913/compost.shtml
or the linked article inside was what you were talking about - both interesting articles.
I can appreciate the comment about horse manure, having recently wheel-barrowed 20 loads from a nearby stables (they muck out) to my allotment. It will be interesting to see what affect it has - we feel that we were depleting the soil too much.
I also hope to start experimenting with green manures, but I can see that you would need a lot of fallow land to make up the quantity needed - it is sobering to see how what seems to be a huge amount of compost just disappears when applied even to a small bit of land.
If I relocalize, I'd like to look into some sort of forest gardening where there seems to be some work done in making a system sustainable over a long period (e.g. see http://www.agroforestry.co.uk/), but again you need much fallow land (or at best differently productive land). I can indeed see why others talk about taking 30 years to learn.
Peter.
A question that comes to mind though, is how significant are those county boundaries? Most state and county boundaries in the US are quite arbitrary, and only rarely correspond to any facts on the ground. (My own joke is that a straight line on a map always indicates that it was drawn by people that were not living there.) If an area with a high population density is bordered by one with a much lower population density, is it not reasonable to assume that the lower-density area might be able to produce a surplus for trade with the higher-density area? (And that the higher-density area might be able to support specialist crasftspersons and tradepeople that the low-density area cannot, thus producing goods and service for trade?) This, in fact, is the normal pattern that we have seen all over the planet, all across history. (And as for higher energy costs eliminating long-distance transport, we are not talking about long-distance transport. It is probably not significantly longer or shorter from one end of Mendocino County to the other than it is from the center of Mendocino county to the center of the adjacent county.)
Thus, I think that if one is going to go to the considerable trouble necessary to produce an analysis like this, then one ought to look at where the natural local trade relationships are likely to occur, and to encompass all of those locations in the study area.
Stuart's article had the tone of a polemic, a personal diatribe, against relocalisation and those who advocate it. The analysis turned into a blinkered accounting exercise, which purported to prove the economies of scale of industrial agriculture in a post peak world and in fact only demonstrated the limitations of thinking and practical experience of the author.
It elegantly showed how easy it is to perpetuate notions of efficiency, which do not encompass sustainable principles, and then extrapolate these from a period of stable growth of nett energy, complexity, and returns, into a period of diminishing nett energy, infrastructure robustness, and stability. To reach dangerous conclusions which would place the world at heightened risk when any of the links of the agricultural logistic chain broke. Mono cultural dependence, is not a particularly enlightened position at any time, and certainly not an appropriate response in uncertain times.
transport
storage, refrigeration and preservation
water availbility
processing
marketing
supporting infrastructure
soil condition
Perhaps an engineering insight into the supporting infrastructure from the petrochemical industry would enlighten the thinking on the sustainability of just one of the links in the chain. I used to work for ICI, which had a substantial fraction of the chemical/petrochemical industry in the UK.
It had a long term North Sea gas price deal which sustained profitability in its various ammonium nitrate plants, until the deal elapsed, and some large plants went with it.
Nett effect, is the UK is dependant on imports of fertilizer.
ICI was also responsible for the bulk production of pesticides and herbicides. This feat was only possible with the operation of a 70 barg, ethylene pipeline. Ethylene produced in Grangemouth from North Sea gas, was exported to Wilton, Runcorn and Stanlow. At Runcorn and Wilton, the ethylene was reacted with chlorine, fluorine etc, to produce the intermediairies for the agrochemicals.
The chlorine cell rooms in Runcorn alone take 1% of the national grids electric. As a result a gas fired power station was built in 1997 on site to avoid the constant ramping of output to optimise electric power charge vs production demand. Unfortunately subsequently North Sea and Morecambe Bay gas outputs have fallen to the extent that the UK has become hostage to the European free market gas prices, when Germany and France, have 10 times the days gas storage capacity and long term contracts. The nett effect in recent cold spells is the economics of the enterprise has been undermined. Chlorine's application for potable water is possibly the number one safeguard to the nations health.
It is inevitable that the production of fertilizer, herbicides and pesticides will increasingly shift to the oil and gas producers. I have worked on some of the very large ongoing Saudi and Qatar based projects enacting this change. With the continued big Ag model advocated OECD countries will make themselves very vulnerable.
I don't see Stuart's analysis as a polemic at all. It is an analysis. Sharon's response is exactly that: a response. Both have some validity from their perspectives.
However, you have made the mistake that many made yesterday and today: confusing Stuart's analysis for advocacy against relocalization. Stuart doesn't need me to defend him, but I happen to think the analysis is correct in the political and economic environment we exist in--until it is not, of course. :)
Is Stuart saying "don't prepare!"? No. He is not. He is saying that most of the factors that would push people to prepare, namely a lack of efficiency and productivity that would drive such change, are going to the be lower than many entertain the notion of right now, meaning that this kind of "change" is going to be an idiographic, relatively irrational decision like most: based on who you are, what you believe, and what you can do.
Does that mean it's wrong to prepare? Absolutely not. It just means it's not going to be the easy choice. All he's saying is that the efficiency and productivity of corp ag isn't going anywhere any time soon.
As I said in the comment section yesterday:
But doesn't that diminish it's worth? It may be valid to predict no move to relocalisation given our current situation but most people here are predicting a very different future economic, political and environmental climate which makes this kind of analysis not particularly helpful in trying to figure out how this will pan out.
As Sharon pointed out, it also misrepresents the views of relocalisation advocates and puts up false predictions so that they can be easily overturned. It is clear why so many regard the piece as a counter-advocacy of relocalisation because it appears to have been researched and written to precisely prove that relocalisation can't happen.
It should be clear from the article, btw, that I actually agree with Professor Goose here - relocalization strategies will be a difficult, if not losing battle, in many areas, given the tenacity of industrial agriculture. That is, the substance of my disagreement is not on whether peak oil will help industrial agriculture, but on the nature of the relocalization movement.
I do disagree that Staniford's piece contained no polemic against relocalization.
My own take is that relocalization as a strategy will probably be intermittent, highly localized, even personalized for some time, showing up in the places where people are most squeezed between food and fuel prices in the first world and in places where poor people can obtain land access again in the poor world. I think that's the nature of thing - Willits and Transition Towns are models, after all. I'm not aware of anyone who thinks that they will magically become the norm, although one can always hope.
But that's not necessarily a nail in the coffin of relocalization either - even if the direst of collapse situations, there are some people who profit and do well. The idea that a chunk of society that can no longer really either afford to eat, heat or drive, because of the cumulative costs of doing all of the above might relocalize, along with some groups that have a political agenda and are able to persuade their communities to go along with them, is not, I think incompatible with relocalization thinking. And the reality is that in the event of a collapse - or even a partial collapse - models become very useful. It was thus in Cuba, where bottom up strategies of survival were adopted by the government. It was thus in the US during WWII, where the victory garden movement, a popular, grassroots move to food security, was adopted and supported by government policy.
Sharon
So Sharon - it sounds like you, along with Richard, see relocalization of agriculture as a survival strategy in a collapsing society. And presumably the purpose of advocating it would be a judgement that a sufficiently severe societal collapse was inevitable, or at least likely enough to make it imprudent not to begin preparing for it now. Is that a fair statement of your views?
I would also like to know whether there are relocalist thinkers who believe that relocalized agriculture is a viable path worth advocating for not in the context of societal collapse. (I only recall personally reading one - Wendell Berry, but he's pretty ideosyncratic I'm sure!) If so, have they attempted to assess what a relocalist society would look like (in terms of population, nutrition, income, etc)?
*puts hand up*
Like I keep saying, as fossil fuels decline and their prices rise, so will the cost of food from industrialised agriculture. If petrol is $10/lt and tomatoes are $20/kg, then people start thinking that it'd be good to have a container or two growing on their veranda, and that 4 hectare market garden with the hothouses just outside the suburbs starts looking a lot more profitable, able to offer the tomatoes for $5/kg since they only have to truck them 10km instead of 250km.
Some relocalisation then becomes inevitable.
Paul Saffo has said (youtube) that he gives only a 50% chance that the United States will still exist as a nation by the middle of this century. He points out a growing trend of cities, states and regions to more or less go it alone, against central government wishes. In other words, he's talking about a localising trend.
I think there's an The Oily Smudge on the Future of the City-State, but have tried to have a look at The Shape of Food to Come
I would have to begin by asking how you define "societal collapse"? I would tend to think that as soon as a proportion of the population are priced out of the conventional food market then that would be a form of collapse, to those experiencing it at the very least. What systems need to fail, and to what extent to be classed as collapse to make a valid case? Could we possibly say that our morally and ethically bankrupt first-world society has already "collapsed"?
Whilst probably not qualifying as a "relocalist thinker", my definition of relocalisation differs from the one provided in the original essay. Mine is more along the lines of "sourcing all goods as locally as possible", and does not negate the possibility of using mechanisation, or indeed trade for some goods. It's all about the consumers ability to obtain what they need in the local area, at a fair price and of good quality.
In this sense relocalisation would be useful in a non-collapse situation, purely for the resilience and strength of local economies, but yet again we come round full circle as these are only useful if we fear supply disruptions, the effect of climate change etc. If we can shrug off these concerns then there is really no need for it beyond aesthetic value and reminiscence over times passed.
A question I would ask in return is "Would all of those starving masses that are already present on the earth consider themselves to be involved in an ongoing societal collapse, and would they have been better off today if they'd stayed localised as they once were?" of course with the assumption that they were allowed to by the powers that be. The impetus applied by industrial agriculture to third world countries has undone a lot of what was already localised/subsistence living and contributed in part to the famines they face today.
The author of "Forest Gardening" Robert A de J Hart advocates localisation, though perhaps not so explicitly, and he doesn't mention societal collapse at all (that I can recall). The main motivations he puts forward are ethical and humanist ones, right livelihood etc, as well as the increased nutritional benefits of locally grown foods. Obviously ethical concerns and scientific facts are hard to mix in an analysis. As has been mentioned in comments here, one philosophy of living does not fit all people, so what he has written has to be taken with that in mind.
Actually, I think averting a collapse scenario (which I don't think is absolutely inevitable, although quite likely in the rich world - but I believe is inevitable in the poor one and among the poorest and least enfranchised of the rich world) isn't my own personal primary motivation, it is merely one of many compelling arguments. But like Berry, I think an agrarian society (I don't think Berry would call himself a relocalizer, but an agrarian but of course, I don't know the man, just admire his work) has a number of potential benefits now. Some of which are (and in no particular order):
1. I actually think Jefferson may have had a point about the merits of independence in democracy. That is, I think that consumers who are terribly dependent on large corporations to meet their needs cannot act effectively in political opposition to them. That is, I think it is hard to really do more than deplore the influence of corporate power while you are regularly giving them big chunks of your income to feed, clothe and otherwise meet your needs. That said, I don't want to over-romanticize Jefferson, whose "independent" farmers included a slave society. But I think there's something real there.
2. I do think there is a real correllation between the quality of the food we eat and the costs we bear for health care, which is swiftly becoming one of the greatest accellerating factors in social inequity. The nutritional density of food, recently picked (most supermarket produce is close to a week old, according to Marion Nestle's _What to Eat_), picked green, and grown in poor soil is simply lower than locally grown food. I suspect (although I have not run these numbers in anything other than a back of the envelope sense) that large scale voluntary relocalization would shift a considerable economic burden off the taxpayer in health costs, assuming that this process of dietary and agricultural shift was encouraged by public education as in World War II or Finland's heart disease campaign. The "third world immigration" dietary paradox suggests this is probably true.
3. I believe relocalization would create more robust economies generally - that is, Teodor Shanin and a host of others have documented that in difficult times, including those well short of collapse, the informal economy can expand and enable the lives and functioning of those excluded from the formal economy. I believe strengthening the local and informal economies is simply a wise hedge - I think we've put too many eggs in one economic basket. And I do think that relocalization would be good for the American working class - I'm trying to recall offhand where I've seen the data that suggests that much of China's wealth has mirrored the decline in American blue collar wages, but I can't pull it out of my head without at least one more cup of tea ;-), but I suspect that enabling people now working low wage, low benefit jobs to relocalize would represent an improvement in economic circumstances in many cases.
4. Perhaps most importantly, I believe that it is impossible to operate on a "fair share" without a society that is at least partly relocalized. As I said, I'm not calling for anything resembling perfect equity, but I do think that the conventional model, as you demonstrated in your previous essays on biofuels, is potentially deadly to the poor of the world, and damned dangerous to the poor of the US and other Global North nations. I believe that even if we can eventually perfect renewable technologies and redistribute them more equitably over the long term, we have fairly good evidence (in that we aren't), that we can't do that today. And yet, the poor are already suffering from higher food prices, the inability to import oil and climate change. Which suggests to me that at the same time we work on developing new technologies that may or may not get applied, we also have to balance our own books, and find some way to use less energy, not when the technologies are perfect, but now.
If we are actually to use carbon fairly (even with trading) or to use other environmental resources fairly I think that means a whole host of things that, outside the context of relocalization, merely look unpleasant - less travel, less money, less shopping, etc... Relocalization gives us a chance to get *more* of a host of things - stronger social ties, better food, better health, etc... Revolutionary War Historian Timothy Breen calls this "rituals of non-consumption" and talks about the social power they have in times of shortage - one would think that the social benefits of not doing things would be poor compensation, but oddly, Breen finds quite otherwise.
I'm not sure if I think a widespread, multinational societal collapse is likely. I do think ecological collapse is likely, but whether the rich world gets to keep its cars or not, I don't know. I just don't assume that when this shakes out I will be one of the rich, or that most other people will be. I think preparing for poverty is probably a good hedge. But I'm not clear on whether most people believe "collapse" is what I call "ordinary human poverty" - that is the "shoes or medicine" "groceries or heat" questions that I think are increasingly likely to squeeze a large chunk of the population. IMHO, relocalization is probably their best bet in a society that has shown itself to be willing to tolerate a high degree of suffering among the poor, not only of the world, but of the US.
My own take is that "collapse" for many writers means "the end of the way of life we've created in the rich world." I admit, I don't think that would be a collapse in and of itself - it could be, of course, if it happened violently, suddenly, badly. But otherwise, I think that's merely a shift. So I guess I ask the question back at you - what's a collapse?
Sharon
Hi,
If you're looking for published points of view, I don't know, but I'd put myself more or less in that category. The trend towards larger farms and more mechanized farms that Stuart is producing is, in my opinion, an artifact of the political system of subsidies, and the Washington Post seems to agree:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/20/AR200612...
A case could be made that it wouldn't take a societal collapse or even a peak oil crisis. All we have to do is imagine a President and Congress changing the current structure of agricultural subsidies and suddenly relocalization would be an option that people interested in market returns would be turning to.
Keith
I realize I neglected to answer your other question about agrarian/relocalization thinkers who don't predicate their analysis on the presumption of collapse.
I actually believe that in the agrarian movement, this is the majority viewpoint. Besides Berry, offhand related popular thinkers include:
Gene Logsdon (perhaps most clearly articulated in _Living at Nature's Pace_)
Wes Jackson
Helena Norberg-Hodge
Frances Moore Lappe (who is sort of borderline agrarian)
Vandana Shiva
David Orr (whose essay "The Uses of Prophecy" specifically deals with this question)
Susan Witt
Norman Wirzba
Bill McKibben (Deep Economy might be the place to start here - he regards peak oil and climate change as secondary reasons to act)
In addition, Herman Daly has called himself an agrarian at times, although his work is more wide-ranging, and EF Schumacher would be a related thinker.
In addition, the neo-luddite movement, which is an interesting alliance of agrarians, plain religious movements (Conservative Quakers, Mennonites, Amish and some related groups), and a number of tech thinkers who have come to reject high tech mentalities would be related. Scott Savage would be one public figure, David Kline and Elmo Stoll others that are fairly well known on the religious end of this, while Neil Postman, Kirkpatrick Sale and Sven Birkerts are among the techno elements.
But this is all a very rich world perspective, with the exception of Shiva and Norberg-Hodge. Food sovereignty and Land access are huge issues in the developing world, and few, if any thinkers above have failed to be shaped by groups like Via Campesina, the Brazilian MST, Wangari Maathai's Association for Better Land Husbandry/Green Party in Kenya. Veronika Bennholdt-Thomsen and Maria Mies come at this in Europe from a global perspective articulating what they call "The Subsistence Perspective" (title of their superb book, btw) and its particular focus for women. Paul Hawken documents the growth in alliance between native people's groups, anti-globalization groups, peasant groups and other odd allies in _Blessed Unrest_, and calls it, perhaps inaccurately, but not without any justification, the largest movement on the planet.
There's some heavy overlap here with the anti-globalization movement, much of which has focused on food. Peter Rosset and Jerry Mander are major public figures here, arguing for food sovereignty and small scale agriculture, not so much in the context of relocalization but of food justice issues. In the UK, Jules Pretty has addressed some of these issues, as has Pimentel, although Pimentel, I think it can be safely said, forsees a crisis.
Then there are the permaculturists who advocate this system for a host of reasons, some having more to do with a crisis than others - Holmgren, for example, is highly peak aware, while others like Hemenway explicitly deny the likelihood of a collapse and advocate permaculture because of its positive elements.
Then there are those who advocate the positive economic benefits of relocalization, including McKibben, Judy Wick of BALLE, Michael Shulman and others.
Finally, there's the large local/slow food movement, much of which has as much to do with aesthetics as it does any concerns about the future. Nutritionist Joan Dye Gussow comes at this from a nutritional standpoint, Gary Nabhan of Native Seed (Search) and various seed savers from a host of perspectives ranging from monoculture concerns to historical interest, from an Alice Waters and hundreds of her followers as a chef, Carlo Petrini from the perspective of keeping regional food differences alive, the 100 Mile Diet folks from the perspective of climate change. I doubt that any of these people, or the thousands and thousands of others involved in this group actually forsee any collapse at all.
IMHO, the majority viewpoint of what you call the "reversalists" is that this change is simply a good idea. Concern about collapse is a factor, but it is probably not the largest one, and the largest and most successful groups are those who have harnessed other concerns as well - better food, better taste, better health, economic and social justice, etc...
Sharon
Aah - an intellectual map of all the different strands of reversalism - outstanding!
I am fairly familiar with the thinking of the anti-globalization folks. Indeed I was privileged to be invited to an early IFG meeting on how the anti-globalization movement should respond to peak oil, and got to sit around the table with Jerry Mander, Vandana Shiva, etc. In general, I to a greater or lesser degree, agree with their analysis of what is not good about globalized, industrial society. However, I think it became clear both to them and me that I wouldn't be part of the consensus they were trying to build in the room for what the solutions to those problems might look like.
The part of my question that remains unaddressed is the issue of income in a relocalized society. Every traditional non-industrial agricultural society we know of is dirt poor. There is no way that the global middle class is ever going to voluntarily agree to become poor.
There you go again, talking about what people would currently regard as acceptable and also judging policies in terms of monetary value. If you don't think our society is basically unsustainable, I wish you'd say so. If you do think it is unsustainable, what do you think a sustainable society would look like? Would people be measuring their worth, or their quality of life, in terms of how much money, or stuff, they had?
Do you think humans are incapable of designing a non-industrial agricultural society that is better than the traditional examples you're thinking of, particularly using better bio-intensive techniques? If you don't think humans are capable of that, do you think they are capable of designing a sustainable big ag society? If so, do you envisage a continuance of a global middle class and can you say what income you would expect them to have, and why?
I think it is the responsibility of folks who believe in the relocalized future to figure out how it would work. As far as I can see so far, they cannot answer fairly basic questions about it like how well-off people would be.
"If so, do you envisage a continuance of a global middle class and can you say what income you would expect them to have, and why?"
I'm working on that and will answer over coming weeks (hopefully not months...).
I already told you, I'm working on it.
Stuart, Richard Heinberg pulled together various thoughts on how to determine whether a society is sustainable. He published them as Five Axioms of Sustainability. To me, they boil down to this: to be sustainable, a society must not consume resources more quickly than they can be renewed and must not produce waste at a rate greater than the environment can assimilate it (without changing it as a result of such assimilation). For the life of me, I can't imagine a growing society (either economically or in population) that can meet such conditions. In that situation, surely we would need to think of quality of life in terms other than how they appear to measure it today? I doubt that such a society could naturally flow from free market economics. Whether you call it coercion or education, surely it would be better to plan for and aim to build such a society, rather than hope it can emerge from the chaos of a disintegrating unsustainable society (since an unplanned termination of an unsustainable society would likely be chaotic, I think)?
I'm really unclear as to why you think that the relocalisationists, who see relocalisation as part of a sustainable society, need to answer all the questions you pose, since the questions are rooted in society as it is today, rather than what a sustainable society might look like.
I don't think a mathematical analysis can show us what that society will look like (unfortunately).
I like this set of principles:
The Hannover Principles
William McDonough and Michael Braungart 1992
1. Insist on rights of humanity and nature to co-exist in a healthy, supportive, diverse and sustainable condition.
2. Recognize interdependence. The elements of human design interact with and depend upon the natural world, with broad and diverse implications at every scale. Expand design considerations to recognizing even distant effects.
3. Respect relationships between spirit and matter. Consider all aspects of human settlement including community, dwelling, industry and trade in terms of existing and evolving connections between spiritual and material consciousness.
4. Accept responsibility for the consequences of design decisions upon human well-being, the viability of natural systems and their right to co-exist.
5. Create safe objects of long-term value. Do not burden future generations with requirements for maintenance or vigilant administration of potential danger due to the careless creation of products, processes or standards.
6. Eliminate the concept of waste. Evaluate and optimize the full life-cycle of products and processes, to approach the state of natural systems, in which there is no waste.
7. Rely on natural energy flows. Human designs should, like the living world, derive their creative forces from perpetual solar income. Incorporate this energy efficiently and safely for responsible use.
8. Understand the limitations of design. No human creation lasts forever and design does not solve all problems. Those who create and plan should practice humility in the face of nature. Treat nature as a model and mentor, not as an inconvenience to be evaded or controlled.
9. Seek constant improvement by the sharing of knowledge. Encourage direct and open communication between colleagues, patrons, manufacturers and users to link long term sustainable considerations with ethical responsibility, and re-establish the integral relationship between natural processes and human activity.
I think that Heinberg probably has missed much of #5 and never touches #3. McDonough considers #3 crucial because sustainability is not just a mechanical getting by but rather richer soil for human growth.
Chris
Ok, we need an answer about how well off people would be. Note, it doesn't have to be a *true* answer - that is, neo-liberal economics has been making false claims about how well off people would be under globalized free trade for a good long while now, but we need an answer. Well, that shouldn't be that hard, as long as the standards of accuracy are so low.
My general guess is "lower" in the developed world - particularly if relocalized societies actually refrained from extracting wealth from poorer nations, and had to live on their own land base.
But more importantly, I'm not sure that income analyses will cover the ground - as noted before, there is an enormous difference between poor in money and largely self-sufficient and poor and largely dependent on the monetary economy. A relocalized society would pretty much necessary have a lot more people who were less dependent on money - that's not to say *independent of* money, but, for example, my family of six lives on about 40K per year, annually (it fluctuates - this year I'm writing and giving up the CSA, and I'll actually make less writing books than I do farming, which is saying something).
This would be considered not a lot of money in most places. And yet, on that income we were able to pay off our mortgage on our house years (we still have one on an additional piece of farmland we bought subsequently), get completely out of student loan debt, we eat extremely well, have a great deal of fun and money in the bank. We simply don't *need* much more money than that. We grow a large percentage of our own food, barter for some other needs (firewood, some childcare, foods like honey and beef we don't raise ourselves, the use of a second car for those occasions when one is necessary, even dentistry occasionally).
I don't claim this is duplicable by everyone, nor do I underestimate the fact that a. we're highly educated (something that is quite achievable in a low energy society, but hasn't been a huge priority in the US), b. we essentially trade off a lousy salary for superb benefits worth quite a lot to us, and c. we live an area that wasn't as much affected by the housing boom as the average. But it is also the case that my family is better off in many respects, some empirical (no debt, solid savings), some more subjective (for example, I know many people who can't afford to eat high quality, organic food all the time on double our income, or who struggle with well over that to be sure their children are adequately cared for) than many of my peers who make much, much more money than I do. And that fact is in part due to our capacity to produce what we need and some extra.
I don't mean to imply that everyone would make our choices, but I live a life that I consider to be of extremely high quality, and that I think would meet empirical standards of a high satisfaction level combined with a fairly high standard of living, at an income level that is, while above the poverty level by a good bit (I've lived quite a long time below the poverty level too, and while that's harder, it did not equate to misery most of the time), comparatively low (I believe we are below the average income for a family our size, but haven't checked in a while, I could be wrong about that). So income levels would only be a portion of the picture - you'd have to do income equivalents as well.
Sharon
Sharon, I don't think it's a question that needs answering, unless Stuart can explain why it's important, in the long term. For example, it's possible to imagine a society where money is not important, where most people can fend for themselves and those that can't can be helped by the local community. That Stuart thinks it's important might say a lot about what Stuart can't imagine. He could be right, though, in which case, is there much hope for us if the measure of a man or woman is, and always will be, his or her total monetary (or possession) worth? If that is so, then economic growth, and growth in individual prosperity, is the only thing that will ever drive individuals, and we will never see a sustainable society. I think it's possible that that is the case, but, if so, the relocalisation argument is largely pointless.
They may not get the choice.
Absent fossil fuels, there'll be a great slowdown in the volume of global trade, and a reduction in the physical range of people's lives. This means less lawyers, accountants, stockbrokers, and because less of them, less academics, too - and so on and so forth.
One problem that Third World countries have is that their tertiary-educated tend not to stay in the country, or return to it if their education was overseas. This inhibits their development in every sense. It's simply that in a largely non-industrialised economy, there are less opportunities for them than in the West.
In the case of a combination of peak fossil fuels, climate change and the economic troubles that are inevitable with the first two, it's likely that there'll be fewer opportunities for the middle classes everywhere.
Now, whether what they change to is what you mean when you say "dirt poor" is another question.
Stuart, I'd really like to hear your analysis of how the global middle class is going to stay rich in the future, and deal with larger environmental issues - how are we going to pay to mitigate climate change (a bill rising steadily), and deal with high fuel costs, handle the massive infrastructure redevelopment costs and the shaky economic situation. I don't forsee "collapse" as inevitable - but I don't forsee a lot of people getting richer, either, and most likely the opposite. A lot of the American middle class is in the early stages of being squeezed by rising energy and food costs, and besides starving the poor of the developing world, presumably rising energy and food costs are also going to make some of the middle class less middle, no?
This is precisely the kind of reasoning that will get me in trouble with you, of course, but it is, I think worth noting that agrarian societies are all poor *now* when there are lots of high energy, high technology societies that are rich. But the US was a comparatively wealthy, largely agrarian (no one is saying we won't do anything but farm) society for quite some time, as was Britain and most of Europe. That is, relocalization may not work very well as a strategy for a single nation, but as a world strategy, for dealing with climate change and energy issues, it might work quite well. No one can jump off the growth wagon alone without a crisis - but as you say, we're all in this one together. I'm not arguing world government here, but certainly, were relocalization to receive the same amount of support, that say, neo-liberal globalization has, it might be possible to spread the system. Again, not especially likely, but it is not true that all agrarian societies have always been poor.
Sharon
Post-WW II Argentina was agricultural and one of the richest nations in the world at the time. The same could be said of Australia & New Zealand at the time.
Alan
There seems to be a trend whereby increasing numbers of people are buying organic food and food from farmer's markets, CSAs,and other organizations which tend to provide a greater proportion of food that is grown locally. This doesn't mean that we will or can be become completely localized but it seems reasonable to work for a greater proportion of localization and not necessarily some ideal, purist state of localization. The important trend is that more and more people are interested in supporting local agriculture for a whole host of reasons including peak oil and climate change. Perhaps freshness is not quantifiable with graphs and other hard data but I know from personal experience that it is real.
We shall see whether this trend starts reversing with the onset of biofuels. No doubt there will be many, including posters on this site, who will be ready with the appropriate qraphs and quantititative data demonstrating said trend. In the mean time, I will hope that my local farmers keep their land in food and not biofuels. Since I know my local farmer personally, I don't see him putting his land in biofuels, at least at this point in the game.
At some point, hopefully, our politicians and people will see the folly of diversting our valuable food resources to biofuels and subsidies and other incentives will be stopped. Candidates at the national level have not yet gotten the message.
This is what I have been trying to say tstreet. Around here, it is a market-driven return to more local economies and the reasons cannot be always be described in a spreadsheet. Although there are some things that the local markets provide that you don't see on mass grocers shelves (garlic varieties, interesting baked products etc etc). It's similar to the revitalization of some towns and city cores. It didn't start as people wanting to save money on their commute (in fact many people here "reverse commute" out to suburban offices). People like the lifestyle of walking around their community to go to the parks, movies, shopping, restaurants, kids walking to school etc. They really do that in Arlington, VA. You start to recognize the same people that you see while doing these activities and eventually know several hundreds or thousands of people - your community. People seem to like knowing the person that grew their tomatoes, or baked their bread or butchered their meat. However, now it appears it was the wise choice economically.
Now, it is true that some people could care less - don't want to know their neighbors, go for quantity of food over quality etc.
People also have different attitudes about disposability vs quality. About five years ago, an office colleague was considering a home purchase. She told me she would like to live where I do because walking to theatres and such would be neat - BUT she couldn't see living in somebody's "used" house (most homes here are 70-100 years old). So, she moved about 40 miles out in the burbs. She was pretty happy with the cheaper, bigger house with the 3 car garage - not so much anymore.
Anyway, this is all a bit off topic, but mainly I just wanted to agree with you on the trend of people buying local and local economies. I agree on the biofool stuff too!
I enjoyed being able to walk or take public transit everywhere when I lived in a basement in Arlington. I didn't like the fact that unlike in the SF Bay Area it was impossible to go out of my house and see undeveloped land.
Sounds like you want the little house on the prairie. By definition if you walk out of your house there is development right behind you! I take a walk to the Potomac trail or bike into Rock Creek park if I want local nature. There's a lot of small parks too. What gets me is being unable to see real wilderness until practically you hit West Virginia because of all the sprawl. I guess I like keeping the town town-like and the country side country side-like.
Well, actually, if you're going all the way to West Virginia, I imagine you're driving, and it's not real wilderness if you can drive up to it. IIRC, a good bit of West Virginia is countryside-like, but is there any real wilderness?
I was talking about Dolly Sods, Otter Creek, Cranberry etc. which by definition are wilderness areas. I guess you have to drive and then hike in some. Is there any real wilderness ? Is wilderness defined by no being able to drive to it ? Was there ever wilderness after the car? Or is it defined by how easy it is to get to ? Most people fly then drive to Mt Everest or K2 I would guess and then hike in. I guess there never was any wilderness. But that's what they call it.
Tangentially, China has announced price controls on domestic fertilizer supply for the spring planting season and dictated that any type of future price increase requires government review. China is a net-exporter of nitrogen (N) and phosphate (P), but imports potash (K). It's possible the government will likely have to raise export taxes further (currently 30%) or limit the issuance of export licenses, otherwise producers will simply divert raw material to higher profit international markets. If China does take further action to limit exports, this will raise global N,P prices which have obvious impacts on commercial agriculture.
For potash, I'm told that producers are asking for a minimum of $100/ton over the 2007 contract price of $170/ton while buyers
say anything over +$50/ton increase would be difficult to absorb.
It's a complicated non-linear mess.
One of the objections that people had to the Export Land Model (ELM) is that exporters would try to curtail domestic consumption in order to maximize their net exports (and there have been some examples of attempts at rationing, e.g., Iran), but Russia is systematically raising their duties on exported crude and refined products.
Regarding food, I believe that both Russia and China are actively trying to curtail food exports.
The bottom line is that food and energy exporters are going to try to take care of the "home team" first. I suppose that we might in effect see more and more bilateral trade--with the food and energy exporters primarily trading with each other.
Not a good time to be both a net food and net energy importer.
Stuart's rationale appeals to me for a very simple reason: people who 'get things done' generally have A-type personalities - and I suspect that the majority of these driven people are also technophiles.
In view of this, a post Peak Oil world is more likely to be a highly optimised low-energy but technology-focussed world rather than any sort of hippy agrarian society.
These A-types will simply apply their drive & energy to the problems associated with 'energy descent'.
I can imagine large farms continuing to exist in order to benefit from economies of scale.
I can imagine GPS satellites still being maintained & launched in order to maximise the efficiency of ground based travel & also to permit precision agriculture.
Computer systems, broadcast systems and communications networks (including the Internet) will be maintained to reduce the need for physical travel & transport.
Travel & transport, when needed, will be timetabled & routed by computer to minimise fuel use.
Sure, we will also see a large expansion in local food gardens & small-holdings ... but these won't be productive enough or organised enough to feed the cities.
There will be great changes ahead - but fossil fuels will be around for many years to come, and their use will gradually become restricted to agricultural & other key areas ... with the FULL support of technology.
'Mass relocalisation' is unlikely to become necessary - except perhaps for the more energy intensive/reliant towns & suburbs in the USA.
Meta;
'With the FULL support of technology'
Don't forget that Technology needs support, too. I don't think we're done with computers or radios, microprocessors, transistors etc.. (to just consider one little area of tech) .. but that segment of our world is practically an Aspect of the masses of energy we are soaking in.
Yes, they are far too useful to let go of, but there might well be a 'balancing off' of the energy-intensity of some parts of our techno-craze that will simply be unsupportable, no matter how desirable, to shoot back at the accusations of 'Wishful thinking' that seem so fully aimed at just this
'Hippy Agrarian' stereotype that keeps twitching-out the clear thinking of the critics of Localization.
Bob
Case in point, if I told you rain (or lack of it) could make nuclear power nonviable, what would you say?
Drought Could Force Nuke Plant Shutdowns
Some complex technologies are useful, not to mention fun, but they rely on basic natural resources and natural systems the same as simple technologies. And the more complex a technology the more potiential for disruption.
It is issues like water, economics, and completion time for new nuke plants which tend to make me think that nuclear shouldn't be part of our energy future. Thin film, ala Nanosolar, for example, could permit us to scale up to megawatts in the double digits in a matter of months rather than years. However, to forego nuclear as part of our future mix requires faith in our ability to make solar and wind more dispatchable through storage, ubiquity, wind farms across regions, demand management, and a bit of coal and natural gas on the side.
One thing for sure. Drought won't cause solar to shut down; in fact it might be beneficial for it with less clouds and rain. Unless, of course, you count the water necessary to keep the panels clean.
Nuclear power has added more power over the last years and decades (even without new reactors) than all other renewables (solar, wind etc...) combined. (Increasing operating efficiency)
Nanosolar is taking 4 years to get its 400MW/year factory spun up. Once those solar cells roll out of the factory they do nothing until they are installed and hooked up the grid or to power something.
All of the solar power in the USA (installed over decades) does not equal the power of one of average size nuclear plants in terms of kwh. 3800MW at the end of 2007. This generates about 3 billion kwh.
Diablo Canyon 1 (1,073 MWe) generates about 8 billion kwh.
Drought and all other factors- overall nuclear power operating efficiency is still 90% in the USA. solar is still 15-30%. Drought does not hurt solar but the rare things like clouds, night time, dust, etc...
Nuclear can be made more water efficient. Use waste water. New reactors like molten salt. Up the efficiency of existing reactors with annular fuel and thermoelectrics and electrical generation gets doubled with the same water use.
Actually, world nuclear power looks pretty flat in capacity recently and has a declining share of generation. There are 30 plants under construction, so we might see 3 GW a year or so of new capacity, but many plants need to retire as well. On the other hand, wind and solar together installed about 24 GW last year. So, it is renewables that are adding more power now, not nuclear and this looks likely to continue.
Chris
I knew that US numbers had more clear illustration of my point but world numbers still are true (except for the a small stall in the last four years.
For 1993 to 2005
Wood (biomass): 96 thousand megawatt-hours/per year.
Waste: - 259 thousand megawatt-hours/per year. Negative number.
Geothermal: - 190 thousand megawatt-hours/per year. Negative number.
Solar: ( favorite): +8 thousand megawatt-hours/per year
Wind (favorite): 1345 thousand megawatt-hours/per year.
Renewable (total of above five) 1,000 thousand megawatt-hours/per year.
US nuclear energy figure is +16,203 thousand MWh/year
But even for the world numbers, the relatively slight percentage growth in Twh exceeds the numbers of twh (billion kwh) for solar and wind.
2002, wind generated 52 TWh
2004 wind 82 terawatt-hours
http://www.iea.org/Textbase/stats/surveys/mes.pdf
Solar, wind, geothermal and other
OECD total 153 twh in 2006
so about 100 TWh added total for solar, wind, geothermal and other from 2002 to the end of 2006.
Nuclear also added about 100 twh from your chart from 2002 to 2006.
Going to the 1998 to 2006 period and nuclear has added over 200 Twh
which exceeds the total 170 twh total of solar, wind, geothermal and other
Back to 1993 and the world has added about 500 twh of nuclear.
As we know this was during a period of very slow and almost non-existent reactor build.
So now with new reactors and extending old reactors and uprates the numbers will improve substantially for nuclear as will nuclear powers contribution.
by 2020 the IEA expectation is for world nuclear to get up to 3100-3200+ Twh. that would be an increase of 500-600 Twh. Renewables would need to triple to quadruple to keep pace. Hopefully they do. The less coal and fossil fuels the better
good commentary meta.
That is assuming we use fuel in the future except on a very limited basis.
I was thinking last night, 150 years after peak whale oil and life really sucks.
Maybe not for you, but it's sucking big time for the Whales even today!
MetaMeme:
I do think that you have described the direction that Dick Cheney and his type (which dominate the national/homeland security bureaucracy and the corporations -- in short, TPTB) would/will take the country as things get worse.
In no way will they be outlawing home vegie gardens, or CSAs, or local farmer's markets, or any of that, but don't expect any encouragement or help from the FedGov - certainly nothing like the WWII Victory Garden campaign. At best, they'll be ignoring those of us trying to grow some of our own food, and directing all of their attention on big ag and getting food to the masses (at a profit for the big corporations, of course). I think it is likely that we will see ALL fertilizers and pesticides (organic or otherwise) pulled from the garden center shelves so that they can all go to big ag. Feed for chickens and other small stock might also start to be made unavailable to anyone except big ag. Keep things like this in mind when making your own plans.
It seems to me that both this work and Mr. Stanifords work are at least in part discussing small versus large farms. Both seem to me to be ignoring one key factor at work in the United States. That factor is governmental policy. I do not claim to be an expert in the overall policy or the USDA on small versus large farms however in the county in which I live on the ground policy decisions clearly favor large entities. The example I am most familiar with is "Conservation Plans" which are required to recieve payments under many of the USDA programs. In my personal experience a large entity is allowed a more lenient policy with regard to soil loss than a smaller unit. This directly translates into more profitability for the larger unit. The reasons for this are complex but the short reason is that an acre of corn or soybeans will have a higher actual return than an acre of forage crops.
Reversability would probably require changes in governmental regulatory policy as well as economic forces. I doubt that the first governmental response to peak oil will be to rationalize their regulatory climate.
There is a lot a wasted energy in the transportation and processing end that can be cut before actual food production is at risk.
Correct me if I am wrong, but 9,749 words may be the longest ever TOD essay. I don't recall one going over 10,000 words.
As I said over in the original thread, one of Stuart's more controversial essays. I knew he would get some push back on it. An interesting debate for sure. Whether Stuart is or isn't correct, I think relocalization is a good idea.
No argument from me. (Since Robert and I are going to be neighbors, we have to play nice from now on).
As I noted at the top of Stuart's discussion, one doesn't have to look hard for examples of successful Electrification Of Transportation (EOT) systems--practically the whole EU, resulting, along with other factors, in a per capita energy consumption rate about half of what it is in the US--and the Amish provide very good examples of successful small farms.
Wasn't one of Stuart's on Saudia Arabia 16,000+?
Peter.
My question always has been, how local?
I don't care where my tv is made. we make goods and they make goods. right now the pendulum has swung too far to one side, but that will correct. I would not want my doctor becoming a farmer or a machinest who exports around the world to become a farmer for the sake of relocalization. relocalization may be more a nice ideal than a better way to order the economy. other people's farmers are not bad either.
How local?
A classic question and there are no blanket responses. Most advocates suggest focusing on food and energy systems first, as these are so crucial. If you are curious to explore this question further I might suggest the following:
http://www.energybulletin.net/35769.html
http://www.livingeconomies.org/
http://globalpublicmedia.com/relocalization_a_strategic_response_to_peak...
Oh really? You're predicting a resurgence of US manufacturing capability?
Yes bruce. maybe not right away. eventually wages, property prices and the dollar will fall far enough where it makes sense to manufacture more goods in the US.
http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/news/newsbyid.asp?id=88247
Oh, so we have to become a third world country before we recover?
Robert, I thought you might find this interesting.
http://blogs.wsj.com/energy/
January 23, 2008, 2:19 pm
More Bad News for Ethanol
Posted by Keith Johnson
Perhaps a better question to ponder:
Are the initiatives of individual households and communities that elect to transform themselves along the relocalization vision a wise, useful, and effective adaptation to the changing paradigm (a.k.a. "The Long Emergency") driven by oil, FF and general non-renewable resource scarcity, and climate change?
Sharon's essay mentioned the Precautionary Principle, and given the risks and uncertainties we are facing, it would seem to me that relocalized households and communities would position themselves to minimize their risks considerably, at the possible cost of missing out on some of the goodies of a cornucopian technological civilization that somehow manages to dodge the multiple bullets and continue onwards and upwards. On the other hand, what are the risks if NO communities and NO households are pursuing the alternative relocalization strategy? Isn't it prudent as a society to at least be "hedging our bets" a little?
There is also another relevant principle, this one from medicine: Primum non nocere - "First, do no harm". What harm are those that are implementing the relocalization vision at the household or community level really doing? I believe that many could argue that no harm is being done at all. Indeed, this is no accident, for the relocalization movement has grown from those striving to "walk lightly on the earth", those searching for a more physically and emotionally healthy life, and those seeking more socially functional and humane communities. In contrast, the criticisms of the mainstream society & economy are extensive and familiar to most of the readers here; the harmfulness of non-relocalized lifestyles and communities to people and the planet should now be widely recognized.
I have no doubt that there will be farmers raising grains on large acreage using present technologies for a long time to come. I also have no doubt, however, that increasing numbers of households will transform themselves along the lines of the relocalization vision, and in turn will transform their communities to an increasing extent. This will occur most likely without any active encouragement on the part of TPTB; in fact, it will most likely happen in the face of continued social ridicule and a steady stream of pronouncements from learned authorities as to why such a move is silly and misguided at best, and foolish and unpatriotic at worst. Like salmon swimming upstream, these people will persevere, however. They will do so because this isn't just about maximizing their personal income statement or balance sheet at a particular moment; it is because increasing numbers of people come to recognize that a relocalized lifestyle in a relocalized community is a better way to live.
you raise good points WNC. you forgot one important one- PRICE. peak oil will cause the price to rise and we'll use oil in more efficient ways. this will accomplish more than all other approaches combined. I have no doubt that reversalists and the kunstler's of the world will put the technofix on their roof when it is cheap to put up and saves money. at the right price even kunstler will plug his PHEV into his solar power system because it produces so much more energy than he need
price. price. price.
it will be very efficient to change that mantra to..
rice. rice. rice
And who is going to be using the oil more efficiently, exactly? The poor can't afford to replace inefficient boilers, or trade in their gas guzzlers for Priuses. The demand for fuel is pretty inflexible given the way we've structured our society. Suburbanites can't all relocate nearer to within working distance of their work.
You've made a rather glib statement and completely neglected the human consequences of this magical increase in efficiency.
Every single person will use oil more efficiently. that's not a glib statement, it's basic economics. too many people miss the economic side of the equation on the old oil drum. fuel efficiency rose 70% during the last gas crisis. the prius just outsold the explorer. did you ever think Ford would come out with a hybrid SUV?
Hmmm... speaking of ignoring sides of equations, you seem, by implication, to be saying collapse can't happen. This is a strange statement to make given that collapse always has happened. I see no mechanism by which collapse would become impossible. All the more so given the greater the complexity of a system, the more vulnerable it is to collapse. Given that we are living in, by far, the most complex civilization yet on this planet, this seems like a huge assumption.
Further, greater efficiencies imply new technoloy and/or changes in behavior. The poor and near-poor won't be buying much in the way of new technologies if TSHTF, no? So, if the tech isn't going to save them, what will if not self-sufficiency (whether at the individual, community or national level)?
Let's take myself as an example. I am a teacher. I have no great financial resources at hand. If I get very lucky and work very hard I *might* end up with a small plot of land and a small off-grid home. Ah, but there are problems. Even a small off-grid home from two of the companies I know of that produce/assist in producing them costs... the same as a conventional home(Earthship). If not more(Enertia). Not much of a solution, is it, given I am essentially middle class and could not afford to build one of these homes? If enery prices go as high as many fear, we have a repeat of what Enron did to California. I never got my money back for that fraud and remember the $400/m utilities vividly. I'm sure my creditors do, too, given a couple of late payments due to the thousands of dollars of extra energy costs.
Or, perhaps you are assuming the poor/newly poor/soon to be poor will just die off, so need not be considered?
Let me run off to La-la Land for a moment with another equation not considered. One wonders how to calculate in Halliburton's contracts for detention centers, the presidential order decreeing the president stands above the other two branches of gov't if the president should choose to call a state of emergency, a very probable collapse in Mexico, etc. If the President is considering collapse scenarios, whether because of terrorism, energy or ?, shouldn't you be?
Cheers
Having large numbers of people build spanking-new off-grid homes can't be the answer. We're out of time, out of money, and out of resources to do it.
What we really need is to remodel, rehab, retrofit all of those existing houses so that they can become super-energy efficient and can take advantage of whatever renewable energy resources might be available.
The really good news is that this doesn't all need to be done in one fell swoop, like building a new house does. You can do it a bit at a time over several years. Furthermore, you can do as much of it yourself as you have the time and ability to handle. These facts lower the affordability bar considerably.
We are just beginning our transition to a permanently sustainable economy. The sooner we get used to the idea, the better. One key reality of sustainable economies is that you make the assets you have last as long as possible: Repair, Reuse, Recycle. That especially includes housing.
Yes it is probable that with your available meagre resources, you won't be able to find a suitable home to rehab that has enough land around it to allow 100% self-sufficiency. Don't worry about it. The idea of 100% self-sufficiency is probably 100% self-delusional for most people, unless they are living on an island at least 5,000 miles from the nearest inhabited land. We are all going to be living amongst other people, interacting with them, and yes, we are going to be mutually interdependent with them. "Relocalization" does not necessarilly mean "self-sufficiency" at the individual household level, nor even at the community level. It does mean doing what you reasonably can to reduce your dependence upon vulnerable food and energy supplies.
* The poor can't afford to replace inefficient boilers
So they will use blankets, sweaters, hats and jackets to keep warm.
* Or trade in their gas guzzlers for Priuses
So they will stop using their vehicle and take the bus, like the SUV drivers who will also be priced out of the market (though more slowly)
* The demand for fuel is pretty flexible.
No it isn't.
Every single member of the commuter class in the USA could take the bus.
* Suburbanties can't all relocate nearer to within working distance of their work.
When the price of gasoline becomes so high that a commute is much more expensive than staying in a hostel close to work they will choose a hostel.
You don't have enough imagination. Take a trip to Europe, get a job there, take mass transit. You will see the kinds of choices you have to make when your work is separated by expensive distance from your home.
People keep forgetting about carpooling, which has the potential of cutting the amount of commuting mileage by 50-75% almost overnight. People just assume that "Americans will never carpool". That must be a different country than the USA I was living in during the late 1970s. I participated in a carpool for a while then, until it became feasible for me to start taking the bus to work. I saw lots and lots of my fellow workers in my employer's parking lot piling into cars at the end of each workday, so it wasn't just me. People were carpooling because the price of energy had gone up so much faster than their pay had. Somehow, I really don't think that human nature has changed all that much over the past three decades.
ps;
As far as Solar Price goes, I've picked up my first 350w of Solar at current prices, since I *highly* doubt that they will be getting cheaper, or that we'll have much opportunity to buy them if those numbers do drop.
$5/watt might seem pretty cheap before too long. Might not, also, but I'm not willing to bank on that.
Bob
It's worth noting that the US government first opposed Victory Gardens, suggesting that individuals would squander precious resources. Only after the movement grew and proved useful in providing a significant amount of food for the home front did the government officially support the project.
Those who do it differently will be made fun of at first.
Another exhibit for that is the harassment that bicyclists and walkers routinely suffer from morons driving past in muscle cars or pickup trucks.
Yet another exhibit: people who have to fight against their HOA or local government to hang out a clothesline, or to plant vegies in the front yard, or to raise a few chickens.
There's one I've experience personally. I commute about 100 miles on a bike each week and on average get at least three shouts and the occasional near sideswipe. The dominant paradigm can be pretty conceited.
As for the chickens, it is possible to keep them in the backyard quietly in suburbia. It is important for those of us making changes in advance of absolute necessity to do so even if those changes are unpopular or even illegal.
Where is it that you're having such problems with cars when riding a bicycle? I've almost been hit before, but never intentionally. It's usually someone taking a corner too tightly and nothing more than that.
NC rural/suburban 2 lane roads. 99% of people are cool. It's that 1% that thinks bicycles don't belong on the road.
In what way is it a good idea? It's a good idea if, in the period of energy downturn before we switch to a new energy base, it works better than some different variant of centralized industrialism. If not, it might have some nostalgia value, but it is not going to be the solution to peak fossil fuels.
The problem with relocalization is that it is not very energy or resource efficient per unit of output. It also will not support advanced and advancing technology. I also see it as sort of giving up. That it assumes once we have exhausted fossil fuels, there are no alternatives that could allow advanced civilization to continue.
I'm really looking forward to a future of eating nutritious goo produced in a vat because that is the most "resource efficient per unit of output". Have you ever considered what "advanced civilisation" taken to it's ultimate economically-efficient conclusion is going to look like?
"I'm really looking forward to a future of eating nutritious goo produced in a vat because that is the most "resource efficient per unit of output". Have you ever considered what "advanced civilisation" taken to it's ultimate economically-efficient conclusion is going to look like?"
I think you are describing a totalitarian "advanced civilization" where you are a member of the underclass. In a capitalist future there will (like today) be winners, nuetrals and losers. Which do you plan to be?
"In a capitalist future there will (like today) be winners, nuetrals and losers."
While in a balanced and productive society, the strong help the weak, not 'carry them' per se, just make sure that they aren't chewed up in the gears of the machine. The whole body of the society understands that if it allows some great portion of itself to 'lose', to get sick, to become unproductive and in constant despair, then the whole society will be sick. Nobody is actually 'winning'.
"The strong help the weak"
Do you think so?
I suspect that a great deal of human nature is primate based. i.e. hierarchical and status driven. Viewed through this lens you can see why many stupid decisions take place today (one primate is challenging another primate to show he's the top monkey) instead of "what's good for the rest".
And part of being the top monkey is taking the most food and resources from the weaker monkeys.
So while, in theory, what you say would conceivably be for the best of all of us I think in actuality human nature trumps logic in this game.
My opinion (and you're welcome to argue with me about it) is that a capitalist system is fairer than a communist system.
The capitalist system recognizes human nature for what it is and allows challenges to take place (i.e. bettering yourself - getting a bigger share of resources by being more efficienct or harder working or whatever).
The other system promises to reward everyone equally and make sure nobody starves, but what happens is it devolves into a winner/loser system anyway as the more savvy figure out how to exploit it for their benefit.
This is also, in my opinion, the crux of the problem we face:
America is the top monkey and is being challenged by the other monkeys.
Will America fight or will America find a way to get all the other monkeys to cooperate while America still takes the largest share of the shrinking pie?
And, of course, a mixed economy is more fair than either of the above systems. Only an idealogue would believe that Paris Hilton or George Bush is "getting a bigger share of resources by being more efficienct or harder working or whatever". In reality, they have benefited from the inherent unfairness of inherited wealth. For this reason, all industrialized countries tax inherited wealth to some degree (no longer pure capitalism), although the Repubs are fighting hard to kill the "death tax" and make sure that none of the Walton kids are cheated out of the billions they are "owed".
Human nature is neither pure "kill or be killed" competition nor blissful communitarian sharing, but some fluctuating mix (as is animal nature also, see tribes of baboons co-operating,etc.). The neo-con propaghandists ignore the fact that most of human history has been in tribal groups where sharing was the norm and private property the aberration, because it conflicts with their religious faith in the "market" god. But the market god has feet of clay, which is why every civilization limits, regulates, and controls markets (not for reasons of ideology, but for reasons of practicality which evolve after painful experience of the effects of uncontrolled markets (1929, tulip bulb bubble,
1800s railroad monopolies and robber barons/child labor, etc.,etc.)).
Did you ever watch a few small birds badger an Eagle out of their range?
America's and PNAC's policy of preventing any other military from challenging ours sounds like the best incentive to move a lot of other Countries to set up their own back-door deals and teach that Eagle 'how to win friends and influence people'
Capitalism's understanding of Human Nature is about as deep as a dog's understanding of a fire hydrant. It sees one dimension, one role. Communism? I just said a functioning and fair society, didn't I? How did that bring you to communism, unless you know something you're not telling me.
Of course the Strong protect and support the weak. The slow-learners get extra instruction from a patient and underpaid special-ed teacher, until the program is cut by someone who thinks his primate ancestry somehow justifies it.
"Soylent Green is people!"
I was talking to a Swedish woman about her town (Linkoping), and of American 'Drive-thru' society. She said she bikes into town, and can walk to whatever she needs from there.. and that the 'Convenience of Driving to Everything here in the US is basically inconvenient by comparison..'
I don't think that international trade will be going away, any more than the transistors and radios as I described upthread, but there are all sorts of economies gained by boosting local businesses, reducing massive interstate shipping, (reducing, not eliminating) and rebuilding more direct business and personal relationships within communities.
"not very energy or resource efficient per unit of output"
Oh, How? That one was straight out of your tuchus. The 'per unit of output' that we get from High Markup Industrial Tomatoes and Breakfast Cereal results in great earnings, but also a steadily decaying food value.. by virtue of mass production, heat processing, long-term storage, travel and shelftime, etc.. the Corpor-Eats that we buy at the A&P are leached of most of the nutritional value a consumer thinks they should be getting for their food dollar.
"It also will not support advanced and advancing technology"
..you're just making stuff up!
Localization is hardly 'Giving up'.. Going to the IGA and the Bennigan's and accepting that your food grows on styrofoam trays is much more 'Giving up'.
The trouble is, we needed to be working seriously on those alternatives twenty years ago. A few people were saying this, but they were ignored. Even today, with the crisis upon us, the ostrich with its head in the sand looks like a more accurate symbol for our country than the eagle. This hardly inspires optimism. Given this, it is not at all unreasonable to assume a pessimistic outlook, and to assume that the hard things that needed to be done yesterday are not going to suddenly start being done today or tomorrow either, and to plan accordingly.
One of the assumptions in this relocalization article and in relocalization arguments made at the oildrum is usually that the suburbs will die and people will move to be closer to farms or other things.
One of the many other possibilities is vertical farming in cities and suburbs
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/01/las-vegas-to-build-worlds-first-30.html
meat factories using stem cells
http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/07/aquaculture-meat-factories-and-vertical...
There is also the assumption that if oil starts to fall that the only or most successful mitigation is relocalization.
- electrification of cars and trucks and trains
Ultracapacitor and battery combinations look they could bring down the costs of plug in hybrid and plug electric cars
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/01/ultrabattery-combines-supercapacitor.html
- high EROEI conversion of waste or generation of algae or switchgrass based biofuels
- lighter vehicles
electric bikes, scooters, aptera (300mpg car)
- more non-fossil fuel power generation
nuclear fission (current gen 3 and 3.5 buildout), advanced nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, kitegen for wind, geothermal etc...
- mitigation (for a longer and safer transition period) with enhanced oil recovery and more drilling (ANWR, gulf etc...), more natural gas
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/01/natural-gas-discovery-and-waste.html
- flex fuel and natural gas cars
- robotic driving to enable extensive platooning (vehicles that draft and are more efficient)
- home energy efficiency
http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/12/optimum-cost-efficiency-for-home-energy...
- industrial efficiency
(superconductors, direct current for long distances, thermoelectric, process improvement)
All good stuff! I'd just like to add that it doesn't take much improvement on what we already know how to do to have a perfectly acceptable energy situation in an advanced economy.
Residential solar thermal panels are here now, and can provide a lot of hot water usage, with fairly decent insulation.
Geothermal heat pumps are proven technology, and could mean that demand was much reduced, and you could even grow more food in heated greenhouses in cold climates with minimal greenhouse gas emissions.
Nuclear fission is entirely capable of providing all the energy you need, with reprocessing as practised in France, and the introduction of modestly more advanced reactors such as the planned Fuji reactor, which burns up to 50% of fuel as against 1% currently:
http://advancednano.blogspot.com/search/label/thorium
(pinched from your own website!)
The reason why you could use nuclear for just about everything is that during slack times it would be powering up electric cars:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/01/ultrabattery-combines-supercapacitor.html
Agrichar and pyrolysis could provide some biofuels and start restoring soil fertility:
http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/biochar/Biochar_home.htm
So none of this is pie in the sky stuff, just the application of things which we already know how to do- no major breakthroughs required.
World Changing is probably the best known promoter of these sorts of technical strategies that I am aware of:
http://www.worldchanging.com/
I don't spend a whole lot of time evaluating all these potential technological responses but do expect at least some of them to come on board. The issue for me is the rate of implementation compared to the rate of need given resource constraints and negative externalities, including climate change.
In some respects, relocalization is also about hedging ones bets. It takes the pressure off the system while it tries to adjust, and if the system fails to cope it provides something to fall back on more fully.
Don't forget the potential for advance software and communications to reduce the need for travel and commuting and improve the efficiency of the travel and goods shipment that we still do.
Just to clarify, this is an assumption I explicitly *do not* make - the reason I believe in 100 million farmers, rather than Heinberg's 50 million is that I think we're going to have to grow our food, to the extent we are able to, where we live now. That doesn't mean that I don't advocate the deindustrialization of agriculture, just that I believe the aggregate is that most of the farmers are going to be *very* small farmers, making use of small plots, open lots, suburban yards, corporate greenspace, etc...
The Pimentel-Giampietro estimates for US land availability
http://www.dieoff.org/page55.htm
by 2050 suggest that we're going to *HAVE* to farm the existing suburbs and wherever else we can - so I've spent a lot of time arguing against Kunstler's/The End of Suburbia's suggestion that we're all going to abandon the present cities and suburbs and move off to the country.
That's not to say that I don't think it would be wise, for a host of reasons, to move to smaller farms with more farmers as well - if only because I believe as we lose land to desertification, drought and growth, we're going to need to switch from a model that emphasizes efficiency per farmer to one that emphasizes maximum output per acre
(see Rosset, "Small is Bountiful" for an introduction on this point: http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/Small-Farm-Benefits-Rosset.htm)
- or have people go hungry. But saying I believe it would be wise is not the same as saying I think it would be likely.
Sharon
Sharon:
As I have posted elsewhere on this thread and on Stuart's, I think part of the problem is the use of the word "farmer". There is a whole spectrum of possibilities in between the full-time professional farmer on the one hand and the totally dependent, non-food growing consumer on the other. When you and others talk about 50 or 100 million people becoming farmers, I believe that what we should actually mean is that these people are going to have to become "food growers", at least on a part-time "amateur" basis. That is not at all the same thing as becoming a 100% full-time professional farmer.
I do believe that if you set a Park Avenue lawyer and socialite down on 40 or 100 acres in the middle of what they had been calling "flyover land", what you are going to end up seeing will be a whole lot less funny and far less productive than "Green Acres" ever was. Not a good idea. I am certain that you are not advocating that, and I doubt if very many other people are, either. I'll bet that such people could be trained to put in their fair share of time helping at a local community garden, though. I think you ARE advocating something like that, as am I.
Would you care to give some examples.
One that turned out to be temporary but which may return in the next decades: Zaire 1960-1980. Perhaps the capital and also Kinsangani built up during that period but some of the road network and factories in the eastern part decayed -- with a full spectrum of workarounds by the people in the process of getting control of their lives. Then in more recent times as the country, even with all its problems, managed to develop its infrastructure.
The BBC series narration made the connection to Britain after the Roman period, before it built back up during the middle ages.
Deindustrialisation on a large scale won't happen by choice, but when things break down and cannot be repaired and therefore must be replaced by a less complicated workaround.
Russia and Cuba were referenced as cases of reversal.
I'm afraid I don't find Russia and Cuba very convincing examples. Correct me if I'm wrong, but was realignment of economic policy in Russia not aimed at and is succeeding in delivering greater industrial based prosperity. When did Russia de-industrialise?
I'm not sure that Cuba (and Zaire) could ever be counted as properly industrialised nations.
Curiously Soviet Union and Cuba were both subject to centralised economic control and it was the inefficiency of that control that led to downfall - temporary in the case of Russia.
Where this leads is to the more interesting debate about the ability of market forces to deliver solutions to energy decline. I believe this lay close to the heart of Stuart's article. One needs to remember that the bio-fuels disaster has been brought upon us by the do-gooding faction of the what is broadly known as the "environmental movement" - in theory it has nothing to do with peak oil or energy decline. This same "movement" seems set to deliver the equal disaster of carbon sequestration.
And I have to voice concerns that an emotive debate about country loving small farmers taking over agriculture may also result in a disaster. We need cool headed quantitative analysis - Stuart was at least trying to deliver on that front - and he may be wrong on certain counts.
There are many facets to "relocalisation" and energy decline. It goes without saying that compact cities with minimal commutes on electrified public transport and far greater production of food local to the market will be energetically more efficient and therefore desirable. But I am not convinced that "de-industrialisation" of agriculture and a mass movement of city dwellers back to the land is either the best solution, necessary or a likely outcome to energy decline.
I was not seeking to support the writer of the article that Russia or Cuba are good examples, just replying that those were two of the examples given.
'I'm afraid I don't find Russia and Cuba very convincing examples. Correct me if I'm wrong, but was realignment of economic policy in Russia not aimed at and is succeeding in delivering greater industrial based prosperity. When did Russia de-industrialise?'
the problem is here is that the original article is rather long, and it is easy to miss bits.
The de-industrialisation referred to was after 1989, not in the thirties.
Dave - my comments are really targeted at the author of the piece. Since this is the deepest weakness in Staniford's "argument" - I sure as Hell expect her to show up with a handful of excellent examples of "reversal" to which she refers.
Agreed
Euan, Sharon mentions examples many times, in her essay. It's very long and maybe you just skimmed it. Here is one relevant section, but there are more if you care to look:
One of the mysteries of PO is that people treat it like a transcendant being onto which are projected all their most cherished beliefs and hopes for the future.
Right. Like it will solve all the ills of industrialization and overpopulation. So maybe we can use it as an excuse to kill off 4-5 billion people. To accomplish this, we can suspend critical thinking.
Sterling said, speaking of peak oil,
"Right. Like it will solve all the ills of industrialization and overpopulation. So maybe we can use it as an excuse to kill off 4-5 billion people"
Yeah, or JHK's seeming belief that after Peak Oil, all the architecture will suddenly become beautiful....PO is the princess that kisses away the ugly building frog! :-)
RC
Show me the money!!!! That's my most cherished belief.
Stop farming to feed your kids and just go long crude oil, hayseed!!
The above is flat wrong, at least in the US. Corn ethanol has been questioned or opposed by main-line environmental groups like the Sierra Club, but the major supporters have been the Bush administration and their corporate buddies at Archer-Daniels-Midland, Monsanto, and the like. If you redefine the "environmental movement" to include George Bush, the term ceases to have any meaning.
From http://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/200701/decoder.asp
"If every vehicle in the United States were powered by ethanol, only one of eight would be driveable. Already, 20 percent of the nation's corn goes to ethanol production. Replacing just one-eighth of U.S. gasoline consumption would require the country's entire corn crop.
Corn-based ethanol's contribution to fighting global warming is marginal at best. A debate is raging, in fact, over whether ethanol takes more energy to produce than it provides."
Tommy - my apologies to other factions of the environmental movement who understand how destructive bio-fuels are. But it makes me want to puke every day when I hear on the MSM about environmentally friendly bio-fuels. In the UK we have hoards of politicians carrying environmental credentials crowing about bio-fuels every day.
So its time for the broad environment movement to stand up and start shouting as loudly as they can about this injustice that is in progress.
And to then do same with carbon sequestration.
Do you think that relocalisation of agriculture is a good universal response to FF energy decline? I don't know the answer to that and this article sure as Hell doesn't help clarify the issue. But I am concerned at a major emotive response carrying the day and driving us off towards yet another cliff edge.
I'm not sure there are any "good universal responses" but as energy gets more scarce, agricultural systems that conserve energy in production, transportation, and processing will be natural adaptations. As a 30+ year vegetarian, eating low on the food chain already makes sense to me, for my health and my finances. Science has been catching up to intuition for a few decades, with the ever-growing emphasis on the health advantages of fruits and vegetables.
Maybe the practioners of re-localization are emotional, but the current practices of industrial agriculture are un-sustainable and will inevitably change. I don't think graphs of the last few years trends are particularly useful in predicting the future of agriculture, any more than graphs of Dow Jones history can be used to project future stock market trends.
Hi Euan
You are in good company, but it seems you are guilty of letting the media's selective bias cloud your opinion of what the 'environmental movement' stands for. Just because ‘politicians’ stand up and claim a biofuel as environmentally friendly does not mean any significant environmental group, political or otherwise, would agree with them.
I’ve got a long history with the Australian and Scottish Greens and several other environmental and social justice groups. I’m continually amazed at the ‘doublespeak’ that our conservative politicians get away with, transforming appalling public policy into leading edge sustainability with a few simple utterances.
It’s true that some environmental groups are occasionally short on scientists and engineers, but that’s something I and many others try to bring to them. Most of these groups are having pretty intellectual debates about the role of biofuels and are well aware of the shortcomings of the current crop, so to speak. Likewise for Carbon Capture and Sequestration, which has few friends in the environmental movement. Most see it as token money for big coal so government and business can say they are doing something about the problem, but meanwhile continue with business as usual for another twenty years. That's certainly the way it looks for Victoria's Latrobe Valley brown coal and cheap electricity industry.
The media exists to frame the debate with conflicting views, and to undermine these progressive voices which are a threat to their treasured status quo. The Australian Greens have been particularly attacked in the media, through mis-representation of their drugs policy. What they have is progressive, evidence based policy which is well supported by research and experience from around the world. But people who would otherwise vote for the Greens refuse here in Oz because they think it will result in a drug infused youth patrolling the streets.
The ‘environmental movement’ is no more to blame for how their case is presented by the media than we and the highly organised ‘peak oil movement’ are to blame for the way the peak oil debate is framed by the media – eg we’re wrong every time the price of oil goes down. Robert Rapier’s concern about not wanting to mention peak oil as possibly here now is the same debate the Australian Greens have about watering down their drugs policy so as not to present a target to the media. Managing the media is critical, but if the Greens were to change their policies, then we lose.
It pains me to hear people that I respect judging these groups by what they hear in the media, rather than forming an opinion based on looking at what they really stand for. Attack the neo-liberal politicians for all you are worth, but the environmental needs our help and our knowledge.
Cheers
Phil.
That negative comment about environmentalists annoyed me, too. In my Midwestern corn state, one of the largest ethanol farmers is a Republican senator who consistently votes against environmental concerns.
Stuart's article uses graphs to represent something that hasn't even begun, yet. The price of food will increase, the price of energy will increase, and we will be growing our own crops because we will be too poor to have it shipped to us.
Robert Rapier’s concern about not wanting to mention peak oil as possibly here now is the same debate the Australian Greens have about watering down their drugs policy so as not to present a target to the media.
That's not exactly right. I have no problem with arguing that the wolf is at the door. My problem is when people use very circumstantial evidence to say definitively "We have peaked." The consequences of being wrong on that 2nd point are significant, in my opinion. Each time of being wrong diminishes the chances that you will be taken seriously the next time around.
I think the reason a lot of people see no problem with going on the record is that they think there really is no chance we haven't peaked. Otherwise, they would be more cautious. But based on November's numbers, I think it is highly likely that we will see a new C+C peak in December, just as we saw a new all liquids peak. That's just fresh ammunition for the critics.
Is my argument that we are near very peaking less compelling than the argument that we peaked last year? I don't think so. But the "we peaked last year" group will have a tough time selling it if it turns out that we didn't really peak last year, but we might in 2 years. "Oh yeah?", asks the skeptic. "Didn't you say that the last time?"
And won't we be just overjoyed if CERA gets to smirk about 'Someone Else's' predictive stumbles, one more time?
Yeah, the proof can hold on until it's clear. The preparations are what's vital. Getting things in place that might well become 'unfundable' when the downslope becomes really clear to everyone. Take advantage of this energy while we can, to get some of the standby's on line.. (ie, Massive Buildout of Solar Home and Water Heating.. would shed great quantities of Oil, NG and KWH from our daily demand)
Would take a lot of Glass and Copper, probably a lot of Glycol (propylene or ethylene).. but most of that material would be durable, once in place.
Bob
RR:
I hope this also works the other way - that when it has finally been established beyond all reasonable doubt that we are clearly post-peak, that those that had doubted that peak oil was hardly even possible, let alone close at hand, will be every bit as thoroughly discredited as those that made the call a little prematurely.
Unfortunately, seeing the doubters discredited will be little comfort or help for those of us (i.e., most of humanity) that must cope with the consequences of obstructed and delayed mitigation efforts.
I argue Peak Conventional Oil Exports. And I think that there is minimal risk that narrow definition has not peaked.
We have had 2.6 years of domestic demand growth in oil exporters since May 2005 (and Russia uses a lot of heating oil in the winter, KSA burns crude for electricity now, etc.) so I see little chance that any new conventional crude production peak will exceed the May 2005 peak in, say April 2008. In the winter months, Russian exports will be affected by winter weather (and a cold snap in Saudi certainly spiked demand there).
Alan
Hello Phil - I think for starters it is necessary to acknowledge that the Environmental movement is an extremely broad church and it is wrong to generalise about the activity of the whole based on the activity of a small part. No doubt the majority of environmentalists seek to do good for their communities and Planet Earth. The problem is that despite these good intentions the global environment continues to deteriorate and it is a fact that many global energy policies today are being driven by the GW CO2 agenda - and this is an agenda that has been created by one group of environmentalists - and continues to be supported by this sub-set even if many others disagree with the policies being pursued. One way or another the environmental lobby has given us bio-fuels, is about deliver totally pointless CO2 sequestration in Europe, has raised objections to nuclear power and minority groups have opposed wind turbines.
And so I think it is quite important to ask the question "is whole sale relocalisation of agriculture an energy efficient way of managing our future environment and nutritional needs?" Is it economically and socially workable, is it desirable? Or is this another mad cap idea flowing from a sub-set of the environmental mind? Or is it the salvation of Homo Sapiens?
Re-localisation itself covers an enormous range of issues. Just focussing on agriculture there are very many energy savings to be made through gradual with drawl from the global food trade, reduced use of chemicals, reduced mechanisation etc where vast energy savings may be made without impacting productivity and which may deliver incremental environmental improvements. All this can be done through evolution of our current agricultural system - which has fed us and kept us free of hunger for many decades.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but is it not the case that the broad environmental movement wants agriculture to change for environmental reasons? I would tend to look at this from a security of food supply angle - where environmental considerations are just one thread of the whole analysis. It may turn out that whole sale relocalisation is the only answer - in which case I would favour that option. But I do not see that the case has been made yet.
The relocalisation movements like Transition Towns are doing a great job and there are many benefits to flow from this and i strongly support this in its own right. They are a good idea on a precautionary basis. But anyone getting involved in growing their own food because they have been told the shelves will be empty in 2020 may be disappointed when life continues / advances - using a lot less energy. Of course, if they are right then they will be robbed.
Don't be too pained Phil. I refer to do gooders with good intentions. However, good intentions are not good enough - good outcomes are all that matters. I think its time for the environment movement in its very broad sense to stand up and be counted. It seems to me that we are inheriting a range of very shitty outcomes - with which it seems no one on the environment side of the debate wants to be associated.
Here are the ways I have identified how my local farm contributes to reducing the energy inputs to food production, distribution, processing, storage and cooking.
Brookside Farm
Details of how the concepts of Reduce Consumption and Produce Locally are applied to intensive vegetable cultivation in 2007
• Common fossil fuel input to soil cultivation is gasoline powered rototiller or small tractor. Alternative tool set implemented: Glazer hoe, broadfork, adze, rake and human labor. After system is established it may produce sufficient vegetables for 20 people by the labor of 1 full-time person.
• Common fossil fuel input to soil fertility is in-organic or imported organic fertilizer. Alternatives implemented include: growing of highly productive, nitrogen and biomass crop (banner fava beans), making aerobic compost piles sufficient to build soil carbon and nitrogen fertility, re-introducing micro-nutrients by importing locally generated food waste and processing in a worm bin, and application of compost teas for microbiology enhancement.
• Common fossil fuel inputs to pest and weed management are herbicide and pesticide applications. Alternatives implemented include companion planting, crop rotation, crop diversity and spatial heterogeneity, beneficial predator attraction through landscape plantings, emphasis on soil and plant health, and manual removal with efficient human-scaled tools.
• Common fossil fuel input to seed sourcing is bulk ordering of a few varieties through centralized seed development and distribution outlets. Alternative implemented includes: sourcing seeds from local supplier, developing a seed saving and local production and distribution plan using open pollinated varieties.
• Common fossil fuel input to food distribution include: produce trucks, refrigeration, long-distance transport, eating out of season. Alternative implemented includes: produce only sold locally, direct from farm or hauled to local restaurants or grocers using bicycles or electric vehicles, produce grown with year-round consumption in mind with farm delivering large quantities of food in winter months.
• Common fossil fuel input to storage and processing at production end include: preparation of food for long distance transport, storage and retailing requiring energy intensive cooling, drying, food grade wax and packaging. Alternatives implemented include passive evaporative cooling, solar dehydrating, root cellaring and re-usable storage baskets and bags.
• Common fossil fuel inputs to home and institutional storage and cooking include: natural gas, propane or electric fired stoves and ovens, electric freezers and refrigerators. Alternatives implemented include: solar ovens, promotion of eating fresh and seasonal foods, home-scale evaporative cooling for summer preservation and “root cellaring” techniques for winter storage.
Understanding the issues and setting up the alternative, potentially sustainable systems are very challenging intellectually, organizationally and physically. This kind of work requires the highest standards of research, implementation and critical feedback.
Awesome! I wish I could get myself to even 25% of the way to where you are. There is so much to do.
I think we are largely on the same page, then, although I suspect that big ag is going to find that it cannot just continue operating as is. The increasing scarcity and rising prices of not just oil but all FF, and indeed all non-renewable resources (and even of supposedly renewable resources like water), will certainly have profound and unexpected consequences as their implications work their way through our complex economy. Farmers will find that they must do some things differently, and those things requiring change might have nothing to do with fuel for the tractors. I cannot predict with any confidence what exactly those changes will be, but I can predict with a fairly high degree of confidence that there will be change.
Whether or not those changes will drive an increase in the amount of labor inputs going into large-scale farm production (which seems to really be the crux of the issue that we are arguing around here) is at present unpredictible. A simple econ 101 analysis would suggest that as energy supplies became more scarce and expensive, the supplies of alternatives (including human and animal labor) would become relatively less expensive; thus demand for energy would decrease as demand for human and animal labor as a substitute increased. The real world is rarely as simple as an economics textbook, though, and undoubtedly it is a lot more complicated than that. There are other advantages to mechanized agriculture besides mere cost; farmers have been known to utilize mechanized alternatives even when cheaper human or animal labor was available. On the other hand, there have been cases where farmers were slow to adopt available mechanization due to an overly abundant and overly cheap labor force (antebellum cotton fields worked by slaves comes to mind). I'm not sure where the economic tipping point is, or where or when we might reach it. I'm not at all sure that we can rule out altogether any possibility that we might ever pass that tipping point.
On the other hand, as I mentioned in a post in response to Stuart's article, I think we need to understand that there is a spectrum of possibilities between the full-time professional farmer on one hand and the pure consumer in the middle. My take on the relocalization movement is that it is not about everyone becoming full-time professional farmers (which certainly is a sure recipe for disaster), but rather about most people becoming food producers, to the extent that they are able. In practice, the relocalization movement envisions most people becoming gardeners and growing at least some of their own fruits and vegetables. Some of these people would be able to grow enough to become self-sufficient in food, fewer numbers would be able to become market gardeners and produce a surplus for sale, and a very few would be able to produce enough to live off it full time. We tend to only think of that last category as being "farmers" today, and the relocalization vision only implies a modest increase in their numbers. In terms of people involved to SOME extent in the production of SOME food, however, that fifty million figure would in fact be far too low, but otherwise could be quite credible.
WNC - indeed I think we are on the same page. I agree with most of not all you say here. The important point is that there is a vast spectrum of "local food production" from the elimination of importing grapes (to the UK) from Chile to growing spuds in your back garden.
Encouraging folks to garden is undoubtedly a good idea - but this is pretty much in line with using energy saving mercury filled light bulbs. It helps at the margin but does not confront the main issue of FF energy decline.
IMO, the message to get over to politicians is food security. Can we feed our own population on the land we have and with the energy we can gather on a sustainable basis? If not, what do we need to do to achieve this?
WNC
I cannot predict with any confidence what exactly those changes will be, but I can predict with a fairly high degree of confidence that there will be change
That's a great statement. I was just thinking on everyone doing whatever they are able to do like you said. And I am thinking of those who live south of the San Fran - Norfork Va latitude US. It get's 100f degrees in the summer. How many office workers will be able not just want to, work 5-8 hours outside period, not even talking about being gardening/farming.
How about the southeast with the drought? How would that affect the total amount produced by the backyard gardener? Nobody is into rain water collecting or any easily done conservation/sustainable practices.
The south is going to be HOT. AND the current population of the south thinks Air Conditioning is a Pre-Req. and god given right.
They are going to have a reality experience without it in 5-15 years.
How do all of these things play and interact together?
As you said;
"...but I can predict with a fairly high degree of confidence that there will be change"
We have to all temper our projections and understand that we are all blind men describing an elephant. We all know he's big, but we can't agree on much after that.
I live in an area of the southeast currently affected by drought conditions. People *are* getting into rain water harvesting. (I've been doing it on a small scale for years.) Farmers *are* talking about the ability of healthy soil to hold more moisture. I am sure droughts, floods, hurricanes and other natural disasters will continue to affect my region of the country and other regions as well. Sharing food with such regions during such times will continue to be important. I wouldn't write of the southeast though.
Interestingly I never hear this from southerners, only from others who don't live in the south or have recently moved here. Yes, it gets hot here- looks like it might get hotter. Hot isn't that hard to deal with though. Take of your shoes, drink plenty of water and don't over do it during the hottest part of the day. Of course the elderly and children have to be looked after. And yes it takes getting used to but it's not that big of a deal, if you're smart about it.
I'm 32 and I remember going to grade school, in August, without air conditioning. We would grumble if all air conditioning disappeared overnight but it wouldn't be the end of the south. Mostly it seems to be a concern other parts of the country worry about for us. ;-)
Except that up here in the mountains it doesn't get nearly that hot. With time it might get a little warmer in the summer, but the mountains will always be quite a bit cooler than the lowlands. Lots of people in my area don't have a/c, and all of us COULD live without it if necessary.
As for drought, yes, it is a bit dry around here, but we have been getting some precipitation. The mountains usually do wring out whatever the winds are carrying. The long term models call for us to maintain our averages, though there will undoubtedly be more variability.
That doesn't help the rest of the SE, but it is just to point out that the SE is not this undifferentiated land mass that some people imagine it to be.
Obviously, the classic example is Japan giving up the gun for several centuries. They had advanced to the point where they could make them rather than importing them. Then they decided that they didn't want guns, so they banned them. By the time they were legal again, they had to learn from scratch how to make them. This was a political decision, of course; but it DID happen.
Jane Jacobs mentions in Cities and the Wealth of Nations the example of a small hamlet in a very isolated part of the Southern Appalachians. Their ancestors knew how to weave with a loom (and how to make the looms), build with stone, etc. As the generations passed in isolation, there was a progressive giving up of these technologies until there was no one left that knew how to do them.
Jacobs also mentions the numerous cases of islands populated by people who do not know how to make and use boats, although the island was only accessible by boat.
A number of ancient Roman technologies were lost with the collapse of their empire, and were only rediscovered or reinvented centuries later.
I believe that several of Diamond's case studies in Collapse also contain relevant examples.
The most well-researched and implemented life strategy ever developed was the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Millions of years of research created a life where food simply grew instead of us growing food. Man's hubris has enabled such flawed thinking as evidenced by Staniford, the idea that returning to the most well-researched lifestyle, or at least getting as close as possible, is regressive. This is pure sophistry on his part and indicative of the animal that claims it is not an animal.
We will detechnologize, we will relocalize, we will return to a more simple time whether we make these airy arguments or not. The primary fallacy employed both in Staniford's arguments and Astyk's is the fallacy that thought equals action. Simple physics puts the lie to both their arguments--both Astyk's gradualism and hedging and Staniford's outright poor reasoning and obfuscation.
We are destroying the planet and since we are part of that planet, since we are just another animal on this planet, we are destroying ourselves. At some point, barring a complete breakdown in the cycle of life, we WILL absolutely find ourselves where Staniford thinks we cannot go. It may be in 100 years or 10,000, but we will get there. The only real choice is do we use our fabulous energy wealth to constructively make the u-turn in the technological cul-de-sac, or do we destructively make that turn?
It does not take a single equation or equivocation to see this simple physical truth. I fear that those people who are so egotistically attached to their sweetheart science religion and those who fear being called a Luddite or a "reversalist" will rob the argument of coherence and will mire it into the sanctimonious parsing they are want to do instead of actually doing something that needs to be done.
I have little faith that either will take heed. I believe that humanity will continue on just as it has since the birth of agriculture, destroying the planet in order to support more people, then having to destroy more planet to support the more people the additional tech or land created until the planet quits. Gives up. Shakes her beautiful locks and cocks her head at the insane creatures who willfully destroyed her for a handful of abstractions.
Nice work.
"The primary fallacy employed both in Staniford's arguments and Astyk's is the fallacy that thought equals a