DrumBeat: March 13, 2008
Posted by Leanan on March 13, 2008 - 9:13am
Topic: Miscellaneous
The Peak Oil Crisis: The Last Spiral?
Events are moving faster and faster. Equity markets and the dollar are dropping. Oil, gas, diesel and commodities are surging as the investment of last resort.Margin calls are endangering the financial system. Real estate values and markets are falling. Exotic debt obligations are turning worthless by the billions. Central bankers have started the printing presses and are injecting unprecedented billions of “liquidity” into their banking systems in what so far seems to be a futile effort.
One by one, however, talking heads appear on the business channels to assure us that all will be well by the “third quarter” and that this is a lifetime opportunity to buy equities which will never again be a better bargain. In recent days however, some of the tone of optimistic confidence that has obtained for the last eight months has started to darken a bit and some will even confess it might be a little longer before the good times return.
Missing from all this talk is a realistic appreciation of the role of oil in the world’s economy and the role increasing oil prices will play in the coming economic “recovery.” Although oil prices are discussed dozens of times each day, increases are nearly always attributed to a temporary flight of capital from equities into the safety of commodities. Discussions are formulated around the premise that high oil prices may be unpleasant, but are, as yet, a long way from doing real harm to the country. Eight or nine dollar gasoline in Europe is cited as proof that prices can go much higher without disastrous consequences.
Gas, oil rise to records as dollar falls
NEW YORK - Gas and oil prices jumped again to new highs Thursday as the dollar weakened, although crude's advanced limited by fresh evidence of a U.S. economic slowdown....Light sweet crude for April delivery rose 41 cents to settle at a record $110.33 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange Thursday after earlier surging to a new trading record of $111.
Schlesinger: No Energy Security in Sight
James Schlesinger, who was the nation's first secretary of energy, had a grim analysis of the nation's current energy predicament this morning at an energy summit in Washington, D.C., sponsored by the National Academy of Sciences. Schlesinger, now a senior adviser to Lehman Brothers and chairman of the nonprofit engineering organization Mitre, predicted that energy prices would continue to rise and declared that the United States would never see energy independence as long as it depended on the internal combustion engine. Excerpts from his remarks...
Who gets rich off $3 gas - who doesn't
The guy running the service station makes just a few cents, while crude oil producers take the biggest chunk.
Speculation makes oil prices rise
If we lived in a world where oil was a normal commodity, competition would dictate that margins hover just above the cost of production, which is estimated between $20-$30 per barrel on average. At the time of writing, oil is trading around $108 with a one-year high forecast of $141. Regardless of the many reasons consumers are given, billions in profits for oil producers are obvious.
Pirate Attacks On the Rise in Nigerian Waters
Pirate attacks in the waters of Africa's largest oil producer, Nigeria, have surged in recent weeks, linked to a decline in general security in the southern oil-producing region. A leading international worker's union wants the waters to be declared a war zone.
Australia: State puts brakes on petrol bikes
IN a world of rising fuel prices and climate change awareness, these petrol-powered bicycles are seen by some as the way of the future.But not, it appears, by the State Government which has outlawed them on roads.
Canada: Please buy our dirty oil
CANADIANS like to think that although they are the junior partner in their trade relations with the United States, the 174 billion barrels of proven reserves in the oil sands of Alberta provide a powerful ace up their sleeve in any dealings with their energy-hungry neighbour. That belief has now been shaken by an American law that appears to prohibit American government agencies from buying crude produced in the oil sands of the western province.
Bruce Power sees four reactors in Alberta
OTTAWA — Bruce Power says it wants to build as many as four nuclear reactors in northwestern Alberta to meet the province's growing electricity needs — and it is not committed to choosing Atomic Energy of Canada Ltd.'s ACR design.
Kazakhstan wants Russian giant Gazprom to pay more for the transit of Turkmen and Uzbek gas in 2009 when the latter states start charging more for their gas, the head of the Kazakh state energy firm said today.Gazprom said last week it had agreed to buy gas from Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan at prices close to that it charges European customers, minus transport and other costs.
"If the gas we buy becomes more expensive then, logically, the tariff will also grow," Uzakbai Karabalin, head of state oil and gas firm KazMunaiGas told Reuters.
S. Africa's Sapref, Engen refineries hit by storm
JOHANNESBURG (Reuters) - BP Plc and Royal Dutch Shell Plc said on Thursday their South African Sapref oil refinery, the largest in the country, had shut down after lighting hit the facility on Tuesday.BP South Africa spokesman Sam Mupanemunda said boilers in the utility section of the 180,000 barrel-a-day refinery had tripped, automatically shutting down the facility in the port city of Durban on Wednesday.
How plastics industry battles bans on its bags
When San Francisco became the first U.S. city to prohibit large grocery stores and pharmacies from distributing disposable plastic bags in March 2007, it appeared to have sparked a trend. At least a dozen other cities, counties and states were soon considering proposals to ban or severely restrict distribution of what many environmentalists consider a wasteful and harmful product.The plastics industry had no intention of allowing the San Francisco model to spread without a fight, though. It quickly and quietly joined with retailers and other business interests and launched a successful counterattack, using lobbying muscle to quash proposed bans.
Despite the free fall in housing prices nationwide, green homes are still red hot.
Three Ways to Play Money Morning’s Prediction That Oil Prices Will Reach $187 a Barrel
A plummeting greenback, inflationary fears fanned by the U.S. central bank and soaring global demand are combining to fuel a record advance in crude oil prices.But the market madness of recent days is just the start. Crude oil prices will hit $187 a barrel within 36 months, translating into gasoline prices of more than $6 a gallon, and giving investors one of their biggest profit opportunities in decades, Money Morning Investment Director Keith Fitz-Gerald predicts.
Let us venture into a political no-go zone and say that, at some point in the not too distant future, there is a bitter pill that we will need to swallow -- and we are getting just a foretaste with the current energy crisis. In a nutshell, our global growth-based economic model is fundamentally unsustainable.This is not a new idea -- it dates back to the early 1970s. At that time there was much debate around energy and sustainability, coupled with a search for alternatives. One seminal work published in 1972 was The Limits to Growth, commissioned by The Club of Rome.
IEA to hold oil price talks with experts
"The IEA is holding a round table on oil price formation on Monday 17 March," at its headquarters, the IEA said in an email."The meeting is part of ongoing work at the IEA to understand the complex process of price formation," it said, adding the meeting would be closed to the public.
Canada: Gas tax could help combat our oil dependency
With fuel taxes in Alberta already low at only 20¢ per litre, completely eliminating the gas tax couldn’t even bring it below $1.20 per litre. Oil companies would have no incentive to raise production even though cheaper gas means more driving, so the price of gas goes right back up—except now it’s all going to the oil companies.
If you still have a car with a gasoline engine you're eventually going to pay $10 per gallon if you want to drive anywhere. It's as simple as that. Take heart, E-85 will probably only be $9.60!
Stop complaining about gas prices!
We will never see cheap gas prices ever again - that bears repeating - NEVER AGAIN. All those quaint little anecdotes from my dad about how gas was 25 cents a gallon back in the day enabling him to fill up his big ol' 1964 Chevy Impala for under $5 are ancient history. People are laying blame everywhere for the $1.05-plus-per-litre prices. We're running out of oil, they say. They point to emerging markets like India and China and blame them for taking all that precious black goo. Or maybe the government is too greedy, taking half of what you pay at the pump in taxes.I have a different theory - good old-fashioned human greed prompted by Hurricane Katrina. A little human inactivity helped the situation nicely as well.
We need new transportation paradigm
Consider the following bad news for travel by automobile:The Department of Energy forecasts that gasoline prices are expected to stay over $3 for two years. Beyond that, a Governmental Accounting Office study acknowledges that eventually world production of oil will fall behind demand (so-called peak oil), potentially leading to economic disruption. The only question is timing, and the GAO acknowledges it could happen soon.
Venezuela Plans New 'Sudden Gains' Oil Tax Soon
Venezuela plans a new tax on foreign oil companies of 20%-25% on what the government deems to be "sudden gains" from strong fluctuations in world oil prices, a lawmaker said Wednesday."The tax will be anywhere between 20% and 25% of what we deem sudden gains," lawmaker Iroshima Bravo told Dow Jones Newswires. "We're studying various examples of the tax, and this should be ready soon."
Thailand: Oil subsidies are only good in the short term
Poonpirom Liptapanlop, the Energy Minister, has sent a strong signal that it is time for Thai people to learn to live with the era of high oil prices. The oil prices are beyond anybody's control, as oil is the most important global commodity. Although the government may be able to provide some relief, at the end of the day, the Thai people must learn to cope with the high prices on their own. Most analysts now believe that oil prices won't fall again.
Pakistan: Fuel crisis feared during May, June
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan may face a fuel crisis in the coming months as the oil marketing companies (OMCs) have informed the incumbent regime about their inability to book import orders for the POL products due to financial constraints, a senior government official told The News."The government owes Rs 61 billion to the OMCs against the price differential claim (PDC) that has been accumulated since long. The petroleum ministry time and again asked the finance ministry to release the amount piled up against the PDC to the OMCs so that they could maintain oil reserves in the country and ensure fuel supply chain, but the finance ministry is still unmoved."
PetroVietnam imports gas to plug shortage
Vietnam Oil & Gas Group plans to import natural gas in the next decade to meet a widening shortage of the fuel, an official said.“We may start gas imports by 2015,’’ Bui Minh Tien, vice president of PetroVietnam Gas Corp., a unit of the state-run group, said in Bangkok.
“Before that, we have to speed up domestic gas projects. We have a shortage because of demand from power plants and industries.”
Conoco Could Reach Deal With Venezuela This Year
ConocoPhillips could reach a settlement with Venezuela over its nationalized assets some time this year, Chief Executive Jim Mulva said Wednesday, adding that the oil giant has a normal business relationship with the South American country."We continue to have routine meetings where we negotiate the issues," Mulva told Dow Jones Newswires on the sidelines of the company's annual analyst meeting. "We hope we can reach an amicable settlement sometime this year."
Backgrounder: Oil resources in China
BEIJING, March 13 (Xinhua) -- China has announced a creation of a high-level body to integrate its energy management supervision and policies, functions that are currently dispersed among many government agencies.Below is basic information about oil resources in China.
Jeremy Leggett: A load of hot air
A "green budget" should have at its heart the green-ness of buildings. More than half our national greenhouse emissions come directly and indirectly from buildings. Most of the gas we will have to import will be used to heat and light buildings. The thousands of fuel-impoverished people who die each year of hypothermia shiver to death in un-insulated and under-heated buildings.
At a price of about $2,500, this four-door city car from India costs about the same as a decent three-night stay at a modest Geneva hotel. On the floor of the Palexpo exhibition centre near the airport, a funny-looking, little, four-door, yellow Nano was within a stone's throw of a $2.4-million Bugatti Veyron special edition (made in co-operation with luxury good maker Hermès) and Alfa Romeo's $200,000 8C Competizione.
'Disposable' nuclear reactors raise security fears
A US government-led plan to design small nuclear reactors for deployment in developing countries is continuing despite ongoing fears about security and proliferation risks.
Fomenting a Revolution in Small Steps
At the World Future Energy Summit (WFES) in Abu Dhabi at the beginning of 2008, experts from business and politics alike were unanimous: We are on the threshold of an era in which energy production will produce significantly fewer carbon dioxide emissions. But this revolution will take time - too much, say the critics.
John Michael Greer: Pieces of the puzzle
One of the continuing disputes on the end of the peak oil community concerned with agriculture is whether farming will continue to use tractors and the like, or whether draft horses will prove to be more viable. Both sides have good arguments. On the one hand, a large farm running tractors on homegrown biodiesel can keep them fueled by devoting 10% or so of its acreage to oilseed crops, while it takes around 30% of acreage to produce fodder for draft horses to provide the same amount of power. On the other, you don’t need a factory or its substantial inputs of energy and resources to manufacture horses – they do it themselves, with noticeable enthusiasm and no tools other than the ones nature gave them – and a properly fed horse also produces large amounts of excellent organic fertilizer, a significant value that tractors don’t provide.Which is the best option? That depends on a galaxy of factors, few of which can be predicted on the basis of abstract arguments.
Pakistan: Australian role in climate genocide
Pakistan is acutely threatened by climate and sustainability emergency now facing the world. As a mega-delta country, Pakistan is acutely threatened by the 20-metre sea level rise predicted from paleo-climate data by top American climate scientist Dr James Hansen of NASA: “There is strong evidence that the earth is within 1oC of its highest temperature in the past million years. Oxygen isotopes in the deep sea foraminifera reveal that the earth was last 2oC to 3oC warmer [relative to 2,000] around three million years ago, with carbon dioxide levels of perhaps 350 to 450 parts per million. It was a dramatically different planet then, with no Arctic Sea ice in warm seasons and sea level about 25 metres higher, give or take 10 metres.” Pakistan is acutely threatened by declining agricultural output due to global warming and is already threatened by huge increases in world food prices. Checked the price of a roti?According to the UN Genocide Convention, genocide involves the “intent to destroy in whole or in part” and that is precisely what the major climate criminal, greenhouse gas (GHG) polluting countries such as the US, Australia and Canada are doing to increasingly climate-impacted developing world countries. The US, Canada and Australia are among the world’s worst per capita GHG polluting countries and firmly opposed GHG reduction targets at the recent US-wrecked Bali Conference.
EPA sets tougher air-quality standards
WASHINGTON — The smog in more than 300 counties across the USA threatens public health and must be cleaned up to save hundreds or even thousands of lives a year, under new federal rules announced Wednesday.The long list of smog-ridden counties is the result of a new ozone limit the Environmental Protection Agency finalized Wednesday. Under the old standard, set in 1997, 85 counties have air quality considered too poor to breathe.
Cutting trees can fall on wrong side of the law
LAKE TAHOE, Nev. — Douglas Hoffman didn't like trees blocking his view of the Las Vegas Strip. He is now serving a state prison term of up to five years for cutting down more than 500 of them.Patricia Vincent, federal prosecutors say, was annoyed with some pines in her line of sight to scenic Lake Tahoe. A federal grand jury indicted her in January, and she faces trial in April for allegedly arranging to have three trees cut down on U.S. Forest Service land.
Both are part of a trend that has officials in the Lake Tahoe area and elsewhere cracking down — with fines and prison terms — on people willing to cut trees to improve views from their homes or businesses.
So, is there any hope for that a new flood of oil from other sources that would complete the cycle and lead to another generation of low prices? This is the key question in oil markets today — and it’s one that takes us to the heart of the debate between the “cornucopians” (those who suggest there’s lots left to find) and the depletionists, the peak oil types who say that we’ve found all there is.
Oil prices climbed to their highest level ever, reaching over $108 per barrel this week. And Americans are feeling this price spike at the pump, with gasoline averaging $3.22 per gallon. An analysis released by the investment firm Goldman Sachs suggested that oil prices might soar to $200 per barrel. Does this make sense?Not really. Although U.S. crude oil inventories have fallen, gasoline inventories are at their highest since March, 1993, notes Tim Evans, an energy futures analyst at Citigroup's Futures Perspective. World oil production was up 2.5 percent in the first quarter of 2008 over the same period in 2007 while world oil consumption rose by just 2 percent. In fact, world production is projected to be 3.3 percent higher in the second quarter and 4.1 percent higher in the third quarter than the same periods a year ago. On the other hand, world demand is projected to rise by just 1.6 percent over the next six months.
China Raises Fuel Oil Tax to Help Curb Energy Use
(Bloomberg) -- China, the world's third-largest buyer of crude oil, increased the consumption tax on imported fuel oil by more than fourfold on March 5 as part of efforts to limit energy use.The levy rose to 0.1 yuan ($0.014) a liter from 0.03 yuan, the Beijing-based Customs General Administration of China said in a statement on its Web site today. Fuel oil is burned by power plants and processed into gasoline and diesel by privately run refineries.
The average price of diesel fuel has been shooting up even faster than that of gasoline, rising more than 50 cents in barely two months. That is not only squeezing profit out of the trucking business but is also driving up the cost of delivering all kinds of goods to American consumers."People talk about gasoline, but it's diesel that puts the goods on the shelves," said James Hughes, an independent trucker who yesterday was hauling stone in Maryland, from La Plata to Hollywood.
A new 'neighborhood watch': Azeri horsemen guard BP pipeline
BP and other energy companies are under scrutiny for their relations with local communities worldwide for the cost, disruption, and even bloodshed their lucrative pipelines are responsible for. So in recent years they've honed a new formula: invest heavily in the affected communities and try to foster goodwill, neutralize controversy, and hopefully safeguard their multibillion-dollar investments.
Ukraine, Russia resolve gas disagreement
MOSCOW - Russia's natural gas monopoly OAO Gazprom says an agreement has been reached with Ukraine on gas deliveries for the remainder of the year.The agreement announced Thursday appears to cut out at least one of the controversial intermediary companies that had been involved in the trade. The announcement also is likely to fend off anxiety in Western Europe about possible interruptions in Russian gas shipments.
Review: Kunstler's World Made by Hand
As you’d expect from Jim Kunstler there are humorous interchanges and sharp observations, and there is a strong and simple plot. But what makes a far greater impact is the way Kunstler inserts us into the minds of the main characters, so we begin to see the changing world through the eyes of the narrator and others. This world is rural upstate New York in the 2020s. The US and state governments have ceased to be effective, encephalitis and flu epidemics have decimated the population and fuel oil disappeared a decade before the novel opens. Many men are infertile, possibly due to “the bomb.” Those of us familiar with Kunstler’s writing about peak oil will not be disappointed at the depth of the transformation he depicts - vividly.
Big Oil Looks To Renewables For Future Profit
WASHINGTON (Dow Jones)--As crude oil prices soar to new highs, big oil companies are looking beyond the windfall to place bets in the growing alternative energy market.In addition to the allure of a new market, there are worries that record-high oil prices could lead to a backlash plunge in demand. But there are other reasons the petroleum industry wants to plan for a more alternative-energy future. Dwindling access to new oil reserves, which is seen constraining supplies and forcing prices ever skyward, and a global political push to both cut greenhouse gases and shift to cleaner-energy technologies, are driving oil firms to the alternative energy industry.
The most famous conversion in Christian history is that of Paul, who the Bible says "persecuted The [Christian] Way to death," before the "scales fell from his eyes" on the road to Damascus, and he became a Christian himself. Jonathan Merritt, a seminary student with the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), is familiar with that paradigm. "I was an enemy of the environment," he says. "I approached it with disdain. And then I was sitting in a classroom and I felt like God spoke to me and put this idea in my heart." The idea - encapsulated in the "Southern Baptist Declaration on the Environment and Climate Change" - is a strikingly potent challenge to his denomination's official stance on global warming and to his own previous scorn. Yes, he says with a chuckle, "you could say the scales fell from my eyes."
Farm research network braces for less funds from U.S.
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A leading agricultural research network is bracing itself for a sharp cut in funding from its top donor, the United States, even as bioenergy, population growth, and climate change pose pivotal challenges for global food production.The U.S. Agency for International Development has warned the Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research, which includes 15 research centers around the world, that it expects to cut the network's core funding by 75 percent this year, the network's director said on Wednesday.
Atlantic's Gulf Stream has huge influence on atmosphere
PARIS (AFP) - The conveyor belt of Atlantic warm water known as the Gulf Stream massively influences the lower layers of the atmosphere, a finding that could shed light on a poorly-understood aspect of global warming, scientists report.
Climate change adds to world clandestine migrant dilemma
DAKAR (AFP) - Migration from the world's poorest nations to the rich West is going to increase and could be speeded up by climate change, a top international agency chief has warned.With growing numbers of poor Africans dying trying to reach Europe on flimsy boats and Asians paying "snakehead" traffickers to get them out of the poverty trap, International Organisation of Migration (IOM) director general Brunson McKinley said wealthy nations need foreign workers but must arrange a proper mechanism for their arrival.
Climate refugees in political pass-the-parcel
LONDON (Reuters) - The islanders of Tuvalu could lose their homes and much of their land in the coming decades. But the world has yet to figure out how it will deal with them, and millions of others, who may be displaced by climate change."It's a game of political pass-the-parcel," said Andrew Simms, policy director at British think-tank New Economics Foundation. "No one wants to be left holding the problem of climate refugees."
Aviation industry must act fast on climate change: Airbus chief
LONDON (AFP) - The aviation industry must act quickly to lower its own carbon emissions or face government regulation, the chief executive of European plane company Airbus wrote in a comment piece Thursday.
China tells developed world to go on climate change 'diet'
BEIJING (AFP) - The developed world should go on a climate change diet rather than lecture China over its rising greenhouse gas emissions, Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi said Wednesday.Yang told reporters that China's per capita emission of the gases linked to global warming remained less than one third the average in developed countries.
"It's like there is one person who eats three slices of bread for breakfast, and there are three people, each of whom eats only one slice. Who should be on a diet?" he said at a press conference on the sidelines of parliament.



Gold hits $1000 an ounce
According to CNN. It has since fallen back.
Here's a link to a BBC story about it:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7294040.stm
As the Chinese aphorism says, what goes up like a rocket comes down like a rocket. Gold will plummet as soon as the recession begins from the high price of oil. Economists quoted in THE WALL STREET JOURNAL say that we go into recession when oil hits $125 to $150 a barrel. Well, that could be tomorrow with the right mix of global problems. And it will happen anyway in about 6 months due to just high demand. And when global oil production begins its terminal descent, gold won't be worth much. Gold is valuable for its use in electronics and jewelery. In an oil depleted world, electronics and jewelery will hit the skids, and so too will the price of gold.
and what are those paper $$$$'s worth ? imo, the demand for wallpaper will "hit the skids" as well.
The value of paper money will drop too, but gold drop faster. In the long run, all money, bank investments, pensions, long term care insurance, etc. will have no value. All investments and money represent the power to buy oil, natural gas, and coal, and the energy and stuff it provides in the future. In the long run there will be no fossil energy, and not much energy, and promises to deliver energy in the future are illusionary.
In that case it is very weird that gold and silver were valued not just as ornaments but as stores of value for thousands of years before fossil fuels were substantially exploited.
What's changed?
That was yesterday, today is another day. What will people do with gold in a fossil fuel depleted stone age society? Will you trade your vegetables for something just because it is shiny?? The new stone age won't be anything like even 2000 B.C. In 2100, there won't be any global, national or even trade between cities. Just how do you suppose people will get around to trade gold tokens for stuff from afar. Maybe read some of Chris Shaws' stuff to get some historical perspective on gold and energy. His 5 articles can be found here: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3837
He makes the point that energy has always been the one true currency. Think about it. He is right.
I have thought about it, and decided you were incorrect.
You are moving on to another line of argument now the first that the value of gold is dependent on fossil fuels has proved unsustainable.
I do not intend to follow you there, now that the first grounds are proved specious, nor to read 5 articles.
Please sort out the case you wish to present in the first case, and please do not request that anyone read 5 articles - if you wish to make an argument, you should be able to summarise.
I have looked at the alleged loss of value for gold as much as I wish to.
You didn't think for very long. I thought about what Shaw wrote for months before concluding that he is right. Indeed, I read his articles several times. He has much to say about energy and history, and he is quite humorous too. This gave me new insights for thinking about Peak Oil.
Didn't take long to think about, really.
IMO, humans will always value gold. Also IMO, we're not going back to the stone age. If we're unlucky, perhaps a modern dark age. Perhaps.
For every person buying gold there is another person selling gold - I wonder what the person selling the gold is buying with his money. If he has held the gold for any length of time his pile of money has magically grown, but was it a good store of wealth?
Most people are using gold as a compact, very dense, indestructible store of wealth, gold is not convienient any more for day to day financial transactions - they are two different uses.
If you hold gold as a store of wealth no interest is payable, so it is viable long term so long as everybody accepts gold has value - unlike our current fiat, fractional banking, system which must have growth.
All saving methods are risky, gold is no exception.
Maybe he's just meeting a margin call?
It's interesting to see what happened with gold in other societies that suffered economic collapse. The guy from Argentina recommended gold, but said to buy a bunch of cheap gold wedding rings, rather than coins or other investment pieces. He said the dealers would give you the same amount for any piece of gold, regardless of size or quality. And I suppose offering a cheap wedding ring would make you less of a target than flashing around a big coin or ingot.
The Yugoslavia guy didn't recommend gold. What use is gold, when there's no food or fuel to buy? He said other things were far more valuable: soap, cosmetics, toilet paper, cast iron cookware. People would trade food for those items.
Maybe we'll just trade with cigarettes. Right.
Sorry cjwirth but people move to gold when they are uncertain about the value of paper money. This is exactly what we are seeing now with the problems in the interbank market, even securities backed by the government are being marked down. The US government is panicking if they have to inject hundreds of billions into the market to keep it from collapsing.
Gold has been seen as a store of wealth for thousands of years since unlike paper money the amount cannot just be changed overnight by governments.
Only a small fraction of gold is used for anything, the vast majority of gold is held in store.
You buy gold then. I sold my mutual fund investments in gold and I'm buying land now, 1 hectare on a river, in a location with 2 meters of rain annually, with a short dry season, coldest in the 40s and warmest about 95. After the collapse, you'll have gold, and I'll have food. See ACE's chart on world population at http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3726#more
I won't want any of your gold, and I don't think my neighbors will either.
That's fine if you think that things will really go down the pan.
It is really the old conundrum that you can't eat gold.
However, people are remarkably resistant to throwing away their ill-gotten gains, for instance the French army on the retreat from Moscow carried as much loot as they could for as long as they could before abandoning it, and almost up to the end there were a few optimists who for enough gold would swap some invaluable food, if they had any.
So gold will loose it's value eventually, but things have to get pretty extreme for that to happen.
It was your original assertion that the value placed in gold was solely due to fossil fuels which is incorrect.
The last time the dollar was falling this hard and inflation was roaring, gold went up, not down. Not until Jimmy Carter convinced some of the largest gold buyers in the world (among them at that time being Saudi Arabia) that the dollar would be ok, did gold fall. In other words, gold did not fall until the dollar began to strengthen.
Thus, I don't see how gold can fall at the same time that the dollar falls. You can believe what you choose but are you actually short gold? Are you putting your money into that bet? Some of us have been long gold and silver for quite a while and I don't see any reason to change that position.
Will there be periodic corrections? Yes, just as oil has been volatile. But the trend line remains upwards unless or until the dollar actually strengthens. So long as the dollar is weak, I will expect gold to either rise or at least retain its current levels. Historically, it has been more accurate to think of gold as the "anti-dollar" - when the dollar falls, gold rises. When the dollar rises, gold falls.
You are clearly clueless. Check out the gold price at the end of the first oil crisis. Gold increased 10 fold during the crisis. Jewelry and industrial demand are both negligible compared to the stocks kept as investment by banks and individuals. Gold will follow oil up. And silver will do even better.
The intrinsic value of an asset is a direct function of the amount of energy it takes to extract it from nature. What makes gold so valuable is that once that energy is expended, the product stays good for a very long time (gold doesn't oxidize or otherwise fall apart). Even if its utility is limited, gold is something you can always count on, regardless of the future availability of energy.
Please, no ad hominum attacks. Gold is not very nutritious, see my comments above. Why would things remain the same after the world economy and civilization as we know it collapses, and most people on the planet die??
Most of human history occurred with less than 8% of the current population. Great empires of non-technological societies were forged and extended, often in search of gold (as well as other resources), when global population was a mere 4% of right now. That would have been Rome, you know?
You seem to assume that collapse means The End. It hasn't before so far and I don't expect it to this time either. And if it did, we're talking extinction, where nothing, not skills, food, sewing needles, or gold would matter anyway.
Doubt about the value of gold (and silver, particularly in ancient China) globally as a means of storing value suggests considerable reading of history with regards to precious metals might give your reason to reconsider your position. There have been a very few isolated societies where gold was not seen as having value. Those are far outnumbered by those societies that saw gold as being valuable.
Of course people should prepare first for collapse by emphasizing usable skills, materials, tools, land, etc. But if you reached the point where you felt as prepared as you could be but still wished to find a way to transfer wealth out of a collapsing society, across the void of collapse, and into a new society, gold might be one very likely means to do that.
Economy and civilization will not collapse everywhere and certainly not at the same time. In many parts of the world, people will muddle through for a long time.
I completely disagree..
People with wealth want to preserve that wealth.
If there is fear that other assets might under perform, there will be a flight to quality:
Gold and Land
Seems to me that everyone is discounting the value of wits, as "living by one's wits." Gold and land will be important, then as now. Intelligence will be the most important, then as now. Intelligence, and the ability to use it, that is -- as in social networking. Clever people will always find "legal" ways to take the gold and land away from the less clever.
Nothing has changed, or ever can change without a total change in the nature of our species. And then, it wouldn't be us.
My fear with land is that it will be taxed.
In "Gone with the Wind", one had land. But not the money to keep the tax men at bay.
If we do enter economic collapse, Governments will be looking anywhere they can for some entities which are ripe for extracting cash. Its hard to know who has gold. Or knowledge. They already know who has accounts or land - and what its worth.
KNOWLEDGE is the most valuable of anything I have. I have almost all of my assets in practical skills. I can build/repair damned near anything. Right now, my skills are unused, as I am in competition with the cellphone.
Today, stuff is replaced cheaper than it can be fixed.
Example: No-one today runs R-290 in their refrigerator.
Say we have the fullbore economic collapse and freon and new refrigerators are unavailable? But I can still get compressors from scrap yards? I am not gonna tell you what R-290 is, but I will give you a hint: its widely available and is a damned good refrigerant, albeit it is flammable.
Maybe that interested you enough to google it.
If there is no-one answering the other end of the phone, my services will be invaluable - more precious than gold.
Anything else I have is fair game for the thief or tax man.
Either of them will find ways of taking everything I have, except whats in my head. That alone is mine.
I feel the only thing I have going for me is to make myself useful to others. I get a strong impression that useless people will not survive in a scenario where what you can DO reflects how much your community needs YOU.
Steve...
"my services will be invaluable - more precious than gold."
Yes, but what will you accept as payment?
Food.
:-)
Propane goes up pretty good if the refigerator leaks (as do other hydrocarbons) that's why halons HFCs and HCFCs are used so widely - R290 usually blows the doors off the house.
You think we will have spare energy for refrigeration? Hmmm ... I think it depends where in the world you happen to be!
But I do agree 'Mr fixit' type people will be in great demand sooner than most expect - that's why I am teaching myself to design, program and build circuits with PIC chips. Even the apparently simplest devices such as refrigerators have embedded microprocessors which are no longer manufactured after a very short while - IMO there will be a need for people who can build and program electronics enough to keep basic systems running without the correct spare parts.
In the UK at least, the 'useless' people now consume a good part of our taxes - what happens if there are insufficient taxes to pay for the social security?
The US isn't in recession now? Look at the second chart.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data
Cheers
Too bad that GDP chart doesn't extend backwards for another decade. I suspect that it would clearly illustrate that the US has indeed essentially been in a long-term recession since the mid 1970s, broken by only a few brief episodes of positive GDP growth.
What is clear is that the long term trend is not flat, but down.
wnc, i wonder if the national debt, imo,a keynesian index, doesn't show what you are saying:
"the US has indeed essentially been in a long-term recession since the mid 1970s, broken by only a few brief episodes of positive GDP growth"
i sometimes wonder if regan and his cia trained vp didnt see this. 1980 was the start of the current and onging national debt bubble.