Continuing the Nuclear Debate

We have run several articles recently on nuclear power and without fail they have stimulated enthusiastic debate. This is an opportunity to continue that debate. To start us off we have three guest contributions:

    Skip Meier - Nuclear Waste
    Bill Hannahan - We have yet to design the Model T of nuclear power plants
    Charles Barton - Thorium Reserves
Last week the UK's Business Secretary, John Hutton gave one of the most pro-nuclear speeches from a Government minister in which he compared the potential of new nuclear development with the North Sea: "the most significant opportunity for our energy economy since the exploitation of North Sea oil and gas," (Platts). Labour MP Colin Challen responded with a letter in The Guardian:
John Hutton's latest reflections on nuclear power demonstrate how rapidly British energy policy is regressing to its default mode - dig it up and burn it. At the same time as we are promised the nuclear pipe dream, we are also set to have new coal-powered power stations without carbon capture and storage. This comes at the same time as we have fought for one of the lowest renewables targets in the EU, are languishing third from bottom in current renewables provision out of 27 EU states, and are announcing yet another microgeneration review.

The message Hutton's department seems to want to promulgate in its energy policy is to reassure everybody that no serious change is needed, that we should carry on increasing our demand for energy and that climate change isn't as urgent as some people make out. One can only conclude that the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform is utterly unfit for purpose and should have the title Department for Fiddling While Rome Burns.
Colin Challen MP
Lab, Morley & Rothwell

Nuclear Waste

Skip Meier
70ish Theoretical Physicist with educational studies in the mid 1960's to 1973. Ph.D. work in General Relativity and Quantum Field Theory during the early days of attempted quantization of GR; Thermodynamics of Black Holes. Taught at various colleges throughout the US including the Navajo Nation College at Tsaile AZ. Continuing independent collaboration with others on problems in Gravitational Quantization vs Superstring Pseudo-theories. Presently wandering the canyon country of SE Utah and the Colorado Plateau - in the middle of Superfund sites from the last uranium boom and within 20 miles of the only US licensed and presently operating Uranium mill. People here are still dying from the last round of careless unconcern for proper handling (and processing) of radioactive materials, including HLRW.

Introduction

There are at least three expressed goals for the increased use of nuclear fission to provide us with useful supplies of electrical energy as fossil fuels go into decline and anthropomorphic global warming becomes manifest and increasingly more threatening.

  • To quickly increase the number of nuclear power plants and electrical output from them over the 21st C. allowing coal and natural gas fired plants to be phased out while sustainable and renewable sources of electric energy can be developed and employed. Moving into the 22nd C. and beyond, we can then begin to phase out nuclear power based upon fission energy.
  • To develop sufficient electric nuclear power generation as quickly as possible to provide base load requirements into the foreseeable future.
  • To quickly adapt nuclear power as the predominant source of energy while moving to a *all electric* society.
It is my position here that disposal of high level radioactive waste (HLRW) is a major concern for all of the above goals and that permanent isolation by deep geologic burial will be necessary - but is not sufficient. I will be using the definitions for “high-level radioactive waste” and "spent nuclear fuel", often referred to as nuclear waste, from the US Nuclear Waste Policy Act (NWPA) found at this site: Link
(12) The term “high-level radioactive waste” means—
(A) the highly radioactive material resulting from the reprocessing of spent nuclear fuel, including liquid waste produced directly in reprocessing and any solid material derived from such liquid waste that contains fission products in sufficient concentrations; and
(B) other highly radioactive material that the Commission, consistent with existing law, determines by rule requires permanent isolation.
(23) The term "spent nuclear fuel" means fuel that has been withdrawn from a nuclear reactor following irradiation, the constituent elements of which have not been separated by reprocessing.
I will not be addressing the issues of the actinic (and transuranic) fractions of the spent fuel but only the fission decay products - the high level radioactive waste as defined in (12) above.

The Physics of Nuclear Fission and Power Generation

For every Kg of fissile fuel that undergoes fission approximately 850-950 gm of highly radioactive waste isotopes are produced.

1 GWe continuous power generation will produce 8.76 GKWhe energy (1 GW Year), consume about 900-1000Kg of fissile fuel and produce about 850-950Kg of high- level radioactive waste (HLRW) per year. This waste is a mixture of isotopes with greatly varying half-lives (decay rates) ranging from fractional seconds to 1My+.

The daughter isotopes will each undergo radioactive decay following the exponential decay function given by A(t) = A(initial)e^ct with c being the individual decay rate of each and related to the half-life by c = -0.693/(half-life in years). However, and this is critical to the understanding of the problem of HLRW, while the fission products undergo their individual decay rates and deplete, more HLRW is being generated at the rate given above - about 850-950 Kg/(GW Year).

The exponential decay function must be reconsidered and modified when the isotope undergoing decay is also being produced. For simplicity, if the rate of production is held constant and is represented by “S”, then the amount of that isotope present after a time t is given by the exponential function:

A(t) = [A(initial) + S/c] e^ct - S/c
where c is as before.

Because c is negative -S/c is a positive quantity and e^ct will go to 0 with increasing time, leading to the constant value -S/c for the amount of HLRW accumulated and eventually maintained with a constant yearly production rate.

As stated above, each fractional isotope in the HLRW has a different half-life (HL); each will accumulate to a different limit as time progresses; but a feel may be obtained for what occurs by using an average HL of 50 yrs. (based on the assumption made by many that after 500 years the HLRW is ‘harmless’.) Assuming this gives c = -0.014/yr (from c = -.693/HL).

A value of S = 900Kg/yr. and the c above gives an eventual steady state value of:

64 tonne HLRW as the asymptotic limit for each GW Year unit of energy generated and after 500 years (10 HL’s) 63 tonne will be present on the planet.

It is certainly true that the 900 Kg produced during the first year will have been reduced to 0.9 Kg. after 500 years but there will be 63 tonne requiring isolation.

Let us consider the single HLRW isotope Cs(137) - which is both a beta and high energy gamma emitter with a HL of 30 yr. and therefore very dangerous. Cs (137) makes up about 3.5% (by mass) of the fissioned nuclei and therefore has a yearly rate of production of about 31.5Kg/yr. for each GW Year unit of energy production.

For Cs(137), c = -0.023 and with S = 31.5 this gives an accumulated steady state value of:

-S/c ~= 1.4 tonne for each GW Year unit of continuous energy production.

Associated Health Risks

High level radioactive waste does not exist in nature (at any measurable level), is partially composed of isotopes of elements, for example cesium, iodine and strontium, that are easily incorporated into the chemical and physiological structures of organisms - they are readily taken up and, if not isolated, will pass up the food chain - in both land and water - from plant/algae to herbivore to carnivore (becoming more concentrated with progression); as they decay within the longer lived higher organisms, cellular and organ damage can occur as well as DNA modification leading to cancer some time later.

Additionally - and very important - some are extremely dangerous without ingestion; merely being in proximity can be very damaging if not fatal. Since ‘proximity’ depends not only on ‘closeness to’ and which isotope (and amount thereof) is present but also on time of exposure, it is very difficult to protect against accidental exposure without permanent isolation of the HLRW; this will become exceedingly more difficult as we increase our nuclear power generation output and the total amount of accumulated(-ing) HLRW which include some second (and third) generation isotopes of the original HLRW - for example, Cs(135) with a half-life of 2.5 My.

A review of the radiative characteristics of (some) the HLRW products can be reviewed on the following two links (Wikipedia sites, not complete):

Fission product
Fission product yield

We have yet to design the Model T of nuclear power plants.

Bill Hannahan

Each new technology has a life cycle. It starts with an idea, then a prototype. If the technology involves high energy and/or hazardous materials, the prototype is often the most dangerous example, but there is only one prototype, so its risk to society is low. Risk to the public is greatest when the immature technology is first deployed in large numbers.

We have frozen nuclear power technology at its most dangerous stage of evolution for 30 years, yet it safely generates about 20% of our electricity in the U.S., 80% in France. Next generation plants will have fewer parts and passive safety systems, including the ability to contain a full meltdown.

General Electric ESBWR
Nuclear News on the ESBWR (.pdf)

Westinghouse AP1000

Areva EPR (.pdf)

Today we should be designing fourth generation nuclear plants, building third generation plants, living off the energy of second generation plants and converting our first generation plants into museums. In fact, no two nuclear power plants are exactly alike. We have yet to build the Model T of nuclear power plants.

Imagine that Boeing built airplanes in a swamp, outdoors, far away from any attractive place to live, using minimal tooling and equipment. Workers and equipment would be exposed to rain snow dust heat and insects. Very high salaries would be required to attract workers away from their families to work in harsh conditions. Productivity and quality would be low. The airplanes would be more expensive, less clean, less safe and less reliable than modern factory built planes. That is the way our first generation nuclear plants were built.

We should build facilities to mass produce floating nuclear power plants. They would consist of a canal 600 feet wide and a mile long, enclosed inside a building equipped with high quality lighting, heat, air conditioning, fire protection, communication systems, cranes and tooling, that provide a comfortable safe efficient work environment.

The process begins with a dry dock where a massive steel reinforced concrete barge is constructed. It is floated down the canal for installation of modular equipment. Employees will have safe, permanent, high paying jobs in an attractive coastal location. The application of assembly line techniques will dramatically reduce man-hours, construction time and cost, while improving safety and quality. The completed plants will be towed to coastal or offshore sites, prepared in parallel with plant construction.

The biggest single element in the cost of conventional nuclear plants is the interest on the loan to build the plant, about 1/3 of the total cost, due to the long construction time. Floating plants will be produced initially at the rate of two per year ramping up to about six per year, eliminating most of the interest expense.

A facility to mass produce floating nuclear power plants was actually built, for details see here.

We can make clean safe inexpensive energy available all over the world, have the high paying jobs and control the technology. We can design the plants to be highly resistant to acts of terror and the diversion of nuclear material, insist that plants be subject to international inspection as a condition of sale or lease and sell or lease these plants at a cost that is much lower than traditional construction methods, eliminating the fig leaf of energy production to hide a nuclear weapons program.

Cost

Reducing U.S. emissions now is of minor importance. If we eliminate all of our greenhouse emissions tomorrow, the developing world would gobble up the savings in a relatively short period of time.

The most important goal for the U.S. should be to accelerate the use of our technical capacity to develop energy technology that is less expensive than fossil fuel and can be implemented quickly all over the world. People will make the switch quickly and voluntarily, not kicking and screaming.

This is why the U.S. should increase R&D spending for non-fossil energy sources from $3.00 per person per year to $300.00 per person per year, $90 billion per year.

The money could be raised simply by adding 2.25 cents to the cost of each kWh.

We should be pushing every technology as hard as possible and building demo plants of each as it becomes possible.

What are the odds that a submarine reactor on steroids is the best way to produce massive amounts of commercial nuclear power? There are dozens of ways to split uranium and thorium atoms, here are a few examples.

2.25 cents per kWh would raise $18 billion each year from our existing nuclear power plants, more than enough to build at least one demonstration facility to mass produce floating nuclear power plants and several prototype reactors using advanced technology. That leaves $72 billion per year for non nuclear energy R&D.

Mandating the widespread use of expensive energy systems has resulted in the highest electricity prices in the world, Denmark, 41 cents per kWh, Germany, 30 cents per kWh (Electricity prices for EU households and industrial (.pdf)) yet they still get most of their electricity from fossil fuel.

We pay 9.5 cents per kWh in the U.S... A year’s supply of electricity costs the average American $1,260. Mandating expensive energy systems could easily double that figure. Technology mandates are far more expensive than the cost of developing better technology.

Letting a bunch of gray haired law school graduates in Washington DC try to cherry pick energy technology is a formula for disaster.

France is 80% nuclear, most of the rest is hydro, and they pay 19 cents per kWh. France runs its nuclear power industry like the U.S. runs the post office, and they are building windmills now to show more renewable energy, so their cost will likely rise in coming years.

Our nuclear power plants have been paid off for a long time and they help keep prices down. The operation and maintenance cost for U.S. nuclear plants in 2006 was 2.0 cents per kWh (link) including the fuel assembly cost of 0.5 cents per kWh, of which the uranium cost was 0.19 cents per kWh.

Expensive energy systems will not solve the world’s energy problem because most people cannot afford them.

If we spend 2.25 cents per kWh on R&D for a decade or so we can solve the energy problem and save over $1,000 per person per year for centuries. Accelerating the development of low cost, clean, safe energy systems is the greatest and cheapest gift we can provide to future generations.

For more details go to: Bill Hannahan's essay on energy.
Download the PDF and spreadsheet (mid page).

Thorium Reserves

Charles Barton
Charles Barton grew up in Oak Ridge, where his father was a reactor chemist. Barton learned about Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactors from his father, who spent nearly 20 years researching them. A retired counselor, his blog, Nuclear Green focuses on the history of nuclear research, and on the potential role of thorium cycle reactors in providing the world’s energy needs.

In 1962 a team of Geologists from Rice University in Houston, Texas, took a few months to explorer the Conway Granites of Vermont. At the time Rice Geologists were usually involved in a search for oil, but these geologists were under contract from Oak Ridge National Laboratory to look for Thorium. ORNL Scientist had the crazy idea that they could build a thorium fuel cycle reactor that could produce a billion watts of electrical power for a year from less than a ton of thorium.

The Rice Geologists J. A. S. Adams, M.-C. Kline, K. A. Richardson, and J. J. W. Rodgers reported:

The costs of extracting the uranium and thorium from the Conway granite are estimated by workers at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory to be less than $100/pound, or at most five to ten times the present costs of nuclear raw materials. This source of nuclear fuels, therefore, is currently uneconomic compared to the sources now being utilized. In terms of total energy content, however, the Conway granite represents an energy resource several orders of magnitude larger than the lower cost material. In the long-term future, when supplies of cheap uranium and thorium may start to be exhausted, sources such as the Conway granite may become increasingly important and necessary.
They concluded:
Thus the importance of the present work on the Conway granite lies in the indication that tens of millions of tons of thorium are available when the need for vast amounts of higher-cost nuclear fuel becomes pressing. These amounts may be compared to the few hundreds of thousands of tons of previously estimated thorium reserves. It is reassuring to know that the long-term future of nuclear power is not limited by the supply or by a prohibitively high cost of fuel. Furthermore, the Conway granite may become even more important considering the likelihood that improved extraction techniques may make the thorium available at costs well below the $100/pound estimated in preliminary laboratory experiments. It is also possible that larger amounts of lower-cost thorium might be realized by locating high-grade ore reserves such as the Lemhi Pass, Idaho, area may prove to be, or by finding a large granitic batholith more economic than the Conway.”

...

“Finally, it should be noted that the statistical and exploration techniques developed in the present work and described above, particularly the portable gamma-ray spectrometer, may make it possible to explore for thorium and develop reserves far more cheaply and rapidly than was the case for uranium.

Source (.pdf)

Last year the a rumor began to circulate on the Internet of a remarkable geological find at Lemhi Pass in Idaho. Recently the USGS has estimated the United States Thorium reserve at 160,000 tons, but the story that was circulating claimed an assured reserve at Lemhi Pass alone of 600,000 tons. Thorium is a heavy metal. Like Uranium 238, Thorium 232 is fertile. Thorium absorbs neutrons, in reactors and other neutron rich environments. The neutron triggers a transformation process that converts Th233 into U233. U233 is fissionable like U235 and Pu239.

Thorium Energy, Inc., the major holder of the Lemhi Pass thorium vein, recently posted on the Internet a report on its Lemhi Pass finding:

Thorium Energy, Inc.™ owns the proprietary mineral rights to the largest claim in this region, representing what is believed to be one of the single largest privately owned Thorium reserves in the world.

...

The Company’s reserves consist of 68 separate resource claims, each consisting of approximately 20 Acres, located in the Lemhi Pass Region, which is situated along the border between Idaho and Montana. Included in the Company’s claims are significant mining veins, which contain 600,000 tons of proven thorium oxide reserves. Various estimates indicate additional probable reserves of as much as 1.8 million tons or more of thorium oxide contained within these claims. The Company’s claims also include significant deposits of rare earth metals.

...

Metallurgy tests conducted in the region estimate that the average mine run grade is approximately 5% or more of thorium oxide (ThO 2). In fact, vein deposits of thorite (ThSiO 4), such as those that occur in the area of the Lemhi Pass, present the highest grade thorium, mineral, and are believed to contain approximately 25 to 63 percent thorium oxide (ThO 2) per ton of raw ore. Thus one ton of thorium ore could potentially yield as much as 500-1,200 lbs. of high grade thorium oxide (ThO 2), as compared with less than one percent of raw Uranium ore that is typically utilizable. The deployment of Lemhi Pass Thorium represents a more economically feasible source of nuclear grade ore than Uranium deposits.

Source (.pdf)

Why is this thorium reserve just now being discovered? An Australian Government, Geoscience Australia report states:

“Exploration for thorium to date has been minimal and there are no comprehensive records of resources, mainly because of a lack of large-scale commercial demand.”

What is true of Australia is also true of the United States, and indeed the rest of the world.

Research has demonstrated that it is possible to design reactors that will convert thorium 232 to U233 very efficiently. 800 kg of thorium 232, under a ton, converted into U233 can produce a billion watts of electricity for a year.

See Liquid Fluoride Reactor (Wikipedia)

The 600,000 proven tons of thorium at Lemhi Pass represent enough energy to power the United States for as much as 400 years. 1.8 million tons of thorium contains enough energy to power the United States for well over 1000 years. The tens of millions of tons of thorium that Rice University Geologists reported in 1962 finding in the Conway granites of Vermont could last the United States for a very long time.

Skip Meier indirectly points to a major advantage of the thorium fuel cycle. A thorium cycle reactor will produce less than ton of fission byproducts a year, most of which can be recycled by industry as soon as it comes of a reactor because it is no longer radioactive.

Most of the fission products produced in a thorium fuel cycle reactor have half lives of under 2 hours. Thus most fission products will have ceased being radioactive within a few days of being produced.
http://www.cns-snc.ca/branches/quebec/NWMO_submission_Table_1.jpg
If the thorium fuel cycle is well managed the only actinide it will produce will be Np-237 which is easily extracted from a liquid fluoride fuel carrier. Np-237 is not fissionable, and hence is not a proliferation danger, but it's eventual radiation is a long term hazard, and should be disposed of with care. Neptunium is fissionable with fast neutrons, and is a proliferation risk. It should be burned by some fast neutron process, either in a liquid chloride nuclear waste disposal reactor, or as a target material in a spallation thorium breeder.
http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf35.html
About 20 pounds (9 kg) of Np-237 will be produced for every GWy of electricity generated by a thorium fuel cycle reactor.

In addition to NP-237, the thorium fuel cycle produces seven long lived fission by products. A very small amount of Tin-126 is present among the fission products, It has a half life 230,000 years, but then decays into Antimony126 a strong gamma-ray emitter. Other long lived radioactive daughter isotopes are weak radiation emitters. Several are biologically inactive. This does not mean that the long lived fission products should be treated carelessly, but it does mean that they are not a danger to life on this planet, or to human lives.

The thorium fuel cycle produces a tiny fraction of the waste generated by the uranium fuel cycle. The waste from the thorium fuel cycle does not constitute a proliferation danger, and the long term radiation emitters are not highly dangerous. Most fission products from a thorium fuel cycle reactor are not radioactive by the time they come out of a reactor, and can be recycled by industry.

A truly incredible amount of information on the thorium fuel cycle, and on the Liquid Fluoride Thorium Reactor can be found on Kirk Sorensen's blog, "Energy from Thorium."
http://thoriumenergy.blogspot.com/

In addition to an amazing document repository, Kirk's blog contains what is undoubtedly the most extensive discussion-dialogue about nuclear technology found on the internet. Reading Kirk's blog is an absolute must for anyone who wishes to be literate on nuclear issues, or wishes to make informed comments on nuclear energy. I claim for my own blog, Nuclear Green much more modest accomplishments. However, I do try to maintain a complete list of links to blogs that write on nuclear related topics.
http://nucleargreen.blogspot.com/

I'm surprised that the Oil Drum has granted Charles Barton a guest spot, given that he has no professional expertise in the subject area ("retired counseler" who questions the details of other's professional credentials) and calls Chris Vernon "a world class idiot" (which makes one wonder how effective a counselor he must have been).

Ditto.

That blog doesn't even have a vaguely professional feel to it, let alone any actual expertise...

Hey! Don't you go dissing unprofessional and inexpert blogs, we have fun! :p

Mind you, if I were going to have a whole blog about nuclear energy, I should probably try not to confuse fission and fusion, as for example in the title here, "Long half life fusion products"?

Still, I've based my entire fame on being unprofessional and inexpert! So be nice...

Will Stewart, I am a listener who repeats what he hears. That is what a good counselor does. Since my father, was a nuclear scientist, I got much of my information from a good sources. I am nuclear literate, and I defer to scientist and engineers on technical issues. That is why the substance of my post is born by the voice of people who know what they are talking about. I also acknowledge who I am.

> I am a listener who repeats what he hears

A parrot does the same, as do the uniformed when manipulated with disinformation, so that hardly provides you with any qualifications. Your style of denigrating others who disagree with you, notwithstanding your complete lack of credentials, destines your 'contributions' to the dustbin of the internet archives.

My father was a geologist with the USGS, and I learned much from him, but that neither qualifies nor motivates me to deride those with an opposing viewpoint to mine on geology matters.

Surely if his writing is so uniformed and unqualified it ought to be easy to tear it apart, rather than just calling him a poopyhead.

I mean, if you said, "You are wrong because of X, Y and Z, and therefore are a poopyhead", I would not complain. But you're just saying, "you are a poopyhead." Your critique lacks substance.

I'm the last person who can criticise others for making personal attacks. I'd only say, put some substance in them, let the personal attack be the salt to bring out the taste of the rest of the dish. A mouthful of salt alone isn't so tasty.

"poopyhead" is your term, not mine; you missed the point completely, as I did not critique his content, merely his style. The 'salt' you refer to is more like dung to the rest of us, so don't be surprised when we spit it back out.

And frankly I'm in favor of nuclear being part of the overall energy mix, as well as significantly higher percentages of renewables and substantive demand management and, above all, conservation; cooler heads will go farther in this discussion.

So he's right. You have not a single argument against the article, except how easy it is to read.

It baffles me how anyone would admit in a conversation he has no points to contribute, and somehow find pride in this ?

Welcome to the real world. Here "reality bites" and style is optional. I'm not entirely sure you'll like it here.

tomc has been here all of 1 week and three days, and professing, "Global warming is a fantasy". His version of reality must always be the right one, we must assume...

Will, I bet you know a whole lot more about geology than the average Oil Drum commenter. What I deride is nuclear illiteracy. Not knowing enough to make intelligent comments, and not knowing what you don't know. Many of the critics of nuclear power simply repeat slogans that were invented in the 1970's. I don't mind hearing from well informed, consistent critics of nuclear power, and I respect their views. I am quite willing to have dialogues with well informed and thoughtful critics, because I share many of their concerns. I am aware of the technological short comings of light water reactors, and I think that the problem of nuclear waste should be solved. I would appreciate dialogue on how to do that. What I object to is people who oppose nuclear power, and who also reject any solution to the problem of nuclear waste by reciting a bumper sticker slogan.

Update: I have been a very bad boy, and I have been kicked off Tho Oil Drum:

luís de sousa said...
The Oil Drum Europe gets seventy thousand (70 000) visits per month. If you don't read it it doesn't mean that others don't.

I suggest next time you submit your article to some place else.

Luis, how could you? My eyes are so stained with tears.

Thanks to the Oil Drum for having Charles here. What Charles does is very important, making a narrow field of a technical substance accessible by a much larger share of the interested population. Expertise without the communication of it to others has no value, so Charles adds important value. I appreciate what Charles does and respect the quality of his work.

Charles has value, makes a worthwhile contribution, stimulates interest, shares knowledge and raises the wisdom of lots more people in a conflicted field. I'll post you, Charles . . . We've quoted and linked to you and Bill already. At about a third of TheOilDrum's visitor count in just the first 9 months, with a neutral to positive position about energy and fuel, common sense and a positive outlook has a good following too.

Charles is respectfully mentioned here: http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/2008/03/21/2000-m...

I'll be happy to link to Charles and Bill anytime. They offer really good stuff for people's screen space.

By the way, all this debate is rather "behind the curve" anyway... http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/category/fission/

By the way, all this debate is rather "behind the curve" anyway... http://newenergyandfuel.com/http:/newenergyandfuel/com/category/fission/

...tee hee hee...

...sorry.

Name-calling mere obscures the facts. Both sides, ANY side should stay away from it.

That being said, your Thorium article is old news. I could nitpick about the details, but the essence is the same for all nuclear energy: too expensive.

I'm not bothered at all about the fact that nuclear reactors around the world produce nuclear waste. Stop bringing it up, it's not the point.

The only real issue in nuclear energy is that those who would like to build new reactors want taxpayers money to pay for it. That's why there's so much lying and cheating and lobbying and deceptive pr around.

For example: stop mentioning how France gets 80% of it's electricity from nuclear energy. Period. The French electricity company is a state-controlled and state owned company. No known full accounting exist of the true cost of electricity in France. By not mentioning that you are telling half-truths. A half-truth is a full lie. Charles Barton, I'm calling you a liar. You know I'm right. Stop it.
This knowledge (about French nuclear energy) has been around for many years,if not decades now. As is the knowledge that EdF (the energy company concerned) has massive debts that are guaranteed by the state. Yet you parrot disinfo like there's no tomorrow.

I have no problem with Thorium, nor with a reactor that works on it. Go ahead and do it.
But you're trying to lie your way into getting politicians to give you MY money to do so.
And I DO have a problem with THAT.

If you are serious about Thorium energy, convince the industry to put their OWN money in it. Not MY tax money. Somehow, I don't see you doing that. If Thorium is so nice, or nuclear energy as a whole for that matter, how come nill reactors have been built without tax payers money?

That's my central issue with nuclear energy: the people involved are a bunch of lying, cheating, stealing bastards who wouldn't invest a DIME without a taxpayer bailout. And they know it.

You want nuclear energy? Put up YOUR money. Not mine.

where is the energy source that is not subsidized ?
Solar ? Subsidized (feed in tariffs, tax breaks, research subsidies etc...)
Wind ? Subsidized (feed in tariffs, tax breaks, research subsidies etc...)
geothermal, biofuels, oil, coal, natural gas ? All subsidized.

Every energy producer is taking taxpayer money.

by your own definition, a half truth is a lie. I would not be that harsh, I would say research your assumptions. Let's look at all energy sources as critically as we look at nuclear power.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/02/feed-in-tariffs-support-for-renewable.h...

http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/01/energy-costs-with-externalities.html

Nuclear lobbying is less than coal and oil.
http://depletedcranium.com/?p=480

Every energy producer is taking taxpayer money.

Is that justified? No.
Does that make it Ok for nuclear energy to do? No.

Nuclear lobbying is less than coal and oil.

See above. You do not invalidate my arguments.

Crusty, Are you the clown from the Simpsons? You certainly made me laughed, You denounced name calling and then called me a lier. What was most funny, is that you called me a lier over the cost of French nuclear power, and no where in my post or in my comment did I mention the cost of French nuclear power. If we assume that the use of carbon based fuels carries a hidden economic cost - and I would argue that it actually carries several - then there are hidden savings from the French use of nuclear power that ought also to be considered.

Crusty, Are you the clown from the Simpsons? You certainly made me laughed, You denounced name calling and then called me a lier.

Well I've come straight out and called you a liar.

I'm not sure what a 'lier' is.

hidden savings from the French use of nuclear power that ought also to be considered.

So now your are going to argue with SECRECT data? Hidden data, hidden magical data?

What a weak argument: you have identified you do not understand the technology you make claims about and NOW you want people to consider data that is 'hidden'?

What was most funny, is that you called me a lier over the cost of French nuclear power, and no where in my post or in my comment did I mention the cost of French nuclear power.

Halt. You apparently even fail to see that you are a liar. Here's some reasoning 101:

By putting forth the French nuclear energy program, you implicitly and explicitly use it as a showcase for the succes of nuclear energy as a whole. Understand this part?

You don't have to give the French energy program as an example if you want to show that something is technically feasible. You could do that with ANY nuclear energy plant anywhere in the world that works. You implicitly want to show it is economically feasible.

Now, the problem is, you will find very few people, apart from a few rabid treehuggers, that will argue that nuclear energy cannot work at all. If you pour endless amounts of money into it, as has been done in the past 60 years, of course you can make it work.

However, just because something is technically feasible, doesn't mean we should do it. And it most certainly doesn't mean you get to use my tax money to do it.

By continuously trying to portray the French nuclear energy program as a succes story you are trying to put forth a technological succes story as an economic succes story. Which it isn't. By doing this, you are a liar. QED.

Like I said before, stop being a liar. It's no shame to stop.

Crusty, I do not wish to involve myself in further debate, because we have worn through the issues of disagreement. I have in a post at the end of the comment section of this blog, pointed to some areas of agreement shared by commenters on both sides. I have suggested that nuclear power in not going away, and that critics of nuclear power might better use their energy by seeing that their concerns are not ignore in the future development of nuclear power. I suggest you consider this, if you wish to have a voice on issues like nuclear safety.

I would share with you some information on French nuclear power.

NUCLEAR NEWS FLASHES - Friday, March 14, 2008
INTERNATIONAL NEWS:
--NUCLEAR REMAINS FRANCE's CHEAPEST BASELOAD GENERATING OPTION going
forward, although the costs of all options have risen "significantly" over
the five years since the French administration last studied the issue, the
head of the French energy office, Pierre-Franck Chevet, said March 13.
Chevet said that the upcoming 2008 "reference costs" study - part of a
series issued periodically by the administration to guide choices for
future electricity generating plants in France -- will show that a new
large nuclear power plant will produce baseload power more cheaply than the
alternatives considered -- plants based on fluidized bed coal technology
and on pulverized coal (coal slurry), and on natural gas. Chevet said at a
meeting of the French Nuclear Energy Society that the 2008 study confirms
the order of competitiveness of the technologies available for baseload
power plants to start up in 2015, with nuclear the cheapest, then
fluidized-bed coal, followed by pulverized coal, and then by gas. The
estimates do not include any carbon tax or trading mechanism, and Chevet
said a 20-euro-per-metric-ton carbon tax "accentuates the effect" of
nuclear's competitiveness for baseload power generation. In 2003, the
reference costs for generation of baseload power (330 days a year) were
estimated at 28 Euro-cents per kilowatt-hour for a 1,600-MW EPR nuclear
power plant, 32 cents for fluidized-bed coal, 34 cents for pulverized coal,
and 35 cents for gas. The reference costs study, long delayed, is due to be published by May.
===========

NUCLEAR NEWS FLASHES - Thursday, January 11, 2007
INTERNATIONAL NEWS:
--NUCLEAR POWER SAVED FRANCE 16 BILLION EUROS (about US$20 billion) in energy import costs and at least 128 million tons of CO2 emissions in 2006, the French industry ministry said January 11. France's nuclear electricity production in
2006 was about 430 terawatt-hours. Had that generation come from combined-cycle gas-fired plants instead, the ministry's Energy Observatory calculated, the
country's 2006 energy import outlays would have been Eur 62 billion, or 3.6% of
gross domestic product, instead of Eur 46 billion (2.7% of GDP). The total extra
cost includes Eur 13.5 billion for additional natural gas imports and a loss of
Eur 2.6 billion in electricity export revenues. The carbon emissions savings
equal the annual emissions allocated to French industry over the period 2008-
2102, and half of the credits to German industry, Industry Minister Francois
Loos said at a press briefing. Had coal-fired power replaced the French nuclear
kWh, the additional CO2 emissions would have amounted to 250 million to 300
million tons, Loos said. Counting exported electricity, French nuclear saved the
European Union 150 million tons of CO2 last year, he said.

Most of the fission products produced in a thorium fuel cycle reactor have half lives of under 2 hours. Thus most fission products will have ceased being radioactive within a few days of being produced.
http://www.cns-snc.ca/branches/quebec/NWMO_submission_Table_1.jpg

In that table, note the bottom line: "Smaller contributors = 8". In other words, there's eight megawatts' worth of radioactive strontium and cesium and whatnot. Hardly a negligible load of long-lived isotopes. And probably typical of the fission products for any actinide burner.

Charles, I doubt very much you need any support from me - you seem to be fairly thick-skinned, which I'll assume you get from your councillor experience.

That being said, it appears that when unable to discredit the technology or ideas, opponents (of any issue really) go after the person to salvage what’s left of their paradigm.

Some time ago, several colleagues and I were sitting around the office on a Friday afternoon discussing yet more good news regarding nuclear power (not sure if it was another COL in the USA, more environmental impact assessments being initiated for nuclear plants in Finland, South Africa's contemplation of 12 large nuclear plants, or yet another deal struck by Sarkozy lead France - but it doesn't matter). Someone made a comment about how the thread of positive nuclear news (from our perspective) would be impacting anti-nuclear activists. The idea came up about Elisabeth Kübler-Ross and her stages of grief. They are:

  1. Denial,
  2. Anger,
  3. Bargaining,
  4. Depression and
  5. Acceptance.

It seems to fit doesn’t it? I blogged about my thoughts, but here again I see a lot of anger. We will just have to be patient and work through it (not intended to be as patronising as it may sound).

Thanks for you time, energy and posts.

Thanks for the comment. As a scholar of nuclear science, I am more a historian than a scientist. I am interested in who are these people - the scientist - and why do they think the way they do. That requires me to understand enough about nuclear science to interpret their thoughts. I have high regard for many nuclear scientist like Alvin Weinberg and my father, who I regard as highly intelligent, competent and creative men who had astonishing vision, and great integrity.

I am certainly not a scientist. I am also a grump old man, who is inflicted with the pains and indignities of an aging body. Professionally I counseled drug addicts, and that very often counseling is a battle of wills. I learned that when facing an irrational client, it was better to let go of my anger than to try to keep it pent in. I have little patience for people who justify craziness. I might not be the best person to argue this post, but I will do my best. I have stated on more than one occasion that i am more than willing to dialogue with anyone who is willing to listen to what I say. It is quite obvious from some comments here have closed minds, and are only looking for excuses that nuclear power is bad. When I read comments that appear to deny basic facts. How could someone who pretends to be an informed participant in a debate on nuclear power ignore the fact that U-239 is fertile? I confess that I get annoyed. Is he for real? He presents himself as an expert on nuclear matters. How could he make such a blunder? Either his is claiming to be an expert on a subject about which he actually knows nothing, or he is using arguments which he knows to be phony, and hoping he won't get caught at it.

I'd really like to see us have these discussion threads in a civil fashion, without the personal attacks, insults and so forth.

I'm a big fan of MSBR/LFR technology, using thorium as the fuel, or using U/Pu fuel.

That said, I do have to say, respectfully, that I think Charles's comments like this are certainly potentially a little misleading, if not a little inaccurate:

"A thorium cycle reactor will produce less than ton of fission byproducts a year, most of which can be recycled by industry as soon as it comes of a reactor because it is no longer radioactive.

Most of the fission products produced in a thorium fuel cycle reactor have half lives of under 2 hours. Thus most fission products will have ceased being radioactive within a few days of being produced."

Yes, as with any reactor, even current uranium-fuelled LWRs, there is a lot of activity in the fuel that will decay very quickly - but there will still be quite a lot of activity in the fission products for a very long time.

There will still be lots of activity in the form of reasonably long lived fission products - Sr-90, Cs-137, Tc-99, I-129 and everything like that, for example - just as there is with current reactors.

There will still be lots of activity in the form of reasonably long lived fission products - Sr-90, Cs-137, Tc-99, I-129 and everything like that, for example - just as there is with current reactors.

Thank you for the clarification.

I have some questions, what about the costs of electricity produced in a MSR? Is the price even comparable with the price of 1kWh produced with a LWR (LWR electricity costs include waste deposit and buildback which should not be necessary to the same extend with a MSR if i understand the concept correct)?
As uran prices are rising, the cost of one kWh of power from a LWR will rise too, is there a point of break even in costs per kWh electricity compared to the MSR, or, not to be looked over, a CANDU.
Uranium extraction from seawater costs ~250$/kg of pure uranium (not yellow cake), so a cap is set to the maximum price uranium will achieve in the foreseable future.
Is the point of break between the costs of electricity produced with a MSR compared to a PWR even achievable with that fact in mind?

Uranium prices have almost no bearing on the cost of nuclear power; Its all wrapped up in capital and only slightly operation.

MSR's are potentially more economic because they have higher operating temperatures and thus higher efficiencies, no fuel fabrication costs, and potentially much lower capital costs (low pressure operation means massive pressure vessels aren't required.) Their risks are development, licensing, and costs of maintenance of a hot primary loop.

In regard to the Model T idea, if it was easy, it would have been done already. You need to remember the high capital cost of these plants along with long construction times (~4-5 years) create an incentive to make design changes. Technology advances so rapidly and commodity prices fluctuate so much that changes are almost a necessity. Not every power company needs new capacity at the same time so the plants will be built in increments and with every increment there will inevitably be changes.

Another comment on the constant comparison to France. It is not a good idea to have 80% of your electricity from nuclear power (at least with current technology). The first reason is that nuclear is best suited for baseload power, which is less than 80% of needed capacity. The second reason is that if you rely on a single source of power, you hold your economy hostage to the price of the fuel. Yes nuclear fuel is dirt cheap comparatively, but you don't know if it will always stay that way. Electricity is like investments, you must diversify into coal, nat gas, renewables, hydro, and (gulp) oil. I believe a goal of 30-40% nuclear generation is a proper and realistic goal for the next 30 years.

And finally, the ultimate solution for energy, probably hundreds of years away, is the ability to store electricity in mass quantities.

The second reason is that if you rely on a single source of power, you hold your economy hostage to the price of the fuel. Yes nuclear fuel is dirt cheap comparatively, but you don't know if it will always stay that way.

The fuel price would have to go up more than 50 fold before you started to notice a price difference.

And finally, the ultimate solution for energy, probably hundreds of years away, is the ability to store electricity in mass quantities.

You mean pumped hydro?

Pumped hydro is one means of storing energy, but there are plenty of others, for example :

- graphite, molten salt or even just hot water, as used in all the solar thermal plants that are now springing up
- flow batteries
- ultracapacitors (potentially), especially if the vehicle-to-grid idea can be made to work

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