DrumBeat: September 16, 2006

[Update by Leanan on 09/16/06 at 10:25 AM EDT]

Roberto has done some DrumBeat datamining: the number of posts per DrumBeat, number of posters, and how many posts has everyone contributed to DrumBeat.

(Click for larger versions)

The number of posts and the number of posters are increasing. And I would guess, from the second graph, that the 80-20 rule applies: 80% of the posts come from 20% of the visitors (though of course, Roberto had no way of knowing how many lurkers there were).


"Peak Oil" or Lots More Oil?


As prices tumble, doomsayers hold fast to prophecy

OTTAWA -- It's been a tough week for peak-oil theorists -- those limits-to-growth doomsayers who argue the world's crude oil supply has begun an inexorable decline that will force prices ever higher.


Peak Oil Preparations: Money And Labor


The Most Important Resource

Uh-oh, more bad news for peak-oil proponents: After a big Gulf of Mexico find that may top even Prudhoe Bay, a Saudi oilman says we're just beginning to tap the world's crude.


'Plundered Petroleum'? Someone's Stealing, But Not the U.S.


Get ready for price rationing, oil guru says

Groppe foresees new oil era of high prices, limited supply, new consumption patterns

...What this means is that investors and consumers shouldn't read too much into the recent 17-per-cent drop in crude prices from their August peaks, a move he dismissed as a typical seasonal dip.


Chile to be independent of Argentine gas by 2008


Bolivia's hydrocarbons minister resigns

The minister leading Bolivia's efforts to nationalize Bolivia's oil and gas operations resigned Friday after his government backed down in a dispute with Brazil's state-run energy company, the industry's biggest investor.


China Has Sophisticated Energy Strategy for Africa


U.S. presses China on energy prices


Interior Near 2 New Pacts in Oil Leases

The Interior Department, struggling to prevent the government from losing billions of dollars in royalties for oil and gas produced in publicly owned waters, said Thursday that it was close to agreement with 2 of the 56 companies that hold lucrative drilling leases in the Gulf of Mexico.


Air Force to Try Out a New Kind of Jet Fuel


Conference touts alternatives to oil


BP under pressure to boost capital spending


[Update by Leanan on 09/16/06 at 9:20 AM EDT]

Peak Science? In the September issue of Discover, Paul Horgan argues that we are reaching the limits of knowledge.

The greatest barrier to future progress in science is its past success. Scientific discovery resembles the exploration of the Earth. The more we know about our planet, the less there is to explore. We have mapped out all the continents, oceans, mountain ranges, and rivers. Every now and then we stumble upon a new species of lemur in an obscure jungle or an exotic bacterium in a deep-sea vent, but at this point we are unlikely to discover something truly astonishing, like dinosaurs dwelling in a secluded cavern. In the same way, scientists are unlikely to discover anything surpassing the Big Bang, quantum mechanics, relativity, natural selection, or genetics.

Just over a century ago, the American historian Henry Adams observed that science accelerates through a positive feedback effect: Knowledge begets more knowledge. This acceleration principle has an intriguing corollary. If science has limits, then it might be moving at maximum speed just before it hits the wall.

That is a silly thing to say.  Not that it hasn't been said before -- I'm sure Aristotle thought he was in posession of all knowledge.

We have, as a species, assembled a lot of "facts" about the universe, but there is a lot of work to do in putting them together in coherent, meaningful ways.  What we call science is a collection of hypotheses that more or less hold together in The Standard Model.  

The new science, however, will take more from Blake than from Newton or Einstein.

He addresses all those arguments in his article.
A simple basic question to prove/disprove Horgan::

  • Why did we get into the mess we're in
  • and how do we get out of it?

If we can find out how to answer even just one of the two, we disprove his statement, for that would surely be the biggest discovery in the history of science.

if we can't find out, which would indicate the end or limits to science, and prove him right, then all of us here at TOD, and many others, would be better off getting drunk and fornicating without limits, and starting right now.

We would be wasting our time trying any longer. And that, in turn, would be really stupid, hence the outcome of all science to date is stupidity.

NB: I'm very sceptical about the ultimate values of science and technology, a good case can be made to argue it has had more negative than positive impact on us and our world.

But still, to say "this is all there is to know" requires that you think you're really smart. Which contradicts the stupidity. Or are we all stupid except for Horgan?

It's kind of funny that the statement implies that he is smarter than us, and we'll never be able to prove him wrong.

Wait a minute, that's religion.


And wasn't it the US Patent office that stated in the late 1800, or early 1900's that there is nothing left to patent. Because all that there is to know has been patented.  
According to this site it's an urban legend

A clue to the origin of the myth may be found in Patent Office Commissioner Henry Ellsworth's 1843 report to Congress. In it he states, "The advancement of the arts, from year to year, taxes our credulity and seems to presage the arrival of that period when human improvement must end." But Commissioner Ellsworth was simply using a bit of rhetorical flourish to emphasize the growing number of patents as presented in the rest of the report. He even outlined specific areas in which he expected patent activity to increase in the future.
Yes, thanks. That clears it up for me.
There are some pretty prominent unsolved scientific problems, including

  1. Expanding universe - how did it all begin? did it have a beginning or do the proponents of pulsating universe and steady state universes have a point?
  2. Proper scientific bridge between quantum mechanics and relativity (i.e a proper theory of everything)
  3. In biology, there is no accepted theory of speciation - formation of 2 different species (i.e. those that cannot reproduce with each other) from a common ancestor.
  4. protein folding
  5. The entire field of brain science.
  6. civilizational longevity - how to create the system to coordinate the activities of milllions of people so that humanity can survive and sustain itself - if you go totally agro, as per the permaculture guys, you are just waiting to get whacked by an asteroid strike. If you go totally techno, then you might exhaust your concentrated sources of energy.
I doubt whether Aristotle thought he was in possession of all knowledge, since he had a notoriously insatiable appetite for acquiring more of it.
Aristotle was not that sort of arrogant dummy. Reading and rereading Aristotle is rewarding just as is reading Shakespeare. Though far fewer trouble themselves to read Aristotle. The Richard McKeon translations are exemplary.
the "intelligent design" proponents have already concluded that there is nothing new to discover scientifically because it is always the same   just another manifestation of intelligent design  a line of thinking that is directly parallel to the cornucopians   "new and improved technology"  blah blah blah  abiotic source    blah blah blah    jacks two    blah blah blah
The issue isn't that there's nothing new to learn. It's that the frontiers of science are at a point where it takes huge amounts of work and money to advance them any further. In physics, we need particle colliders whose prices are increasing without cease. In biology, we have to go to nastier and nastier places to discover new organisms. As the price goes up, we have to accept that many of the scientific questions we have posed are questions that will go unanswered for long amounts of time.
They were still talking about this one on NPR this week:

http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Publications/ZooGoer/2001/2/intoxnewguineabirds.cfm

Here's a more recent find, along a highway, of all "nastier and nastier places to discover new organisms:"

http://www.620ktar.com/?nid=35&sid=223161

The article is a load of rubbish. "Chaoplexologists"? The guy is a "science journalist", they invariably know sod all about the actual science, although they love to pretend they do.

He dismisses the potential of the Human Genome project with a few recent examples of failure, but we have barely scratched the surface yet.

He mixes up facts, knowledge and understanding. There are clearly areas where knowledge is limited, but he manages to miss most of them.

Sorry, but this type of "analysis" is just tabloid drivel. It makes a catchy headline and sells books, no doubt.

I actually subscribed to Discover so I could read that article, and having done so, I am just as annoyed with the content as I was when I let my subscription lapse years ago.

He immediately dismisses Popper and Kuhn -- as if by doing so, he can declare them finally wrong and irrelevant -- and eliminate the obvious problem that all of science really is an elaborate paradigm that is made up of provisional hypotheses.

In his article, Horgan gets to write both the questions and the answers -- he is the author, after all.  So he gets to control the frame, and therefore guarantees that he will win the argument.

Human imagination has not scratched the surface of its possibilities.  We may have gone as far as we can with atoms -- for now anyway -- but perhaps it is time for art to take over from science.

This guy's statement is no different in its arrogance than "we've reached the end of history," with similar consequences.
Or the end of cheap oil.
I think its pretty counterintuitive but basically sound anyway. Many fo the easier and most important discoveries from science that impact our lives have indeed already been discovered and I think its safe to say the pace at which new ones with the same profound impacts are decreasing. Hence, peak science, as far as meaningful discoveries go.

The laws of physics have been pretty well laid out and well known, how many new and really important discoveries have there been in recnet history? Not many IMHO.

Sure, medical science has made big strides at figuring out how we as humans function and how to deal with fixing us when we dont function properly but how much has that added to our lifespans? The really important knowledge like anti-biotics and sanitation came long ago, same with many of the surgical techniques which save lives also happened long ago. Nowadays these techniques have just gotten better, not re-invented really.

Like almost everything else the low hanging easy fruit has already been picked, and that IS very much intuitive.

Despite all these advances man collectively still hasnt been able to learn and grasp one of the easiest lessons of all, the simple equation which describes exponential growth and what its implications are.

One thing that hasn't changed is hubris. And, of course, you have adequately surveyed human knowledge and can say with blissful certainty that all the important discoveries have already been made.

From what mountaintop you speak, I really don't know.  Perhaps you would enlighten the rest of us?  

If I remember correctly, many scientists were saying the same thing a century ago--just a few minor touches are left.

You realize, of course, that to assert this kind of knowledge you must know more than mankind does now.  I am impressed.

As always,

Your humble servant and admirer

go get me a beer
Stormy, I really do not think you read the article at all. Horgan never said "with blissful certainty" that all important discoveries have already been made. In fact he said the exact opposite.

Argument: If you really believe science is over, why do you still write about it? Despite my ostensible pessimism, I keep writing about science, I also teach at a science-oriented school, and I often encourage young people to become scientists. Why? First of all, I could simply be wrong--there, I've said it--that science will never again yield revelations as monumental as evolution or quantum mechanics. A team of neuroscientists may find an elegant solution to the neural code, or physicists may find a way to confirm the existence of extra dimensions.

What Horgan is saying is that we have reached the point of diminishing returns. Even a critic acknowledges this:

Even Lee acknowledges the challenge. "Fundamental discoveries are becoming more and more expensive and more difficult to achieve," he says. His own Nobel helps make the point. The Russian physicist Pyotr Kapitsa discovered the strange phenomenon known as superfluidity in liquid helium in 1938. Lee and two colleagues merely extended that work, showing that superfluidity also occurs in a helium isotope known as helium 3. In 2003, yet another Nobel Prize was awarded for investigations of superfluidity. Talk about anticlimactic!

We are seeing the same thing in the oil patch. More and more effort is going into finding less and less. What Horgan is saying is that most, if not all, really major discoveries have already been discovered. And virtually all new scientific discoveries comes from just filling in the blanks. DNA was discovered half a century ago. The human genome project is just an addition to that data bank. In fact about all the human genome project did was count the number of genes.

Horgan acknowleges that many mysteries remain to be solved. Yet these things are likely to remain unsolved. "Why is there something instead of nothing?" "What caused the big bang?" And I can think of at least a dozen more myself. And I like the Horgan's take on fusion.

William Parkins, a nuclear physicist and veteran of the Manhattan Project, recently advocated abandoning fusion-energy research, which he called "as expensive as it is discouraging." If there are breakthroughs here, the current generation probably will not live to see them.

Fifty years ago fusion energy was only twenty years away. Today, it is a lot further away than that.

What major new scientific discovery has happened in the last decade. Gamma Ray Burst? No, they were discovered a lot longer ago than that. In the last decade we have discovered that they come from deep space, not within our galaxy. We have simply filled in a blank.

I find it astonishing that people who argue that science still has many new and bright discoveries to reveal to us simply do not recognize the dramatic drop off in major scientific discoveries in the last two decades.

Ron Patterson

A typical way of looking at subjects like this is a function of a person's age: it's never the young who claim the end of science. The old feel better about themselves and the increasing notion of their mortality if they state it's all just about been done. It adds value to (the end of) their lives.

I find it astonishing to claim a "dramatic drop off in major scientific discoveries in the last two decades".

What Horgan is saying is that most, if not all, really major discoveries have already been discovered. And virtually all new scientific discoveries comes from just filling in the blanks.

Exactly, and that makes him an obsolete preacher.

FWIW, I'll believe the end of science when Nobels become genuinely boring.  They aren't yet.  Some very interesting work is being done.

... of course the gurus will tell you not to look a the achievements, but some bizarre notion of averages or returns.

First, it is moving goalposts to go from end of science to diminishing returns.

Second, both of these arguments rely on civilization-wide measures and averages of knowledge and progress.

I've never thought either one of those simplifications are appropriate.  There are a great number of small, discrete, questions that mean a great deal to me.  For instance:

Is the ocean ecosystem stable in its current population dynamics and genetic diversity?

(It's amusing that this question might lead to a contradiction.  People who feel we are at the end of "science" will tell me what we'll learn about those oceans in the coming decades.)

I said "blissful certainty," not Horgan.  I was being a bit sarcastic; guess you missed that.  I was having fun.

To say that we are just filling in the blanks or that the rest of knowledge is just going to become increasingly and prohibitively expensive is to reveal a surprising lack of understanding of the theoretical underpinnings of science and the problems therein.

As for what new discoveries have occurred within the last decade....hmmm "dark energy"? Problems with the cosmological constant?  Just to name a few "trivial conceptual problems."  (Quotation marks for effect.)  Does 1998 count as within the decade?

I am well aware of the history of science and its struggle to pull disparate facts together.  I also am a daily reader of science, and I am amazed at the number of discoveries that occur almost daily, many of which challenge our conceptual framework.   For example, the lowly vole has recently made it into the news with a genetic construct that possibly makes it an "evolutionary enigma."  (That is a quotation.)  (No expensive science here.)

This is not new:

Brian Appleyard, article in the Times a year ago:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2099-1813695,00.html

Excerpt:

''Jonathan Huebner is an amiable, very polite and very correct physicist who works at the Pentagon's Naval Air Warfare Center in China Lake, California. He took the job in 1985, when he was 26. An older scientist told him how lucky he was. In the course of his career, he could expect to see huge scientific and technological advances. But by 1990, Huebner had begun to suspect the old man was wrong. "The number of advances wasn't increasing exponentially, I hadn't seen as many as I had expected -- not in any particular area, just generally."
Puzzled, he undertook some research of his own. He began to study the rate of significant innovations as catalogued in a standard work entitled The History of Science and Technology. After some elaborate mathematics, he came to a conclusion that raised serious questions about our continued ability to sustain progress. What he found was that the rate of innovation peaked in 1873 and has been declining ever since. In fact, our current rate of innovation -- which Huebner puts at seven important technological developments per billion people per year -- is about the same as it was in 1600. By 2024 it will have slumped to the same level as it was in the Dark Ages, the period between the end of the Roman empire and the start of the Middle Ages.
The calculations are based on innovations per person, so if we could keep growing the human population we could, in theory, keep up the absolute rate of innovation. But in practice, to do that, we'd have to swamp the world with billions more people almost at once. That being neither possible nor desirable, it seems we'll just have to accept that progress, at least on the scientific and technological front, is slowing very rapidly indeed.
Huebner offers two possible explanations: economics and the size of the human brain. Either it's just not worth pursuing certain innovations since they won't pay off -- one reason why space exploration has all but ground to a halt -- or we already know most of what we can know, and so discovering new things is becoming increasingly difficult. We have, for example, known for over 20 years how cancer works and what needs to be done to prevent or cure it. But in most cases, we still have no idea how to do it, and there is no likelihood that we will in the foreseeable future.
Huebner's insight has caused some outrage. The influential scientist Ray Kurzweil has criticised his sample of innovations as "arbitrary"; K Eric Drexler, prophet of nanotechnology, has argued that we should be measuring capabilities, not innovations. Thus we may travel faster or access more information at greater speeds without significant innovations as such.
Huebner has so far successfully responded to all these criticisms. Moreover, he is supported by the work of Ben Jones, a management professor at Northwestern University in Illinois. Jones has found that we are currently in a quandary comparable to that of the Red Queen in Through the Looking Glass: we have to run faster and faster just to stay in the same place. Basically, two centuries of economic growth in the industrialised world has been driven by scientific and technological innovation. We don't get richer unaided or simply by working harder: we get richer because smart people invent steam engines, antibiotics and the internet. What Jones has discovered is that we have to work harder and harder to sustain growth through innovation. More and more money has to be poured into research and development and we have to deploy more people in these areas just to keep up. "The result is," says Jones, "that the average individual innovator is having a smaller and smaller impact."
Like Huebner, he has two theories about why this is happening. The first is the "low-hanging fruit" theory: early innovators plucked the easiest-to-reach ideas, so later ones have to struggle to crack the harder problems. Or it may be that the massive accumulation of knowledge means that innovators have to stay in education longer to learn enough to invent something new and, as a result, less of their active life is spent innovating. "I've noticed that Nobel-prize winners are getting older," he says. "That's a sure sign it's taking longer to innovate." The other alternative is to specialise -- but that would mean innovators would simply be tweaking the latest edition of Windows rather than inventing the light bulb. The effect of their innovations would be marginal, a process of making what we already have work slightly better. This may make us think we're progressing, but it will be an illusion.
If Huebner and Jones are right, our problem goes way beyond Windows. For if innovation is the engine of economic progress -- and almost everybody agrees it is -- growth may be coming to an end. Since our entire financial order -- interest rates, pension funds, insurance, stock markets -- is predicated on growth, the social and economic consequences may be cataclysmic.
Is it really happening? Will progress grind to a halt? The long view of history gives conflicting evidence. Paul Ormerod, a London-based economist and author of the book Why Most Things Fail, is unsure. "I am in two minds about this. Biologists have abandoned the idea of progress -- we just are where we are. But humanity is so far in advance of anything that has gone before that it seems to be a qualitative leap."

or it may be that the massive accumulation of knowledge means that innovators have to stay in education longer to learn enough to invent something new, and as a result, less of their active life is spent innovating

I see this subject as a parallel problem to PO.  The PO story is vitally important to humanity, yet only a small portion of the population recognizes it.  There is other exceptional knowledge known today, but unrecognized by the vast majority of people. Some of it is caused by short-comings in our educational system, some of it because only capitalism-driven knowledge gets pursued, some of it from pure knowledge overload.  The challenge is in recognizing the worthwhile science.

For my examples, I'll use the medical field.  Scientific studies get funded and reported, proven and then debunked.  Complexity of the system and knowledge overload is unargueably a problem today, as well as the need to run it as a business which is influenced by drug companies and medical equipment suppliers.
From my own reading, it is my humble belief that IV vitamin C could assist our immune systems in combatting viral diseases (yes, that would include bird flu), as well as accelerating recoveries dramatically post-surgically.  There are a small percentage of physicians who know this and do it, but I cannot understand why all do not.  It is cheap with practically no side effects. See a news item from this past week:  Vitamin C Helps West Nile Victim
Another way to improve the immune system greatly is through diet.  Read Food as Medicine by Dharma Singh Klalsa.  I guess that's called preventive health care, something that most people just don't care about.
Globalization will, I am hopeful, be the best thing that ever happened to medicine at some future time.  In our arrogance, western medicine has refuted age old techniques such as accupuncture because they could not explain it, but it is becoming mainstream.
Honoring the Medicine--The Essential Guide to Native American Healing by Ken Cohen is one of the first books which documents another type of medicine.  When one starts to see the overlaps between indigenous cultures, one starts to realize that we have disregarded some important knowledge.

There are many people today who feel we are on the verge of a human consciousness evolution.  This is not without scientific basis.  We may underestimate its power.  Maybe I'll learn something tomorrow when I hear the Dalai Lama speak in Denver on The Science of a Compassionate Life sponsored by the Mind and Life Institute
I'm looking forward to hearing this man who's hobby has been taking watches apart and putting them back together.

Diminishing returns doesn't mean no bright new discoveries, just fewer of them, and especially when one under-invests.

Parkins, here, seems to me like one of those tired old crusty guys you sometimes encounter, who has decided to plant at least one foot solipsistically and firmly in the grave. Indeed, much of the article carries the same baggage, although at the end, Horgan - strangely - still sees a point to encouraging young people to take up science.

As to fusion specifically, these days, $20 billion, or $13 billion, spread over a period of decades, is chickenfeed, not remotely comparable to spending over the same time even on something as trivial as lipstick. Large populations produce large numbers, duh. A favorite rhetorical trick, of course, is to aggregate spending over decades if one wants to say it is too much, but state the daily amount - or even the daily amount per capita - if one wants to say it is too little. Last time I looked, the U.S. was spending under $1 million a day on fusion. Or 0.3 American cents per capita. Hahahaha. It's immeasurably small chickenfeed that way too.

And, remember, as with anything else labelled "nuclear", much of that is spent not on researchers and equipment, but on: paperwork, accountants, plush-bottomed bureaucrats, fearfully hypercautious "safety officers", writers of managerial "reports", legislators angling for lucre for their own localities, and a wide variety of other such social parasites.

We're not yet running out of science, even though we've already discovered electricity and need not discover it again. We're merely suffering the side effects of "democracy" - paralysis induced in part by constant shameless political fearmongering designed to fetch the votes of the Great Shiftless Quivering Terrified Moron Mass. Somehow we just know it's all over, so we act to ensure artificially that it shall be all over. And besides, it's nuclear, sound the quivering dissonant quartile chord.

Faith-based self-limitation, I guess.

When we've faithfully self-limited ourselves into a sufficiently cramped and awful corner, I suppose we'll just have to give up on democracy and appoint a proconsul to sort out our mess. Or at least, that's the way it has always been done, over the millennia.

Note that most advocates of diminishing returns state them as "per somethting," normalized to population or economic investment.  As if someone's totals, or those totals divided by some other number, mean something.

From the standpoint of human aspiration, it may be enough for a future scientist to find something interestint to work on. From his perspective that's enough.

Form the standpoint of energy consumers looking at a reductino in oil production ... we are converned with very specific things: the advancement of energy efficiencies and energy alternatives.

Does an average matter in either case?  Not to the result, certainly.  Only, perhaps, to those trying to prove something else entirely ...

Yeah. And for those who have (strangely) persuaded themselves that a backbreaking neo-medieval peasant "utopia" would be the best possible world, I suppose nothing at all matters, not even the averages. Sigh.
although at the end, Horgan - strangely - still sees a point to encouraging young people to take up science.

Why do you find that strange?  After all, many who believe in peak oil are still investing in oil and gas companies, or working for the oil industry.

I find it strange because the "end of science" idea seems to me more suggestive of simply giving up and going on to something else. Or just retreating forever into pointless entertainment on the grounds that there's nothing new under the sun so why bother. And why bother is a reaction that's not far below the surface of some parts of this thread...
Oh, I forgot...or retreat into violent quasi-religious fanaticism...there's plenty of that going around too.
I find it strange because the "end of science" idea seems to me more suggestive of simply giving up and going on to something else.

I don't see it that way at all.  Just as we will never actually run out of oil, we will continue to make scientific discoveries.  It will just be harder and more expensive to find them, and convert them into useful form.

And why bother is a reaction that's not far below the surface of some parts of this thread...

I don't see it as "why bother," but as a warning that we cannot depend on science to rescue is.  It has in the past, but that does not mean it will continue to do so in the future.  

Personally, I don't find it counterintuitive at all.  I think the reason his book did so well is that it hits on something that most people intuitively grasp: the pace of scientific discover is slowing down.  

Many Americans of the boomer generation expected to grow up to live a Jetsons-like existence.  It hasn't happened.  No flying cars.  No colonizing other planets.  No three-hour workday, or three-day workweek.  Why not?  IMO, the answer is declining marginal returns.

I've got a lot of academics in my family, and this is something they've noticed for years.  It's becoming harder and harder to come up with a decent dissertation.  So much is already known that it's difficult to come up with anything that's both original and significant.  Instead, new dissertations are "islands of trivia in a sea of minutiae."  Some are pushing for changing the traditional requirements for dissertations because of this.

Do you ask yourself if this is confirmation bias in action?

What if you looked outside yourself, or these gurus of end-of-things, and polled scientists?  Do we know how many of them have set an "end of knowledge" in the coming decades?  Or what is the timeframe?

(I'd really like a position that is survey-based, rather than guru-based.)

Lord, just think what Einstein might of figured out if had only spent more time doing surveys.