Ammonia and Biofuels

The following is a guest post by Dave Bradley (TOD User: nb41), who has some very good technical essays on wind power (as well as his contact info) here. Dave introduced himself to me via e-mail several months ago, and after exchanging a few e-mails in which we covered many technical issues, it became clear that we share a number of very similar interests. One of Dave's essays that caught my attention involved the very interesting idea of using excess wind power to make methanol, ethanol, or even ammonium nitrate fertilizer. But Dave doesn't just throw an idea out there; he gets into the important technical details. I first mentioned Dave's paper in my essay on Compressed Air Energy Storage.

Dave explains in the following essay how we could use renewable energy to make nitrogen fertilizer, thus taking some of the fossil fuel inputs out of biofuels production. By doing so, the energy return would be substantially improved, which is one thing that must happen before biofuels can be truly sustainable. So, it is my pleasure to present Dave Bradley's ideas for helping to mitigate our energy problems.

Ammonia and Biofuels

Since biofuels (and right now ethanol, alias EtOH) are the subject of some controversy regarding the composition of fuel blends used in transportation, many arguments invoke the "ammonia problem". As our country is currently arranged, almost all ammonia (=NH3) produced or imported is partly derived from natural gas, although the high price and higher probable future price are going to bring coal into the ammonia equation. NH3 or its many derivatives (and "natural" forms, like manure) are essential for high productivity agriculture, especially as defined and practiced in the U.S. It also is how plants manufacture amino acids/proteins; after all, there is no nitrogen in molecules like glucose, fructose, sucrose, starch and cellulose. My interest is in getting the "non-renewables" out of renewable energy (and fuels in particular) as much as possible, and this semi-torrent of misinformation on NH3 is somewhat frustrating, so maybe this effort will lead to a more informed discussion.

The nitrogen molecule is very stable; one of its primary uses is as an "inerting gas" (ever knit a nitrogen blanket?). I have used N2 as an inerting/diluent for fluorine, so that is a good measure of the stability of the N2 molecule. To become useful to plants, the N2 molecule must be either oxidized with oxygen (making nitrites and nitrates) or reduced with, in some way, hydrogen, which can then be used in a myriad of routes. In nature, elemental nitrogen is oxidized by lightning, while reduction (to ammonia and other forms) occurs as a result of some bacterial action on either elemental or oxidized nitrogen. Other bacteria take reduced nitrogen (amines, amides, ammonia) and oxidize it to nitrites/nitrates, which are then reduced to elemental nitrogen (and in the process used as a source of oxygen) by other bacteria, and thus keeping a balance in nature. There are some crops (notably, beans) which can nurture nitrogen fixing bacteria around their roots, but the production rate of these bacteria is insufficient to supply the plant with enough nitrogen at high productivity levels; after all, soybean production consumes a lot of nitrogen based fertilizers.

The N2 molecule reduction occurs when a catalyst coordinates with the triple bond, and this lowers the activation energy for reactions. N2 reduction by H2 molecules is actually a fairly exothermic reaction (-10.96 kcal/gm-mole), or about 1161 Btu liberated per lb formed. In other words, a bit more than one pound of steam can be made for each pound of NH3 made. NH3 has been produced industrially at large scale since the invention of the Haber Process, where the use of an alkali promoted iron sponge catalyzed the reaction of N2 and H2 at high pressures (200 + atmospheres) and elevated temperatures. This ends up being an equilibrium process, where the extent of conversion of N2 is determined by the temperature, pressure and mole ratios in the reaction zone. With the iron sponge system, conversions per pass are a bit more than 17 %; after separating out the ammonia, the unreacted N2 and H2 are sent back to the reactor. Separating out the ammonia involves stepping down from the supercritical (for NH3) conditions. Thus, producing NH3 from the two elements might involve a lot of energy, but clever engineering can cut this down considerably (for example, using turbines to depressurize the reaction mixture, recovering a considerable quantity of energy that can be used for compressing N2 and H2 to reacting conditions).

Better catalysts have been developed to improve the per-pass conversion, such as those used in the KAPP system. Nowadays, a combination of the KOH-activated iron sponge (initial catalyst) and ruthenium (similar to iron, but 4d instead of 3d on the periodic table) now are used to achieve about 25% per-pass conversion. In addition, due to the heat liberated by the reaction/need for temperature control (at around 500 F), steam cogeneration can be employed to take the reaction energy and use it to (at least partially) drive the enormous gas compressors needed in industrial scale processors. Obviously, catalyst poisoning is highly undesired, so reasonably pure H2 and N2 are required for raw material feedstocks. In addition, CO2 is also an undesired input impurity, as this would lead to urea and other complications, "gumming up the works". Obviously, O2 would just consume H2, further wasting time and effort.

As originally practiced, the N2 for the Haber Process was readily obtained by cryogenic air distillation. The H2 could be obtained by electrolysis of water, which would make very pure H2 high quality feed with relative ease. This process was extensively practiced in Norway by Norsk Hydro (and its predecessors), and was also used in North America (for example, at Trail, British Columbia, on the Columbia River, 15 miles north of the border) by Airco (now BOC). The H2 could also be made by the water gas reaction using coal or petroleum, but the resulting syn-gas had to be extensively cleaned up of ash, sulfur, arsenic, CO, CO2, and other chemical "varmints". In fact, the H2 purification part of the site would be one of the largest and most expensive parts of an NH3 plant.

As the 20th century rolled on, methane became the H2 source of choice, as it was really cheap, readily available and easy to use compared to coal. The water gas reaction is endothermic, so energy must be supplied in the form of steam (water feed) and just plain heat to drive the reaction; carbon is removed eventually as CO and/or CO2, and any CO can be readily oxidized to provide more energy for this process. In other words, preparing NH3 from CH4 also involves the co-production of CO2. Thus, using natural gas as a feedstock for NH3 production does contribute to global warming, especially considering the volumes of NH3 produced. Obviously, coal use for NH3 synthesis sends us to the proverbial "Big Fryer Down Below" at a faster rate, environmentally speaking. But in general, people will say they care about future generations, but rarely do anything about their utterances, such as pay higher energy taxes. You know, the "fertilizer walks" saying.

Up until the Crooked E (Enron) started doing its organized and unorganized criminal run on California, most NH3 was priced around $100/ton. Nowadays it is around $450/ton, and a considerable amount of U.S. NH3 production has been shut down. We now import a lot of NH3 from places like Trinidad, which have more Ngas than they can readily consume, and cheap local Ngas prices. However, these high prices are providing a hint of where future, non-polluting NH3 can be made - from wind turbines. In fact, using any H2 made in large scale from wind turbine derived electricity for NH3 synthesis may prove much smarter than using this H2 as boiler fuel or for transport in SS 304 pipelines to cities. In some ways, this is a perfect match of a vast wind resource (on the Great Plains) with vast farming regions. Sending electricity in bulk to metropolitan areas will not leave a lot of that created value (from wind turbines on farmland) on the farm. So the use of this electricity to make NH3, like EtOH preparation from relatively worthless (money-wise) crops like corn, could be viewed as adding value to an otherwise cheap commodity for rural communities.

Anyway, at one time in the recent past, NH3 consumption on the farm was about 12 million/tons/yr, out of 14 million tons/yr produced. To make all 14 million tons/yr of NH3, about 2.47 million tons/yr of H2 must be prepared and purified (or just prepared and dried in the case of electrolysis). To make 1 ton of H2 using industrial scale electrolysis units requires about 45 MW-hr. So, if electrolysis units operate at 8700 hr/yr, a steady rate of about 72.5 GW of electricity would be needed, requiring 194 GW of wind turbine capacity, or 77,600 x 2.5 MW wind turbines operating at an average capacity of 37.5 % to make all the H2 needed to make all the NH3 used in the USA.

And the last statistics - corn growing uses about 40% of U.S. ammonia fertilizer, while soybean production uses about 6%. These crops use up about 6 million tons of NH3 per year. And most of that ends up going out the "exhaust ports" of cows, pigs and chickens.....and never ends up being consumed as food by the human carnivores who (in general) manufacture the cows, pigs, and chickens via factory farming/feedlots. A strange world, and not a pretty one with regards to how that part of the US food supply is concerned, so if you don't like it ugly, don't look at it too closely.

So, some big questions on this topic could be:

What price Global Meltdown?

Is there room in the Midwest for 77,600 turbines (each one occupies about 1/16 acre for the (largely) buried foundation)?

What is 5% of U.S. Ngas consumption worth, especially 10 years from now?

And the view....how can we compensate some people for the grief of actually observing how some of their energy is produced?

Meanwhile, back to the EtOH energy balance for a minute. In theory, a corn farm uses about 1500 Btu/gallon of EtOH for electricity on the farm, and about 7500 Btu/gal EtOH for the NH3 consumed. The electricity used on the farm that could be made from non-renewables such as coal, Ngas and nukes also could be made from wind turbines, especially in the Great Plains/Great Lakes area. But the H2 preparation for NH3 synthesis will not be changed until fossil fuel prices rise, and the external costs of this fossil fuel consumption are reflected in the price. And the same goes for other Ngas consuming activities. On a raw material basis, the breakeven point is for a delivered price of natural gas at $11.60/MBtu (not Henry Hub!) and wind turbine electricity at 5 c/kw-hr delivered.

Meanwhile, the electricity consumption of a corn to EtOH facility is about 1.2 kw-hr/gallon of EtOH produced (with CO2 recovery), less if it is vented off (CO2 compression uses about 185 kw-hr/ton recovered). Each billion gallons made uses an average of about 160 MW. Lets say we get up to 10 billion gallons/yr in the near future. Powering up these plants with non-polluting electricity would only require about 4300 of these same wind turbines. But on the accounting end of things, if this electricity were directed in this manner to EtOH plants, a significant reduction in the amount of non-renewable energy used to make EtOH would be the result. However, according to some, this is just an accounting trick. And again, putting more renewable in renewable fuels won't happen until it gets more expensive to use fossil fuels for such processes, and also more expensive to pollute our atmosphere with excess CO2, which is roughly equal to the quantity of anthropogenic CO2 made these days (remember the Frog Boiling article on TOD?). And given today's stilted economics, also something not likely to happen in the near future until energy prices are "re-prioritized".

Your thoughts......

Nice. I'll have to re-read for the details. How about a Big Picture?


The Nitrogen Cycle -- Click to Enlarge

That should help, I think.

I would like to complete the picture from David Cohen a bit by stressing the free use of bacteria in delivering nitrogen for all sort of plants in sufficient amount. The amount of artificial fertilizer used in the world could be reduced a lot, if the knowledge about Nitrogen fixing bacterias, which already exists, would be transferred to all the farmers around the world. What about spreading the good news via TV and the usually good broadcasts like the "Discovery Channel" or BBC documentations.

I'm only a software developer, but i learned a lot in the last two years about farming through the german forum about peak oil.

The solution for delivering enough nitrogen to the plants at very low costs is called "Biological Nitrogen Fixation".

Legumes such as clover or beans already use that process ever since. Today this process can be transferred also to non-legume plants like rice, wheat, maize etc. .
In Brazil this is used since a quite few years:  (" Boddey, R. M., S. Urquiaga, V. Reis, and J. Döbereiner. 1991. Biological nitrogen fixation associated with sugar cane. Plant Soil 137:111-117.".(List of books: http://biblioweb.dgsca.unam.mx/libros/microbios/Cap9/c9bi.html)) by implementing the bacteria called Acetobacter diazotrophicus in the roots and stems. So this bacteria is doing now the work of the fertilizer refineries.
Brazil already has a quite low demand for artificial fertilizer despite his huge areas of sugar cane.

In the last years scientist discovered other bacterias for the non-leguminous plants:

For wheat: : Azospirillum brasilense (=Spirillum lipoferum)
For soja: Bradyrhizobium japonicum
For rape (Brassica napus): Azorhizobum caulinodans (the transfer process is enhanced together with Naringenin, which you can find in simple tomato concentrate from your local supermarket ;-) )

To use these bacterias (you can buy them already per Internet) one just has to inoculate the seed with a solution of water and sugar together with a certain amount (from a bottle) a few hours before the sowing e.g. in a small mobile concrete mixer for a single field or in a big concrete mixer for a whole landscape.
The only restriction for the best results is a good soil. Like you can't beat an old horse to win the famous races in the world you can't get super yiels from a soil which has been "totured" by the massive use of artificial fertilizer.

A long crop rotation together with cover crops for green manure would certainly enhance the soil quality. Another possibility would be to plant trees in rows every 30-50 yards in the fields (for getting wood for constructions or for the oven and for getting a protection of sun, wind and too much transpiration in dry areas). This method is called Agroforestry and which is i think an ancient culture which is now revived e.g. in Europe (Project SAFE = Silvoarable Agroforestry For Europe). Very important is to cut the roots of the trees which are growing into the field by not squeezing the water for the plants.

Here are some links for deeper information. What really sad is, is that texts that are easy to understand are quite seldom in the net (Wikipedia e.g. has only few information about this biological "sensation"):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhizobia
http://nap.edu/readingroom/books/bnf/chapter1.html
http://www.soils.wisc.edu/~hickey/Soils_523/PartII/p2_section2/

A scientific articel (PDF-Document) about "Potential use of rhizobial bacteria as promoters of plant
growth for increased yield in landraces of African
cereal crops
"
http://www.academicjournals.org/ajb/PDF/Pdf2004/JanPDFs2004/Matiru%20and%20Dakora.pdf

Short description of actual work about "Gluconacetobacter diazotrophicus" by Professor Edward Cocking of the University of Nottingham:
http://www.autumn-design.co.uk/plant/research_cocking.html

About the "Dinitrogen-Fixing Bacteria":
http://141.150.157.117:8080/prokPUB/chaphtm/022/COMPLETE.htm

The role of Bio-fertilizer  (Azospirillum SP) with organic and inorganic sources of nitrogen on quality and yield of rice:
http://www.osmania.ac.in/MicroBiology/13p02.htm

An articel advice in "Plant and Soil": Yield increases in spring wheat (Triticum aestivum L.) inoculated with Azospirillum lipoferum under greenhouse and field conditions of a temperate region (129)
http://www.uni-hohenheim.de/i3ve/00068900/21223041.htm

A scientific articel about "Enhanced Soybean Plant Growth Resulting from Coinoculation of Bacillus Strains with Bradyrhizobium japonicum":
http://crop.scijournals.org/cgi/content/full/43/5/1774

I attended an excellent presentation at HydroVision about the Grand Inga hydroproject.  Basically a massive 44 GW (44,000 MW) "run-of-river" scheme (storage for daily/weekly peaks but not seasonal).

The Congo River has uniquely stable flow since half of the watershed is north of the equator and the other half south.  Still, the weekly minimal flow is half the maximum weekly flow.  The year to year variation is also small.

The primary use of Grand Inga would be, with existing & planned hydro projects and massive HV DC lines in all directions to provide basically all of Africa's electricity from renewable sources.  Perhaps some exports to Spain & Italy.

However, there would surplus power at times (why build a 2,000 km power line for peak use 10% of the time) and the production of ammonia is likely.

The capital cost and labor costs for a plant that is used half the time is acceptable IF the power is extremely cheap (8 euros per MWh was hypothesized).  But at much less than 50% load factor, it appears that it would be cheaper to let the water just spill and the world loses this renewable resource.

The economics of an ammonia plant in Africa in a failed state are different than in the US, but the fact remains that ammonia production capacity factor needs to be relatively high.  (Skilled workforce has to be kept on payroll regardless of production).

Best Hopes,

Alan

Big dams have tended to be a disaster for the indigenous people and the ecosystem.  Even if you don't care about that, you would face decades of desparate opposition.  Africa is not China, nor is it Northern Quebec.

Just the carbon release from the flooded rainforest alone would probably offset much of the benefit in the short term.

Better to build a series of smaller dams-- which is what the British proposed for Aswan, but Nasser wanted a great big dam and all of the attendant prestige.  So we got 'Lake Nasser' and some of the world's most precious archaeological sites were flooded, forever.  And there is massive evaporation, salt destruction of the temples at Luxor, etc.

A stereotype of "big dams" without looking at specifics.

Grand Inga could produce the equilavent of 40 or so nuclear plants.  Provide a stable power supply without greenhouse emmissions.  Equal to roughly the entire world's installed windpower ! Get an entire continent on renewables !!

Inga I & II and been in operation for decades.  Marginal additional rainforest covered with Grand Inga.

The smaller dams have been built, Inga I & II (II is being expanded, new turbines added).

Grand Inga could supply power when droughts reduce supply in smaller river systems.  Total rainfall will not decline with global warming, but increase.  And an Africa wide grid (Africa is second largest continent) of local hydro and Grand Inga should be quite stable with global warming.

About 120 years of hydrology data.  Rainfall from two seperate systems that are mirror images of each other make a best case for Grand Inga.

I reject your criticism.  Perfect appears to be the only acceptable solution for you.  

Grand Inga seems as close to perfect as any unrealized real world solution that I have seen.  (Niagara Falls hydro, 4 GW, is best energy source in the world IMO).  Massive positive gains with minimal downside.  A good % of world's nitrogen fertilizer as a side benefit (think reduced NG use and less global warming).

It would be good to read something on it.  I know nothing about the specific project.

I am just a sceptic of that kind of megaproject. The outcomes tend to fall short of the promises.  Usually there was a less grand, less risky strategy that could have been applied as I cited re the Nile.

The drought problem remains. Maybe the world's rainfall goes up, maybe Africa's rainfall is stable/ goes up.  Maybe.

I am prejudiced on Niagara (or rather St. Lawrence Power which was kind of a grandson).  My father built a part of it ;-), and my parents met there ;-).  

Probably Churchill Falls was an even bigger success, but marred by the fact that Newfoundland signed an agreement with Quebec that had no CPI price escalator.  Quebec Hydro has been banking billions on that deal ever since.

Well the problem with this are too numerous to list, but the largest and  severest one is this is the thinking that has put us where we are -- we're going to remake the earth -- and it's certainly not going to get us out.
I actually tend to disagree with this.  The problem we have is due to our unintentional impact on the Earth.  We have operated in a damaging fashion because we haven't looked at the large scale impacts of our actions.  If we accepted our ability to effect the environment that would be a step in the right direction.  No matter what we're going to impact the Earth, if we try to do so with an eye on the big picture, and how we can change things for the better, we stand to do much better than we currently are doing.  
Aswan was before my time, but my understanding is that the key to building a high dam was not prestige but irrigation.  

Lake Nasser significantly increased arable acreage in Eygpt (vague memories of 1/3 & 40%) and removing the annual flooding allowed double cropping on existing farmland.  Farmland, not prestige or electrical power, was, AFAIK, the motivation for the Aswan High Dam and all of the negative effects.

You missed one of, if not the most important negative.  The Nile delta fisheries were destroyed.

If Egypt thought that the negatives exceeded the positives, they could raise & lower Lake Nasser with the annual flood or just destroy the dam.

Again, vague memories of facts.

PS building a dam on the bet that Africa continues to have regular rains is a very long bet that global warming doesn't entirely change the picture.

The Amazon is facing 3 years of drought.  Estimates are at least 1/3rd of that is because of loss of green cover-- the water recycling mechanism is broken.

The problem I can see is that power is spotty but you want the NH3 plant to run 24/7.  This indicates that some kind of hydrogen storage is desirable.  Would it be feasible to use e.g. deep aquifers or spent gas wells as long-term storage for gaseous hydrogen?  Would the economics of the electrolysis be seriously affected by low capacity factors?
As long as we're dreaming of $100 billion worth of turbines we could just add some more with some H2 liquefiers.  Would just be cheaper to shut down some of the NH3 capacity though.
  How much water is consumed? Most of the Great Plains is in rather dry areas with aquifers that are already overpumped for agricultural uses.
  Also, does anyone know whether pure H20 is required for electrolis processes? Could excess wind energy also be used to osmoticially purify brines and polluted water in non-peak electrical useage periods?

This is a wonderful article, I only hope Vinod Khosla pays attention because it addresses his EROI problem with ethanol.

I think a bigger question is, "Does large scale, monocrop agriculture have a long term future so as to justify the cost?"  For a variety of reasons, including aquafir depletion, I am not convinced that the agricultural status quo can be maintained even out to 2050. Would the money be better spent transitioning production ag away from its current paradigm?

Still, an interesting essay.  A technically elegant idea.

This site is about peak oil, of course.  But quite likely our civilization is also at peak water, peak coal, not to mention peak soil (industrial monoculture has ruined much of world's farmland), and peak trash-- where are we going to put all that plastic crap we make out of oil and natural gas?
where are we going to put all that plastic crap we make out of oil and natural gas?

We're probably going to end up burning it for heat.

There are already people doing it.  Someone at PeakOil.com was bragging about how they were burning PVC pipe in their wood stove.

I hate to think about what kind of emissions that would generate...

ugh, it's an ugly picture - and what happens when 6 - 8 billion of us start doing the same thing?
I have often had the vision that as suburbs begin to shut down, people will see their neighbors' abandoned houses as a handy fuel source--vinyl siding and all.  The houses with fire places and wood stoves will be the last ones standing having devoured the others.
I live in a lovely older wooded area near DC and I can't help pondering the fate of the mature trees all around the area when the NG and grid go down.  Americans clear cut most of New England with 2 man saws before 1880.  The last dribbles of gasoline from the pumps may wind up in chainsaws rather than Priuses.  
-Matt, new e-bike rider, DC
It's certainly already the case that in some Midwestern Cities where derelictions are common (Mother Jones has a piece this month about mortgage scams in Cleveland, leading to abandonments), that houses are already being stripped for scrap aluminum siding and copper to ship to China (Buffalo houses were being broken into and this was being done).

I imagine those 'mcMansions' going the way of some of those neighbourhoods in Detroit: just the odd lonely house standing amidst deserted lots with rubble in them-- maybe with huge razor wire fences on the survivors (South Africa is a bit like this in places).  Homeless people sheltering in the ones that remain.

Some people in the society will always have access to fuel and transport.  They will cluster in protected zones or parts of cities.

Plastic is harder to recycle.  Burning it strikes me as the height of folly-- what if your kids get a whiff?

Of course they'll be cut down.

After D-Day, the Germans (a garrison of about 8,000) were dug in Jersey (British island off the French coast) until V-E Day.  The local population (about 20,000) nearly starved as all supplies were cut off.  Eventually a Red Cross Convoy was organised from England to provide some food to the locals.

Same thing happened in Holland from September 1944 to May 1945.  The Dutch had assisted the Allied paratroopers, and the German occupation authorities simply cut off all food and fuel transport, through one of the coldest winters of the Century.

If someone wasn't living in their house, the roof and furnishings were stripped for firewood, ditto the trees.

This is why up until modern times there were severe penalties for cutting down trees on private or common land: down to losing a hand, whipping or permanent scaring.  Primitive societies have always had social means to control deforestation.

Also, does anyone know whether pure H20 is required for electrolis processes?
That's something I'd like to know also. As I understand it, fresh water is needed for electrolysis. If so, how much would be needed to produce the hydrogen needed for the US consumption of fertilizer, would that seriously impact the fresh water problems and what impact will population growth, and the growth in biomass (needing fertilizer) for fuels have on the fresh water problem?

If salt water needs to be desalinated first, then the energy costs of that need to be factored in.

Tony

You can electrolyze sea water, you just get chlorine and oxygen instead of just oxygen.  Hard water scale would be a bigger problem.

Instead of electrolysis you could go with a thermal-based system.

Actually, you won't.  You'll get hydrogen (H2) and chlorine (Cl2).

Oxygen (as an OH- ion) combines with Na to form NaOH.  That's the basis of the chlor-alkali process.  But it uses a highly concentrated brine in the process.

I'm a little confused on exactly how your idea to generate nitrogen fertilizer would be implemented, apart from installing on-site wind power or microhydro.  Obviously some sort of reactor is needed, but could you detail this a bit more?  Are these commercially available in size(s) to match farm use requirements, etc.  Thanks!

Your very close to my idea.

The energy density of compressed are is still very low however. Once you have paid the cost of compression you just as well go ahead and liquefy the air and store liquid nitrogen. The liquid oxygen can be expanded and used to power more compression.

A side benefit is you will extract C02 which could be combined with H2 from electrolysis to produce organic products.

Also a very big win in dry environments is you can extract water vapor from the air in your expander's so it provides a source of water.

Finally you get all the air conditioning you would ever want.

For the liquefaction phase I've been looking into Vortex
tubes.

http://www.visi.com/~darus/hilsch/

Chaining several of these together can give you liquidification without moving parts. The energy from the hot side of the tube could be captured in a number of way's
say tying in Stirling engines

http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~khirata/

For my goal to eliminate moving parts.
Acoustic stirling engines are fascinating

http://www.lanl.gov/mst/engine/

Also of interest to replace complex compressors and turbines
is a Tesla Turbine
http://www.tfcbooks.com/articles/tdt7.htm

Combine this with a air bearing which I've not seen done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_bearing

And you have a very simple and very cheap turbine.
In the case of using liquid nitrogen for power it can be
made from a plastic or organic composite.

As long as your gas is under pressure and the may be relative to a vacuum using a combination of turbines Hirsch vortex tubes and Stirling engines allows you to extract most of the energy at very high efficiencies by switching between pressure and heat and fractionating the exhaust of each stage through a vortex tube. In fact you should get well over the 60% recovery of the best single effect Carnot engine since your using two different properties of the working gas and you have the trick of fractioning the exhaust via the vortex tubes.

Finally the energy recovery studies for liquid nitrogen done to date are bogus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_nitrogen_economy

They are expanding the liquid nitrogen before trying to extract work from it. Instead you need to inject the liquid nitrogen into your turbine along with a heat transport liquid either water/steam or ethylene glycol or other alcohol. The heat transfer liquid can be at ambient or you can use heat from partitioning a vortex tube to increase the temperature. In any case your actually driving the turbine with a aerosol of the expanded nitrogen and the heat transport liquid so you should get very good momentum transfer from the liquid droplets being blown across the blades.

That's why I'm interested in Tesla turbines in particular.
I've considered disks etched with some sort of pattern that interacts well with the aerosol causing a virtual liquid blade to form on the disk. If you have gone through a automatic car wash you now the effect of blowing a liquid with a high pressure stream its the same effect.

The traditional Tesla turbine works exactly in this manner but by getting the gas boundary layer to ripple. I just don't think anyone has ever tried them with and aerosol.

And last but not least its easy to create a vacumn with no
moving parst via a aspirator

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirator

And you can power vortext tubes by either pulling a vacumn on the exhaust side or applying pressure.

memel -

Re: The Tesla turbine

While Tesla was one of the most brilliant inventors who ever lived, many of his ideas were hopeless impractical.

I am familiar with the Tesla turbine. And from an unelated little project of my own (a working model of a Victorian Wimshurst electrostatic generator), I am also familiar with the enormous difficulty in getting closely spaced flat discs to all rotate precisely in the same plane.

There are some very good reasons why the Tesla turbine has never (to my knowledge) been commercialized since Tesla invented it over 100 years agao. It is one thing to produce thin closely space discs for a 10-inch diameter model, but quite something else again to do the same with say 5-ft
diameter discs for even a moderate size unit.

It's hard enough just making large thin discs that precise, but to then put them on a common shaft, precisely align them, and then expect them to stay in alignment, after being subjected to both the thermal stresses of high temperature steam and the mechanical stresses of high rotational speeds, is asking a bit much. (As I recall, these are the exact same problems Tesla himself ran into when trying to actually build his turbine.)

While the science behind the idea of the Tesla turbine is quite sound, the physical embodiment of the concept is highly problematical, with what appear to be insurmountable obstacles of a purely mechanical nature. Maybe someone will eventually work these out, but from what I've seen, the Tesla turbine is a technological deadend - a good example of something that is elegantly simple in concept but horrendously difficult in execution.  


Thats the trick its not high temperature done correctly its running at room temperature or in reality a little lower. The power is provided from a mix of say methanol and gassified liquid nitrogen basically compressed air. Like I said you can make most of it out of plastic. The central shaft would probably have to be carbon fiber.

And you don't need huge ones many small ones are fine.
I don't see scaling providing a huge benifit since your just driving electrical generators and they don't have scaling effects. 10 small generators are bascially as efficient as one large generator.

Finally agian as far as I know no one has worked with a tesla turbine powered by a aerosol. The addition fo the liquid for translation of energy to the disks could change the dynamics.

I found a design made from CD's which should work quite well for this application. What are normally considerd toy turbines are fine for this use. Methanol or ethlyene glycol
is co injected with the liquid nitrogen to heat it past its boiling point.

Even that is just a super simple injector.

Similar to this

http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.rivett/imic/inject.htm

But you only need the double cone on the left.
The innercone is liquid nitrogen the outer is your heating fluid which could be a gass but you get better heat transfer atomizing a liquid.

The trick is getting the liquid nitrogen efficiently in the first place normal designs waste tons of energy. Even scavanging the heat of a traditional compressor to power a stirling engine to generate eletricity to run the compressor would vastly increase the efficiency.

Obviously I want bettern then that by moving to sytstem with almost no moving parts.

Even check valves might be eleminated using Teslas Vavle
http://www.mne.psu.edu/me415/fall04/APC2/

The only thing different from what Tesla did is I' working with liquid nitrogen and I have plastic :)
And of course air bearings which were invented later.
You can also use the bearing out of a cd player they work
for demos but a small air bearing is perfect for this application.

I even looked int electrostatic generators to remove the expense of the generator. Doing electro chemistry via ion bombardment is intresting by sending accelerated electrons into say a frozen water target. Yeah this is in left field
but I've always wondered if you could not get efficient conversion via ion bombardment as apposed to traditional electric chemistry. The emitter electrodes could be very small. The reason I think it might work for H20 is that the hydrogen will asorb most of the kinetic energy and move away from the reaction site quickly so it won't simply recombine
producing heat its flying off to react with other water molecules generally extracting another hydrogen atom.
Less wacko is the production of Hydrogen Peroxide via
electric discharge in water vapor.

In anycase the main product is probably Hydrogen Peroxide
well what can you do with that

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Hydrogen_Peroxide_as_Fuel

With a touch of silver catalyis whe have high temperature steam.

If you added in excess C02 into the stream you get a shot at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_gas_shift_reaction

And yes I know there is too much C02 but it reacts with hydrogen to make methane. You probably need to inject excess
hydrogen stripped from some of the product or via electrolysis to get the reaction right. But who knows maybe there is a catalyst that would select for the reduced carbon prodcut even with all this 02 floating around.

The point is you can via electrostic generators create a high voltage spark from there you can make Hydrogen Peroxides and nitrogen peroxides the dissasociation of these peroxides can be used to drive eventual reduction reactions.
Generally via steam reforming.
But in acid solutions Hydrogen peroxide can act as a reducing agent.
2MnO4- + 5H2O2 + 6H+ → 2Mn++ + 5O2 + 8H2O

http://www.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/perox.htm

or

2 Fe3+ + H2O2 + 2 OH− → 2 Fe2+ + 2 H2O + O

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide#Redox_reactions

I'm assuming once you have Fe2+ then you can  probably
eventaually get to hydrogen or use it in a battery.

The reason for this is electrostatic generators can be made
from cheap plastic while a magnetic based generator is expensive hydrogen peroxide and nitrogen oxides are about the only reactive products that can easily be made via
high voltage discharge to my knowledge.

Mike

memmel -

A mini Tesla turbine made out of old CDs:  I love it! (That's a far more creative use of an old CD than using a sharpened CD to carve up a dead dog, as has been envisioned by some of the doomers around here.)

Still, I think you will find that trying get those CDs all aligned on the same shaft with no more than a few milimeters of space between each of them is not as easy as it looks.  Try it.

Still, I like your creative spirit, and if only small percentage of your ideas work out, you will be doing well. Keep them coming!


Thank you.

But I think you also missed one of the critical parts of the post unless you have dug deeply into the way the Tesla turbine works I could understand missing the importance.
I'm not suggesting running the turbine with a gas but with a gas fluid mixture. The millimeter requirements are from the boundary effects for adhesion of a gas. A fluid on the other hand has far larger adhesion dimensions for the boundary layer.

The liquid boundary layer is far larger then that of a gas.
But even that's not the important part in this case since we are dealing with small droplets of fluid adhering to the disk
its the size of the droplets that influence the momentum transfer.

For 100 plus years it looks like no one considered running a
Tesla turbine with a atomized spray since everyone assumed they would run it via combustion.

Now whats even more interesting since they did not consider this it also looks like they never considered running any turbine against a vacuum.

So instead of passing combustion products or steam through your turbine and all the problems you have with that you use
simple steam or gas aspirators to draw a vacuum on the back side of the turbine pulling the cool working gas through the
turbine instead of hot working gas.

Viola cheap low temperature turbine running at room temperature. For fast rates this is a variant of a pulse
engine and a simple tube suffices its basically a central
tube with ejector vents along its length and pulse jets
or steam or combustion gasses used to evacuate the tube.
The incoming air can easily get hypersonic if you can
evacuate fast enough since it would the be expanding against
a constant vacuum. The point is the hot gases are contained
in simple tubes that could be ceramic and basically as
hot as you want.

___
 Combustion or flowing gas along here
_
_/_____

Vacuum here
_
_____

Whats funny is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_engine#Vacuum_engines

The very first steam engine almost got it right they
just needed to pull the vacuum outside of the engine and
allow the ambient air to do the work.

So whats the point ?
I could care less about all the mega-project approaches ethanol, expensive windmills, solar cells etc etc. I'm not saying they won't provide energy some energy for the wealthy nations and they have a place but your going to have 5.5 billion pissed of poor people to deal with. Unless we come up with energy generation solutions that can be made from cheap materials at about the same cost as plastic toys today
we don't have a future.

Whats Spain going to do when the immigration pressure from Africa becomes a flood same with the US/Mexico ?

We can set here with our million dollar wind turbines and ethanol plants and kill everyone that tries to enter and ignore that they will cut every single tree down in their own country devastating the planet. Once they get desperate the devastation will be as bad as any natural disaster that has ever occurred on this planet. Think about it.

Or we can think think think and put together simple super cheap energy collection systems to distribute to alleviate
the effects of the loss of oil.

A lot of people have not figured out that unless we save most of us we save nothing. 5.5 billion people are not going to set around and quietly die while we drive our SUV's on subsidized ethanol.

So despite a lot of crap I seem to get from people that really really don't get it I am working on the super cheap solution and will continue to post my ideas in hopes someone can pick them up and save our asses. If we let the current western engineering mentality that got us into this mess lead then we are dead. I think a lot of people sitting on there asses waiting for a technical solution don't realize they are waiting for the same people that willfully screwed up the world to fix the problem.

A small example but once you start looking its scary.
Did the people that made freon stop for one second and
pressure their bosses to halt work until the effects of this
none destructible gas could be determined on the environment ? I assure you they considered it. These are the  same people your trusting with your life going forward.

And yes a lot of  engineers and scientists are just as responsible and greedy as the politicians, wake up people.


Found it yes you can have a Fe+2/Fe+3 battery.

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JESOAN000128000001000018000 001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes

I figured.

Or rust

http://members.aol.com/logan20/voltaic.html

In any case simple electrostatic generators are used
to generate hydrogen peroxide which is then used as a reducing agent for Fe+3 ->Fe+2

So you can now power a batter or really a fuel cell since you chemically reduced the iron.

By using chemical transfroms you get from high voltage to
a low voltage battery usefule for further reactions such
as electrolysis of water.
Since the electrodes for discharge can be made from carbon
no metal is involved except for the iron and a touch of silver for the catalytic decomposition of hydrogen peroxide.

Once you have hydrogen from your Fe battery you can mix it
with Hydrogen Peroxide and CO2 and it will certianly push the reaction towards Methanol synthesis I noted I said the WSR I mean I want the RWSR i.e go in reverse towards carbon monoxide. Anyway once you get hydrogen you can do anything.


Finally this suggests that simple electric discharge in a
C02/H20 atmosphere can directly produce peroxide and other compounds

http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=3589&posts=7

Sorry for all the posts :)