Key Questions on Energy Options
Posted by Robert Rapier on January 24, 2007 - 12:00pm
Topic: Environment/Sustainability
Tags: biodiesel, biofuel, cellulosic ethanol, conservation, ethanol, gasoline, sustainability [list all tags]
In my opinion, they are:
1. Is the energy source sustainable?
2. What are the potential negative externalities of producing/using this energy source?
3. What is the EROEI?
4. Is it affordable?
5. Are there better alternatives?
6. Are there other special considerations?
7. In summary, are the advantages of the source large enough to justify any negative consequences?
For the purposes of this essay, I want to focus on energy sources for transportation. Let’s look at some options, and get a better handle on why we have opted for the energy sources we presently use. I will not cover all of the options. In fact, nuclear, which is likely to play a bigger part in the future, is not discussed simply because I don't know enough about it.
A few comments here, as some of the questions warrant additional comment. With respect to sustainability, just because a fuel is not sustainable does not immediately disqualify it from consideration. It just means that there must eventually be something else to take its place. This could even be another unsustainable option, but these unsustainable options are unsustainable for a reason. It would be preferable to move to something sustainable.
Likewise on the negative externalities. There are negative externalities that we can tolerate, and some we can’t, but most fall in between. Is increased pollution a tolerable negative externality? It obviously depends on the level and type of pollution. If the pollution level for a relatively benign substance goes from undetectable to barely detectable, that is probably an externality that we can live with. Others aren’t so clear cut, but all need to be weighed against the perceived benefits.
The question of affordability is a really loaded question, as this will mean different things to different people. Does affordability mean that I can commute in a Hummer 40 miles one way to work with minimal economic impact? Or does it mean that I can continue to drive my subcompact a few miles per week while still being able to afford food? These are issues that we can discuss.
Liquid Fossil Fuels
1. Clearly not sustainable.
2. The potential negative externalities are many. Among them are Global Warming, increased pollution, using our military to keep supply options open, and potentially enabling the earth to be populated beyond its carrying capacity.
3. The energy return on fossil fuels is quite high. Despite publications that have suggested that the energy return on fossil fuels is less than 1.0, the actual energy return (from oil in the ground to fuel in the tank) is in the range of 6.0 – 7.0. That is, for 1 BTU of energy expended, at least 6 BTUs of fossil fuel can be extracted from the ground and processed into liquid fuels for a net of 5 BTUs.
4. Yes, this is our most “affordable” energy option with respect to the price we pay at the pump.
5. It depends on the definition of “better.” If better means a cheap option that supplies the U.S. with the current level of energy consumption, then “No.” But I would define better such that the source is sustainable and negative externalities are minimized. In that case, there are better alternatives, which will be covered.
6. One special consideration here is the relying on fossil fuels puts our energy security squarely in the hands of the Middle East, an intolerable situation in my opinion.
7. No.
I did not break out GTL and CTL via Fischer-Tropsch separately, although perhaps I should have. I have voiced my concerns about those in a previous essay - XTL: Promise and Peril.
Grain Ethanol
1. Not sustainable.
2. Again, many potential negative externalities. Among them are loss of topsoil, increased pollution from pesticide and herbicide runoff, aquifer depletion, and an increase in food prices due to increased grain demand (a positive externality to those who farm).
3. The energy return on grain ethanol is very low. Published studies put this number at around 1.3, but the return for fossil fuels in and ethanol out averages less than 1.1. Animal feed byproduct that is given a BTU value pushes the EROEI up to 1.3. Therefore, for 1 BTU of energy expended, less than 1.1 BTUs of ethanol can be produced, along with an additional 0.2 BTUs of animal feed. The net is then 0.3 BTUs with the byproduct credit, or about 1/17th of the fossil fuel net.
4. It is affordable, due to direct subsidies. But based on the current spot price of ethanol, it is slightly over twice the cost of regular unleaded gasoline on a BTU equivalent basis.
5. Yes. Even staying within the ethanol category, there are better choices.
6. The business of grain ethanol has revitalized many rural communities, and has made farming much more profitable. However, it also encourages farmers to preferentially plant corn instead of less environmentally harmful crops. The fossil fuel inputs into ethanol production are also largely non-liquid (natural gas and coal). In the case of natural gas, this makes a fine transportation fuel. But some ethanol supporters correctly point out that we have lots of coal, and we could use that as our primary energy source for ethanol production. Just don't tell me it's renewable in that case!
7. No.
Grain ethanol is not sustainable for primarily 2 reasons. First, it involves a loss of topsoil, and in many areas a depletion of fossil aquifers. The amount of topsoil loss has been subject to much debate, but it will vary based on many factors. Some areas are certainly more sustainable than others. The other concern is the high degree of embedded (and unsustainable) fossil fuels required for grain ethanol production. This means that in addition to the direct negative externalities, you can add secondary negative externalities caused by the usage of the fossil fuels.
The pollution issue, in my opinion, is quite serious but is typically ignored by ethanol boosters. This issue was discussed last year in an article in CorpWatch. After discussing the “carbon monoxide, methanol, toluene, and volatile organic compounds” emitted by ethanol plants, the article addressed the issue of pollution caused by corn farming:
Modern corn hybrids require more nitrogen fertilizer, herbicides, and insecticides than any other crop, while causing the most extensive erosion of top soil. Pesticide and fertilizer runoff from the vast expanses of corn in the U.S. prairies bleed into groundwater and rivers as far as the Gulf of Mexico.In my opinion, these are negative externalities just as serious as those posed by fossil fuel usage. Yet this is the alternative that we are scaling up just as fast as we possibly can. The real problem is that the negative externalities don't directly and immediately impact most people's lives, so they pay no heed to them. Sure, increased ethanol production might cause atrazine levels in drinking wells to increase, but it's in someone else's water. "It's not my problem if it's not in my water" is the attitude of most people. But I doubt anyone personally affected by this is going to consider it an acceptable externality.The nitrogen runoff flowing into the Mississippi River has fostered a vast bloom of dead algae in the Gulf that starves fish and other aquatic life of oxygen.
To understand the hidden costs of corn-based ethanol requires factoring in "the huge, monstrous costs of cleaning up polluted water in the Mississippi River drainage basin and also trying to remedy the negative effects of poisoning the Gulf of Mexico," says Tad Patzek of the University of California's Civil and Environmental Engineering department.
"These are not abstract environmental effects," Patzek asserts, "these are effects that impact the drinking water all over the Corn Belt, that impact also the poison that people ingest when they eat their food, from the various pesticides and herbicides." Corn farming substantially tops all crops in total application of pesticides, according to the US Department of Agriculture, and is the crop most likely to leach pesticides into drinking water.
While banned by the European Union, atrazine is the most heavily used herbicide in the United States - primarily applied to cornfields - and the EPA rates it as the second most common pesticide in drinking wells. The EPA has set maximum safe levels of atrazine in drinking water at 3 parts per billion, but scientists with the U.S. Geological Survey have found up to 224 parts per billion in Midwestern streams and 2,300 parts per billion in Corn Belt irrigation reservoirs.
Sugarcane Ethanol
1. Sustainable, for reasons I outlined in this article.
2. Few potential negative externalities to my knowledge. I have heard mention that expanded sugarcane production will be at the expense of rain forest, but the sugarcane plantations in Brazil are not near the rain forests. I do not know if rainforests in other tropical countries may be put in danger by expanded sugarcane production.
3. The energy return on sugarcane ethanol appears to be in the 8/1 range, which would make it better than gasoline. More on that below.
4. It is affordable, but in the U.S. we punish Brazilian ethanol with a $0.54/gallon tariff to protect our unsustainable corn ethanol production.
5. For a liquid fuel that will fit in the current transportation infrastructure, I don’t think sugarcane ethanol can be beaten with existing technology. But it can't provide our current level of energy usage.
6. The industry can provide an economic boost to tropical countries, where it is sorely needed.
7. In my opinion, the advantages of sugarcane ethanol justify the costs, provided habitat is not being destroyed to grow more sugarcane.
I find it shameful that the U.S. subsidizes an unsustainable and polluting industry like grain ethanol, and punishes a sustainable industry like sugarcane ethanol. Yet even with those tariffs in place, Brazil can still ship their ethanol to the U.S. and compete with homegrown corn ethanol prices.
The energy return on sugarcane ethanol as it has been calculated does appear to be in the 8/1 range, which would make it better than gasoline. On the face of it, this seems absurd. Nature has already done the major processing for fossil fuels, and turned ancient plant material into long-chain, energy dense compounds. In the case of sugarcane ethanol, a lot of energy inputs are required, especially for purifying the ethanol, but those inputs are being satisfied by burning the sugarcane ethanol residues to produce process heat. Therefore, they are not being counted against the energy output.
However, gasoline accounting is not done in this manner. When oil is refined to liquid fuels, a lot of fuel gas is produced. That fuel gas tends to be burned in the refinery to produce process heat, but I have still charged that against the energy balance I calculated above. If I had done the energy accounting as is done with sugarcane ethanol, one could state that the energy return of gasoline is actually only the initial energy required to get the oil out of the ground, which averages about 17/1 worldwide. The refining step would get a free pass, since the energy in the oil is ultimately used to refine the oil. So no, the energy balance of sugarcane ethanol is not in fact better than that for gasoline.
Despite that, I believe sugarcane ethanol is a good option for mitigating a portion of our fossil fuel usage because it is renewable, and it lacks the negative externalities of fossil fuels. However, our present usage is much too great to be offset with sugarcane ethanol alone.
Cellulosic Ethanol
1. Sustainable.
2. Few potential negative externalities depending on the biomass source.
3. Unknown.
4. Presently, despite frequently optimistic claims, it costs significantly more to produce cellulosic ethanol than to produce corn ethanol.
5. Yes.
6. There are numerous sources of biomass that could be used to produce cellulosic ethanol.
7. Time will tell, but cellulosic ethanol did not just come onto the scene. Researchers have been trying to commercialize it for many years without much success. It will require several breakthroughs, none of which are certain to occur, before cellulosic ethanol contributes to our energy requirements.
Due to the lack of commercial cellulosic ethanol plants, the energy return is largely unknown. On the one hand, fossil fuel inputs for growing the biomass will likely be much lower than for corn. However, the ethanol concentration yielded from a cellulosic ethanol process tends to be significantly lower than the concentration obtained in a conventional ethanol production. A presentation at last year's St. Louis Renewable Energy Conference from Keith Collins, Chief Economist at the USDA, showed that corn ethanol yields 14-20% ethanol, while cellulosic is a paltry 4%. That means a lot more energy for purification.
In addition, more processing steps are required. I have seen EROEI estimates for cellulosic ethanol that range from less than 1 to greater than 8. Based on the factors mentioned here, the true estimate is likely to be closer to 1. But the truth is we just won't know until some commercial facilities are up and running.
I don't discount that technical improvements will occur with cellulosic ethanol. But many people who don't understand the nature of the challenges (or who have a vested interest not to) have presumed technical breakthroughs of a practically magical nature. If I announced that we would be making regular trips to Mars within 1o years, most people would reject this because they have some understanding of both the technical difficulty involved, and they understand that the costs would be enormous. Yet those same people may have no problem believing that we are going to transition our fossil fuel infrastructure to a cellulosic ethanol infrastructure. Yet the technical challenges involved are of the magnitude of ferrying us all back and forth to Mars.
Biodiesel
1. It depends on the source.
2. Biodiesel in general suffers from far fewer negative externalities than most biofuels, but palm oil gets mixed reviews. On the one hand, it is a tropical crop like sugarcane ethanol, and the EROEI appears to be very good. On the other, rainforest is being destroyed to grow new palm oil plantations.
3. By most accounts, the EROEI is greater than 3, which is respectable for a biofuel.
4. It is more expensive than conventional diesel. Current subsidies make it affordable.
5. Biodiesel can be a sustainable contributor toward energy security.
6. Diesel engines are much more efficient than gasoline engines, which reduces the overall fuel requirement.
7. Again, it depends on the source. If we are going to chop down rainforest to plant palm oil plantations, then no. If we are going to use waste oils and existing high oil-yielding crops (grown sustainably), then yes.
I think the U.S. made a mistake by not favoring the diesel engine over the gasoline engine as has been done in many other countries. Diesels are much more efficient than gasoline engines, so a diesel fleet would stretch the fuel supply.
Biodiesel can be produced sustainably, but caution is warranted. We first need to make sure that absolutely all of the waste vegetable oil in the country gets collected and turned into biodiesel. But even growing crops for biodiesel may be done sustainably. Biodiesel derived from soybeans, while expensive to produce, comes at a much lower environmental price and a much better EROEI than corn ethanol. Then there is the added benefit of 1). A higher BTU value per gallon; and 2). The higher efficiency of the diesel engine. These factors combined mean that we would need less than half the biodiesel to drive the same amount of miles we could if using ethanol.
At this stage, I would put algal biodiesel in the same category as cellulosic ethanol: Technically feasible, sustainable, but it may not be commercially feasible. Also as in the case of cellulosic ethanol, there is much hype but much of it is without merit at this time. Magical technical breakthroughs are again being presumed as a given by many people. I have even been guilty of this to some extent.
Biomass Gasification
1. Sustainable.
2. Care has to be taken with respect to the source used for gasification. There are also potential air quality issues from a large-scale gasification program.
3. I have not seen an EROEI calculation, but I expect it to be much higher than for cellulosic ethanol. I would estimate an EROEI in the 6-10 range (based on the method I use for calculating a fossil fuel EROEI).
4. Currently capital costs are too high to enable biomass gasification to compete.
5. Biomass gasification has a chance to be a highly sustainable contributor toward our energy demands.
6. Biomass gasification could be used either to produce electricity (e.g., use biomass instead of coal in a power plant application) or as the first step in a liquid-fuels program. More below.
7. Yes.
I have described what I believe are the advantages of biomass gasification over cellulosic ethanol previously in Cellulosic Ethanol vs. Biomass Gasification. Briefly, cellulosic ethanol converts a small portion of the available biomass. Gasification converts all of it into syngas, which can then be used to make a wide variety of chemicals, including methanol, ethanol, or diesel.
The main problem with implementing a large scale biomass gasification is that it is presently just too expensive. The capital costs associated with processing the biomass are very high. Current estimates, which I documented in the afore-mentioned article, put the cost of a biomass gasification plant at about 7 times the per barrel cost of a conventional oil refinery or grain ethanol plant, and double the costs of a coal-to-liquids plant. At some point we may be willing to pay these costs for our fuel, but it won't be until other options are largely exhausted.
Wind and Solar
1. Sustainable.
2. Few potential negative externalities to my knowledge. Wind turbines have been implicated in the deaths of some bats and birds, and there may be some increased pollution as a result of solar panel manufacture.
3. The energy returns have been calculated in a number of different ways, but most sources show an energy balance more favorable than that of most liquid fuels.
4. Wind-generated electricity is affordable, but solar is still out of reach for the average person.
5. For electricity generation, I think these are the best, most sustainable options.
6. There are a number of special considerations for this option. First, wide-spread electric transport – an absolute must in my opinion - is not yet a reality. Battery technology still doesn’t quite have the cost/benefit ratio that many consumers desire. Also, if the U.S. moves toward more electric transportation a lot of infrastructure will need to be upgraded. There are also currently issues with a shortage of silicon for making solar cells, which is keeping prices elevated. Finally, there is the issue of intermittency for both of these sources. Improvements in storage technology (such as compressed air energy storage) are needed.
7. I believe that we need to move toward transportation electrification, which in my opinion would make wind and solar power more attractive options than any of the liquid fuel options (with the possible exceptions of sugarcane ethanol and waste-derived biodiesel).
The potential advantages of a solar and wind-powered transport system are so great that our current infatuation with grain ethanol is a tremendous misallocation of resources. My vision for the future would involve some solar panels on the vast majority of houses around the world providing the electricity to run our small PHEVs. I truly believe this is the model that we will eventually implement.
Conservation
This essay wouldn't be complete without a discussion on conservation. Consider that we could save more fuel, while stretching our budgets, by choosing to embrace conservation. If we chose more fuel-efficient cars, slowed down, took fewer trips, and walked or rode a bike instead of driving, just think about the fuel we could save. We would immediately reduce our dependence on the Middle East, because we just wouldn't need as much oil. We would increase the chance that some combination of alternatives could supply a level of energy that would allow us to maintain a decent standard of living.
Yet in this rush to alternatives, conservation is typically given just a bit of lip service. Our politicians will say "Ethanol, ethanol, ethanol, and yeah, we should conserve." But money is not being thrown at conservation. Imagine if instead of spending over $2 billion a year in direct ethanol subsidies, we directed that money into conservation measures. We could offer everyone in the country direct tax breaks for purchasing fuel efficient vehicles. To me, such a policy would make a much greater contribution toward our energy independence than the policies we currently have in place. I believe we have to demand that our political leaders put more emphasis on conservation as a piece of our energy puzzle.
And don't give me Jevon's Paradox. If as a result of increased conservation in the U.S., China happens to consume the energy we saved, that's ultimately too bad for China. We will have still reduced our energy dependence and taken a step toward sustainability. When the full force of Peak Oil hits, those who have thrown out Jevon's Paradox as a reason not to conserve will finally understand the foolishness of such reasoning. What is going to matter is that we have a small energy footprint and are as sustainable as we can possibly be. Throwing out Jevon's Paradox as an argument that conservation is ultimately futile will never allow us to prepare for the effects of oil depletion on society.
When we are serious about attacking our energy dependence, we will go after the demand side. I believe that a revenue neutral gas tax would seriously cut into our demand over time. This is, of course, the main reason for Europe's success in maintaining a much lower level of energy usage. Such an approach works, and Europeans enjoy a nice standard of living. Perhaps we will decide to take this proven approach for reducing consumption before declining oil production forces higher prices on us before we have time to prepare.



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Thanks Robert!
This is a great summary that is very much needed!
In case of grain ethanol, you may also consider the potential economic consequences of the increase of the use of corn ethanol as the grain production per capita is peaking at the world level:
Also, global warming may increase the occurrence of severe weather that may impact corn production in the future (e.g. severe droughts).
And there are the social ramifications of the increase in corn prices. Energy Bulletin had a great summary recently on the effects in Mexico:
http://www.energybulletin.net/24986.html
Couple of snippets:
"High corn prices are wreaking havoc on Mexico's inflation rate and forcing shoppers to pay more for eggs, milk and tortillas. But they're a godsend to farmers such as Victor Manuel Amador Luna."
"Facing public outrage over the soaring price of tortillas, President Felipe Calderón abandoned his free-trade principles on Thursday and forced producers to sign an agreement fixing prices for corn products."
A simple law of ecology is that it is impossible to do only one thing. What are the feedback loops between the inability to politically tell people that curtailment of demand is necessary, the short-sighted investments in an ethanol production system with no future, rising commodity prices and food insecurity in Mexico, political and economic stability in our neighboring country, further immigration pressures, the US' inability to maintain, let alone expand its own decaying public infrastructure, the high expectations of a generally clueless and delusional populace, and the continued failure of institutions to meet those expectations?
And true to form, Mexico screwed it up. The corn producers will just send all their corn to the US and make loads of money and abandon the local tortilla market. Now instead of having expensive tortillas, they will have none at all. This situation can be blamed on one entity: the Mexican government. Of course, people will blame everyone else--the US, George Bush, Drivers, capitalism etc.
I expect the corn will go where it fetches the most money. If American drivers are willing to pay more than the average Mexican peasant is willing (or able) to pay, then it will come Norte. No bureaucratic bungling necessary.
Of course, there are things that we can do to mitigate the consequences:
Have I forgotten anything???
Yes, the obvious thing: the Mexicans can grow more corn and be a part of the bonanza. This will lower the price of corn and then Juan and Maria can afford their tortillas again. Bonus points if Juan and Maria invest in corn or ethanol-related companies.
Actually, the Pseudo-Free Market comes to mind as a culprit here.
Is the market not designed to make the rich even more rich, and the poor even poorer?
Surely the market is contrived and it is contrived often to benefit some people at the expense of others.
Economist John Gray's work comes to mind as a good balance to the "Free Market" agit prop we are spoon fed so often.
Just a thought.
Graphs like this can be very misleading. Why would the world hold LARGE stocks of grain? You can argue food security, but no one is willing to pay for that security. Over the last 10 years, grain prices in the US and therefore the world have been quite low. So there has been a STRONG incentive to not produce grain, or do something with the grain produced. See the rapid rise in the livestock industry... If we looked at a graph of "calories available" I think it would look quite different.
If you notice the last time world stocks were below 60 days (early 1970's), we saw a dramatic rise in prices (from $1 bushel/corn to $3 bushel) that lasted until the ag economy collapse in the mid 80's. What did this price rise do -- dramatically increased grain production.
The last 10 years of low (sub $2) prices have caused a fall in grain production -- where did it go? see the increase in oilseed production for example.. What will $4 corn do -- increase production no doubt. Simple economics.
Grain for food vs. Grain for energy is worthy of an entirely different post...
BINGO!
Having a very large grain, etc to liquid fuel industry is essentially the same as having a large spare production for food use. In case of emergency drive less and food is available.
Not really. That grains curve is all grains, not just corn. includes wheat, rice, barley, etc. You can draw separate curves for the individual consumption characteristics of the various grains.
Second, not all corn grown for ethanol (or just plain grown) is for human consumption. A very significant portion of the corn produced is for corn meal for animal production.
Can humans consume it? Maybe. Maybe not.
"Can humans consume it? Maybe.Maybe not."
I think you are very misinformed or just plain don't understand.
What grain is specifically grown then for ethanol?
You never heard of yellow corn meal?
Do you think they intentionally seperate the various types of corn at the dump station? White ..yes. Non-GMO vs GMO yes but not so that some doesn't get mixed in with the others.
Can humans consume it? Consume what? #3 yellow dent corn? #3 yellow dent corn?
We just dump the harvest in the bins and pits. They classify it and sell you sell it either spot or contract. Some may go one way if a buyer purchases and specifies #3 yellow dent or flint or what ever.
As you are dumping your load you may also be dumping on top of part of the other guys load in front of you.
I think we have little idea of what we are or are not consuming.
I grind up #2 yellow dent for my own cornmeal. I grind up my white if I want white. All is edible. Hybrid is hybrid. Non hybrid doesn't get classified as far as I know. I have never been asked that question by the pit crew.
You might want to call some companies who have grain operations and ask but I believe they will not tell you or obfuscate. ADM is one. CGB is another. There are more.
If you wish to make statements that can stand then you must state that its your experience or give a source. Otherwise you lead others astray.
I don't all the answers but I can find most out but what I stated is my opinion and based on harvesting and hauling to market and general knowledge.
airdale
The state of NC Department of Agriculture certainly makes this distinction, if I understood what my ex told me several years ago at the NC State Fair.
I was unaware, until about 4 years ago, that the NCDA made such a distinction and yet at one of the NCDA displays was this segregation according to whether the corn was designated for animal consumption versus human consumption.
Maybe NCDA is unique amongst states. I can ask next week when I have lunch with my ex.
Any feed that pigs can grow on commercially is good enough for keeping humans from starving. Tasty and legal are stricter requirements. Sometimes pigs get the better feed. A pig food additive made from treated oats to replace antibiotics as a stomache stabilizer is now sold as health food with a HUGE markup.
I would really like to see the work of the site www.eroei.com expanded. I also would like to know who is behind the site?
For just one product, like biodiesel, there's the EROEI for algae, canola oil and palm oil inputs, among other factors. So not only do we need to consider each fuel type, but how it is produced. It is extremely complex and who can we trust to do the analyses?
Right now, it seems like people are following fads related to PR industry work.
Hey, just a couple of years ago wasn't the hydrogen economy the solution to our addiction to oil?
We also need better breakdowns of the %'s of each input type when looking at EROEI for these alternative sources, otherwise it will be much harder to make objective decisions regarding which ones are feasible and sustainable long-term. We also need to know if the input sources can be substituted with ease when price/or accessibility issues come into play.
The overall EROEI, while important, is severely mis-understood by many debating peak oil. The important feature from a purely consumption perspective is that a non-usable form of energy can be converted into a form that is usable. Even forms of energy that are energy negative make sense in some cases. Luckily the folks arguing EROEI aren't running the country, otherwise we would have given up on making electricity a long time ago.
"Luckily the folks arguing EROEI aren't running the country, otherwise we would have given up on making electricity a long time ago."
Hmm, curious comment. Some of my thoughts.
Many folks who talk about EROEI also talk about energy quality. Electricity is a very high quality energy product. It is clean at the source of use, permitting the possible concentration of pollution controlling devices at sites of generation. It can be transmitted over long distances.
Though energy quality is often given as distinct from EROEI, it doesn't have to be. In a detailed EROEI analysis could incorporate some of these quality issues by looking at the costs (energy and material) of pollution control and distribution components of an energy system, for example. As environmental externalities are incorporated, perhaps electricity looks good?
I don't know the answer, and it likely depends upon application and local conditions, but my review of EROEI gives me the impression that it can take these factors into account. Perhaps those more experienced with the method could set me straight if I am wrong about this.
I think you touched on some good points.
How clean electricity is however, is dependent upon where you live. In Texas we have some wind and hydro which is clean, but most is generated from natural gas and coal. Pollution controlling devices that you mention might be feasible, although expensive, but if I remember correctly TXU is scrambling to build a host of coal burning plants before polution mandates can be handed down. I find it very unlikely when they are mandated, that the plants already in service won't be grandfathered out of inclusion.
When it comes down to it, we will continue to transform coal and natural gas into electricity and liquid fuel because that is what the consumer demands. This is why I'm arguing that the input side of EROEI is more important than the overall EROEI.
TXU is ramming the carbon tax down the throat of their customers like other utilities did with the promise of "cheap nuclear" which ended up costing billions. If any utility thinks there will be no carbon taxed down the road for them, they must be out of their minds. Either that or we are seeing just another episode of "short term stock return before long term planning". There is nothing new here.
"When it comes down to it, we will continue to transform coal and natural gas into electricity and liquid fuel because that is what the consumer demands."
That is hardly "what the customer demands". The customer simple demands energy. They don't care about how you make it. But the customer, through different channels, also demands that all production has to be ecologically reasonably clean. This is why we have the EPA and any number of laws against the release of toxic by-products. Now, what is called a toxic by-product is a matter of time and public insight. In the 19th century mercury was, despite being just as toxic as today, handled without care. People died. The law changed. Mercury is gone. Some products have become more expensive because of that. The same is happening today with carbon. Carbon and its toxic by-product CO2 will be put on the same list mercury is on shortly. And by shortly I mean it will happen on an industrial timescale short compared to a 40 or 50 year power plant amortization cycle. Some utilities have already made that determination. Others, especially those managed by morons, are a bit short of that insight. Their customers will have to pay for that.
"When it comes down to it, we will continue to transform coal and natural gas into electricity and liquid fuel because that is what the consumer demands."
That is hardly "what the customer demands". The customer simple demands energy.
Where do you live? Come to Austin and try to sell bags of coal to people filling their SUV's up at the gas station and see if it matters. Our massive infrastructure to deliver energy for transport on both the consumer and producer side is set up for liquid fuels and you if you think this is going to change anytime in the near future you live in a fantasy land.
"Our massive infrastructure to deliver energy for transport on both the consumer and producer side is set up for liquid fuels and you if you think this is going to change anytime in the near future you live in a fantasy land."
I happen to have a little bit of an insight into how industries change. Your answer is very similar to the prognosis that by the year 2000 the streets of London would be covered to a thickness of ten feet in horse manure because of the increase of horses carriages at the end of the 19th century. Of course, nothing like that happened. One technology, the horse, got simply replaced by another technology, the horse power, in 20 year's time.
A very similar thing is going on today: we are at the brink of replacing liquid transportation fuels, one way or another. The Prius is an early bird that catches the worm, the plug-in hybrids of the next decade will be the next step towards using less liquids and in parallel, the liquid fueled cars will use less and less of that stuff until we will either phase them out completely or our liquid fuel sources will change over (to something a little better than corn ethanol). In either case, the customers do not really care. Not many people still reminesce for the horse carriage in London. They prefer to take the tube or ride the bus.
As for the term "near future". To me 30, 40 and 50 years are "near future" (how long did electrification take?) and the initial events are already happening. Ten years down the road "conservation" and "carbon tax" will be as common a word as "gas tax" and "demand", even in the US.
Looking at the Austin utilities web pages it looks like they would like you guys to conserve energy, after all, they even give a $550 bonus and low-interest loans for home improvements and solar energy! And they operate a wind farm and a landfil methane plant. How funny... I thought Texas was different from California. But maybe it is... it has even better solar resources.
:-)
Austin is a little more progressive than most cities.
From your original comment, it sounded like you were talking about the present, and or the near future. If you're referring to the near future as in 30+ years a way, I can buy into that.... and actually happen to agree with that for the most part. Once the trend of substitutions begin, it will most likely accelerate as more expensive fossil fuels make substitutions not only economically viable, but competively advantaged. Although I've seen this trend begin to appear for GTL, CTL, ethanol, etc - I've yet to see this with electric. The plug-in technology you mentioned sounds promissing, but until the price of these vehicles comes down, or liquid fuel increases in price where they make sense economically - I would wait until calling this inevitable.
I think the nearterm future is getting somewhat into focus right now. The key events will be a change of public opinnion in the US and the Chinese deciding to get a grip on their pollution problem. Both will (hopefully!) lead to longer term policy decisions in both countries to curb CO2 emissions and carbon use. If one of these things does not happen, the world as a whole and the country that fails to act will be in deep trouble. I am hopefully for both, though.
I think that in the US we will have a sea change in public awareness about climate issues over the next few years and a call to treat it for the serious problem it is. So that's just yet another set of neocon policies going up in flames.
We will also see a change in consumer behaviour brought on by higher energy prices. The sadening part is that we shouldn't have to wait for PO and PNG to do that for us but learn to act according to our best knowledge. It doesn't look like we will, though.
On the utility side there seem to be a lot of good things initiatives on, certainly where I live. PG&E has very similar programs to the Austin utility. Nation wide there seems to be two types of utilities: those with management that gets it and those with management that doesn't. Or maybe it goes deeper than that: some utilities define themselves as public service organizations while others are more interested in near term share holder value. Needless to say that both types have made great blunders in the past and both need to be regulated and suoervised more strictly to avoid future fiscal catastrophies.
Probably the best attempt to show foresight is the West Governors climate change initiative, which at the same time doubles (certainly for California) as an energy independence effort. And I would even look at the state level in Texas and recognize that there is recognition of the vast potential for renewables.
What stands between the potential and the implementation of renewables is time, though. Last year the wind and solar industry together had a market size of roughly $30 billion. To put that in perspective: Seagate, the largest maker of hard drives, had a revenue of $10.6 billion last year and the storage industry as a whole is a $30 billion industry. In other words: we are roughly spending as much on storing information right now as we are spending on renewable energy. (And please don't forget to compare that to Ford's net loss of $12.7 billion. Ford could have avoided that loss and done an incredible serive to the country by offering a more balanced line of vehicles! Not to mention the thousands of workers they would not have had to lay off if they had better management...)
The average worldwide spending on wind/solar energy is a mere $5/person/year. It should be obvious that even the poorest of the poor are spending a lot more than that on energy, yet, we only invest relatively little in replacing our energy infrastructure.
The realistic growth rate of idustries which depend on large scale hardware investments is 20-50%. We have seen 30% growth over the past few years, thanks to mostly European and Japanese inititives, some of which in my view are probably getting closer to the limits of their potential funding capacity. New investments will therefor have to come from the US or we will see a drop in the growth of these industries.
If we assume that a realistic average growth of renewables is 20% for the next ten years and certainly less after that, the total renewables market will be roughly $200 billion by 2017. If we allocate that proportionally to total energy consumption, the US would carry roughly 25% of that and spend $50 billion annually on renwables. That's a spending of $170 per capita and closer to $500 a year per household.
In addition, since every household has to spend a couple thousand dollars a year in replacement cost for their car and some money of home improvement, we can assume that the total annual spending that will go towards increased energy efficiency and indpendence will amount to a few hundred billion dollars and will roughly stay there or only grow more slowly after the initial growth period.
Now... this is my guess as to where we are headed in terms of infrastructure change. I might be wrong by a factor of a few, but certainly not by an order of magnitude (nobody can afford to spend all of their income on conservation and renewables). I am certainly not a cornucopian on any respect and don't expect any miracles in terms of energy sources or demand or in the rate of change we are capable of.
But if you project that to how much fossil energy we can save and replace with that money, the numbers are dominated in the short term (10-15 year) by conservation efforts which will hopefully get us 30-50% reductions (per capita) in transportation fuels and electricity and very similar savings in heating. The period after that will see more effective programs to replace all conventional energy sources with renewables (solar and wind can probably start to replace old power plants somewhere around the year 2020). That part of the effort will take a long time, certainly on the order of half a century. I certainly do not expect to be around when they will shut down the majority of coal burning plants. I also do not expect to see energy prices fall significantly in my lifetime.
The expansion of the "renewable fuels standard" to the "alternative fuels standard" looks to be a nod to CTL. We shall find out when the initiative is rolled out.
The text of the proposal at the White House site http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/energy/ seems to be laying the groundwork for many of the ideas and policy recommendations advanced by "The American Energy Security Study" Done by the American Energy Sucurity Initiative(with funding from peabody, rentech, DOD, railroad and mining groups, among others)
http://www.americanenergysecurity.org/studyrelease.html
A cursory reading of the executive summary shows many similarities, including, quite coincidentally, a 20% reduction in gasoline usage by 2017.
When it comes down to it, we will continue to transform coal and natural gas into electricity and liquid fuel because that is what the consumer demands. (austex)
That is hardly "what the customer demands". The customer simple demands energy. They don't care about how you make it. (InfinitePossibilities.)
In Switzerland, as is known, electricity is made from hydro electric dams and nuclear power, in about 60-40 proportion (+4% thermal) respectively. Pioneers, they were - in the past.
Switz. used to be a swing producer, helping out the neighboring countries. Since last year (or 2005, the precise date is not important), it imports more electricity than it exports. The imports come mostly (but not only) from France, with its impressive nuclear production.
As use of electricity rises year by year, inexorably, by between 2.5 and 4 % , more is needed. And more and more....
Switz. is a rich country, it can afford to buy, pay, etc. The proposition is to build 4 gas-to-electricity plants, and pay the requisite carbon pollution penalties (Kyoto, etc)
Every political party has objections. The left: good to move away from nuclear, but the pollution is simply too horrible. The right: good to get more energy, but it is not acceptable that these plants won’t earn money in the free market - at least they figured that out - buying the gas and paying the carbon tax etc makes it non profitable so it will be subsidized by the tax payer...argh. Not good business! And various other parties out of the mainstream object as well, with more arguments.
A new concept was thus quickly forged to reconcile these different actors: it is called transition. For the left, it is transition to ‘renewables’ (wind, etc.) for the right, the desperate wait until new nuclear stations can/will be built, or until the oil situation eases up, as it must do, according to them.
The gas plants will be built. Certainly. To keep the economy booming, to keep growth chugging along (economy, population, GDP) even if it is only 1% plus by year, Switz. will now start to buy natural gas from wherever it can get it.
Why, beyond all the posturing? Because energy... has a multiplier effect, it is still cheap at the price. Got the clout the pocket to buy it you can get a bigger return..Sustainable? affordable? renewable? ecological? Nobody cares, or rather they do care, but simply cannot reconcile themselves to thinking that what they want, what is needed, what is normal (free lunch) is nefarious, how can that be, it ain't natural.
I was wondering about the natural gas plants. I was aware of a proposal for 500 MW a few years ago, but I thought the Swiss saw Italy et al with their gas problems and thought different.
I am well aware of the French-Swiss electricity trade. The Swiss buy CHEAP French nuke late at night and save water. Then they generate peak power and export that at a premium to France, Italy, Germany, etc.
I thought Swiss generation was still about 50:50 hydro & nuke (remember SBB has it's own hydropower plants to run the railroads, generating at 16.67 Hz instead of 50 Hz, and this power is not "commercial" power).
I have noted that the Swiss are repowering many dams and other power plants and adding small hydroplants, so hydro is growing, if slowly. And Grand Dixence (2,000 MW from memory) is about to come back on-line. That is two nukes !
Any new news on the Trans-Alp project ?
Any Swiss wind turbines ?
Best Hopes,
Alan
Grandfathered coal plants are not covered under the 'New Source Review' laws and therefore don't face the restrictions, particular on mercury emission.
(geoff Goodell's book 'Big Coal' is very good on this
http://www.powells.com/biblio/0618319409?&PID=25450 )
I think what TXU is aiming at is that eventually there will be CO2 restrictions, but existing producers will have 'grandfathered' allocations of permits (this is what has happened in Europe with the ETS).
So if they are a big producer of CO2, they will get more permits, which will be more valuable.
Call it a 'land grab' strategy.
Otherwise they will manage to stave off CO2 restrictions for as long as possible.
Nuclear is hedging their bets. My own view is the consequences of more coal plants are so bad, that we should encourage as much nuclear as we can *not* because it will be cheap, but because it will be expensive (and encourage more conservation as a result) and because it does not emit CO2.
I agree Jason. I tend to be skeptical to the point of being totally dismissive of EROEI figures, especially if they are quoted by someone who has an obvious energy axe to grind. As Tom Robertson on energyresources keeps saying, there is no standardized and widely accepted methodology for measuring EROEI. So one ends up getting lots of apples vs oranges comparisons. At this point, I think it's possible that quoting EROEI figures does more harm than good. Possibly it is only useful to weed out obvious losers (like hydrogen and possibly ethanol).
As Tom Robertson on energyresources keeps saying, there is no standardized and widely accepted methodology for measuring EROEI.
Yes. But that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be done. The reasons why it isn’t done even roughly, badly, yet leading to an accepted standard, is that such a measure is not conceptually accepted, people don’t want to know; they prefer to talk of costs in dollars (etc), to use a medium of exchange that disregards exploiting the earth/environment.
what is the energy loss for high voltage electrical lines? i hear them buzzing away overhead so they are not loss free. you have a figure ?