TDP: The Next Big Thing

If you are a layperson, it may not be clear to you just how much of the current infatuation with cellulosic ethanol is hype, and how much is based on realistic assessments. So, I thought I would take you down memory lane and revisit another technology that was going to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.

The Hype: TDP Will Save the World

In May of 2003, Discover Magazine published Anything Into Oil. It was a look at a technology called thermal depolymerization (TDP), which could take any organic material and turn it into oil. This was a high profile write-up with a lot of hype, and the technology of Brian Appel and his company Changing World Technologies (CWT) was really going to change the world.

I remember the first time I read the article, and I thought to myself "Wow, this is really something special." However, the hype of the technology didn't quite match up with reality. Let's take a look back at that original article, and see if we can draw some parallels with some of our current biofuels delusions.

The article starts off:

"This is a solution to three of the biggest problems facing mankind," says Brian Appel, chairman and CEO of Changing World Technologies, the company that built this pilot plant and has just completed its first industrial-size installation in Missouri. "This process can deal with the world's waste. It can supplement our dwindling supplies of oil. And it can slow down global warming."

Pardon me, says a reporter, shivering in the frigid dawn, but that sounds too good to be true. "Everybody says that," says Appel. He is a tall, affable entrepreneur who has assembled a team of scientists, former government leaders, and deep-pocketed investors to develop and sell what he calls the thermal depolymerization process, or TDP.

So far, so good. An entrepeneur (like Vinod Khosla), former government leaders (like Tom Daschle), and lots of deep-pocketed investors. The article opens with a little bit of hype, and follows with another liberal dose:

"The potential is unbelievable," says Michael Roberts, a senior chemical engineer for the Gas Technology Institute, an energy research group. "You're not only cleaning up waste; you're talking about distributed generation of oil all over the world."

"This is not an incremental change. This is a big, new step," agrees Alf Andreassen, a venture capitalist with the Paladin Capital Group and a former Bell Laboratories director.

Yeah, but it's got to be expensive, right? Not so:

Private investors, who have chipped in $40 million to develop the process, aren't the only ones who are impressed. The federal government has granted more than $12 million to push the work along.

"We will be able to make oil for $8 to $12 a barrel," says Paul Baskis, the inventor of the process. "We are going to be able to switch to a carbohydrate economy."

The article goes on to explain that the technology originated back in the 1980's:

Usually, the Btu content in the resulting oil or gas barely exceeds the amount needed to make the stuff. That's the challenge that Baskis, a microbiologist and inventor who lives in Rantoul, Illinois, confronted in the late 1980s. He says he "had a flash" of insight about how to improve the basic ideas behind another inventor's waste-reforming process.

"The prototype I saw produced a heavy, burned oil," recalls Baskis. "I drew up an improvement and filed the first patents." He spent the early 1990s wooing investors and, in 1996, met Appel, a former commodities trader. "I saw what this could be and took over the patents," says Appel, who formed a partnership with the Gas Technology Institute and had a demonstration plant up and running by 1999.

And they were on the verge of printing money, planning to make oil for $15 a barrel (I thought it was $8-$12?):

And it will be profitable, promises Appel. "We've done so much testing in Philadelphia, we already know the costs," he says. "This is our first-out plant, and we estimate we'll make oil at $15 a barrel. In three to five years, we'll drop that to $10, the same as a medium-size oil exploration and production company. And it will get cheaper from there."

The Hype Begins to Unravel

Well, it's been 3 to 5 years, and things have not worked out as planned. Costs were much, much higher than forecast. Unforeseen complications appeared. Small technical problems turned out to be big technical problems after the process was scaled up.

Let's look at some of the issues. A Newsday article in 2004, while also full of hype, foretold of some potential problems:

Turning Garbage into Oil—and Cash

Appel and his financial backers have bet more than $66 million that the modern-day alchemy practiced by Changing World Technologies Inc. will revolutionize the way the world deals with its waste, reduce dependence on foreign oil, fight the spread of mad cow disease and even ease global warming.

Not bad for a 25-person company that Appel, who has no scientific training, runs from the top floor of a Hempstead Avenue china shop owned by his wife, Doreen.

No scientific training? Hmm. Where else have I seen amateurs jumping into an alternative fuel technology with both feet? Oh, yeah. Here and here. (I don't mean to sound elitist, because amateurs have made valuable contributions in many fields. However, they are more likely to make mistakes/miscalculations than a professional).

The article continues with one more bit of hype that eventually turned out to be unfounded. More on this later:

Incredibly, the only "waste" that's left behind is distilled water. There are no smokestacks bellowing chemical-laden smoke, and no pipes discharging fetid wastewater.

The article continues by indicating that despite the hype, there really isn't that much that is known about the process:

Although Discover, Money and Scientific American magazines have all written wildly enthusiastic stories about the company recently -- Money called it "The Next Big Thing" -- competitors and independent researchers point out that Changing World Technologies has released very little information about the details of its patented process.

So the skeptics (AKA, naysayers) weigh in:

"You have to remember that people have been pressure-cooking different types of biomass for a long time now, and we really haven't seen these kinds of breakthroughs," said Ralph Overend, a leading authority in the bio-energy field and a research fellow at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Golden, Colo.

"People always stay skeptical until they can see the real data," added Overend, editor of the academic journal Biomass & Bioenergy.

Appel said the company's focus has been on building the Missouri plant, not on publishing scientific papers that he worries could tip off potential competitors.

And then there were those nagging cost issues:

Skeptics also wonder about the project's profitability, and whether it can truly compete with traditional oil drillers and refiners.

Appel acknowledges that producing a barrel of oil through thermal conversion costs about 50 percent more than doing it by conventional refining.

Only 50% more?

And then he makes the mistake that so many others repeatedly make:

If the price of oil keeps rising, he said, so will profits.

This is the same mistake that proponents of tar sands, GTL, oil shale, cellulosic ethanol, and many others have run into. They believe that oil prices will rise, and yet their costs will magically remain where they were. In fact, what happens is that as oil prices rise, all the costs associated with these various projects rise. That’s why oil shale has been imminent for 100 years. That’s why ExxonMobil is scrapping GTL plans. And that’s why tar sands costs have skyrocketed. A poster has referred to this trend as The Law of Receding Horizons.

The Bloom Comes off the Rose

So, where does the technology stand today? How far off were those $8 or $15/bbl costs estimates? After all they had run the pilot plants. They had "done so much testing in Philadelphia", they "already know the costs." Turns out they didn't:

Reports from 2005 summarized some economic setbacks which the Carthage plant encountered since its planning stages. It was thought that concern over mad cow disease would prevent the use of turkey waste and other animal products as cattle feed, and thus this waste would be free. As it turns out, turkey waste may still be used as feed in the United States, so that the facility must purchase that feed stock at a cost of $30 to $40 per ton, adding $15 to $20 per barrel to the cost of the oil. Final cost, as of January 2005, was $80/barrel ($1.90/gal).

$80 a barrel! That is an order of magnitude higher than their early estimates. (Incidentally, if their process really worked as they claimed, they could just feed it corn and turn it into oil at a very high EROEI). Not only that, they obviously made more errors in their estimates than just presuming the feedstock would be free. Subtract that $20/bbl and you are still at $60 a barrel - 300% over their highest prior estimate of $15/bbl. Cellulosic ethanol hypesters, take note.

And there was more bad news:

Turkey-oil plant closed due to foul odors

SPRINGFIELD, Mo. - A foul-smelling plant that turns turkey byproducts into fuel oil was ordered closed by the governor Wednesday until the company finds a way to clear the air.

Renewable Environmental Solutions Inc. in the southwest Missouri community of Carthage had agreed in May to improve its odor-control systems after state and city officials sued, alleging the smell posed a public nuisance.

The company also was cited six times by state environmental officials this year, Gov. Matt Blunt said, but the smell continued.

Well, at least there were "no smokestacks bellowing chemical-laden smoke."

The Lesson Here

CWT still exists as a company today. Like cellulosic ethanol, TDP is a technology that actually works. But the technology was hyped beyond reason. People did not apply enough skepticism before embracing the promise of the technology. It was really going to be "the next big thing."

But costs and complications were grossly underestimated. They fell victim to The Law of Receding Horizons. They learned that the public doesn't like smelly plants in their community. Discover ran an updated article in 2006 in which Appel admitted "We have made mistakes. We were too aggressive in our earlier projections." The hype just ultimately did not match the reality. And while TDP may make some small contribution to our energy needs, it isn't going to make any measurable dent in our fossil fuel usage.

But at least we have cellulosic ethanol, which I have heard really is "the next big thing."

Hi Robert,

Nice review...but given the track history, I would suppose it(TDP) is not dead until it is buried.

If the investors were PEAK OIL aware, one should ask, where does all this garbage come from....hmmm...

Either way, best of luck to them.

I would suppose it(TDP) is not dead until it is buried.

And you'd be correct. Last I heard, the company was pulling up stakes and moving to Europe, because of the more generous subsidies offered there.

Nice...but is there more garbage :P

There is — and it'll be "Peak Garbage" in 5 ... 4 ... 3 ... 2 ...

The problem will solve itself.
But not in a nice way.

ah yes. the economics of subsidies are much easier to exploit than those of reality.

"The economics of subsidies are much easier to exploit than those of reality."

Heh - can I use that as a quote?

"You can never solve a problem on the level on which it was created."
Albert Einstein

This is great, thanks. With time, it becomes possible to take a look back at what was said, hyped etc from (a whole!) 4 years ago and see how it panned out. More retrospective like this is useful for gaining perspective.

Businessmen know that having engineers write the press release is a sure-fire way to not get investors.

I remember when Discover published their first article about this. Many readers couldn't believe it, and wrote angry letters accusing Discover of falling for a perpetual motion scam.

I knew it wasn't a scam, but those objections pointed to what I saw as the real reason this technology (now called thermal conversion - "thermal depolymerization" was deemed too hard to say) was never going to replace imported oil. The feedstock, even if it was free monetarily, would not be free energy-wise. There's not enough turkey waste out there to replace oil, and it would be really silly to farm turkeys just to feed the thermal conversion plant. Assuming we could farm enough of them, which we can't.

I think this technology may prove to be a useful way of getting rid of waste - sewage, old tires, mad cow infected carcasses, etc. - but as a replacement for oil, it was never going to fly.

Basically, it's a form of recycling. Recycling is good, but it doesn't actually produce any new energy.

Ok Robt, so what about butanol? People seem pretty bright-eyed and bushy-tailed about that too.

Actually, don't bother... picking off biofuel contenders one by one is a waste of time, as long as people are willing to believe in the next candidate's snake oil.

It's a bit like the thousand variations on perpetual motion. You stop wanting to believe in the next scheme only when you understand that producing liquid fuels for internal combustion engines is fundamentally a dead-end idea.

This is the crunch issue for the paradigm shift we need.

Transportation of the masses in motorized individual transport units is the dead end.

No! No! I want my electric car, dammit! before I'm too poor to afford it.

But I realize may end up with a pony trap when I get too old to ride my bike...

No! No! I want my electric car, dammit! before I'm too poor to afford it.

If I do an analysis of the numbers from Khebab for the price of Oil below, my fuel costs won't be higher than my maintenance costs for my 4 cylinder Camry until about 2012.

I may well be a wide eyed optimist but I think it's likely the costs of electric cars will decrease substantially by then.

Toilforoil, could drop me a line at Stoneleigh2006(at)msn(dot)com, please?

Snake oil! THAT'S IT!!! No one has thought of burning that yet, have they?

Butanol is really good stuff its the best energy provider next to gasoline in some ways better than diesel butanol producing bugs would be cool. Note the higher alcohols like butanol are not that soluble in water.

Butanol

9.1 mL/100 mL H2O at 25 °C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol so about 10% by volume.

So if you can get bugs that can tolerate greater than 10% you feed them and the butanol floats to the top and you get it with a low water content.

Removing the distillation step is a big deal also if you had fuel cells that used butanol you prob don't need to do any more processing.

Higher alcohols such as pentol have even lower solubility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentanol
I'd not be surprised if pentanol would work with both diesel and spark based engines

Good stuff IMHO

Butanol, and n- alcohols up to about n-heptanol, are potential ICE fuels, and will no doubt one day be items in the "fuel boutique" for those times when nothing but an ICE will do (you just have to fire up that old Duesenberg, or need portable energy for your trek up K2). They are nearly drop-in replacements for gasoline and perhaps diesel fuel. Bacteria that make butanol have been known for nearly a century.

However, along with ethanol, they are destined to occupy a small niche in the overall energy budget. The first thing everyone is going to do (dragged kicking and screaming and shooting their neighbors) is conserve. It will become rare for solitary individuals to cruise around in two-ton steel vehicles just for idle amusement. Eventually, even in USistan, transportation will be electrified. There just isn't any other way, really.

The reason is this: there aren't enough atoms of fixed carbon in the biosphere to replace fossil fixed carbon at the rate we are currently burning them. By a factor of several hundred, near as I can gather from articles occasionally linked from TOD.

The problem will solve itself.
But not in a nice way.

They work just fine in a fuel cell too. I don't disagree that they will be used only where needed but they are a lot better fuels for a host of reasons than ethanol. Unless/until we get batteries with a energy density similar to gasoline organic fuels coupled with a fuel cell will have uses. And they won't be cheap probably 8-10 a gallon and probably with a nice tax on top. And the supply will probably be limited.

Their is nothing wrong with organic fuels used as needed.

"The reason is this: there aren't enough atoms of fixed carbon in the biosphere to replace fossil fixed carbon at the rate we are currently burning them. By a factor of several hundred, near as I can gather from articles occasionally linked from TOD."

I would really like to see this calculation. It would be an interesting exercise to see what kind of turnover is nessisary in biomass growth to sustain current consumption.

So would I - that's the about as baseline as it gets. We'll find out real fast whether we have a physics problem or an engineering problem.

I was thinking of a remark posted some time in the last six or eight months stating that we are blowing through 400 years' worth of fossil hydrocarbon every year. Perhaps that source was talking about the natural sequestration rate in peat bogs and such.

I may have overstated the ratio, as the Wikipedia says the biosphere has "about 1900 gigatonnes of carbon". So if we throw every last polar bear, housecat, and blade of grass into the TDP retort, we may juuust be able to make our 85mbpd of artificial fuel for awhile... :)

The problem will solve itself.
But not in a nice way.

Fixing carbon from CO2 in the atmosphere is certainly possible using solar energy. The problem is not carbon, the problem is converting sunlight to energy in an efficient manner. No one doubts that there is enough energy hitting the earth.
I doubt that the economy can survive waiting until 2030 or 2040 for a new fleet of electric cars, so we need to solve the biofuel problem somehow to power our soon-to-be-downsized-increasingly-vanpooled fleet.

The problem is not carbon, the problem is converting sunlight to energy in an efficient manner.

No, the problem is doing it (conversion to useful energy) in a cost effective manner. Efficiency per se would only otherwise be important if sunlight (and land to collect it on) were scarce. As it stands, efficiency is important only to the extent it affects the capital cost of the system per unit of capacity.

there aren't enough atoms of fixed carbon in the biosphere to replace fossil fixed carbon at the rate we are currently burning them.

Maybe, but it doesn't answer the right question.

We don't inherently need to replace fossel fixed carbon at the rate we are consuming now. We just need enough energy to provide the humans on this planet with a viable lifestyle and economic system.

It seems that from a theoretical perspective we do have enough. Engineer Poet posted a piece a while ago showing how biomass could provide much of our energy needs. Solar could supplement it (http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/11/27/0432/3533). Finally, there is no real need for humans to use as much energy as we do. We are only so wasteful because energy is cheap. Once it is no longer cheap, we will use less to produce the same results.

I'm not saying it is easy or that it will happen, but it doesn't seem like there is any theoretical barrier to adjustment to declining fossil fuel supply.

We don't inherently need to replace fossel fixed carbon at the rate we are consuming now. We just need enough energy to provide the humans on this planet with a viable lifestyle and economic system.

True.

I just sort of latched onto this subject, because for me it's like the ethanol hype only more so. There seems to be a 'techno-fix' mentality about these proposals with an implicit assumption that they will scale up to tens of millions of barrels / day.

In the end, I think recycling and reuse will prevail. It's a lot cheaper to simply separate the glass, plastic, steel, dog poop, carrion, spent batteries, etc (or to keep them separate) than to somehow try to cook them down into primordial soup and re-refine them. It's a symptom of our open-cycle culture, I think, to just throw everything together like that...

It seems that from a theoretical perspective we do have enough. Engineer Poet posted a piece a while ago showing how biomass could provide much of our energy needs. Solar could supplement it (http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/11/27/0432/3533).

Well I suppose, until the number of carbon atoms in the form of humans equals 1900 gigatonnes or so :^)

Finally, there is no real need for humans to use as much energy as we do. We are only so wasteful because energy is cheap. Once it is no longer cheap, we will use less to produce the same results.

Unfortunately as explained by Matt Savinar, Jay Hanson, and others: it isn't anything like human nature to even try to conserve. I think the re-education process is going to be extremely painful at best.

And then you have the likelihood of catabolic collapse: the good news is, almost everybody survives; the bad news is the same thing, as we now have six billion mouths to feed on a dwindling resource base. Last time humans lived in comfortable harmony with nature, there were not nearly this many of us.

The problem will solve itself.
But not in a nice way.

Hasn't the price of corn doubled over the last year? And where will it go from here? Oh, but wait, the price of oil is going up. So I guess it is smooth sailing form here. Where do we go to get our honest brokers? Certainly not the government which is in bed with the corn ethanol producers. But wait, we are just in a transition stage to cellulosic ethanol. And the beauty of that is that there is always hope for better and magical technology.

I still can't help but think that there was a very good reason that we went from wood to coal to oil. Even Newt Gingrich acknowledges that we built the richest nation on earth in large part because we had cheap and plentiful oil. Clearly, we should be skeptical of any scheme that purports to change that basic equation.

But the optimists say we can continue to grow as fast as ever even as we transition to renewable, sustainable, and clean alternatives. I think we should and must make that transition but I think the promise of continued growth is just another politician's lie or self delusion.

To be fair, though, what choice do the politicians have? To tell the truth to the American people who live a lie is to guarantee that we will never begin to make the necessary transition.

At least those of us who remain skeptical will not be shocked, horrified, and angry once the curtain hiding the wizard is removed.

When the Carthage, Missouri plant was being built and the TDP process was being hyped (seems like they had at least one ChemE from MIT that weighed in on this somewhat positively, but his words were chosen extremely carefully), people were coming to me and asking what I thought because part of my current job includes the agriculture and forest products sector and energy/environment issues.

I told this that "this doesn't smell right." Three semesters of ChemE thermo, 2 semesters of PChem (granted many years ago) just made things "not look right."

Given North Carolina's large hog and turkey populations, this seemed like a "miracle" for those searching for an answer or for the next policy moves. At the height of looking for favorable reviews (at least from someone), the plant in Carthage shutdown and the website for CWT would not take you anywhere beyond a home page. No links were active.

I pointed this out and many of the issues that you have raised as to why it was probably "more sizzle than bacon" and the technical flaws (many associated with basic chemistry and thermodynamics). Time has rendered (pun intended) my initial impressions and the lessons learned in getting that degree correct.

Next!

So, what you are saying is that these schemes don't really make sense even as recycling plants? That's too bad -- but maybe fossil fuels are still too cheap.

Or the subsidy structure is screwed up -- it is cheap to raise turkeys, process them and cart their meat around. But it is expensive to get rid of the waste products.

This would seem to be the result of "externalizing" costs, not the result of a rational marketplace.

I think we need to be careful about what we consider "recycling." Remelting aluminum cans or iron/steel for new products is recycling. Recovering the cellulose fiber from paper for "new" paper products is recycling. Spinning plastic fiber for insulating clothing from used soft drink bottles is recycling.

But turkeys for oil isn't recycling in my book. In fact, as the plant in Carthage, MO has shown, most of the turkey waste is not really suitable for "easy conversion." The blend of organic compounds that make up any "oil" just are not present in most waste.

This is a matter of chemistry. Trying to tease out the chemistry and the amount of energy required to convert turkey waste (or any waste) to the proper range and combination of hydrocarbons to make "oil," or other similar products, can be very and problematic. No matter how much we wish a process to work, we are always confronted by the laws of thermodynamics...regardless of the price of fossil fuels.

For turkeys and some other wastes it would be far easier to "burn them" through some gasification (biological or thermal) process and to use that energy for some other purpose.

I also had it fail a sniff test for me when I first read about it. The thing that bothered me the most was the fast and loose use of numbers. I clearly remember a quote of 560% efficiency from one of the reporters writing about the process. When I dug deeper I found that the reporter misunderstood the CWT person who told him the process was 85% efficient. Or maybe the CWT spokesperson spun the 85% efficiency to sound like 6-7:1 EROEI rather than the <1:1 it actually was. In anycase, after noticing such utter disregard for fundamentally important issues I stopped reading about TDP. It seems a viable way of cleaning up/converting waste, but only if we are willing to pay for it...

Robert,

When it comes right down to it we are all laypersons, on God's green earth. If you want to see what this layperson, and I am just that, thought of ethanol when GWB started promoting it, see my take at the time.

http://www.blackbaldgorilla.com/new_securidog.htm

While I have great respect for TOD and the people who contribute to it (including yourself, though I have some disagreement with some of your conclusions) I had never heard of TOD at the time George started romping and stomping about ethanol. I think I had a pretty good handle on the value of ethanol at that time, as a layperson.

Now having got that off my chest I will read your article. I expect it to be insightful.

Excellent post, Robert. You've summed up the TDP issue clearly and logically.

Do we need more research here? Yeah, we do. But are we ready to replace petroleum with this stuff? No way on this green earth.

Ghawar Is Dying
The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function. - Dr. Albert Bartlett

Thanks for the keypost, Robert. Nice one.

This reminds me of so many science fair projects in the '60s. A florence flask full of burned black gunk, and out of the condenser tube come a few drops of oil. Filter it a little bit, and it closely resembles the example amber vial of WTI or 10W30 or whatever.

The key to managing the smell is to start with something that's mostly carbohydrate, like banana peels. If you put turkey guts in that thing, it's gonna stink because of the nitrogen and protein. You also want to avoid sulfur-rich garbage ...

The problem will solve itself.
But not in a nice way.

Discover mag prints a lot of questionable science. I gave up on them many years ago.

Tarsand costs may have gone up but the companies and projects are still profitable and are projects still continuing. Billions in investment and profits unables development of cost reducing processes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athabasca_Tar_Sands
Major producing or planned developments in the Athabasca Oil Sands include the following projects:

Suncor Energy Inc. reported March 2007 oil sands facility during averaged approximately 258,000 barrels per day
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/070405/to352.html?.v=13

Syncrude 356,000 bpd Mar 2007 avg
http://www.cos-trust.com/asset/ssb_shipments.aspx.

Shell Canada currently operated its Muskeg River mine producing 155,000 bpd and the Scotford Upgrader at Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta. Shell intends to open its new Jackpine mine and expand total production to 500,000 bpd over the next few years.

Nexen's in-situ Long Lake SAGD project is on schedule to produce 70,000 bpd by late 2007, with plans to expand it to 240,000 bpd over the next 10 years.

CNRL's $8 billion Horizon in-situ project is planned to produce 110,000 bpd on startup in 2008 and grow to 300,000 bpd by 2010.

Total S.A.'s subsidiary Deer Creek Energy is operating a SAGD project on its Joslyn lease, producing 10,000 bpd. It intends on constructing its mine by 2010 to expand its production by 100,000 bpd.

Imperial Oil's $5 to $8 billion Kearl Oil Sands Project is projected to start construction in 2008 and produce 100,000 bpd by 2010. Imperial also operates a 160,000 bpd in-situ operation in the Cold Lake oil sands region.

Synenco Energy and SinoCanada Petroleum Corp., a subsidiary of Sinopec, China's largest oil refiner, have agreed to create the $3.5 billion Northern Lights mine, projected to produce 100,000 bpd by 2009.

Canadian oil output should climb to about 2.89 million barrels a day, 9.1 percent more than the 2.61 million barrel a day average in 2006. (the increase in production would be from the oilsands) so about 1.4 million bpd at the end of 2007.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=2c79e2d8-...

Alberta production
http://www.eub.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_0_265_223_0_43/http%...

Progress report
http://www.eub.ca/docs/products/osprogressreports/2007/2007ColdLakeCNRLW...
http://advancednano.blogspot.com

advancednano, Thanks for the great links! Costs are the real answer to the cornucopians, who insist that Tar is oil even though it doesn't flow without extremely expensive hydrogenation and leaves behind huge pit mines, massive waste sand and an ocean of polluted water.

Tar sands is quite real, and it will be done on scale.

3m b/d is certainly likely. 5 is possible.

It won't, most likely, be 10 m b/d. At least not in the next 25 years. There just isn't the infrastructure and the water, barring some pretty amazing things in the oil price.

Hi Valuethinker,

Do you any references/links for these numbers? 5 mmbpd is not a number I have heard in discussion, yet.