Cracking shale and why horizontal wells are slick

This past week, courtesy of Leanan and Gail it seems that there have been more than the usual number of stories on natural gas developments and the potentials of formations such as the Utica shale, the Haynesville shale, and the Marcellus shale. These are all relatively tight deposits that have only become economic because of increasing gas prices and advances in technology. So I thought it might of interest to explain just a little of that technology, and why it costs so much more for the horizontal well. So the post is largely going to be on horizontal wells, vertical natural fractures and slick artificial ones. To “thank” Gail I am also going to try and describe a slide on ethanol use that I saw at a talk I went to this week on Global Warming by Richard Stegemeier, a member of the NAE, and lest it has been missed I will end with a reference to the Worlds Worst Wind Farm.


To begin with it’s probably best to start with rock pressure. And to explain this I am going to do some simplification, so, as I ask in most of these “techie talks”, to those who do know better please understand that this is trying to explain concepts, but also please do comment on where I may either accidentally or by error, get something wrong.

As we go deeper into the earth, the weight of the ground above us will also increase. For a very simple measure we can assume that this is around a 1 pound per square inch (psi) increase for every foot deeper we go. So if we were, for example, 10,000 ft down then the pressure in the rock due to that weight would, undisturbed, be around 10,000 psi. (This is about 7 times the pressure that you see coming out of a car wash pressure washer for example).

When a oilwell is drilled vertically down into that rock it does not see this pressure, but it does see a part of it. The reason is that the rock on either side of the hole can now expand into the hole, and we’d rather it didn’t. (It’s somewhat as though you step on a rubber eraser – the eraser will bulge out laterally as it compresses vertically under your weight). The resistant pressure in the horizontal direction can be calculated as a function of the vertical pressure through a ratio known as Poisson’s Ratio . Sufficient for our discussion to say that can have a value of about 0.3. So that if we are 10,000 ft down, then the vertical pressure on the rock will be around 10,000 psi, and the horizontal pressure will be around 3,000 psi. If the well is vertical then the casing for the well has to be designed for the 3,000 psi level.

Now, if instead of just drilling the well vertically I turned and drilled it out horizontally through the rock, then the hole would now have the 10,000 psi squeezing down vertically, and the 3,000 psi coming in from the side. So the first thought that we have is that the casing (the lining that we put into the hole to make sure that it stays open) has to be a bit stronger. Life gets, however, a bit more complicated than that. When you put a hole into ground that is under pressure, the first response of the rock is to try and move the weight of the rock over the hole onto the rock on the sides of the hole. This roughly doubles the pressure that is on that thin layer. Before the hole was put there that particular rock was held in place by the rock around it, and collectively the mass could carry the original pressure. But now there is no rock where the hole is, and thus the confining pressure on the rock there is less. (In technical terms you have shifted the load from a triaxial confinement under 10,000 psi to a uniaxial load of 20,000 psi.) The result can be that the rock on the sides of the hole crushes under the load. This then puts crushed rock or sand into the hole, and that interferes with lots of things. Now you can possibly stop that by keeping the pressure high in the liquid that you are using inside the hole to get the drilled rock out (the drilling mud), but if you keep that pressure too high, then the oil/gas won’t flow to the well and so you have to drop it down to a certain level.

Life also gets a bit more complicated in reality, since the presence of the fluid in the rock tends to even out the pressure within it. So that while, relatively close to the surface, and in a dry rock the ratios may be as I gave them earlier, with a fluid saturated rock, and in an over-pressured region, the horizontal pressure can be as high as 80% or more of the vertical value. The values generally get closer to 100% as the wells go even deeper, but that is another story.

So rock pressure is the first problem that you have to deal with. But why do we drill the horizontal holes in the first place, why can’t we just use the old vertical ones. Well the reason is that the old ones didn’t work very well. And to explain that I am gong to try and re-explain a recent article from Penn State . (then I’ll give the relevant quote).

Shale is a very fine grained rock, and though gas can gather in the small pores of its structure, if the gas is to flow to a well, then it has to migrate through passages that are very narrow, and thus very resistive to that flow. However, as the shale has been formed under geological pressure and over time, the pressures not only compressed it from mud into shale, but they also caused it to fracture. In the Marcellus shale, for example, the cracks that occurred in the shale are roughly vertical, and form two sets that are perpendicular to one another.

The first advantage that a horizontal well has, over a vertical one, is that the well can penetrate a long way through the rock that carries the oil or gas (OG). The amount of OG that comes from the rock is, in part, a function of how long the length of well is in the rock that carries it. So that while a vertical well might produce say 800 bd from a well that goes straight through a 200 ft thick layer of oil-bearing rock, when the well is drilled so that it goes out 4 miles horizontally through the oil-bearing rock, then the production per day may go up to 10,000 barrels.

The second advantage relates to the way in which the fractures lie in the rock. Because they are vertical, a vertical well won’t hit very many of them, and so since these fractures provide an easy flow of OG to the well, rather than the difficult path through just the rock, then the well will not show very much production. (And this was the case with many of these shales when tested earlier).

However if the well is horizontal (see figure) then the well will intersect many of these fractures and in drawing the fluid from them will also provide an easy path for fluid to ease out of the rock into the fracture paths, so that the entire rock can be more easily drained.

Now in the picture I have shown one set of joints as being bigger than the other. And that is usually the case, because the horizontal pressure, that earlier I had suggested was the same in each direction, actually usually isn’t. The strongest horizontal pressure will tend to close up those fractures that run perpendicular to it, and tend to open the ones that run parallel with it. Thus it helps to know at the level of the shale, what the pressures in the different directions are (those engineering among us generally refer to them as stresses rather than pressures). The best direction to drill is then perpendicular to the maximum horizontal pressure, if we want to take the best advantage of the fractures in the rock. The only problem with this is that it also increases the pressures on the sides of the borehole, so that if we go that way, and the rock is not that strong, then we may be making the borehole stability worse.

But even with a horizontal well the production may not be that great, because the fractures are still relatively narrow, and so flow won’t be that fast. And so there is another tool that can be used, and that is to deliberately put a crack into the rock on the side of the borehole. On a very small scale, if you look at the picture, you can see a shaded zone around the vertical well. If I could make a crack out from the well at that level and grow it out just a short way you can see that it already intersects two of the better joint sets, whereas at the beginning the well didn’t reach any. And if we could do this from the horizontal well and grow that crack out a goodly distance horizontally, then it would intersect a lot of the vertical fractures and production would become high and useful.

There are, however, three snags to forming and growing that crack, all solvable, but all costing additional money. The first is that if we just grow the crack out and then let the weight of the overlying rock close it up again, then we haven’t made a whole lot of difference. So we have to prop the crack open. For this we need to inject relatively fine grained particles (let’s call it sand, though the technical term is proppant) into the crack in enough quantity that it will fill up the crack and hold it open so that it gives an easy path through the rock to the well for the OG. (We won’t go into what a mess pumping sand at more than 10,000 psi makes of the pump – Halliburton gets paid very nicely to fix those problems).

The second snag is that trying to push sand into a thin crack and get it to go very far can be an exercise in futility. Among other things if you are using plain water the sand tends to settle to the bottom rather fast, and if it fills the crack near the well, it then acts as a filter to stop sand going back further into the slot. So now we change the chemistry of the water by adding what are usually known as long-chain polymers. These chemicals thicken the water so that it will (at relatively low chemical percentages) suspend the sand in the fluid. Because these molecules are also slippery (in another variety they are added to the water in crowd control water cannons to produce what is known as Banana Water – since it makes the street too slippery to stand on) they also reduce the friction between the fluid flow and the walls of the crack, and this also helps carry the sand further back into the crack, and gives the slickwater title to the hydrofrac.

The third snag is a bit more technical. You remember that earlier on I talked about the pressure about the hole causing the sides of the horizontal well to crush. Well at the top and bottom of the well instead of the rock seeing this additional crushing pressure, the shifting of the vertical load to the walls of the hole, can mean that the rock will go into tension, where it is much weaker. As a result cracks can appear in the top and bottom of the horizontal hole. Why is this a problem? Because the easy way to cause a fracture to grow is to fill the well with liquid and increase the pressure of the liquid until the rock breaks. (Hence hydraulic fracture or hydrofrac). But if there is a crack there already then just increasing the pressure in the hole causes that crack to grow. And if the crack is vertical then it won’t grow in the horizontal direction we want. And so it is time to call in the engineers (who also don’t come cheap) to do the interesting things that cause the crack to grow in the right direction.

The benefits to all this for the Marcellus has been described by Engelder.

"Conservatively, we generally only consider 10 percent of gas in place as a potential resource," said Engelder. "The key, of course, is that the Marcellus is more easily produced by horizontal drilling across fractures, and until recently, gas production companies seemed unaware of the presence of the natural fractures necessary for magnifying the success of horizontal drilling in the Marcellus."

The U.S. currently produces roughly 30 trillion cubic feet of gas a year, and these numbers are dropping. According to Engelder, the technology exists to recover 50 trillion cubic feet of gas from the Marcellus, thus keeping the U.S. production up. If this recovery is realized, the Marcellus reservoir would be considered a Super Giant gas field. . . . . These fractures, referred to as J1 fractures by Engelder and Lash, run as slices from the northeast to the southwest in the Marcellus shale and are fairly close together. While a vertical well may cross one of these fractures and other less productive fractures, a horizontally drilled well aimed to the north northwest will cross a series of very productive J1 fractures.

You can see examples of the fracture patterns in the Marcellus here

The upfront money may give some pause to prospectors. A typical well that drills straight down to a depth of about 2,000 to 3,000 feet costs roughly $800,000.
But in the Marcellus Shale, Range and other companies hope a different kind of drilling might yield better results — one in which a well is dug straight down to depths of about 6,000 feet or more, before making a right angle to drill horizontally into the shale. That kind of well could cost a company $3 million to build, not counting the cost of leasing the land, Engelder said.

The company, in a December financial report, estimated that two horizontal wells are producing roughly 4.6 million cubic feet of gas per day. Tests on an additional three recently completed horizontal wells showed potential for a total of 12.7 million cubic feet of gas per day. Industry experts call those results promising.

The benefits have also been projected here.And while they may be considerable, it is only after the wells are in production, and not only initial flows, but also well lifetimes are established, that the true benefit will become apparent.

But until some solid, repeatable well data emerges, the Haynesville will remain more diamond in the rough than diamond ring. As BMO Capital Markets analyst Dan McSpirit rightly noted in a report last week: "The proof (of Haynesville economics) is in how the wells get drilled and the rates of return such operations yield." He added, "These are early innings. Lasting value creation should be revealed later in the game."

.

So there you have a brief explanation of how the new technology is slowing, though it won’t stop, the declining gas reserve in the United States, And so on to a couple of other items, for those who have survived this far.

I attended a talk on Global Warming this past week, by Richard Stegemeier a member of the National Academy of Engineering, who began by drawing a distinction between engineers and scientists, and noting that it is largely climate scientists that have been involved in the publications of the IPCC. He was somewhat cynical about the cherry-picking of data that those scientists had used to try and buttress their arguments (citing for example the major retreat of the Glacier at Glacier Bay National Park, which had its most significant fraction before the GHG concentrations began to increase, and in some parts is now advancing ), but, in the main, (and why I mention it) he came back to the same points that Dave Rutledge has given here, namely that by about 2050 the fossil fuels that are currently considered to be causing Climate Change will have been used up, so the dramatic predictions that are made for global doom are more than a little unrealistic since, by the time of 2100, when the projections usually predict that there will be serious global flooding because of these GHGs, the world will, in actuality be some 50 years beyond the time that any of the current suspects will still be in significant use. As those of you who read these notes may remember I think that Dave is a bit of a pessimist when it comes to the size of the ultimate coal reserve, but with a decline rate of 4% for oil I was moved to comment at the presentation that it reflected the views of an almost incredible optimist.

But he did give an interesting view on ethanol (corn based) that I had not considered before. It went something like this:
The average person will purchase around 400 gallons of gas for their car in a typical year. To replace this with ethanol will require purchase of around 600 gal. To produce that amount of ethanol the farmer will have used about 300 gal in growing and harvesting the corn needed for the entire amount; it will then take some 3100 gallons of ethanol to carry out the distillation required, and the some 250 gallons to carry out the distribution of the ethanol to the service stations. Total ethanol required to give the average driver a year’s worth of fuel – 5,300 gallons.

(Small caveat – these are his numbers and I haven’t checked them).

And if you have stuck with me so far, a rather humorous story, at least as far as the London Times was concerned on Sunday. It is, in their opinion, the world’s worst wind farm .

If what you say is true about fossil fuels, we need to go full speed ahead on renewables. If what you say is untrue, we need to go full speed ahead on renewables. Either way, we need to accelerate the introduction of renewables in order to deal with FF shortages or an abundance of fossil fuels. Of course it would help if we had better priorities, less attuned to perpetual war and more attuned to using energy resources that are more amendable to peaceful cooperation.

There will be no oil or coal for peace program; there will only be fighting over whatever is left. Forward thinking and acting could actually enable a certain reasonable level of survival, maybe not the abundance we are used to but a tolerable living nonetheless.

And by the way, we can start by cutting back on our energy use; it is not really that difficult with a little bit of commitment. Nothing really fancy is necessary, for example, to cut one's electricity use by 25% with the right appliances, clothes lines, CFLs, conservation habits, power strips, etc.

"I attended a talk on Global Warming this past week, by Richard Stegemeier a member of the National Academy of Engineering, who began by drawing a distinction between engineers and scientists, and noting that it is largely climate scientists that have been involved in the publications of the IPCC".

Holy cow. There are climate scientists and not Oil CEOs on the IPCC. I cannot believe how misleading your statements are. This article is ridiculous. I don't know why you want to start this conversation on TOD but you have. Glaciers are retreating all of the world and you just cherry picked some data.

"Glaciers are retreating all of the world and you just cherry picked some data."

Absolutely false. Antarctic ice is the largest extent it's been in 50 years, some 40% more ice extent. Tabet glaciers are increasing, so too are glaciers in South America. There's some 3500 glaciers around the world, the alarmists are looking at only a small handfull of them and extrapolating.

I have worked in scientific (not climate) research for a few years now. If anybody on one of my teams was being dishonest, I would blow the whistle and so would most folks in this line of work. I've looked at the research papers and the overwhelming consensus is that climate change is real. If you would like to post a peer-reviewed link...

Show me the peer reviewed links that all the world's glaciers are shrinking.

Antarctica:
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Wilkins_Fracture_Barely_A_Blip_in_the_Bi...

"Mountain glaciers and snow cover on average have
declined in both hemispheres."

--IPCC Fourth Assessment Report

The IPCC is not peer reviewed. Sources from science journals or other publications that shows each one that is shrinking, how long it has been shrinking (before the 1900's?).

If the world is warming ice can be expected to melt and the water run into the sea and also if the oceans warm they expand - so, if the world warms the sea level will rise.

Is the sea level rising? A simple question, what is the answer?

Yes, it is rising, but you are about to find out things are not what you have been led to believe.

Here is the change in sea level for the past 20,000 years:

For the past 8,000 years:

(From http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Sea_Level_Gallery)

Now for the past 110 years:

Notice the flat rate of 0.19 feet/century. (From http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends_global_station.shtml?...)

Recent article:

GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 34, L01602, doi:10.1029/2006GL028492, 2007

On the decadal rates of sea level change during the twentieth century

S. J. Holgate

Proudman Oceanographic Laboratory, Liverpool, UK

Abstract
Nine long and nearly continuous sea level records were chosen from around the world to explore rates of change in sea level for 1904–2003. These records were found to capture the variability found in a larger number of stations over the last half century studied previously. Extending the sea level record back over the entire century suggests that the high variability in the rates of sea level change observed over the past 20 years were not particularly unusual. The rate of sea level change was found to be larger in the early part of last century (2.03 ± 0.35 mm/yr 1904–1953), in comparison with the latter part (1.45 ± 0.34 mm/yr 1954–2003). The highest decadal rate of rise occurred in the decade centred on 1980 (5.31 mm/yr) with the lowest rate of rise occurring in the decade centred on 1964 (−1.49 mm/yr). Over the entire century the mean rate of change was 1.74 ± 0.16 mm/yr.

Received 17 October 2006; accepted 21 November 2006; published 4 January 2007.

Recent Satelite data:


(From http://sealevel.jpl.nasa.gov/science/invest-nerem.html)

The IPPC forth report says there has been no, repeat NO, accelaration in the rate of sea level change. Yet they predict more than the current rate. Why has there not been any change in the rate yet? How much must that change be? Well, 3 to 4 TIMES the current rate to match the IPCC predictions, 30-40 TIMES to make Gore's 20ft prediction. Thus the graph would have to look like this:

So all the hype about radical sea level changes has not occured yet, read below on the islands in the Pacific too.

So, you agree - overall the world is warming - the sea level proves it - change IS happening. If the temperatures are changing that means climate is too. Clearly from your charts this is normal even without man's actions.

What is not normal is burning of fossil fuels (that have taken millions of years to accumulate) in a few tens of years - this causes a massive discontinuity in C02 levels and it is MAN MADE, so it is avoidable - any climate changes resulting from this will likely be discontinuous also and, by implication, avoidable.

Because of inertia you would never expect to see simmultaneous cause and effect - there WILL always be a time lag.

The sea level is a proxy for AVERAGE temperature change and because of the huge bulk of the Oceans there is massive inertia - near the North pole where we see the normal (self limiting, due to the curvature of the Earth) positive feedback from melting sea ice the temperature changes (and climate changes) are way more than average - this implies that elsewhere the changes will be less than average (where glaciers are not retreating? ... the South Pole?)

However, few places have zero change in temperature and hence zero change in climate.

History tells us to expect climate change, it is not change that is the potential problem but RATE of change.

So this then begs the question, when will the rate of sea level start to accelarate? If all these glaciers are melting, and have been because of AGW of some 20-30 years now, why has that water flow into the seas not increased the rate of rise? It also begs the question, if this lack of rise, if it continues flat, kill AGW theory?

So realize what you are saying. You are saying that there is no sea level rise at the moment that is caused by AGW. Thus all the media reports, all the hype about the CURRENT sea level rise is flat wrong right? You can't have it both ways. If the current trend is flat and, as you claim, the change in the rate is yet to come, then the current rate CANNOT be from AGW. Thus all the hype that it is from AGW must be wrong. By your own admission.

Sea level doesn't change on a dime. It is probably the slowest acting effect of global warming.

If you do look more closely at the recent data (the last 100 years or so), the sea level rise is accelerating, though quite modestly. At this point it's nothing terrible, but it does have the potential to become much worse.

Did you not read the abstract?

"Extending the sea level record back over the entire century suggests that the high variability in the rates of sea level change observed over the past 20 years were not particularly unusual. The rate of sea level change was found to be larger in the early part of last century (2.03 ± 0.35 mm/yr 1904–1953), in comparison with the latter part (1.45 ± 0.34 mm/yr 1954–2003). The highest decadal rate of rise occurred in the decade centred on 1980 (5.31 mm/yr) with the lowest rate of rise occurring in the decade centred on 1964 (−1.49 mm/yr). "

And you have a reference to back up your claim it won't turn on a dime, and you have a reference that it will become much worse. And you fully agree then that the current rise, in spite of Gore and others, is NOT currently from AGW. Right?

I don't know what the future will be and neither do the IPCC researchers - or you! Not least because nobody knows what all the variables and feedbacks are.

The climate research gives probabilities not certainties - if you are looking for certainty you won't get it. The data the IPCC and others use is statistical and has error bars, it is not 100% accurate and you need to take lenghty periods of time (decades) to get a feel for what is happening. The statistics are not as accurate as you think they are (nor are the IEA and EIA oil statistics, on a month by month basis!)

Is there climate change? ... yes! North Polar ice melting more and more for one good example! Will the climate of some parts of the world change adversely in the future ... Yes!

Is man responsible for part of the change? ... yes! How big a part? ... nobody knows! The historical temperature data does not go up in straight lines during warming periods and it won't do now - just because the temperature is not doing what you think it should for AGW does not mean there is no AGW due to fossil fuel burning.

Is man's use of fossil fuel, horizantle drilling, non-organic farming, overfishing etc etc sustainable ... NO!

Peak oil, peak food, peak population and peak pensions are just a few of the unsustainable challenges besides anthopogenic climate change facing man.

BAU means an uncertain world - get used to it.

Richard is just trying to bamboozle you by changing the plot scales. The sea level rise is accelerating and he has already been corrected on this point on this list.

Chris

Then you better tell the IPCC as their 2001 report says: “No significant acceleration in the rate of sea level rise during the 20th century has been detected.” The 2007 report says: "Global average sea level rose at an average rate of 1.8 [1.3 to 2.3] mm per year over 1961 to 2003. The rate was faster over 1993 to 2003: about 3.1 [2.4 to 3.8] mm per year. Whether the faster rate for 1993 to 2003 reflects decadal variability or an increase in the longer-term trend is unclear."

Include in your letter to the IPCC a copy to Holgate from the above reference I cited.

Interesting, Chris, you did not provide a reference. Please do so. How much is the change in the rate? You did not say.But I do have references that shows it has NOT changed From:
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/09/22/unbelievably-d...

Global sea level has been rising for the 10,000 years since the last ice age, and no significant change to the rate of sea level rise has been observed recently. Real studies and model studies of sea level change deny the untrue assertions in the article. And there are far, far too many such studies for me to cite them all. So, I provide the following as examples.

Church, J.A., White, N.J., Coleman, R., Lambeck, K. and Mitrovica, J.X. 2004. Estimates of the regional distribution of sea level rise over the 1950-2000 period. Journal of Climate 17: 2609-2625.

Cazenave, A. and Nerem, R.S. 2004. Present-day sea level change: observations and causes. Reviews of Geophysics 42: 10.1029/2003RG000139.

Lombard, A., Cazenave, A., Le Traon, P.-Y. and Ishii, M. 2005. Contribution of thermal expansion to present-day sea-level change revisited. Global and Planetary Change 47: 1-16.

Jevrejeva, S., Grinsted, A., Moore, J.C. and Holgate, S. 2006. Nonlinear trends and multiyear cycles in sea level records. Journal of Geophysical Research 111: 10.1029/2005JC003229.

In the above references, Church et al. say their "best estimate" of the rate of globally-averaged sea level rise over the last half of the 20th century was 1.8 ± 0.3 mm/year. In addition, they noted that "decadal variability in sea level is observed, but to date there is no detectable secular increase in the rate of sea level rise over the period 1950-2000." What is more, they reported that no increase in the rate of sea level rise has been detected for the entire 20th century, citing the work of Woodworth (1990) and Douglas (1992).

More refs:
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2008/01/04/lowering-sea-leve...
(Kolker, A. S., and S. Hameed. 2007. Meteorologically driven trends in sea level rise. Geophysical Research Letters, 34, L23616, doi:10.1029/2007GL031814.)

http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2007/09/14/sea-level-slowdow...

Wöppelmann et al. note that “two important problems arise when using tide gauges to estimate the rate of global sea-level rise. The first is the fact that tide gauges measure sea level relative to a point attached to the land which can move vertically at rates comparable to the long-term sea-level signal. The second problem is the spatial distribution of the tide gauges, in particular those with long records, which are restricted to the coastlines”. The records that we do have contain any number of inhomogeneities related to observer and instrument changes – the IPCC estimates of sea-level rise may be even less accurate that we are led to believe.
...
OK – here’s the bottom line. When Wöppelmann et al. factored their measurements of land motion into the estimate of sea-level rise, they determined a global value of 1.31 ±0.30 mm per year compared to the 1.8±0.5 mm per year value given by the IPCC for the recent half century. We understand that the IPCC acknowledges a low-end value of 1.3 mm per year in their estimate, but another way to look at this article is that Wöppelmann et al. just reduced observed sea-level rise by 27%! Perhaps the IPCC should reconsider whether they still have high confidence that the rate of sea level rise has in fact increased from the 19th to the 20th century.

Of course, these results gained absolutely no press coverage whatsoever – imagine the coverage they would have received had their results increased sea-level rise by 27% and suggested that sea level rise was occurring faster then previous research indicated!

Wöppelmann, G., B. Martin Miguez, M.-N. Bouin, and Z. Altamimi. 2007. Geocentric sea-level trend estimates from GPS analyses at relevant tide gauges world-wide. Global and Planetary Change, 57, 396–406.

Richard,

it is not possible to debate with you because you do not do so in good faith on this issue. As a simple exampe, you ask for references and links from me now when you know that I have already demonstrated your contention to be false here on TOD.

Chris

I post references, even if i have to do it several times. If it is false that sea level has not changed its rate then SHOW US!! How difficult can it be to get a ref and post it? None! So do it, back up your claim with one reference.

I have already shown by the references above that the rate of sea level rise has NOT changed. How on earth is that NOT on good faith?!

If there is any lack of good faith it's your claim that this is MY contention when all I have done is post the references, hence it is the conclusion of these researchers that there has not been any change in the rate. So go take your disagreement to them.

Dogmatism at its best again.

While you are at getting that reference, send it to this too, I'm sure they will be receptive to be shown by you that they are wrong.

http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

Did you actually read this chart or was this just another quick and dirty cut and paste job?

Just looking at the graph, sea level increased by 5 inches from 1850 to 1950. It increased by more than 6 inches from 1950 to just past 2000. The total increase appears to be greater in the latter 50 years than in the previous 100 years. The graph is misleading, as an absolute change in 50 years which is greater than an absolute change in 100 years can't have the same slope. The annotation "trend continues at same slope" appears to be wrong and could just be b.s. on your part.

So, no, this graph seems to show that you are wrong and supports others on this site arguing that you are wrong.

Perhaps you could draw the line from 1800 to compare 100 years with 100 years. But that would not support your conclusions.

Not to mention that last decade or so seems to be trending upwards.

Your 7 inches per century doesn't even make sense. Which century? Certainly not from 1800 to 1900. And from 1900 to 2000, it increased by 8 inches.

So, what is it about this graph that makes any sense and even remotely supports your conclusions?

Please stop blaming the messenger. If you have a problem with this graph, or anything I post with a reference, then take it up with them. This is not MY graph, this is the graph from that website. The point is the rate is not changing. To match the IPCC, to get that trend you would need, it would have to be 3 TIMES the current rate. As noted in the references I've posted before, the rate is not changing, it is fluctuating within normal ranges. If you have a reference that supports the notion that the rate has changed, please post it. If not, then the current hype that the changes in sea level is because of global warming must be wrong. Certainly the 19,000 scientists who added their names to this petition think AGW is wrong. Go contact them and show them they are misguided. http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm

So,now the new cop out is that we should go to your original source if you post stuff on this site that is mislabled and fails to support your position. No. If you are going to post here, you should defend your own data, not expect others to explain your data by going to your source.

You have chosen to be the messenger for those who think that global warming is a hoax. Then you post a graph that says the opposite of what you say about sea level rise and then ask me to not blame the messenger. If you don't want to be blamed, then quit posting info that says the opposite of what you purport to believe. As long as you keep posting stuff on this website that you use to support your position, then you should actually analyze your information to ensure that it says what you think it says.

In fact, you have posted a reference that actually indicates that the rate is changing. I assume you stand by your reference. So, thanks for providing a reference that shows that the rate of change is increasing.

But you are mixing two concepts. First, has the rate of sea level rise changed. It certainly appears that it has just from what you've posted here; never mind what other references are out there. Once we have determined that the rate has changed, the question becomes one of causation. According to your reference, the IPCC is not ready to state that they have enough data to confirm that the sea level rise is caused by global warming. As scientists, they are taking a conservative position and as, is typical of scientists, they are calling for further study, including more years of data. This is to be expected.

But one cannot conclude that AGW is not causing sea level rise just because scientists have not conclusively stated the opposite.

Don't ask us to contact your so called scientists. Either defend your positions with valid data or quit posting. Next time someone else posts here in support of AGW, should you be expected to contact the IPCC?

Or maybe you should. We here in Boulder have probably the greatest concentration of climate scientists in the world. Start with NCAR. Take the tour and talk to the scientists who actually were part of the IPCC. Argue with them. They can take everything you throw at them. I have seen them in action. But don't tell them to go contact one of your references if you are having problems arguing with them.

"In fact, you have posted a reference that actually indicates that the rate is changing. I assume you stand by your reference."

Yes I do stand with the data. It's saw toothed, did you not see the other 2 that has a higher rate for a while, then drops? This is just another of those saw tooth changes. In fact, again I refer you to the IPCC 2007 report about this very point: "Global average sea level rose at an average rate of 1.8 [1.3 to 2.3] mm per year over 1961 to 2003. The rate was faster over 1993 to 2003: about 3.1 [2.4 to 3.8] mm per year. Whether the faster rate for 1993 to 2003 reflects decadal variability or an increase in the longer-term trend is unclear. "

But you are missing the whole point. To get to the IPCC's 20 inches in 100 years would require a rate THREE TIMES the observed rate. You claim the IPCC is conservative, so too do people like Gore who wants 20 feet of rise, that's THIRTY TIMES the current rate! Others have thrown out even higher rates over shorter distances of time.

"But one cannot conclude that AGW is not causing sea level rise just because scientists have not conclusively stated the opposite." Nor can you claim the opposite then.

Bottom line: Is the current rate BECAUSE of AGW? Yes or no. If Yes, why has the rate not changed to the value it should under the predictions? If not then all the current hype on the MSM about the rise because of AGW is flat wrong. Which is it?

Richard - is it possible that the change in trend around 1860 marks the onset of melt following The Little Ice Age?

I'm surprised this thread is still going - its been very interesting. If you reply can you send me an email flagging the reply - since I may forget to come back here.

Euan

It certainly looks that way doesn't it. That was my first thought, but did not want to speculate.

Thanks Richard. Its too simple, isn't it?

I'm just back from X country skiing in Norway where on quiet evenings in the mountain cabins I read about the advance of Norwegian mountain glaciers during The Little Ice Age and about the sea ice apron that surrounded South Greenland - which no doubt was reflected by extended ice cap and glaciers on shore. I've also read about perma-frost inside excavated Greenland Norse settlements - pretty damned sure that permafrost wasn't there when the settlement was inhabited during the MWP.

Are you refering to me or the Warm Mongers? Because those are the VERY arguments I use to support the skeptical position!! There is nothing in what you said I would disagree with at all. Thank you for supporting my position.

The IPCC work is absolutely peer reviewed, much of from scientists at the worlds great universities. The idea that they would falsify their work and that others would collude is risible.

Nasa's GRACE program has measured ice sheet loss from Greenland over a period of at least 10 years; and the loss is accelerating.

There is also plenty of evidence of glacier loss, all over the world. There is also plenty of other evidence of warming so I am afraid climate change sceptics are beginning to look just a little bit silly, irrational even.

Another reader asks for evidence of rising sea levels. Check out the Carteret islands (Papua New Guinea) and Tuvalu (S. Pacific).

At the same time I understand and support Heading Outs comment on there being insufficient FF to raise CO2 levels by the amount the IPCC a warning us about. Unfortunately I am not sure that that matters. I think we have committed ourselves to sufficient global warming already (temperature inertia in the sea is holding back atmospheric warming) so temperatures will continue to rise causing massive dislocation and damage that is now inescapable.

That does not mean there is no point in working hard to reduce FF use, of course we must. We might just get lucky and only have PO to worry about!

"The IPCC work is absolutely peer reviewed, much of from scientists at the worlds great universities."

Here is a list of other scientists from the world’s great universities who do NOT accept the "consensus", this list is growing.

http://www.businessandmedia.org/specialreports/2007/globalwarming/Skepti...

And the papers in the IPCC report are not peer reviewed at all. They are written for the report and not subjected to other scrutiny before publication. In fact, the summaries are written first by non-scientists and then the scientists are told what to put in their reports to coincide with the summaries. This is not my wild accusation; this is a charge from the very scientists themselves who wrote for the IPCC.

"Another reader asks for evidence of rising sea levels. Check out the Carteret islands (Papua New Guinea) and Tuvalu (S. Pacific)."

Yes, you had better get up to date on this. Tuvalu has NOTHING to do with sea level rise and everything to do with over population and bad land practices. There's lots about this on the Net, simple google will find it.

"I think we have committed ourselves to sufficient global warming already (temperature inertia in the sea is holding back atmospheric warming) so temperatures will continue to rise causing massive dislocation and damage that is now inescapable."

What peer reviewed papers do you have to back up this "thought"?

http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html

this link shows how Co2 works.
so before you run around like chicken little, lets first look at
the basic facts of CO2.

soon to come is a new report.
from
http://aqua.nasa.gov/
so lets all wait before shouting like loons.

coming soon, and you wont be too pleased.

mr. neutral

Thanks for posting that nice summary of skepticism of AGW.

This is also good:

http://www.energypulse.net/centers/article/article_display.cfm?a_id=1598

"AGW is just such bad science at this time that I want nothing to do with it."

"In the AGW school of warming, the litany of one poor package of junk science after another - attempts at distortion, editing, hiding data, changing data (Hansen),