DrumBeat: June 26, 2008
Posted by Leanan on June 26, 2008 - 9:07am
Topic: Miscellaneous
Oil prices soar past $140 on OPEC, Libya comments
NEW YORK - Oil prices are soaring further into record territory, breaking past $140 a barrel after OPEC's president said prices could rise well above $150.Reports that Libya is considering cutting oil production are also sending prices higher.
Light, sweet crude for August delivery has traded as high as $140.05 on the New York Mercantile Exchange.
Libya May Cut Oil Output on U.S. Threat to its Assets
(Bloomberg) -- Libya, the holder of Africa's largest oil reserves, threatened to cut oil output in response to a U.S. law that allows terror victims to seize assets of foreign governments as compensation.
Mexico Cantarell oil field output falls again in May
MEXICO CITY, June 26 (Reuters) - Crude output from Mexico's struggling Cantarell oil field fell in May for the eighth month in a row to 1.038 million barrels per day, its lowest level in more than 12 years, Energy Ministry data showed on Thursday.The fading jewel of Mexico's oil industry, Cantarell has declined rapidly since 2004 and is pulling down overall oil production in the world's No. 6 oil-producing nation, threatening Mexico's status as a top supplier to the United States.
Brazil Oil Reserves to at Least Triple on New Finds, Lula Says
(Bloomberg) -- Brazil's President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said the country will at least triple its oil reserves from exploration of a new offshore area that includes the Western Hemisphere's largest discovery since 1976.
The grasp of BP on oil assets in Russia gets more tenuous
MOSCOW: The grasp of the British company BP on its extensive oil assets in Russia became more tenuous Thursday after its Russian partners said a general shareholders' meeting for BP's joint venture here had been held in violation of Russian law.The Russian partners said the board elected at that meeting was illegitimate. If upheld by a court, that stance could cripple BP's ability to manage its pumping assets and refineries in Russia.
Nigerian gunmen free 4 foreign oil workers - army
PORT HARCOURT, Nigeria (Reuters) - Nigerian gunmen have freed four foreign oil workers kidnapped in two separate incidents in the Niger Delta last month, a military spokesman said on Thursday.
John Michael Greer: The 'Silent Running' fallacy
It’s in this context that we can define the Silent Running fallacy; it’s the mistaken belief that human industrial civilization can survive apart from nature. It’s this fallacy that leads countless well-intentioned people to argue that nature is an amenity, and should be preserved because, basically, it’s cute. That sort of argument invites the response, just as stereotyped and more appealing to our culture’s governing narratives, that hard-headed practicality takes precedence over emotional appeals and nature can therefore be ravaged with impunity.Yet nature is not an amenity, and the “practicality” that leads current political and business leaders to ignore the disastrous consequences of their own actions doesn’t deserve the name. If anything, industrial civilization is the amenity, and it’s not particularly cute, either. Nature can survive without industrial humanity, but industrial humanity cannot survive without nature – no matter how hard we pretend otherwise, or how enthusiastically we stuff our brains with science fiction fantasies of electronic reincarnation and the good life in deep space.
McCain's Energy Plan: Correct Diagnosis, Killer Prescription
John McCain seems to have identified our energy problems accurately. But are his solutions equally laudable?June 26, 2008 - by Jérôme Guillet
With gas topping $4 per gallon and oil prices seemingly reaching new highs every week, more pain at the pump is certain in the foreseeable future, and energy policy is rightfully claiming its place as a major topic of the 2008 election. Indeed, John McCain gave a major campaign speech earlier this week in Houston specifically on energy (the full transcript can be found here) and addresses the issue again this week in Santa Barbara. It is worth looking in more detail at how he describes the current situation, and what he is proposing.
Note: the full version of this text, by our very own Jerome a Paris, will be posted in full on TOD over the week-end.
Pay Attention to Oil Decline Rates
We commonly hear that the reason oil prices have risen is rapid demand growth in developing countries, particularly China and India. But the decline of mature oil fields throughout the world is a much greater source of demand for new oil supplies than the growth of end user demand. It has been estimated by CERA that declining fields lose 4.5% of total oil production per year thus requiring about 3.9 mb/d of new oil each year for the global oil supply to stay the same. The growth in end user demand, on the other hand, varies from only the currently estimated 800 kb/d this year to about 1.5 mb/d in recent years, much less than the estimated 3.9 mb/d per year of declines. (Frankly, I’m not certain either the decline or the demand number is accurately known; I take all oil statistics as estimates at best.)
OPEC president: Oil could soon hit $170
Crude oil prices will likely rise to between $150 and $170 a barrel this summer, OPEC President Chakib Khelil was quoted as telling a French television station.
Iraqi Oil Workers' Union Threatens Strike to Block New Oil Law
(Bloomberg) -- The Iraq Federation of Oil Unions, which represents more than half the nation's oil workers, will consider striking to stop the passage of a national oil law.
High fuel prices have caused airfares to skyrocket. And the economy has caused some Americans to postpone or downsize their travel plans. Fewer tourists are coming to Hawaii, and some think the problems are only beginning.ATA and Aloha Airlines have already gone bust. And starting next week, two Japanese airlines will increase fuel surcharges on flights to Hawaii by 43%. American Airlines just announced plans to eliminate its Chicago-Honolulu route at the end of the year.
Singular Simplicity: The story of the Singularity is sweeping, dramatic, simple—and wrong
So on what do intelligent people base the idea that technological progress is moving faster than ever before? It’s simple: a chart of productivity from the dawn of humanity to the present day. It shows a line that inclines very gradually until around 1750, when it suddenly shoots almost straight up.But that’s hardly surprising. Since around 1750 the world has witnessed the spread of an economic system, by the name of capitalism, that is predicated on economic growth. And how the economy has grown since then! But surely the creation of new markets and the increasingly fine division of labor cannot be equated with technological progress, as every consumer knows.
Move over London and N.Y., there's a market shift going on
There are efforts to establish commodities markets in the Gulf and the Far East. Hong Kong has just announced plans to establish a fuel oil futures contract. Dubai Mercantile Exchange has already launched a sour crude futures contract with the help of Nymex, home to America's benchmark crude futures. Sour crude represents the majority of the world's oil and it is growing in dominance as the popular light, sweet crudes diminish in volume. The Dubai contract struggles to gain acceptance as Saudi Aramco is still unwilling to use it as a benchmark to price its own crude.There is little doubt, however, of the logic that suggests the focus of oil trading will shift to the main suppliers as North Sea and U.S. supplies begin to dwindle. It's a challenge for London and New York, and attempts by the U.S. Congress to strangle the trade in futures out of fear that speculators are manipulating the oil price is dangerous and naive.
American financial fiasco could take down world economy
Frankly, all financial institutions are in deep trouble, and the reason is the American dollar. The situation is so dire that it's not going to make a hoot of difference who becomes the next president of the United States: it's beyond the power of the rulers of the American political and economic system to curtail severe damage to its entire economic enterprise. Neither Obama nor McCain can do anything to stem the disaster that will be fully employed by the end of this year.Part of the cause is that the USA happens to be the most indebted nation on the planet and its people the least prepared to cope with peak oil and peak food. Even now Americans throw away up to 40 per cent of the food they buy, their high-powered and fuel-thirsty automotive park cannot be converted to more efficient vehicles for many years, while their exurban lifestyle makes car-sharing and mass transport impossible for most.
The link between oil and xenophobia
The problem is that our global economy can't function in the way it does currently with significantly less energy. To keep on growing, it requires more and more energy. The phenomenal growth we are seeing in India and China is keeping demand high.Over the last three years production has flattened while demand has risen sharply. Prices have reached all-time highs and we haven't yet started the decline in production.
The effects of rapidly rising oil prices have been varied and widespread. Oil permeates almost every sector and every country.
'Shortage psychology' driving oil prices up, analyst says
WASHINGTON — Growing global demand for oil and the fear of supply disruptions have created a "shortage psychology" that is helping keep fuel prices high, a leading energy analyst told Congress on Wednesday.Many speculators now are convinced the world is "running out of oil," energy expert Daniel Yergin told a Joint Economic Committee hearing. "As prices go up, this psychology becomes self-reinforcing," sending prices higher still - at least, until consumption patterns change dramatically.
New-car owners less satisfied with miles per gallon
DETROIT — Drivers of new cars were less satisfied with their vehicles this year for the first time in at least five years, due mainly to rising fuel prices, according to an annual survey released Thursday.
West Australia Says Gas Blast Cut Supply to Pilbara by 45%
(Bloomberg) -- Western Australia said the gas plant explosion that cut almost a third of the state's supplies has reduced deliveries of the fuel to the mining industry in the Pilbara region by 45 percent.
Australian Truck Drivers Protest Fuel Prices
Mathaba.Net - Australia's National Secretary of the Transport Workers Union (TWU), Tony Sheldon, addressing the media outside New Parliament House in Canberra, said that tens of thousands of truckers and small businesses face collapse due to the rising fuel prices.This affects safety on the road and the lack of government help means workers will have to work longer and harder. 228 lives should not have been lost due to deaths in the past year due to the pressures of rising fuel costs, he pointed out, and criticised the lack of "cost recovery" action by the Australian regime.
Nepal: Strike over fuel price hike paralyses Kathmandu valley
Life in the Kathmandu valley came to a standstill Thursday as four minor parties jointly called for a shutdown to protest the hike in fuel prices.
Alberta ignores U.S. oil critics at its peril
There was a time when being Alberta's man in Washington D.C. involved golf rounds and cocktail circuits of non-stop fun.As America's most reliable energy supplier, the province rated a red-carpet reception in a national capital thirsting for secure oil. Not any more.
Analysis: Americans may hold a key to gas prices
WASHINGTON — A decline in Americans' demand for gasoline is keeping record prices from skyrocketing even further, a USA TODAY analysis of gas and oil prices shows.The price of crude oil has nearly doubled in the past year, while gas has risen in the U.S. by about one-third, according to statistics kept by the Energy Information Administration. Oil prices are being driven up by rising demand in developing nations. But U.S. drivers have cut back, causing a 1% drop in demand for gas this year compared with the same period in 2007. That has forced refiners and retailers in the U.S. to reduce their profit margins.
"Whenever you look at $4 gas, you feel to some degree that you're being taken advantage of," says Eric Wittenauer, a Wachovia Securities energy futures analyst. "Unfortunately, it could actually be worse."
If the price of oil remains high, we may see drastic changes to America's cities, economy and way of life.
World Economy Would Collapse If Oil Hit $200, Deutsche Says
(Bloomberg) -- The global economy would collapse if oil hit $200 a barrel, said the top energy analyst at Germany's largest bank.``Two-hundred dollar oil would break the back of the global economy,'' Deutsche Bank AG's Chief Energy Economist Adam Sieminski said in an interview today in Tokyo. ``Next step after $200 would be global recession and bad news for everybody.''
Americans, Hurt by Rising Gas Prices, Curb Spending
(Bloomberg) -- Most Americans say they are feeling the pain from rising gasoline prices and many are tightening their belts in response, a Bloomberg/Los Angeles Times survey shows.``It costs me double to fill up the tank,'' says J.L. Harder, a 75-year-old retiree and poll respondent in Peoria, Texas. ``We don't go on vacation and don't visit the relatives.''
He isn't alone. Seven in 10 of those surveyed say higher gas prices have caused them ``financial hardship.'' More than 1 in 3 respondents say they have cut back on their spending over the last six months as oil and food prices surged and
Tokyo Electric May Post Bigger Loss on Fuel Costs, Shimizu Says
(Bloomberg) -- Tokyo Electric Power Co., forced to shut the world's biggest nuclear plant, may post a wider first- half loss than the utility had forecast as fuel costs soar.``With the closure of our Kashiwazaki Kariwa nuclear plant, we're in the most difficult phase ever,'' Masataka Shimizu, who took over as the company's president today, said in an interview in Tokyo. ``We will be hard-pressed to achieve the earnings targets we've announced.''
Japan govt to help fishermen pay soaring fuel bills
TOKYO (Reuters) - The Japanese government hammered out steps on Thursday to help businesses and individuals cope with soaring energy prices, including footing some fuel costs for the fishing industry.Soaring oil prices have led to protests across Asia and Europe, and the threat of a strike by Japanese fishermen has highlighted the impact on the nation's already struggling small to mid-sized companies.
Major turbulence ahead for airlines

New York - America's aviation system could be at risk of collapsing by the beginning of next year.That warning from aviation experts has prompted some industry leaders to call for re-regulation, something considered almost heresy until now. Others are urging Washington to do more to rein in the oil speculators pushing up fuel costs.
Fuel costs drive bus company out of school contract
A major bus company is walking away from a five-year contract with Nova Scotia's Acadian school board, blaming high fuel prices.
High fuel prices put brakes on indie band tours
For months, the 23-year-old singer-guitarist had been budgeting money and booking show dates for Something Fierce's third tour, but skyrocketing gas prices have put the brakes on those plans."Once I ran the numbers, it was a 'there's no (expletive) way' kind of moment," Garcia said. After much hand-wringing and grumbling from bookers who'd scheduled the band to play, Garcia canceled the tour.
New faces join ranks of nation's homeless
Those facing homelessness include the working poor, who were among those hardest hit by the collapse in subprime mortgages. But others are middle-class families who scarcely expected to find themselves unable to afford their homes....In addition to foreclosures, other factors are driving families to the edge of homelessness: mounting utility bills, the surge in gas prices and the rise in unemployment, which jumped from 5% to 5.5% in May, the government reported. Often, those factors make it harder for families to afford their mortgages — especially for those who bought homes with adjustable-rate mortgages that have reset to higher rates.
Thieves target farm diesel supplies as prices soar
LORENZO, Texas (AP) — With the price of diesel skyrocketing, farmers and ranchers around the country are being targeted by ne'er-do-wells armed with syphon hoses and pumps.Sheldon Wilder, who owns a cotton gin 30 miles east of Memphis, Tenn., has endured worse already. Twice in two weeks, he had diesel drained from saddlebag tanks on a truck at his gin. The second time the thieves left the hoses loose and what diesel they didn't steal drained out onto the ground.
Highway deaths down in 35 states
Harsha says high gasoline prices discouraging some Americans to drive might be a factor in the decline of fatalities, but it's "premature" to draw that conclusion. Other factors might be stronger laws for seat-belt use and stepped-up enforcement, she says.Some police officials attribute the decline to fewer vehicles on the roads. "Although I have no data that would clearly indicate this, I do believe part of our reduction in traffic collisions and deaths can be attributed to fewer miles being driven," says Capt. Curtis Henderson of the Iowa State Patrol. "I think that the only explanation for that kind of decline across the country is fewer vehicle miles traveled."
Agencies brace for higher fuel costs
It's not just home owners looking ahead to a hard winter because of high heating oil prices. The Central Vermont Community Land Trust, which owns 372 units of affordable housing and manages almost all of them, is expecting a huge budget crunch this winter.And that's going to mean rent increases.
Drivers mixing ethanol with gas to save money
Auto manufacturers warn that ethanol can corrode fuel lines and damage hoses, seals and the fuel pump in cars not made to carry ethanol. That can lead to bad gas mileage, poor performance and may even affect the vehicle computers that warn of problems.The EPA says it can damage emission control devices.
Yet with the price for a gallon of gas hitting a string of record highs this year, motorists are paying little heed, even at the risk of voiding their warranties.
America's seemingly never-ending demand for oil appears to be abating as a direct result of the surge in prices.Data from the US Department of Energy revealed a large build-up in oil inventories in the last seven days, knocking more than $5 off the price of a barrel of oil at one stage.
Speculating on why oil, gasoline prices are soaring
Severin Borenstein, director of the UC Energy Institute, said Congress and some members of the media had spent considerable time theorizing about the role fund managers have played in driving up oil prices."The theories may have some initial appeal," he said, "but then they run headlong into some difficult realities."
British prime minister calls for investing billions to reduce dependence on oil
LONDON: Prime Minister Gordon Brown has called for Britain to invest 100 billion pounds (US$200 billion; €128 billion) to reduce its dependence on oil.Brown says the government proposes investing that amount of money over a dozen years to develop more renewable energy sources and to find ways of living and working more efficiently.
Libya May Cut Oil Output as Market Is Oversupplied, Ghanem Says
(Bloomberg) -- Libya may cut oil production because the market is oversupplied, the nation's top oil official said.``We are also weighing such a move because of the threats and intimidation against OPEC,'' National Oil Corp. Chairman Shokri Ghanem said in a telephone interview today from Tripoli. ``We have to protect our interests.''
From this it can be seen that Saudi oil production and net exports peaked in 2005, while domestic production steadily increased. In fact, net exports reduced by 10.5% in the two year period 2005-2007, of which a reduction of 6.7% occurred in 2007.Net exports in 2005 were 9.223 million barrels per day, 8.848 million barrels per day in 2006 reducing to 8.269 million barrels per day in 2007.
The most dangerous form of Peak Oil
The oil-rich peoples of the Middle East long believed their oil reserves to be unlimited. During the past decade they slowly realized their error, the “Bedouin to Bedouin over five generations scenario.” This insight changed the world. Consider their choice: after pumping enough oil to meet expenses, is it better to pump more and invest the surplus - or leave it in the ground for future generations? The latter looks like the superior bet, given the inevitable peaking of oil and the paucity of potential substitutes over the next few generations.
Province gives cold shoulder to energy-saving AC program
Across Toronto, 40,000 homeowners have volunteered to let Toronto Hydro shut down their air conditioners for short periods on very hot days to conserve scarce power.There's just one problem, says chief executive Dave O'Brien: No one has ever asked Toronto Hydro to put the system to use.
..."Never been asked to do it," O'Brien said. "We've never once been called ... to activate our system in lieu of going to buy coal-fired power on the spot market."
China wind power capacity growing
BEIJING (Reuters) - China's installed wind power generating capacity is expected to top 10 gigawatts (GW) by the end of this year and to exceed 20 GW in two years, far above government targets, the official Xinhua News Agency said.
I am a bit of a techno-optimist. I believe that scientists and engineers provide part of our solution paths forward. I believe (know) that there are tremendous things being developed in laboratories and garages around the world that will help us (the US) deal with the challenges we face. Yet (that "but"), I am weary of leaping upon the latest news, the item from the laboratory, the newest press release that screams "PROBLEM SOLVED" because, for whatever reasons, those miraculous answers all too often head back to the laboratory, turn out to be more difficult and costly than first described, and end up doing less than imagined.
We can feed the world: look at all the space
It's no wonder food prices are rising. We are exploiting less of the planet for agriculture than we were only a few years ago.
Obama adds to oil sands pressure
OTTAWA — Canada's oil sands producers are facing new pressures to slash their greenhouse gas emissions, with the latest salvo coming from the campaign of Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic U.S. presidential nominee.
U.S. not on board for 2050 emissions cut goal - source
Japan has yet to persuade the United States to agree to a global goal of cutting greenhouse gas emissions by 50 percent by 2050 at next month's G8 leaders' summit, a Japanese government source said on Thursday, raising the prospect of a diplomatic failure for Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda.
California unveils ambitious climate plan
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - California on Thursday took a major step forward on its global warming fight by unveiling an ambitious plan for clean cars, renewable energy and stringent caps on big polluting industries.The plan, which aims to reduce pollutants by 10 percent from current levels by 2020 while driving investment in new energy technologies that will benefit the state's economy, is the most comprehensive yet by any U.S. state.
Ex-EPA official critical on climate change
WASHINGTON - A high-ranking political appointee resigned from the Environmental Protection Agency after concluding there was no more progress to be made on greenhouse gases under the Bush administration.



Declining Russian Oil Production Could Lead to $200 Oil and “Global Recession,” Says Deutsche Bank
There has been considerable discussion on this list as to what $300, $400 or $500 oil would do to the economy. Perhaps we do not need to get that high before we create a global recession, perhaps $200 oil would do it. And of course a global recession would kill enough demand to keep oil from going any higher…for awhile.
The problem would be, of course, that we would never come out of that recession because the supply of oil would never increase. Global oil supply will continue to gradually decrease. And the global recession will simply get a little worse each year until it is a full scale depression. And the recession will get a little worse each year until it turns into a complete global meltdown, a total collapse of the world as we know it.
Of course that is the best case scenario. It may not be gradual. Hoarding and warfare may cause the decline in oil supplies to be rather dramatic instead of gradual. In that case the collapse would be sudden and dramatic rather than gradual.
Ron Patterson
Very soon after learning about Peak Oil, I came to the realization you just summarized. Expensive oil (whether technically peak or not) will put the breaks on the world economy. However, even if demand is reduced, depletion continues, so any equilibrium point will only be temporary until it is eroded by depletion and the decline continues. Any atttempt at recovery will kick up demand, which will kick up prices and strangle the recovery.
I think this will happen to a greater or less extent, even if we're successful at developing alternatives. Alternatives will take time and money, and both are going to be hard to come by. The transition is going to be painful.
We do, however, have a lot of control over how painful it is going to be. I'm just not very optimistic that we will do the right things as a society. I'm pretty sure we'll panic and make the problem worse, maybe a lot worse. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm trying to be prepared for the worst.
This is partly why I have always favoured power-down scenarios (having less children to achieve smaller populations, working towards low energy life-styles, etc (note: that does not mean anti-technology or not using technology as some people seem to get fixated on with power-down talk)).
Every time we try to find alternatives to power and supply raw material for BAU, we will be strangled by the continuing depletion and erosion of the very system upon which we DEPEND for survival. As one article above notes, we are not separate from our environment. The techno-fix ideas always come across as very simplistic, and seem to willfully fail to take into account the complexity of the systems that drive our economies...
I am in favour of many technophile ideas, but only if they are not being touted to keep BAU ticking along in what appears to be an unrealistic and deluded way.
The problem with this Deutsche Bank release, like so many similar, is the two zeroes.
Because it means that they have no idea what price the market will sustain before collapse. If they had a model to feed $200 into, and analyse the results, they could ask the model about $190 and $180 as well.
Whether the motivation is name recognition for Adam Sieminski, 'advertising' for the bank, or some sort of market influence, I have no idea.
What it's NOT about, is the bank having any idea how the market will react - the two zeroes prove that much, at least.
Thanks for pointing out what is not obvious to many-these are advertisements for Deutsche Bank.
Jaymax, everything is just an estimate. All Deutsch Bank can possibly hope to do is just get it in the ballpark. If Deutsch Bank said something like "$205 oil will cause a worldwide recession" we wood whoop to the high heavens and ask "how can they be that precise?" We all realize that the $200 figure is just a wild ass guess. We all know they really mean "somewhere around $200 oil will cause a worldwide recession".
Come on, quit nitpicking and give them a break. I appreciate the estimate even if they cannot be precise.
Ron Patterson
Hmmm, I disagree - I think they pretended to provide information, which doesn't entitle them to a break - but anyhow - this is much less interesting than the remainder of your post which it triggered, so I shall shut up anyhow :-)
Whilst oil is at the highest price it is still not as high as the previous oil shock when compared to GDP of the world. To reach that it would have to go to about $195 and of course then we had a pretty serious recession. Of course supplies of oil increased soon afterwards which they probably won't this time round.
"People will wonder why every new recession is a little worse than the previous one"
Richard Heinberg in "the end of suburbia".
BTW, I see an upbeat in war retoric towards Iran.
"President George Bush intensified the rhetoric against Iran last week, accusing Tehran of putting the Middle East “under the shadow of a nuclear holocaust”. He warned that the US and its allies would confront Iran “before it is too late”."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article2369001.ece
"THE US military chief is to meet his Israeli counterpart in Tel Aviv this week in a move that gives new impetus to speculation about a pre-emptive strike against Iran's nuclear capabilities.
Tensions were further heightened by a suggestion from former US ambassador to the UN John Bolton that the US and Israel could attack Iraq's fledgling program between the time a new president was nominated in November and the date the incumbent, George W. Bush, left office in January. "
(That should not read Iraq, but maybe they copy-pasted from early 2003)
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23917181-2703,00.html
"The trip has been scheduled for some time but U.S. officials say it comes just as the Israelis are mounting a full court press to get the Bush administration to strike Iran's nuclear complex."
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/06/24/eveningnews/main4206201.shtml
My, oh my! Let's hope George Dubya isn't too caught up in the 2008 holiday spirit. What a nice Hanukkah present to the Israelis and office warming Christmas gift to a new administration. Then again, if the general public is miffed over the dearth of sugar plums and play stations and SUVs under the yule tree b/c of struggles to pay fuel and transportation costs (if they have a place to live at all?) then what a wonderful light display to keep everyone festive and amused.
All cynicism aside, though, I don't think the US will attack Iran despite Ahmadinejad's rhetoric, the neo-cons ambitions, or Israeli anxieties. Yes, George Dubya may want to be remembered as a courageous war president who faced down America's enemies, but I suspect even he knows that this action would be a deadly genie for everybody, including Americans. Posterity is likely looming larger in the President's sights these days.
I hope, here, reason will prevail.
The US doesn't have to bomb Iran, Isreal has said they will. Just a matter of timing .
If Israel bombs Iran, Iran will launch various attacks conventional and unconventional near and far. At that point the US will have to bomb Iran.
Israel is a state of the US isn't it? I mean they will be bombing Iran with US Funded US built planes what the difference?
So by that logic, Iraq and Afghanistan are states of the US. We gave them weapons too.
If they were a state they would pay taxes. Israel is a very great net liability to the US.
I believe they pay us through intelligence information!
they are a co dependent state. we give them a billion of arm's and financial aid. while they keep the arab world divided so we can get cheap oil.
It is painfully obvious that what is about to happen on the macropolitical scene is of Biblical proportions. I am not one to blame any particular individual, like all of these demagogues on talk radio blaming everyone from the current Chief Executive to Rosie ODonnell; No, we are all to blame on this one. The grace period on payments for our profligate lifestyles is just about up and the only thing that will help us through this unprecedented period of time will be faith and hope. Faith that God will see us through it, and hope in the coming Kingdom of God that every human being will hear about before the end comes. It will not be by might or power that we will justify ourselves - that mistake is a constant axiom of history - it will be by the Spirit of God, if I may be aloud to say so.
"...Faith that God will see us through it,..."
IMO thats what got us into this mess, what allowed us to rape the planet, allowed us to forsake nature, indeed provided the mandate to over power, subdue, conquer nature.
Placing faith in God in light of what's about to come down will guarantee that the wrong paths will be followed.
Strip yourselves naked (metaphorically) and succumb to NATURE or NATURE will take care of you, but not in a nice way.
It's not nice to fool Mother Nature
Cheers!
Cool it on the rant, souperman2. For you, faith (trust) in humanity and reason may offer the best path to solutions ahead. Fair enough. Please bear in mind, however, that faith in God and the use of reason are not always estranged bedfellows. Some of the best minds in human history have been attached to very devote people. Intelligence and religious expression need not be seen as mutually exclusive.
Collectively, whether religiously minded or disengaged, we've all had a share in enjoying the benefits of the fossil fuel age. The pending fall-out from our over-indulgence and cavalier attitude towards nature could very well be severe. But how best we will be able to face that severity, even in a worse case scenario, will depend upon how well we treat one other. Our personal survival could well depend upon neighbourly values, order and decency. The best in human beings: love, gentleness, kindness, self-control, generosity, honesty, may in the end prove to be invaluable. Many people see these things as divine gifts.
Secularists, regardless of background, do not have a monopoly on virtue. Atheists can be as obdurate, narrow-minded, and zealous in their treatment of others and as blinded to wise decision-making as anyone else. It doesn't matter if you're an Osama Bin Laden, an Ian Paisley, a Stalin, or a Robespierre, the result is the same. Fanaticism can show itself in many forms and in many guises.
Meanwhile there are devote people everywhere who are keenly aware that humanity has much to answer for in its stewardship of creation.
My final thought. All the power to you as you place your hope in the faculty of reason and common sense. But to others, if faith in God will see you through this, then all the power to you too. Respect is a good first step in building and bridging those relationships that we many come to count on.
Right on, Souperman2.
Zadoc seems an excellent guy and a smart poster, but since he has asked you to cool your rant, I'll ask you not to. Thus do i refute the up and down arrows.
Human delusional thinking and ability to rationalize anything that feels good has laid waste to the planet, and this continues apace. Airing one's delusions makes them fair game for comment.
And if you want anyone to listen to you about anything, first, they have to respect you. A belief that telling someone they are delusional is somehow going to help, is considerably more delusional than the very beliefs you are attacking.
At the very least the delusion that treating someone's belief as 'fair game' is likely to somehow influence those beliefs can much more easily be shown to be a delusion than the beliefs attacked, and is therefore less rational.
I stand by my up-arrow :-)
EDIT: 'cos I'm revising for an exam tomorrow on Science Communication, here's the slide that just popped up:
Fundamental truths. How does attacking someone's beliefs, even if you can prove they are delusional, achieve anything, other than build a tighter and smaller in-group with those who already vigorously agree with you?
If humanity is delusional, why follow?
Did I say follow humanity, or follow God?
I think you missed the point.The Bible teaches to deny yourself and that the greatest is the one who serves others.Does that sound like feel good rationalizing.
Thats alright greenish, God will give you a chance to put your money where your mouth is, if you really care about the earth and the well being of humanity - when TSHTF you will have a choice - conform or be cast out.
Better to be cast out, believe me.
"... IMO thats what got us into this mess..." i.e. Religion.
Believe it or not souperman, If you are referring to man made religions I would agree with you to a point - secular humanism is a religion likewise - people who put their faith in men.
I do not adhear to either one however, for in truth both are very similar to one another. They both have a misguided faith in men. Yeshua (Jesus) was perhaps the most anti-religious human being to ever walk the earth. If you carefully read the accounts in the Gospels He consistantly went against the prevailing man made systems that were in place, because in reality, these systems are always at odds with the truth.Religions of every kind, be it Christian, Judaism, Islam, Buddism et. al. may start of with knoble intentions but always invariably morph into man made systems that glorify men and follow mans principals and not God's.Humanism likewise follows this axiom of history.Communism, though atheistic, was a cult based upon the personality of one individual - first Lenin, then Stalin.Shall we even mention the Nationalist Socialist movement in pre war Germany.We should not deceive ourselves into thinking that we ourselves are immune to this kind of deception.
You could say however, that I myself am in this category by putting my complete fath in Yeshua (Jesus) and what He taught.And honestly you would be correct.But as Bob Dylan once said "you gotta serve somebody."
Now the American form of Christianity is perhaps the most misguided of all, but they, in reality, are not faithful Christians, but faithful Capitalists.Again, whether it is Capitalism, Socialism, Communism or any other so called civilized order of government, they are all man made and in the end will not work in bringing true egalitarianism to the world(which is the goal God has established by bringing Yeshua into the world).Read Zbigniew Brzezinski's new book "The Choice", and this eminent statesman will bring you too the same conclusion. Unfortunately, he leaves you hanging with a fatalistic point of view concerning the future if you wish to ever see true egalitarianism.
Ones politics IS ones religion.
One thing that you will never hear on your television, or radio, or any other form of religious or secular outlets is a scripture found in the Book of Revelation chapter 12 - "...God will destroy those who destroy the earth..."
When I read these words they convict me, for I know that, realistically, I have played a part in the systematic disorder of the balance God has established in creation by my own consumerism.And no green movement of any kind - unless it means going back to the horse and plow (producing, not consuming) - will ever work.
There is only one way "...Do unto others as you would have them do unto you..."
"...earn your bread by the sweat of YOUR brow..."
If everyone lived by these rules, the world would be a much better place wouldn't you say?
God is very fair with mankind, and He will provide a way out for individuals who seek the truth.To find the answer, however, you have to read the Bible for yourself. No one can seek God and truth for you but you yourself.
While I am squarely in the atheist camp, I used to be in the believer camp and understand how it "feels" to those who remain committed to their beliefs.
To my fellow atheists I say:
Forgive them for they know not what they are
and they have no free will over it anyway.
It does no good to preach truth to those who were born and raised in the lie. Their brains cannot absorb the noises that you make. So why waste your time?
Do you actually believe that your fellow species mates are "rational" and can be changed by speaking rationally to them? If so, you are the irrational one. All of human history, the wars, the overpopulating, the rise and fall of grand civilizations points to one conclusion:
We are no more rational than yeast.
So if some yeast mates in our petri dish choose to believe in the great Yeast-oh-whoa, or whatever name their deity goes by (and the miracle of the unleavened yeast), then I say, God bless them. Let them go on in their stated state of mind. Converting them won't really change the outcome. Yeast will be yeast. Just as beast will be beast. They are all merely trying to be fruitful, to multiply and to gain dominion over the Earth. Why agitate our petri dish with some more of this useless noise? Let it go.
Our last energies should be focused on how to survive without the spice, not on how to convert them that can't help themselves anyway.
Good advice and well-said.
But as a matter of aesthetics, kowtowing to the insane leaves much to be desired. Those with imaginary friends are free to listen to the voices, but if they inject them into conversation, they DO become fair game for comment.
I'll meet folks halfway, though: don't tell me about your deities and I won't say you're delusional. Can't say fairer than that.
Yep. It's been cooking for a long time, but the window in which it can happen is narrowing. Fallon the unwilling was replaced by Petraeus the willing. Plus many other pieces have been put into place.
This will throw all our linear and not-so-linear projections into the wastebasket. Chaos and disaster. Which some apparently believe they can find advantage in. Woe betide us.
Interview with Ray McGovern:
http://www.radiodujour.com/people/mcgovern_ray/mp3/20080625_alexjones_ra...
Yes, unfortunately Congress is in the process of abdicating it's Constitutional right to declare war.
Right now their are 208 cosponsors on HR 362 that calls for a blockade of exported petroleum to Iran. This is a brilliant measure to put pressure on the Iranian regime. What could go wrong?
The bill also calls for boarding ships departing from Iran. This is it. The bill passes through the House and the Senate tag along bill SR 580 passes. Bush forms a blockade. The clock begins to tick. Iran runs the blockade- shots are fired. Bush orders a bombing. Not only did Bush not start the war but Congress is the one that called for the action. The missiles fly from Iran and destroy the sitting duck fleet in the Gulf. Now anyone that opposes this war is Un-American.
Game, set, match Cheney---- unless the American people can stop these bills from going through.
I think BushCo. waited too long to move against Iran. Anything aggressive done between now and the elections will be viewed as a 100% political maneuver to help McCain's campaign. The US mood will not go as before with Iraq guaranteed and would only help Obama. I don't think for a millisecond that Obama couldn't turn any of that into a win for him. He's a pretty savvy framer in his own right.
Yes Bush's approval rating going down to 23% does make the possibility of an attack on Iran less likely BUT not outside of the realm of possibility.
This is a stealth plan---HR 362-- read the bill and marvel at the evil genius of it made by a very desperate group of individuals who have billions of dollars riding on an invasion of Iran.
Cheney can not be counted out yet. As long as he is in power he will hatch plans to bomb Iran. This current bill in the House and Senate is absolutely masterful.