DrumBeat: November 12, 2006

[Update by Leanan on 11/12/06 at 8:28 AM EDT]

Hybrid Hypocrisy

About a quarter of hybrid owners have an SUV in the garage, too. Why the conflicted carports?

As gas prices have plunged since topping $3 a gallon this summer, a startling shift is taking place in the car market. Hybrid sales are slowing and SUV sales are speeding up.

...That’s right: the megawatt popularity of hybrids is dimming and Americans are rediscovering their favorite automotive guilty pleasure, gas-guzzling SUVs. And here’s something even more shocking: a surprising number of Americans have it both ways. They own a hybrid and an SUV.

Bill Allowing More Drilling Along Coasts Appears Dead

Just a few months ago House Republicans and representatives of the energy industry were poised to rewrite a quarter-century of national energy policy and open the seas off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts to oil and gas drilling, which environmentalists had fervently resisted.

But Tuesday’s Democratic victory in midterm elections has changed the legislative landscape, obliterating the chances that anything close to the aggressive drilling bill passed by the House of Representatives will be enacted for years to come.


U.K.: Experts warn of energy shortfall

New nuclear reactors cannot be built in time to fill the huge shortfall in electricity generating capacity expected a decade from now, top energy company executives will warn the Government this week.

The Coal Forum, a group of leading industry figures set up over the summer as part of the Government's Energy Review, will instead argue for support for the construction of a new generation of clean coal plants.


Coal Can Offer Alternative for Oil

The days of coal may be thought to be long over, but a private research institute predicts its revival as an alternative energy source in the age of expensive oil and natural gas, especially for Korea and other countries that rely heavily on imported oil.


Climate change: the global test

The gap between what is needed to curb global warming and what seems feasible remains enormous. A timetable for action and a plan to implement it is essential.


Global growth in carbon emissions is 'out of control'

The growth in global emissions of carbon dioxide from fossil fuels over the past five years was four times greater than for the preceding 10 years, according to a study that exposes critical flaws in the attempts to avert damaging climate change.


'Environment be damned'

Economic progress at the cost of environmental hazards is absolutely okay, feel Indians who are ‘aware’ of the implications of climate change and global warming, says a Greenpeace study carried out by the Social and Environmental Research Centre division of Synovate.


U.K.: News analysis: Climate Change

In the future we may each have our own personal emissions allowance. When that happens, we will truly have entered the carbon age. Until then, this is how a world of national CO2 targets looks.


Kyoto countries seen agreeing steps to extend pact

NAIROBI - No breakthrough will happen next week in talks to extend the Kyoto pact on global warming, but a softening of stances will produce an agreement on next steps to take, senior negotiators have told Reuters.


Russia firm to increase oil supply to China

Russia's biggest oil exporter to China said on Friday it plans to boost supplies to the country by up to 65 per cent next year, aiming to eventually become the country's largest foreign partner in the energy field.


'Global oil prices may flare up again'

Economic think-tank NCAER has warned that global crude oil prices may again flare up in view of tight spare capacity in the international markets.


Gunmen invade oil station in Nigerian delta

ABUJA (Reuters) - Gunmen invaded an oil pumping station in Nigeria's southern Niger Delta on Saturday night, taking an unknown number of staff hostage and seizing a military houseboat, an oil industry source said on Sunday.

The attack on the facility operated by Italy's Agip in the creeks of Bayelsa state comes as another flow station run by the same firm elsewhere in the state is under occupation by protesters demanding compensation for oil spills.


Nigeria's oil workers threaten strike to protest insecurity

ABUJA - Oil workers in Nigeria threatened to resume a strike they called off after two days in September, accusing the government of reneging on the promises it made to them two months ago.


Trendy roof turbines are not as green as they look

Green campaigners warn that rooftop windmills do little to cut greenhouse gases, may annoy your neighbours, cause vibrations that could damage your home and produce only enough electricity to power a hairdryer.


Critics of biofuel have it all wrong

Ethanol's critics argue that America cannot produce enough biofuel from agricultural commodities to break our addiction to oil without impacting the availability of food. The facts suggest we can do it in an economically and environmentally sustainable manner. With the help of biotechnology, producers can grow enough corn and other agricultural crops to both provide raw material for our biorefineries and feed our people.
Hello TODers & attn: AlanFromBigEasy,

I am not an Civil Engineer [but instead a fearful fast-crash doomer], so the following essay may have merit, or be totally assinine and unpractical.  Most experts discounted my earlier idea for using billions of steelies for Petawatt energy storage and generation.  Thus, I will leave it up to those with greater expertise to determine the validity and cost-effectiveness of my next set of wild ideas.  Perhaps it will stimulate in some clever inventor's mind an even better solution.

I don't think any TODers dispute the fact of future food relocalization as the primary source of our postPeak nutrition.  I also believe that potable water will be an extremely valuable resource, and waste from leaks will be totally unacceptable.  The first two articles in this EnergyBulletin link are excellent examples, and most experts think Global Warming will make H2O even more precious in the future.  Additionally, from the response generated from my prior postings: I detected a huge social reluctance to giving up flush toilets for humanure recycling.  Thus, I present for your Cornucopian Consideration:

Energetic Optimization by Combo Fast-tracking our postPeak Spiderwebs!

I am all in favor of TODer AlanfromBigEasy's proposals, but RRs and mass-transit will have limited reach into the permaculture countryside--the heavy steel wheel on a thick rail spiderweb with electrification just will not go everywhere desired.  The tonnage moved generates very high PSI load factors on the rails.

Yet many TODers have posted on how most roads will crumble to postPeak dust from lack of energy, heavy equipment, asphalt, and concrete to do meaningful repairs.  Recall my earlier posting where 4 Mexicans died in a shootout over filling a pothole.  So, using the precautionary principle: we should assume most roads will return to dirt, and mud when it rains.  This can be very abrasive and jarring to future PHEV's electro-mechanical innards, and bicycling in the mud is very inefficient.  

Additionally, it occurred to me that rubber tires will be extremely expensive postPeak, or even unobtainable.  Recall my much earlier posting on how bicycles were among the leading inflationary items in Zimbabwe.  I bet bicycle tires are very expensive there, too.  Most of us are familiar with flats from thorns, and the human energy input required to overcome the rolling resistance of rubber tires, too.  It won't be any easier if your bicycle is laden-down with 100lbs of permaculture produce that you are trying to get back to the urban market either.

Thus, we should expect our milgov, if they are on the ball, to require a small factory in every US town to relocalize bicycle tire manufacturing until even petrol for this is no longer possible.  Currently, I believe nearly all bicycle tires are made overseas, but postPeak China will probably reclassify this industry as a military-strategic asset, thus shutting us off from resupply.   Again, the precautionary principle should impell us to consider a better solution.  Keep reading TODers: I will shortly tie these thoughts all together!

Additionally, if we are smart: we must consider the mind-boggling amounts of the future energy and materials required when we start to replace the millions of miles of our underground utilities' infrastructure spiderweb.  For example, here in my neighborhood of the Asphalt Wonderland: water, sewage, electric, natgas, cable, and phone service is all located underground.

When energy, pipeline materials, and water was cheap, this was a logical decision.  Using heavy equipment fueled by cheap gas & diesel: it was EXTREMELY EASY for trenchers, backhoes, bulldozers, and dumptrucks to move billions of tons of dirt.  Big, long haul truckers and lifting cranes had no problem loading and delivering millions of tons of pipeline materials all across the country.  Energy-intensive concrete and asphalt, no problem when you have giant shovels, rock-crushing machines, vibratory-screen rock & sand sorters, and concrete mixers. But that was then [the front side of the Hubbert upslope].

What do we do now that energy, pipeline materials, and water will be very expensive?  Never forget that a barrel of crude = 25,000 hard physical man-hours of labor.  Can we find an easy way to quickly and easily maintain any pipeline and likewise detect a wasteful leak?

Can we economically afford to dedicate that many people to hand-digging up, replacing our aging infrastructure spiderwebs, then reshoveling the dirt back, when I think most of us will already be engaged in daily permaculture labor?  Can we even find enough people willing to do this back-breaking work, or will it take slaves @ gunpoint?  I think most of us would prefer weeding a tomato patch vs wielding a pick & shovel all day!  Can we find a partial solution to dirt roads as we remake our towns into walkable & mass-transit dense clusters?  Can we find a way to ride bicycles and drive PHEVs without postPeak rubber tires?

Perhaps we can, if my wild-ass ideas that tie these aforementioned problems all together has any engineering practicality! Keep reading please!

Just as a railroad has a standard gauge--I propose we move much of our replacement pipelines above ground as required, and establish special, reinforced gauges that are conducive to both the material transported within and the bikes or PHEVs on steel wheels that can ride atop them.

This eliminates the postPeak: hand-digging; allows easy leak-detection of water, gas, sewage, etc; simplifies maintainence & repairs & further extensions; and many or most crumbling roads can be converted to these combo pipeline-railbeds outside of the remade mass-transit towns and cities to provide the tracks for bicycles and PHEVs.

Please use your vivid imaginations for a few minutes and picture, in its spiderweb totality, what enormous networks lie underground in your location.  Most will 'mentally unearth' parallel tracks of freshwater and sewage lines that intersect at the paved intersections where the manhole covers hide their underground presence.  Move those pipes aboveground 'for real', make them extra thick & strong, then weld a thin rail on top of each as a track for bicycle or PHEVs.

Thus a postPeak town would be largely laid out in a linear, or maybe x-y axis fashion, with the high trackbed PSI gauge RRs & mass-trans on this critical 'spine'.  Then the next gauge of reduced PSI PHEV track-pipes branching out as the 'ribs' to the innermost permaculture boundaries.  The PHEVs could be very light because no suspension system is needed for handling potholes [trackbed is very smooth], and minimal rolling resistance means a smaller motor is needed.  Then, the field-workers make the next transition to the smaller, final parallel Bike track-pipes that continue outward into the permaculture and ranching hinterlands as far as economically feasible.

Depending upon the optimum town layout configuration, but still using a standardized gauge: the track-pipes could be all outgoing sewer pipes headed to the sewage treatment plant, leaching fields and/or composting areas, but the workers would be actually riding the spiderweb just as a real spider does in nature.  IMO, this is much more efficient than the workers commuting in a vehicle over the same route of the pipeline just underneath them-- you have tremendously reduced most of required dual infrastructure investment and maintenance!

Workers headed to a refinery, brewery, or biofuel plant might be riding atop track-pipes containing the raw inputs [water, or biomass-slurry, or outgoing track-pipes of ethanol, or biodiesel, even beer?.  )  But again, the workers would be actually riding the spiderweb just as a real spider does in nature.

If appropriate health and safety standards can be met: workers could even commute atop track-pipes carrying electricity from windmills, thermal & standard PV gen plants, nuke plants, and so on.  =The main point is if  standardized gauges can be set, it doesn't matter what is being transferred in the pipes.  Obviously, care must be taken so that water and sewage pipes are not joined together--paint the pipes different colors!

Even if economic conditions shift whereby eventually nothing is transported in a section of track-pipe, but the rider route is still deemed essential-- this is still cheaper, and more energy efficient than trying to build a postPeak road.

Okay TODers, I hope I tickled your synapses.  I welcome any critiques, but most of all: I hope someone has an even better multi-networked infrastructure with a lower cost-basis.  But remember: clever spiders use their single webs for food-gathering and storage, water-collection by dewdrops, and area transport.

Maybe we should become Spiderwomen & Spidermen too!

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

I think you should start your own blog.  Then you can post your articles there, and post links here.

Starting a blog at Blogger or a similar site is very easy.  If you can post here, you'll have no problem blogging.

Leanan,

Someone (in the thread about the future of TOD) made a suggestion about a diary system simliar to www.dailykos.com (or www.redstate.com).

If someone like totoneila wants to post a diary, he can. If its of enough quality it'll get promoted to a recomended list, If not it'll just filter off the recently posted list. You could comment on diaries individualy (keeping topics seperate).
Main articles would of course get the main page and the attention they deserve.

Seems inclusive. Why encourage posters to start a seperate blog when they can contribute to TOD?

Modderation would be a seperate issue though (I don't think dkos's moderation system would be a good fit here).

Just a thought about TOD 3.0

Why encourage posters to start a seperate blog when they can contribute to TOD?

That might be something to consider down the road, but we don't have the ability to do it now.  I'm not sure we'd want to, either.  Why reinvent the wheel?  There are many very good, and free, blogging sites out there.  Why do we have to do the hosting ourselves?  

We already have a blogroll.  Having a "recommended" list of on the side bar would be cool, but I don't see any reason we should do the hosting.

I wasn't thinking about "reinventing the wheel" so to speak.

I thought it was mostly an issue of which software package to migrate too.

There are several (I believe) such packages that support diary systems.

But maybe this is thinking about the issue backwards.
What systems are in consideration for TOD 3.0?
Perhaps it would be easier to comment on them?

dKos uses Scoop, which is the package TOD uses now.

But there's more to consider than just the software.  There's bandwidth, and hosting space.  Someone is going to have to buy the computers to store all the blogs (if we go that route), and pay for the bandwidth.

And to tell you the truth, I really don't like the way dKos works.  It's impossible these days.

Erm... why not?

Doesn't Scoop explicitly support diaries as one of its main features?

Sorry, didn't see post above on bandwidth/storage.

But I think you're overestimating things on how TOD w/ diaries would compare to TOD.  Dkos is the way it is because it's the center of the liberal blogosphere - diaries are its trademark, and everyone with a wellknown blog in that broad circle is obliged to have one.  It doesn't translate to our userbase.

I still don't see the point in reinventing the wheel.  Blogger has great tools for blogging, and is getting better all the time.  

dKos does not allow you to upload images, for example.  No doubt for bandwidth reasons.  Blogger does.  Heck, dKos now blocks even linking to images, except from a short list of image hosting services.  

Hello Leanan,

Thxs for responding.  I did start a blog back in March, but I think something is wrong with the setup, and I gave up trying to figure it out.  I think it is online, but I never got any visitors or comments.

http://arehumanssmarterthanyeast.blogspot.com/

I was up last night composing that Spider post brainstorm--so I gotta get some shuteye soon--back later.  If it is off-topic or too long, feel free to delete.  I apologize, but I am not a computer guru like many here.

Bob Shaw in Phx,Az  Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?

LOL!  I was hoping you would call your blog "Are Humans Smarter Than Yeast?"  :-)

It looks really good to me.  I love that template.  

Don't expect to get visitors or comments right away.  It takes awhile to build an audience.  And you have to promote your blog.  Also known as "blogwhoring."  Put the URL in your message board and e-mail sigs.  Post links and excerpts here when you've posted something new.  Post comments to related blogs; people will click on your name and follow it back to your blog.

You also have to update regularly, or your audience will wander away.  One thing you might consider is posting selected articles from that Yahoogroup you're always quoting from.  (Get permission from the original author, if required.)  It's hard to find stuff on Yahoogroups.  If you post a few gems (properly credited, of course), you could bring attention to stuff most of won't ever see otherwise.  You'd also be able to post the URL of the blog entry later, if you wanted to refer someone to it.  You'd be creating your own archives, so to speak.  Even if no one comments, it will be useful.

Bob Shaw's beer pipelines work for me, even if I doubt such is practical. Glad I read it, glad I read it here.
I'm not saying I don't want Bob to post here.  It's a matter of length.  Especially for the first post in a thread.  

In the other thread (about the future of TOD), some were asking for a software-enforced length limit.  Rather than do that, I would just ask people to exercise some self-restraint.  It's just basic etiquette.  You don't hog the bandwidth at someone else's blog.


"In the other thread (about the future of TOD), some were asking for a software-enforced length limit."

The length issue is of some interest to me.  Does regular line text actually consume that much bandwidth?  This is one reason I will give links to photos for example, rather than trying to insert the photo into the post...because I know that graphics and photos do consume more bandwidth and memory.

On the other hand, I love TOD because it is not a "sound bite" site.  The comments boards after news stories on Yahoo and others seem to bring out the screamers who have one sentence of sarcasm, but no real discussion.  That is one reason I came to TOD, because the depth of commentary is deeper and more involved, which of course, takes a few more lines of writing (and a bit more effort of thought!)

I just posted a long post on the "Declaration of Independence" story for example.  There were only 12 posts when I got there, and the story had been up for 12 hours, so I didn't feel that I would "use up" the bandwidth by going a bit long.....and it is all line text, no photos or graphics.  The other issue is that if I post twelve different times at a paragraph each, I am using as much space as one 12 paragraph post, am I not?

This all brings back what is for me a growing sense of disappointment in the internet as a tool for exchange of information and discussion.  Only a few years ago, we were promised an age in which graphics, still and motion pictures, music, and voice discussion would soon be available to all.  Instead, we are finding that an old fashioned letter by mail is much more efficient for communication, and that "bandwidth" is becoming a jealously protected commodity.  The internet, like radio and television before it, is becoming nothing more than a giant bilboard for folks peddling junk (I can't help but notice that the sponsers and advertisers always seem to have bandwidth to put up flashing moving graphics on every site :-(
Television was once called "a vast wasteland".  The internet improves on that, by being a "vast interactive wasteland".

Roger Conner  known to you as ThatsItImout

Does regular line text actually consume that much bandwidth?

No.  I was using word in its figurative sense, not the literal technical term.  

People get upset when there's a huge long comment high up in a new thread.  It's sort of the blog equivalent of hogging the conversation at a party.  

dKos handled this for awhile by "windowing" long comments.  If your comment was too long, only the top few lines would show, in a little window.  People had to scroll to see the rest.  

The windowing  for long posts sounds OK to me.
Bob Shaw,

TOD would IMO, just not be the same without Totoneila's wild and crazy ideas expressed in Drum Beats.

I repeat what I said earlier in the Heretical Topic debate.
Those who don't wish to read the PO offbeat text can just decide to not click on Drum Beats. This is a choice.

Wild and crazy ideas. All this is needed for combating the effects of PO. Riding steel pipes? Who would have thought?

As to the roads self destructing? Without major traffic on them how will they deteriorate? Granted asphalt will crumble eventually with extreme weather but concrete should last a long time. Myself I can remember railroad maintenance vehicles that were propelled by pumping handlebars. Now I see this has changed to pickups with a set of rails. There are several here in town who use these and work for the railroads. They just pull a lever after straddling the rails and with the rear wheels lightly touching the rails go flying right down the tracks.

As a kid in the country we all played on the tracks and trestles. We sometimes hopped on the trains as they moved slowly by and hitched a ride. Rails used to be a familiar part of our country side. Without train traffic those rails should last for an enormous time and might become a viable means of travel to far off places, maybe with a sail or spinnaker set out or a mule pulling it along.

airdale

Where I live even (cement based) concrete roads, especially the smaller ones, are fairly fragile. Some of the smaller streets that were done in concrete 30 or 40 years ago are a mess needing constant repairs. They're not good for the bicycling advocated on this thread because they're best suited to wide, fat, low pressure tires that exert massive amounts of exhausting drag.

This probably owes much to winter, trees, and rain, three items scarce and not well-understood in some parts of the country, such as much of California and all of the desert Southwest.

Winter causes frost heaving, which in just a decade or two can cause misalignments sufficient to regularly pinch-flat low-drag bicycle tires, and eventually breaks up the slabs. Growing tree roots lift up the slabs, misaligning, tilting, and then breaking them. And rain in sloped areas eventually undermines the roadbed, again shifting, misaligning, and eventually breaking up the slabs. Streets paralleling contours eventually become quite tilted, and have to be dug out and redone. (IIRC some interpretations of the Disability Act require sidewalks to be dug out and redone if the sideways tilt is a barely detectable 2%, which can be attained in just a few years.)

Very true.  Concrete roads are viewed as a huge mistake here in the northeast.  They seemed like a good idea at the time.  Now, we are ripping them up whenever possible, and replacing them with flexible pavements (asphalt).  

But they are still being used in the south and west, where it's warmer and drier.

Hey...hey...don't forget about the Midwest...Missy!!!  We are all asphalt...all the time.
Are you?  I drove across Ohio on the Turnpike last spring.  It must have cost hundreds of millions of dollars, widening I-90 across the entire state, tearing down all those perfectly good bridges to make room for the extra lanes.  

And it looked like they were putting in PCC pavements.  I guess it could have been that new white asphalt, but I could swear I saw them putting rebar in.

Oh....you're talking about the expansive highways that go on and on for eternity between population centers...ya...those are probably concrete.  Get into the metro areas and we use asphalt.

BTW...quit being so smart and observant when catching my mistakes.  At other times...go ahead.

Paul, here in Minneapolis I ride year-round on Organicengines SUV's.  The 20" tires give about 2inches in diameter, and are inflated to between 85 and 110 pounds.

I can ride over turf, gravel, and through slush and snow on the city streets.

Changing our habitual thinking about how we move around every day is one of the biggest challenges we face.  Biking takes more time and energy, and we sweat more when we travel actively.

Workbikes, trikes, quads, electric assist, motorcycles and small vehicles can significantly expand our options, but right now we design our lives around the car and petroleum, upon which we depend for all that we recieve.

I was speaking primarily of the interstate highway system, state roads and perhaps some county roads. I was not advocating subdivision and city roads.

I can remember when the interstate hwy system started and was being built. Even with huge amounts of traffic I didn't see any replacement being done for many many years. I know for I drove I-70 and I-55 in St. Louis to downtown and back to the burbs for over 25 yrs. Each work day.

I didn't see the deterations spoken of above. Trees? Nope. Rain? Designed for. Winter frost heave? Nope.

As to asphalt? Here heat is the big problem and huge trucks. A person installs an asphalt driveway he can expect very good performance with minimal maintenance IF it is laid correctly.
If its a cheap shoddy job then its worthless. Same with concrete. Had to be on superior fill and not something just hauled in, thrown down and compacted a few times.

Besides how will it deteriotate if no vehicles are using it due to the absence of fuel to run them with?

The blacktop past my farm has been there for 5 yrs , when a new layer was last placed. Its in fine shape still. Its a state road as well.

The northeast with its problems? Yes I agee to that situation. Frankly though I intend to stay just where I am.

BTW as a youth we rode a team and wagon to town. The roads were gravel. When vehicles came along we just drove on the gravel roads. In my county the gravel roads were replaced only about 10 yrs ago(in total but yet a few gravel roads still exist). 25 yrs ago all the county back roads were still gravel and we ran a road grader down them ocassionally.  

Worked then just fine.

When driving just the other day to an auction I went thru some Amish country where they use a lot of horse and buggies. I came up behind one just walking his single mare along at a slow pace. He and his family were in no particuliar hurry. A few Amish boys were walking not far ahead. This reminded me of my childhood and how we walked behind the wagon to town for the once Saturday 'trade day'. Its was nice, pleasant and a good outing with exercise thrown in. Seeing friends and neighbors and passing the time to chat.

Those days disappeared in fumes of burnt oil, skid marks and mans great hurry to go somewhere in a big ass hurry.

I do miss it. I wonder if I will see it again?

I suggest that someone looking for an alternate skillset might consider harness making. Buggy building. Raising draft horses. Mules,etc.

The Amish have all these skills and more. Living around them shows one that selfsustained living is truly possible.

Many do not have telephone. Many do not have electricity. Many use a horse and buggy and put up corn and hay by hand and with a wagon and team , the old timey ways.

airdale

Airdale,
excellent point about the Amish.  I've often wondered why there's all this talk about how a sustainable community might work- as if there were no such community extant today.  The strictest Amish sects are still doin' it like the world was 300 years ago before fossil fuels.  Why re-invent the wheel?
Most Amish are not as independent of the modern world as commonly believed.  They usually don't own tractors, but they rent them.  They'll hire drivers and rent vans to take their families grocery shopping and such.  They use modern fertilizers and pesticides.  They often own kerosene refrigerators and generators to power agricultural equipment.  They don't own phones, but they borrow the use of them from neighbors.  Or they do own a phone, but it can't be kept in the house. They go to modern doctors and hospitals for health care.  They are connected to the larger economy, buying supplies and selling their products. Those plain black garments are often made of polyester.

Perhaps most unsustainable is their rapid population growth rate.  

leanan you seem to be trying ot reinvent the amish too.  think this way for a second.

They have lived for 300 years, on the edge of their world, bit by bit, tick by tock they seap into ours and we into theirs.  The idea is not that they are not, or we are not, but that we both together are.

Think about that first get back to me if I am wrong.
Charles E. Owens Jr.
Author at Large aka Dan Ur
A large bear of a man, flexible and fit, just like the bear he is.

True, most Amish have one foot in the old world and one in the new, but there are those who still do it the old way.  The strictest sects in NE Ohio still use horse driven plows, will not step foot in a car nor wear any synthetic clothes.  There's been a debate recently about whether to force them to accept reflective plastics on their buggies.  The strictest Amish will not permit them and are more prone to get struck by a speeding car or truck at night
Each 'community' or possibly can be called large group, is different. Some do use autos and such. Yet there are groups here in Ky who live very much like we did many years ago.

I think each assortment can make their own rules depending on the leadership of each.

I also believe Ky has had a large influx because they wearied of Pennsylvania and we leave them alone here. We mostly respect their culture and let them abide by their ways.

If you want so work done you will find that the Amish and Mennonites will do very high quality work and will never cheat you. They will not work tobacco though.

I have never seen them smoke or chew , though they may when not in public. I see them everyday and they always are plentiful at auctions. Most buy old unused horse drawn farm equipment and repair it to new condition.

They do not speak much with the rest of us. Seem rather shy but they do not foster an arrogant or egotistical attitude at all. They are fine folks IMO who wish to go their own way and be allowed to without a lot of interference. In Ky they seem to fine a good atmosphere. At least in the western and central parts that I know well and travel thru. Union county in Ky. has some of the ones who I observed putting up corn the old fashioned way and plowing with teams.

In my opinion they seem to have a patriarchial form of self rule.The women are extremely quiet and unobstrusive. Long skirts and bonnets just like my granny wore.  

Never see them driving at night. They try to get home before it gets dark. They never drive on major roads that I have seen if they can avoid them.

Yes, each community can set its own rules.  

They are not anti-technology per se.  Rather, they consider how technology will affect the community.

For example, they want to keep separate from the rest of the world, so most refuse to be connected to the grid.  But they can use diesel-powered generators.  They can't have phones in the house, but they can have them in sheds outside the house, where they are inconvenient to use, and where no one will hear incoming calls.

The reason some communities allow tractors as long as they are attached to a horse is to prevent greed. They don't want a farmer to be tempted to buy up all the land and outcompete his neighbors.  

In cases where technology is needed - someone is too disabled to plow the old-fashioned way, for instance - it is encouraged.

2% is standard for drainage of sidewalks  (1/4 inch per foot)
Bob,

lmao at your choice of name for your blog!

Leanan,
I do not understand why the creators of TOD do not put a limit on the number of characters that can be printed in a single post. This way if someone has a lot to say, they have to create something with a link to it. This would eliminate a large staff trying to figure out what to do to a post. Go to any greeting card sight and you can see what I mean.
I have said this before;
One other thing that I find disturbing here is that you establish a forum heading but then list a lot of links to other topics under that listing. Instead of just calling it DrumBeat, add, (and related news stories,) then allow your members to post comments to a story that they feel  needs further discussion under a new forum listing. Only post news stories that you intend to be discussed here at the TOD.
The creators of TOD are encouraging 334 posts to a single DrumBeat by doing this.
The DrumBeats are meant to be open threads.
"Brevity is the soul of wit."

Shake-speare