Economic Impact of Peak Oil Part 3: What's Ahead?
Posted by Gail the Actuary on October 1, 2007 - 10:00am
Topic: Economics/Finance
Tags: collapse, deflation, foreign trade, hyperinflation, mexico, monetary system, original, saudi arabia [list all tags]
This is the third article in a 3-part series. (Here's a link to Part 1 and Part 2.)
We cannot know exactly what is ahead. In this part, we look at one possible future scenario. When we think of economic impacts, we usually think of the impacts that the squeeze of higher oil prices will bring--such as energy price inflation, food price inflation, and the need for more mass transit.
While these "squeeze" impacts are expected to occur, the real problem may be the discontinuities that occur, because of pressure on monetary systems and pressure on political systems. These pressures can cause unexpected results such as:
• Hyperinflation or deflation that indirectly results in a major decline in imports of all kinds (not just oil),
• Major changes in governments, and
• Fast declines in oil production in some oil exporting countries.
1. What impacts do you expect peak oil to have in the future?
There are three types of impacts that may occur. In the scenario that is presented here, we will assume that they all occur.
Squeeze impacts These are the impacts caused by gradually higher prices and slowly reducing world supply. This type of impact is already squeezing some of the poorer countries out of the world oil market. While this type of impact can be expected to increase over time, in this scenario, it is of far less importance than discontinuities.
Discontinuities for oil exporters In these countries, there is the possibility of social unrest and overthrow of governments once oil production begins to fall. This may happen because government revenues begin to decline, resulting in a cutback in governmental services and imports. The impact is likely to be a faster decline in oil production.
Discontinuities for oil importers Once real growth falters, the combination of increasing debt and decreasing real incomes may overwhelm monetary systems for oil importers. The infinite growth paradigm will come to an abrupt halt. Depending on the type of governmental intervention, the resulting discontinuity could either take the form of hyperinflation or rapid deflation. My analysis suggests either of these may result in a decline in the amount of oil and other goods a country is able to import, because of debt and monetary problems.
2. How soon might such discontinuities occur?
Discontinuities could start very soon, and continue in different countries over many years.
With respect to oil exporters, Mexico, with its declining oil production, is already at risk for social unrest and overthrow of the government. Saudi Arabia has a high risk of government overthrow, once its oil production starts clearly declining. Because of this type of discontinuity, world oil production may begin to decline considerably faster than models based on "business as usual" would suggest.
With respect to oil importers, we indicated in Part 2 that the debt situation in the United States is already in a precarious situation. A little more squeeze in oil availability, or a sharp drop in the value of the dollar, or even widespread knowledge of the likelihood of peak oil and its effects could further destabilize the debt market. Faith in the ability of long-term borrowers to repay their debt could evaporate. Depending on how the government deals with this situation, the result could be either hyperinflation or deflation.
If there are discontinuities, the timing is likely to vary from country to country, depending on the situation in that particular country. Once there is a discontinuity in a major country such as the United States, the impact may to spread to some other countries as well. Some countries may be able minimize discontinuity effects by finding a group of lesser-affected countries and sharing resources within the group.
3. If there is hyperinflation in the United States, what kinds of effects might there be? How about massive deflation?
With peak oil, there are likely to be many debt defaults, ultimately caused by the squeeze of higher oil prices. (This squeeze of higher oil prices may actually cause problems before the peak arrives. See Part 2, Question 12.) If the response of the government is to guarantee payment of debt, so as to prevent business failures, the money supply may expand greatly and hyperinflation may occur. If there are many defaults and the government does not intervene, or its intervention is unsuccessful, the money supply may contract, and deflation may occur.
Hyperinflation. If there is hyperinflation, people and businesses will find that money in their bank accounts and fixed income retirement funds will purchase very little. Incomes of people with jobs are not likely to rise as fast as the price of goods, so they will find it necessary to reduce their purchases. Demand for many optional goods and services will drop.
After a short time, the government will find that its revenue is very low compared to the huge amount of debt that it has guaranteed. Buyers for government bonds are likely to disappear, and the monetary system will collapse.
Whether or not the monetary system fails, foreign governments holding US debt will be very unhappy. Even if there is not a default, the bonds will be redeemed with dollars that are worth much less than when the bonds were purchased. Either way, foreign governments will feel cheated.
Massive Deflation With massive deflation, there will be many business failures --banks, money market funds, hedge funds, insurance companies, and ultimately businesses of many kinds. FDIC insurance will cover some of the bank losses, but this would soon be depleted. Many people will find their life savings wiped out.
Governmental revenue will decline in such a scenario, making it difficult for the US government to repay its debt. Exceedingly high interest rates might be needed to attract buyers for US debt--higher than could be afforded with the decline in revenue. If the problems were to become severe enough, the whole monetary system could collapse.
4. If the monetary system fails, what are the options for replacing it?
In a scenario where the monetary system fails, there will be big problems. In such a scenario, it seems like there is a significant chance that the government may also be replaced, because the existing government will have no money and there will be a huge number of people who are very angry about the situation. Waiting up to four years for a new president, and up to six years for new senators, may seem unacceptable. Open revolt seems possible.
Once we are talking about replacing the government, we are really speculating. One question is whether the new government would cover the same 50 states as it does today, or a smaller area. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, the governments of its constituent states remained, and these took over.
If the analogous situation happened here, we would fall back on the 50 individual state governments. This would be the easiest new government to implement. It is theoretically possible that the 50 state governments could each set up its own fiat monetary system. It seems to me that this may be the most likely outcome.
5. What kind of new monetary system would work?
If we are talking about 50 state governments issuing currency, I would expect that the level of planning that would go into each of the new systems would be limited. Each state would issue some type of money, good only in that state. A governor might choose to increase the amount of money available whenever he or she found it politically expedient to do so.
With this system, money would still act as a means for facilitating the transfer of goods. No one would reasonably expect money to be a store of value because the amount of money in circulation in the future may be quite a bit greater than today, and the amount of goods available for purchase would likely be decreasing.
In a scenario where a new 50-state monetary system is created, the monetary system would still not act as a store of value. The inflation rate would likely to be very high, and interest rates would not be sufficient to offset the inflation. This result is expected because the amount of goods available to society will be decreasing over time because of peak oil and decreasing imports. Unless someone figures out a way to keep contracting the money supply on a regular basis (ask for 5% back from everyone?), the decrease in available goods would almost certainly result in persistent inflation.
If it is necessary to create a new 50-state government, the length of time it takes to put all of the pieces in place--a new government, a new monetary system, and probably a new banking system--could be a problem. If a new democratically elected government were to be formed, it would seem like the process could take up to three years. We would most likely be without any monetary system at all during this time. If some type of dictatorship took over, the timeframe might be much shorter, but there would be different issues.
6. What kind of financial system would work with a fiat monetary system, long-term inflation, and a declining economy?
In such a scenario, people would expect to spend money pretty much as soon as they earned it. Banks would be primarily for convenience, rather than as a place to store money for the future.
Insurance products with a very short time horizon could be sold - for example, term life insurance, health coverage, auto coverage, homeowners coverage, fire insurance for buildings, and cargo coverage for shipping.
Loans with very short time frames might be offered--for example, short-term financing of goods for resale. Long term business and personal loans would generally not be available, because of the uncertainty of the value of the currency in the future, and also because of the declining economy. (If the only problem were the variable inflation rate, variable interest rate loans might work.)
Because of the uncertain nature of money, it is possible that longer-term loans could be made to individuals that would be paid back in services rather than money. For example, a city might pay a person's tuition for medical school in return for his/her agreeing to work for that city for a set number of years to repay the loan. (Does this sound a little like being an indentured servant?)
Financing of large projects by businesses or individuals would be very difficult, because of the lack of long-term loans. Because of this, large projects would most likely need to be undertaken by governments, and financed by tax dollars.
A country with an economy of the type described would likely be very poor. It would theoretically be possible for the country to have a social security-type retirement program financed by a tax on workers. Because of the poverty of the country, such an arrangement seems unlikely, however. Instead, I would expect most people to work as long as they are able, and live with children in later life.
7. I learned that money is always a store of value. Isn't that what economics teaches?
Economics may teach that money is a store of value, but unfortunately this cannot be true when an economy is in a period of long-term contraction. Economists have developed their theories looking at an atypical period in the world's history--one where growth was the norm. They have never stopped to realize that our world is finite, so infinite growth is not possible. Their theories may hold for a specific time period, but aren't true in general.
In some ways, their assumptions are similar to the assumptions of people who once thought the world was flat. At some time in the not too distant future, people will come to realize that the most important word in the phrase "economic theory" is the word theory. Economic theory is really just an untested hypothesis, developed in period of long-tern economic growth. Once this growth stops, there is no particular reason to believe that economic theory will hold.
8. What will future trade look like in scenarios such as you are discussing?
If we are looking at 50 state governments, each with its own type of money, future trade is likely to be pretty limited. There will be some trade across state lines, but long-distance transport of people and goods is likely to decrease significantly. It may be possible to import some goods from overseas, but I would expect that an equal-value export would need to be traded at the same time with the same country.
If we are looking at a unified United States, prospects for trade are better. Trade within the United States will most likely continue unhindered. Overseas trade may still be a problem. For one thing, foreign countries will be unhappy about the default on US debt (or its payment in inflated dollars), and will want to retaliate. At a minimum, they will be unwilling to extend credit, unless it is clearly earned. I expect that countries will develop a close set of allies whose credit can be trusted, and trade mostly with those allies.
In either scenario, I expect that the total amount of foreign trade will drop sharply. As an upper bound, I would expect imports from overseas to equal about 56% of our current imports. (See Part 2, Question 8.) This kind of drop would be needed to eliminate our current balance of payments deficit. Even this level of imports is almost certainly unreasonably high, if our ability to produce goods for export decreases, or if there are barriers to trade. Also, some of our trading partners (like Japan) are likely to have economic problems as well. A better guess might be that overseas imports will equal 10% of current imports.
The decline in trade is a key issue. In a scenario where the US monetary system collapses, there will be oil somewhere in the world, but we won't be able to buy it. The inability to buy the oil will cause the problems, not the lack of oil itself. We also will find ourselves unable to buy most of the other goods we currently import.
9. What will happen to large companies?
In scenarios such as this, I expect that most large companies will either cease to exist, or will break into pieces that fit within a single country. There are several issues:
• If a US company has assets in overseas locations, there is a significant possibility that foreign governments will find an excuse to confiscate those assets, as partial payment for the US default on debt.
• Business airline travel is likely to disappear very quickly, because of the squeeze effect of declining oil supply. It will be very difficult to manage overseas locations using boats as the primary means of travel.
• Financial system problems may be a huge issue. It will be difficult to expand operations without the availability of long-term debt. Stock values are likely to be very low if the economy is in long-term decline, so raising funds from the issuance of stock will not work well either. If there are 50 states with non-interchangeable currencies, business operations across state lines may be very difficult.
• The decline in imports is likely to be a real problem. Local replacements will need to be found for raw materials and parts that were imported from abroad--even replacement parts, to keep machinery operating. Fuel for transportation of products will be very limited. Customers will have difficulty visiting stores, because of limited fuel supplies.
10. What kind of economy can continue, without large companies, with very few imports, and with a finance system as you described?
In such a scenario, I expect that the economy that can exist long-term would be a very simple system, with most people either growing their own food or manufacturing some type of product using local materials. Such a system might be similar to an economy from 1900 or earlier.
If this scenario should happen now, the new economy would not work as well as the economy in 1900 in many ways, because the country would be lacking some of the things available in 1900 -- for example, draft animals for labor and farm tools that do not require fuel. People now are also lacking the required skills to live as people lived then - knowledge of farming, food processing and woodworking, for example.
For the first several years, I expect we would be able to carry over some of our current lifestyle. People would continue to live in houses that were built prior to the discontinuity--perhaps two or three families in a single house, if the house is conveniently located. Clothing and other manufactured goods would be used as long as possible. I expect that there would be considerable trade in used household goods.
Electricity would continue to be available as long as the grid can be maintained and power plants can be operated. I expect that if new power plants are built, they would use local materials for generation-- wood pieces where there are forests and oil where oil is produced. The availability of electricity is likely to vary by the part of the country. Grids are likely to be difficult to maintain, so eventually electricity is likely to be generated close to where it is used. Many homeowners are likely to be without electricity.
11. Will there be rationing of gasoline and diesel fuel?
In this scenario, it is possible that there would be rationing of fuel for a few years, but I expect the whole transportation system would collapse pretty quickly, so that the need for gasoline and diesel would decline. The reason I see a problem is the fact that our vehicles -- cars, semi-trucks, fire engines, ambulances, farm equipment, and airplanes--have many parts that need to be replaced regularly:
• Batteries
• Oil filters
• Tires
• Brake linings
• Head lights
• Fluids such as anti-freeze, transmission fluid, and motor oil
In addition, roads and bridges that the cars and trucks use need regular maintenance. If we are very much restricted in terms of imports, we will not be able to import the parts and raw materials that we are accustomed to. Because of this, it will be difficult to keep the cars and trucks running and the roads repaired. Even if we have plenty of gasoline and diesel fuel, the system will come to a stop.
Boats and trains may be better, in terms of needing fewer replacement parts. Electric trains would seem to be OK as long as the grid is running. Once the grid stops, electric trains will stop.
12. How much new infrastructure would we be able to build, after the discontinuity?
Very little. There are a lot of things we would like to use our resources for, including:
• Building factories to manufacture all of the things we used to import from overseas, but can no longer import.
• Maintaining roads and bridges.
• Maintaining the grid.
• Transporting raw materials from one end of the country to the other.
• Building new battery powered cars.
There would simply not be enough resources to go around, since the resources we will have will be those within the country itself, plus a few imports. Financing is also likely to be a problem, because of the lack of long-term loans. Most of the infrastructure development would need to be undertaken by governments, because of financing issues.
13. If we need to use more manual labor to grow our food, how will that work? Right now it seems like there are a lot of huge farms.
I can think of two approaches that might be used to make the transition from large mechanized farms to farms using more manual labor. One approach is for the government to print lots of extra money, and use the extra money to buy up the large farms. The extra money will add to inflation. The government will then divide the large farms into small tracts, and assign families to the tracts.
A second approach would be to keep the farms intact, and assign people to work on the farms, much like serfs. The farm owner would assign people to tasks and keep a portion of the crops as his share.
Regardless of which approach is used, a large amount of housing will be needed in areas where farms are located. If existing houses are located in the area, they can be subdivided and used. If not, there will be a need for houses that can be built at low cost with local materials. I would expect homes would be built of local materials such as straw, sod, logs, or adobe. These new homes would lack amenities such as electricity, heat, and running water.
14. Which countries are likely to fare best in the transition to a scenario such as you describe?
The countries that are likely to do best in the transition are the ones whose economies are at a fairly low level currently, so that the people have the skills and the tools needed to grow local crops, and make clothing. It would be helpful for the countries to have fertile soil, adequate rain, and a relatively low population for the area available. It would be best for most people to already be living in the countryside or small towns, because it is doubtful that economies will be able to support large cities after the discontinuity.
Finally, it would be helpful for the countries not to be too affected by climate change. If climate change kills the native crops, there will be a huge problem.
15. What might a country do to prepare for life after the discontinuity?
If a scenario such as the one we have discussed takes place, the world will look much like it did before the industrial revolution in not too many years. Most products will be grown or produced locally. Foreign trade will play a minor role. The array of goods available will be much smaller than today. Finance will play a smaller role than today.
If a country is to prepare for a scenario such as this, one major thing that needs to be done now is to train people for life in a low energy world--teaching the many skills required. It would be helpful to collect open-pollinated seeds for grains, legumes, and vegetables suitable for each area. It may also be helpful to manufacture some tools and easy-to repair machinery for use in the future. A country may even want to re-build some older technology like grain mills powered by waterfalls and cotton gins, since these can be built to be fairly sustainable in the future.
If a scenario such as we are discussing happens in the next few years, spending time and money on attempts to extend our current lifestyle would be counterproductive. The decline would be so significant that we would not be able to maintain our new technologies in the years ahead.
Hopefully, a scenario such as what I have described will never happen. Thinking about it, and why it might or might not happen, can perhaps give us better insight as to how we should prepare for the years ahead.



Thank you for the very good Essays Gail.
I guess the scary thing is your essays come right at the time we are seeing some of the effects of Peak Oil Production in the Real world. As someone who looks for the writings on the wall, being a Science Fiction writer mostly, I have seen the changes and have been tracking them in a loose sort of way for a while now. Your points should shake up the thinking of most people and hopefully help guide the folks that control the purse strings of our world into doing actions that help rather than hinder our future.
I have written about what could be a glorious future, and some about what could be a terrible future, lets hope for something that we can live with rather than something they will use to scare kids around the campfires in the future's camping trips. I hope those campfires aren't all that is left of the world we now live in.
Charles E. Owens Jr.
http://jameshowardkunstler.typepad.com/clusterfuck_nation/2007/10/two-cl...
Our failures of leadership are comprehensive, including leadership in my nominal sector, journalism. For two weeks in a row, the price of oil on the futures markets has closed above $80-a-barrel, and for these two weeks The New York Times Sunday Business Section has failed to run one story on the consequences of oil rising into this uncharted territory of high price. Are the Times editors on crack? Surely $80-plus oil will thunder through the American economy.
http://www.culturechange.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...
-- we are past the point of "painless" return. We have so consistently and drastically overshot our sustainable consumption and population levels that returning to sustainable levels will necessarily involve significant lifestyle disruptions -- living standard degradation, population level reduction, and the possible loss of sovereignty; there can be no "soft landing."
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20070927-9999-1n27icemelt.html
Sewall said climate change is inevitable, even if no more greenhouses gases were added to the atmosphere.
“The average person should start thinking seriously about where their water comes from now, what they're doing with it, and where the water will come from in 10 to 20 years,” he said.
Barnett, the Scripps researcher, said the West's drought, no matter what its cause, has not received enough attention.
“I don't know why people don't take it more seriously,” he said. “We're not going to have enough water for what we're doing. Nobody's facing up to it.”
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
It is hard for people to deal with all of these issues. It is easier to talk about the latest entertainment, the latest scandal, or the presidential candidates.
BREAKING: BRITNEY LOSES CUSTODY OF HER CHILDREN!
BREAKING: BRITNEY SPEARS LATEST NUMBER 1 ON BILLBOARD!
;}
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
Gail, thank you for the work you put into this.
IMO while no one knows what exactly will happen and how it plays out, it is not too difficult to see that it will develop in quite unique ways in the US because there are stresses and fault lines that are not present collectively to the same degree and with the same attitude anywhere else.
It will also vary from place to place within the US.
As long as everyone has their personal or ideological horse in the race no one wants to hear tactical truths so to quite some extent everyone has to solve their own problems.
I think that despite the fault lines the national leadership will try very hard to hold the nation together, while it will be best for individual groups to control their own regions.
If it gets bad enough slow enough you might see something resembling Kosovo or Iraq.
The future is the whole point. I suspect the reality is that oil and its alternatives will continue fill the needs and the market pricing will determine the speed of change if a sudden long term run up can be avoided.
I think Gail is right that the attention needs given to the import issue and the credit market problems ahead of "peak oil" idea.
I suspect that the credit marketers and the bankers will get into trouble and that they will look to the government to bail them out. It seems the Federal Reserve is doing that already and if it gets to congress we will be paying to save those skins for decades. See the http://newenergyandfuel.com/ review of this article on Oct 1 for more details. I bet we can't cleanly close up those creditors and get on with normal business and life.
Thanks for linking to your review of this article. It is titled Fun with Doom and Gloom.
I don't know why other folks aren't thinking through where all this could lead. We have gotten so used to imports and globalization, that we just assume they will continue in their current form forever.
The credit market has mushroomed to include all kinds of derivatives and securitized sliced and diced debt. It seems like the whole system needs to shrink to a small fraction of its current size.
Thanks for your article, Gail. I tend to see this as a motivator to get on with the future of more and better conserved oil and whatever alternatives can come and to get ready for the crash of the credit marketers without the citizens getting creamed by saving their skins. I think the economy could handle the credit crash or an enormous oil price spike independently but together they would be a world catastrophe, much as the article makes clear.
You are exactly right that the credit markets gone mushroom, a lot like an atom bombs cloud. It needs returned to reality and decent behavior, hopefully a sensible congress would address it but the twin risks of the lobbyists making things even worse or a regulatory framework that comes loaded against the consumer keep me from looking that way.
Let's just bankrupt them like anybody else. Then the survivors would learn something.
I don't know how useful it is, but I see the problem in two parts. There is a failure to reach the intellectual level, and there is a failure to reach the emotional level. We see these failures as CRABS, and the UNDEAD.
CRABS, the Classic Retarded American Blank Stare that you receive when you try to address these issues with those unfamiliar. The issues are complex, wide, and deep, and most people can't even begin to put what we try to convey into any personally relevant context.
And the UNDEAD, the Universally Neglected and Deceived, Empty of the American Dream. These people largely don't care about the serious issues because they are largely unable to care. After X number of years of being sold false promises and exaggerated claims about a bill of goods that included suburbia, upward mobility, and a prosperous future, or having been continually pushed down, ignored, and lied to on their attempts at climbing Mount Capitalism, they are now perpetually discouraged and unfeeling. These people would agree with George Carlin's observation, "It's called the American Dream, 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it."
Why aren't other people thinking things through thoroughly? The issues are extremely complex and people don't take the time, or they have scant energy left to care about anything except getting through today.
And I think the way to address this problem is counter-intuitive.
How do you get people who don't care, to care? How do you get people who don't think enough, to think enough? By addressing their weak spots, the counter-intuitive part. The person who doesn't care has weak spots in how they think that can be addressed. The person who doesn't think enough has weak spots in how they care that also can be addressed.
I don't know what to do about someone who appears to neither think about the problem, nor care about it.
Nice. How to do "it"?
See Mandela, Gandhi, MLK for details.
And wait until the Empire suffers a defeat
to implement.
And expect to get shot for your efforts.
It's no accident that MLK was shot in Memphis
organizing the garbage workers.
http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/iron_fist.html
It is beyond my ability or purpose here to describe a world where a true market system could have developed without such state intervention. A world in which peasants had held onto their land and property was widely distributed, capital was freely available to laborers through mutual banks, productive technology was freely available in every country without patents, and every people was free to develop locally without colonial robbery, is beyond our imagination. But it would have been a world of decentralized, small-scale production for local use, owned and controlled by those who did the work--as different from our world as day from night, or freedom from slavery.
THE SUBSIDY OF HISTORY
Accordingly, the single biggest subsidy to modern corporate capitalism is the subsidy of history, by which capital was originally accumulated in a few hands, and labor was deprived of access to the means of production and forced to sell itself on the buyer's terms. The current system of concentrated capital ownership and large-scale corporate organization is the direct beneficiary of that original structure of power and property ownership, which has perpetuated itself over the centuries.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
http://politics.reddit.com/info/2vcp4/comments
if you are so inclined...
Gail, Here's a couple of articles to tell you what the RICH are doing about it. No not a Rainwater moving to a small town thing. They are getting out while the getting is good.
So rich he wants to start his own country
http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2007/09/so-rich-he-want.html
and this one from Doug Casey
The Greater Depression - UPDATE
by Doug Casey
http://www.safehaven.com/article-8498.htm
The landed rich can't leave the
US.
We're all in this together.
And about farming.
Gail is describing the landowner as a sharecropper.
Sharecroppers were little more than indentured slaves.
The wheat fields will be burned (before harvest)
before that happens.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
Perhaps someone can come up with a more favorable scenario wtih respect to how land is treated. I could think of less favorable ones as well - just taking the land without compensation; or trumping up charges to jail the landowner. We take property rights for granted. I hope we can continue to do so in the future.
You are spot on here, Gail. Most of us forget just how fundamental property rights are to our modern way of life. Indeed, it was property rights that were at the center of the foundation of the modern day nation states.
The maintenance of property rights is entirely dependent on the existence of a legitimate authority to enforce them.
I must confess, however, that I am not as big a fan of property rights as they currently exist as you are. I would like to see a collapse in the belief in private property and the rise of communal rights of appropriate use without ownership.
Defining property and property rights will be fundamental to the shape of the world we create post oil.
"We take property rights for granted. I hope we can continue to do so in the future."
There's just this huge disconnect.
I just conversed with my family who were out watching
a six row cotton picker traversing a field.
http://www.usfarmer.com/listingimg/1/1/9/0/6/1/content/images/usforg_Bos...
Imagine going back to hand picking cotton to feel the disconnect.
IMHO Government will not be buying farmland.
And it seems you're implying the Soviet Collective
as well as Stalin making war on the Kulaks over
"hoarding".
There are so many variables here.
Think electric submersible wells-
"We have 12-inch wells with pumps set 80 to 100 feet deep and pump 1,200 gallons per minute."
W/O AC these wells are useless.
How cities react to this year's lack of wheat
and the fight over eliminating US Farm Subsidies
this Winter will go a long way in foretelling.
The International Grains Council reduced its forecasts for global and Australian wheat production substantially on Thurday. The ICG cut its global wheat production forecast from from 607m tonnes to just 601m tonnes and slashed its estimate for Australian output to 13.5m tons. This is 2m tonnes below the most recent forecast from the Australian government and 9m tonnes lower than last month’s estimate by the ICG.
Wheat stocks for the five largest global exporters are forecast to fall to a 34-year low of 25m tonnes.
In other words lowest ever.
In terms of actual wheat on hand and per capita.
Sincerely yours,
James
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
Pumps are not difficult to keep operating. Diesel engines can be replaced by electric motors. Stationary devices are generally easier to keep working than mobile devices because you can run electric wires to stationary devices.
We in the United States expect the rule of the law to be in effect. Yes, even with the poison from the disloyal Christian Right spreading through the system at high levels we groundlings still have some deeply ingrained expectations.
Reading and responding here is about changing one's expectations and I often see people arguing one point or another, yet holding many other implicit assumptions steady. This is the first time I've seen the long term viability of the rule of the law called into question. I think this going out from under us is going to be as big a change as the end to our expectation of cheap energy. A quarter of the population, those with that authoritarian personality, will simply go along with whatever new system evolves (heh, evolution), but the rest ... we are the descendants of those who wouldn't put up with it, now aren't we?
The possibility of descent into feudalism pops up here and there in conversations, but the mechanics of that are that a landed elite provides a measure of security and stability in a given geographic area. Those who are the financial elite today may have some of the tools in today's terms to set up such a thing, but if they don't have the foresight to do it now don't imagine they'll rise to the top after an implosion. The skills needed to move funny money around to one's advantage don't translate into those needed for ruling a fiefdom from horseback.
Ask this question of those here who dwell in rural areas now - "What structure will your government have when the federal level collapses and the state is constrained by expensive fuel and low revenues?"
Very good.
"The skills needed to move funny money around to one's advantage don't translate into those needed for ruling a fiefdom from horseback.
Ask this question of those here who dwell in rural areas now - "What structure will your government have when the federal level collapses and the state is constrained by expensive fuel and low revenuues."
Exactly what I've been studying
since '78.
I've got stories of "coupons" issued to the Mercantile.
Panic of '07, Going to Memphis, scavenging Trolley car change
to complete land deals.
Whoever can get the crops grown and out to the mills
will be take over.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
What structure? Martial "law". Blackwater. Petraeus' divided communities. Travel restrictions. Probably all sorts of stuff done under misnomer of "public health emergency".
Blackwater is playing games in Iraq compared to what
they'll have to do with my state.
AAMOF, I expect to be meeting/hearing about BW Spec Ops
from my state of AR.
All of a sudden BW mercs will be defending instead of
relocating.
Completely different scenario.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
It does seem like Iraq is a good picture of one future possibility for the USA. Lots of angry people with guns just shooting each other without much discernable structure to the mayhem. Worst of all the government!
This is the first time I've seen the long term viability of the rule of the law called into question.
No, its been questioned before. One poster (who never came back) was asking for e-mails so s/he would have a list of names to start a revolution, and the occasional 'I'm gonna go into the woods, forage for food and you all will die' posters.
I have no doubt there will be rule of law - I just doubt what the law will BE. Oh, and how much short brown sticky end of the stick will I be grabb'n.
Sacred: The rule of law usually applies in the USA, but not always. During Katrina, a group of Canadian tourists were staying at an upscale hotel. The hotel hired a bus to transport them out of harm's way. The bus was stopped by local police (at gunpoint) and the tourists were forced off the bus (they didn't know what the local police did with the bus). They huddled together on a street in New Orleans overnight-can't remember what happened to them after that but IMHO this was a preview of what parts of the USA will be like when TSHF.
One problem is that we have become accustomed to thinking of land with a mortgage as 'our' land, and I imagine that most land, both residential and farm, has some kind of lien against it. This
story in the NY Times gives some chilling stories about how lenders can jerk you around and not only take 'your' land but destroy your livelihood.
Even if you own your land free of lender liens, there are always property taxes. At least there is the possibility here of taxpayers joining together and using the ballot box to keep the taxes from going too outrageous.
Get out of debt.
Keep after it like a mantra, until you are.
It's the 80/20 Principle writ large.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
I don't want to sound insensitive, and I certainly have no love for the giant mortgage corporations, but the people in the article have no one to blame but themselves.
Jane bought her house for $298k in 1998. In 2006 her principal was up to $442k!!! By this time she had an interest rate of 11% with payments of $5200/month. No wonder she couldn't afford the house! Accrued interest and penalties add up really quickly at 11%! Is it Countrywide's fault she didn't pay?
Zena lost her job and had to take a new one paying 50% less. Yet it's Countrywide's fault that she refinanced to an interest only loan at 10.9% and now has only $600/month after she makes her mortgage payment?
The moral: Live within your means.
G
ggg71,
I just wanted to point out that on an individual level, you are right, but on a national level you are not. This is a broad observation, not a personal attack against you. I just hear moral recommendations bandied about all the time as if they are a solution. One of my good friends from college used to say "If everyone just behaved like me there wouldn't be any problem." True, so true it isn't even worth mentioning.
It's Jane's problem to the extent that she is going to lose her house and her credit rating.
It's Countrywide's problem to the extent that they aren't getting paid.
Both Jane and the bank should have made better choices. As far a Jane and the bank are concerned the moral: Live within your means. makes a lot of sense.
But, multiply that by millions:
It's the nation's problem to the extent that there are bankrupt people and a collapsed financial system.
Now it is no longer a moral question of individual actions. It is a society wide question of systems and organization.
As an example: Kids in inner city schools.
Growing up on the low end of the financial spectrum in an underfunded inner city school means that little Johnny has to work extra hard to get good grades to get a scholarship in order to afford college. Little Johnny has been told this several times. If he goes to jail in a decade for dealing drugs, it will be because he made a poor choice.
But, the state has to have a prison to put him in. It has to be built before he gets arrested, so the state sends someone to the inner city school. He takes a look around. He makes notes about the average income, quality of education, social cohesion, etc. And he tells the state how many prisons they are going to need in ten years.
The state planner makes this recommendation based on very accurate statistical model (called a bell curve) and it work something like this: Most people are average, some are above and some are below.
Given the circumstances here at this inner city school he expects very little to come of the average person, he expects the below average ones to go to jail and the above average ones to escape to something else.
Little Johnny is going to be average. His children are going to go to the same school he did. One of Johnny's friends is going to Penn State and one of them is going to the state pen.
This pattern will persist as long as the average income, social cohesion, quality of education, etc. remain the same. You can lecture the inner city school kids about morality 'till you are blue in the face and the statistical outcome will remain unchanged. If, however, you change the system, then you can expect different results.
On an individual level it is appropriate to talk about morality and common sense because individuals make specific decisions. On a society wide level it is appropriate to talk about systems and structures because groups have a distribution of outcomes based on incentives and circumstances.
Tim
Edit: changed fault to problem, bank to Countrywide, added summary, and made one paragraph into two.
I blame the teachers. They should drill basic concepts into their students heads, like, "don't sign contracts you don't understand", "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch", and "sometimes advertising is misleading". The last one was specifically taught in my early '80s grade 6 home economics class. I suppose it was an echo of the '70's oil crunch.
If home economics--basic budgeting, simple cooking skills, nutrition, comparison shopping--were taught properly, the US would be much better off. Exactly right, ggg71-- live within your means.
Unfortunately, many of us were taught by teachers who grew up when energy was free and there were still opportunities; those teachers never needed to know about thrift, and never taught it.