DrumBeat: September 26, 2007
Posted by Leanan on September 26, 2007 - 9:03am
Topic: Miscellaneous
Market Eyeing What OPEC Does, Doesn`t Pump
Ministers didn`t overtly play up the method for arriving at the new production ceiling. As with the output cuts agreed last October and December, intended to take 1.7 million barrels a day from the market, OPEC pegged the baseline for the cuts to market reckoning of the group`s output, not outdated formal output quotas.But in an unexpected step, OPEC ministers have released a new list of national output allocations that shake to their core some claims of recent production levels. OPEC had fudged the details of prior deals by only quoting the volumes of reductions, or the level of the new collective output ceiling.
We are being drawn in at least three directions by suspicions of an impending apocalypse. The "business as usual" denial that has been the dominant response until recently is giving way to nihilism, fundamentalism and activism. My intention is to explain the way that people, individually and collectively, can respond very differently to the same perceptions of threat and hazard.
Saudi Arabia rules out revaluation of currency
Saudi Arabia on Wednesday ruled out revaluing its dollar-pegged riyal saying currency stability was important for investors in the world's largest oil exporter, and would be concerned if the dollar fell 'substantially.'
Iran gets over 70% oil income in non-US currencies
Iran has boosted the income it gets from crude oil sales in non-US dollar currencies to more than 70 percent, an oil official said.A switch in payment by Nippon Oil and other Japanese refiners to yen has helped the Islamic Republic towards its goal of maximising oil revenue in currencies other than the dollar while the greenback stays weak.
U.S. GAO to Study Effects of Refinery Outages
The U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) will next month begin a study on how refinery outages, anticipated and unintended, affect fuel prices.
Big Oil`s Project Costs No Longer Sticker Shock for Wall St
In 2005, Royal Dutch Shell PLC (RDSA) disclosed a cost overrun of roughly $10 billion at its giant Sakhalin 2 project in Russia, a disclosure that shocked the market and embarrassed the oil giant.Last week, after much delay and hand-wringing over swelling costs, Shell and partner Saudi Aramco green-lighted a $7 billion project to expand the jointly-owned Motiva Enterprises LLC refinery in Port Arthur Texas. Motiva had previously estimated the project cost at $3.8 billion.
Fistfuls of cash, and spending it badly
PrimeWest, one of the country's largest energy trusts, which yesterday sold for $5-billion to a state-controlled company from Abu Dhabi. Yes, the sheiks of the Middle East are coming after our oil and gas, and far from being a national disaster, it's a blessing, if these are the prices they're willing to pay. Dumb money can be a beautiful thing.
Brazil has experienced rapidly expanding oil, natural gas, and electricity consumption in recent years.
India: Produce or perish, Oil Ministry tells ONGC
Oil and Natural Gas Corp, nation's largest oil and gas producer, will become a marginal player if it did not set right its priorities and produce more hydrocarbons, Oil Ministry has warned the state-run firm.In a stinker of a message at the firm's Strategy Meet at Agra on August 25-26, Petroleum Secretary MS Srinivasan said ONGC should stick to its core business of producing hydrocarbons and not divert resources for diversification plans like power and refinery projects.
Uganda, Congo boats clash on oil-rich lake
The Ugandan army exchanged fire with a Congolese boat on oil-rich Lake Albert and several people were killed and wounded in the clash, officials said Tuesday.Accounts of Monday's incident differed, with the U.N. saying six died and the Ugandan army putting the toll at one dead. The lake has long been a source of tension between Congo and Uganda.
Gaia guru urges ocean pipes to fix Earth's climate
A series of giant pipes in the oceans to mix surface and deeper water could be an emergency fix for the Earth's damaged climate system, the scientist behind the Gaia theory said on Wednesday.James Lovelock, whose Gaia hypothesis that planet Earth is a living entity has fuelled controversy for three decades, thinks the stakes are so high that radical solutions must be tried -- even if they ultimately fail.
Calls grow for EU biofuel rethink
The influential European Economic and Social Committee (EESC) is this week expected to call on the European Commission to reassess its target for ensuring 10 percent of road fuels come from biofuels by 2020.
Lula's push for biofuel criticised
Environmentalists and farmers have criticised Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, the Brazilian president, for promoting the use of biofuels as the answer to global warming.
Biodiesel boom heading toward Wall Street
These days biodiesel isn't just good for the environment - it's good for the bottom line. The U.S. market for the combustible stuff has more than doubled every year since 2004 and will hit $1 billion this year. The number of retail pumps nationwide has grown from 350 in 2005 to more than 1,000 today.
ASPO 6. In Praise of… #3. Ray Leonard.
Ray Leonard of the Kuwait Energy Company was the speaker who, for me, stole the show. He offered, prefaced with a few caveats, insights from within the oil industry, setting out how what the oil industry tells the public and what it actually thinks are very different. One got a sense from listening to Leonard of the degree of profound unease behind closed oil company doors, as year after year they have to downsize their declared reserves and find themselves less and less able to be optimistic.
'Tips' for employees spark ire in automobile industry
In a time when $3-plus gas prices are looking more and more inevitable in the summer, and when some are pointing to vehicle emissions as potential contributors to climate change, it seems like a sensible, helpful subject to cover. But when HHS put forth some recommendations of specific car models, it sparked some ire in the cradle of the domestic auto industry.Michigan’s entire 15-member delegation to the U.S. House of Representatives wrote HHS head Mike Leavitt to express alarm at the recommendations.
“The memo advises employees to buy smaller sedans instead of popular sport utility vehicles (SUVs); discusses how automobiles are responsible for air pollution, oil spills, pollution of our water supplies and damage to natural habitats; and includes a “Top 12” list that fails to include any vehicle made by a U.S. automobile manufacturer,” wrote the House members.
Bingaman, Rahall Press Interior on Royalty Management
Prominent House and Senate Democrats are pressing Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne to respond to "troubling questions" about royalty management they say are raised in a new report by the Interior Department's inspector general.The report points to "conflicting roles and relationships with the energy industry" at Interior's Minerals Management Service and "systemic communication failures" that stymie federal auditors' royalty collection efforts, according to a letter to Kempthorne sent yesterday from Sen. Jeff Bingaman (D-N.M.) and Rep. Nick Rahall (D-W.Va.). They chair the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee and the House Natural Resources Committee, respectively.
Private sector and toll financing can help with funding new roads and bridges
Like most states these days, Oklahoma faces a serious shortage of funds to maintain, repair, and expand its highway system. The principal highway funding sources — state and federal fuel taxes — have not kept pace with inflation, rising construction costs or the extent of driving.One alternative to either doing nothing or sharply increasing fuel taxes is to use toll finance to pay for new lanes and new roads in areas where demand is greatest. Other states and other countries have had considerable success with public-private partnerships for such toll projects. This is an alternative Oklahoma should seriously explore.
Smaller Oil Companies Fuel UK's North Sea Revival
Tax changes and investment incentives are transforming the landscape of Britain's North Sea -- reinvigorating Europe's second-largest oil basin after Norway and raising hopes that its long decline may slow.The revival has taken many in the industry by surprise, because when the government in 2005 announced it would raise taxes on oil production, big international companies warned the move would discourage investments.
Cost, abuse and danger of the dollar
Oil buyers from all over the world hand over their yens, crowns, francs and other currencies. They receive greenbacks in return. With those dollars they go and buy oil in the OPEC-countries. The OPEC-countries will spend the money again. Of course, they can do that in the US, but also in all other countries in the world. Everybody wants dollars, for everybody will need oil again.
Budget rapped in probe of Mexico blasts
Interior Minister Francisco Ramirez Acuña told a congressional hearing Tuesday that a series of sharp cutbacks at Mexico's top intelligence service has hindered authorities in their efforts against a leftist guerrilla group that has been bombing oil pipelines.
Nepal: Acute fuel adulteration taking its toll
Fuel adulteration has become acute even as shortage and black marketing of petrol remains unabated since the past three weeks.Automobile engineers and senior technicians at leading workshops in Kathmandu Valley said they are attending to adulteration-caused damages as never before. Consumers lamented that even the few liters of petrol they manage to get hold of is costing them dearly in terms of maintenance and repairs.
Ghana: Bakers Protest Against Hike in Flour Price
According to the Public Affairs Officer of the company, Adwoa Mensima Sey, the increase became necessary due to a 35% increase in wheat prices internationally over the last few months largely due to the demand for products like wheat and maize for the production of bio-diesel fuel.
Kazakh Lawmakers OK Bill So Govt Can Break Oil Deals
Kazakhstan's lower house of parliament Wednesday approved a bill that gives the state more power over contracts on subsurface resource use, Russian news agency Interfax reported.The bill, which amends the law on subsurface deposits and their use, allows the state to revise the terms of a contract at a strategic deposit if the economic interests of the state have been impacted, Interfax said.
Nuclear, Biofuel, Oil Sands Needed to Cut Emissions, Shell Says
Governments must allow energy companies to produce fuels from all sources as lawmakers find the best solution to curb emissions blamed for climate change, a Royal Dutch Shell Plc executive said.Wind farms are expensive, nuclear stations have difficulty dealing with waste, biofuels boost food prices and oil sands produce even higher emissions than oil, James Smith, chairman of Shell's U.K. unit, said yesterday in Oxford, England.
"Energy demand is going to continue to accelerate," Smith told a climate debate held by the Association of Masters of Business Administration, an educational and networking group. If lawmakers reject some energy sources, "we won't get anything left."
A conference held in Cork, Ireland by the Association for the Study of Peak oil and Gas (ASPO) last week heard representatives from industry forecast that the best data available data pointed to reserves of 250 billion barrels of yet-to-find global conventional oil, and as a result oil production would plateau at less than 100 million barrels per day before 2020. This was followed up by a range of speakers who stated that current trends in bringing new projects onstream indicate that global oil production would peak on or before 2012, a forecast that coincides with the latest announcement from International Energy Agency that an oil crunch will occur by 2012.
Global Warming and Peak Oil doomsdayers have a certain perverse fondness for trumpeting the latest "point of no return." We have only ten years to regulate this or fifteen years to phase out that in order to avert future catastrophe and the subsequent end of all good things. Of course, the goalposts shift, as they necessarily must when doomsday fails to arrive.
Pennsylvania: To reach strategy for the future, compromise will be necessary
Most members of the Leg islature, regardless of party, recognize that America's modern society is built on cheap energy and that our entire way of life is perilously dependent on some of the most unstable regions of the world. More than 60 percent of the nation's petroleum is imported....And there may be a few at the state Capitol who are familiar with the concept of "peak oil," which posits that the world is at or near the point of producing the maximum level of conventional oil even as the demand for oil continues to grow, especially in China, India and other rapidly developing countries, which portends steeply higher prices.
Court to Consider Energy Rate Cases
The Supreme Court said Tuesday it will rule on two cases involving electricity contracts that a Nevada power company and a county in Washington state seek to invalidate because they were signed at the height of the 2000-2001 Western energy crisis.
The Fresno City Council approved testing for a proposed nuclear power plant, even though construction of one is prohibited under state law.
Albania's dilemma: produce energy or protect the environment?
Albania's Sali Berisha says thermal power plants are the best way to meet the country's energy needs. But plans to build such a facility at a top tourist destination have local residents crying foul.
Higher Utility Bills Face Homeowners
Despite the pleasant early autumn weather warming much of the country, sky-high heating costs are in store this winter and many of the nation's households are in the grips of a home energy crisis, says a coalition of state officials, the AARP, and the nation's natural gas utilities. The group is calling on the Bush administration to release $151.5 million in federal emergency assistance funds to help poor households.Most of the funds in this contingency pot will disappear, under the program enacted by Congress, if they are not released by September 30. Some 1.2 million U.S. households were disconnected from electric and natural gas service this summer due to failure to pay utility bills, says the National Energy Assistance Directors' Association. The average delinquent family's unpaid bill is $850, a sum that typically must be paid before it can be reconnected for the winter.
What's behind Myanmar's painful oil and gas price rise?
Public anger at sudden, steep fuel price rises in Myanmar in August triggered protests which have swelled into the largest demonstrations against the military junta in 20 years. Here are some facts on the country's energy policy and reserves.
Rebels threaten Candian oil firm in northeast India
A separatist group in India's restive northeast warned Canadian and Indian oil firms against carrying out exploration work in the region.
Saudi budget surplus hits record on surging oil prices
Oil powerhouse Saudi Arabia announced on Wednesday a record budget surplus of more than 77 billion dollars for 2006 thanks to surging crude prices.The surplus of 290 billion riyals (77.5 billion dollars), unveiled in the central bank's annual report, compares with initial forecasts of a 14.7 billion dollar surplus and a final figure of 58 billion dollars in 2005.
Now, Peak Oil may be very familiar to you as a Whiskey reader, but another peak phenomenon may not — Peak Food. Russia recently announced it may curtail wheat exports due to low global stockpiles and that has sent wheat to above $9, driving everything from bread to pasta exponentially higher. The worst could be yet to come.I have to go chop some more wood for our stoves now. Really, I'm serious. Peak Oil is here. Peak Food will be here soon, too.
Scientist casts doubt over 'clean' coal
A leading scientist fears the federal government's clean energy target will be dominated by unproven clean coal technology.Australian Academy of Science president Kurt Lambeck said the technology is 20 years away, and even then, would have limitations in curbing carbon emissions.
Investors urge action on climate change
Bill Clinton will be taking a leaf out of his political ally Al Gore's book on Monday as he takes part in the New York launch of a major study of large, global corporations' attitudes to climate change.
Australian PM downplays link between drought, climate change
Prime Minister John Howard warned against linking Australia's worst drought on record to doomsday forecasts about climate change Wednesday, saying "a sense of proportion" was needed.



I really enjoyed the essay Gail the Actuary researched and wrote the other day. Just my opinion, but I think the declining value of the US currency will worsen the supply/ demand effects of fossil fuels we discuss at TOD.
From the Interactive Investor article linked below:
"Yesterday, Federal Reserve Bank of Philadelphia president Charles Plosser said the recent decision to ease monetary policy does indeed have "the potential for aggravating inflation... there's no question about that"
http://www.iii.co.uk/news/?type=afxnews&articleid=6306233&subject=market...
The War on PBS
I haven't missed a minute of it yet. Thank TIVO.
It is as good a use of TV as I have seen (to paraphrase George Will on the Civil War).
Love to re-visit a time when "the derricks were wooden and the men were iron" as it were.
As opposed to what we are today.
FF
Indeed. It's been wonderful. I didn't realize how green/bad the Americans in North Africa were...that made me start thinking similarly about how soft we are now...
They played most of the "American Anthem" theme at the end of Part One, and it is the primary instrumental theme for the show. I thought that the highlighted portion of "American Anthem" is a good question for us to ask ourselves regarding how we use our remaining fossil fuel energy resources.
"American Anthem" Lyrics:
I've been watching closely as well. It is certainly the best historical documentary I've ever seen. Better than the Civil War because of the actual footage of film and the people who are still alive to talk about the war.
It's been very enlightening in many ways.
My father was German and was drafted into the U.S. Army in 1943 after coming to this country in 1929. The War provides good perspectives for Japanese Americans and African Americans, but for me, the role of German Americans is also of interest.
My father came to this country because of what happened in Germany after WWI. He walked right into New York and the great depression, and then watched as his new country got embroiled in a war with his old country and had to go and fight against them. Now that's rotten luck.
After the war he did manage to get on his feet and ended up having a descent life.
-Don
Jeffery, I'm like a dog with a bone with this question but it sits in the back of my mind now like a feather under my armpit (If you'll excuse the phrase).
I previously asked (and still had no credible counterargument)
Is demand destruction the achilles heel of your ELM and if not, why not? Answers on a postcard.
Marco.
A lot of the exporting countries are subsidizing internal consumption of oil products. As an example, demand destruction is unlikely in Venezeula as long as Hugo is in charge.
I am laughing becuse I made this point to someone yesterday. Further; that these subsidies are slowly being removed as these countries feel the pinch on their revenues from exports. Iran is the classis case. others are folling suit. I googled 'opec oil subsidies' yesterday and was suprised at the amount of headlines about countries removing their subsideies to their own population. Try google it yourself.
Marco.
I wouldn't laugh too loud. Internal subsidy is only part of the story-exporting countries' economies improve as oil prices rise-this improvement in the economy generates internal demand even without subsidy.
I'd add that at these high prices, which aren't going away, oil exporting countries are making boatloads of money, creating an expanding class of people who will be able to afford FFs regardless of subsidies. As with everyone else, it's supply that's the most important, and gov'ts that try to restrict supply to their own people to maintain the revenue stream from exports risk internal strife.
The BBC says the current crisis in Burma was precipitated by a hike in fuel prices. I don't think Burma is a producing nation but the government (junta) there is presumably reducing subsidies. Sign of the times. Interesting study for other countries who are export nations and thinking of reducing subsidies.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7014570.stm
Carbon UK
A lot of the exporting countries are subsidizing internal consumption of oil products. As an example, demand destruction is unlikely in USA as long as Cheney is in charge.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
mcgowanmc -
See my reply to BrianT above.
James Gervais
BrianT :-
If a government of a country that exports oil and/or natural gas sets an internal price below the world price, it is NOT necessarily a subsidy, unless the price charged doesn't pay for the exploration, production, refining, transportation, and marketing. The price of any substance or object is whatever the holder wants, and there is no reason why a government shouldn't treat it's own people better than foreigners. Too many people have bought into the bs of "the market knows best".
James Gervais
Marco,
As Brian noted, I expect to see revenue from export sales increasing, even as exports fall, because of rising oil prices. But I guess the key question is what price is charged to consumers in exporting countries, which will vary from country to country.
However, I think that it will be very difficult for governments in exporting countries to try to reduce domestic consumption when sales from exports are increasing. A case in point is Saudi Arabia, which is showing an accelerating increase in consumption, above 9%/year currently, according to Rembrandt.
In any case, even in the absence of any real increase in consumption, e.g. the UK, net exports can still crash--peak exports to zero in seven years in the UK.
I wouldn't be so smug. Oil prices have gone from $2 to over $80 since the first oil shock of the 1970's. Since then there has never been a single 5 year period where oil consumption has been less than in the previous 5 year period - despite increases in energy efficiency and substitution. Why? Because there is an extremely, almost 100% correlation between oil consumption and GDP growth. The unhappy truth is that this demand destruction you speak of, far from lowering oil consumption through conservation, would instead do so via recession, or as is more likely, recessions.
That's a 7x real increase in price, according to the BLS inflation calculator.
That's simply not true, at least according to EIA data on world oil demand.
Based on that data, the periods fitting your requirements are:
Correlation does not imply causation. Global GDP growth was positive in every one of the above years, and in the 10 years it took oil demand to get back to 1979's level, world GDP grew by about 25-30%.
So there's very little indication that the link is as strong as you suggest.
"Correlation does not imply causation. Global GDP growth was positive in every one of the above years, and in the 10 years it took oil demand to get back to 1979's level, world GDP grew by about 25-30%.
So there's very little indication that the link is as strong as you suggest."
I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'll bet most of the decrease in oil demand over those years was from increases in efficiency. There may have been a net increase in applied oil-based energy despite reduction in oil use after taking the improved efficiency into account, and this is what should be used to determine the strength of the link to GDP.
Saudi budget surplus ..
Mr Naimi, the Saudi oil minister and de-facto OPEC chairman complains about "policies that discourage the use of petroleum products [that] put an unfair burden on Saudi Arabia in the fight against climate change".
He would like importing countries to "ensure appropriate solutions 'while maintaining the continued growth of the global economy.'"
So he wants us to consume more oil, but burn less?
Meets his usual standard of logic.
Do I sense a veiled threat from Mr Naimi?
No company on earth is in theory able to dictate that others do not move away from his product or be compensated for people doing so (well a monopoly could in theory, but there would be nothing to move to).
Companies just price lower, if there are other, cheaper alternatives or less demand
But then again, oil is not a freely traded market commodity in that sense.
AND, Aramco is no ordinary company nor is OPEC an ordinary group.
What are they insinuating that they will do, if the importing countries will buy less of their goods?
Keep limiting the production faster than exports fall, in order to hike up the prices and compensate for the reduced exports?
If Naimi's comments are more than just propaganda or acts of desperation, this is going to get really interesting.
Then again, I'm really curious as to where does he thiink that this sudden large scale reduction of petroleum products comes from?
Bio-fuels? Don't make me laugh :)
His argument is logical; our conduct is not. We are pushing development of alternatives (in a pathetic kind of way) while demanding KSA increase their production capacity at tremendous cost to them. By the time their new capacity comes on line, we reduce our usage because we have brought on alternatives. They have just wasted a lot of money.
But then, superficially, most of their arguments about why they aren't increasing production make sense.
But their threat is not to increase capacity so we get hurt in the short-run. Now coincidentally, that decision not to increase capacity for all of the reasons given (weak dollar, market well-supplied, KSA's products aren't selling, etc., etc.) masks any inability of KSA to actually increase production.
Yes, but our efforts to increase production of alternatives (or to reduce consumption) are being driven largely (at least in the US) by the high price of oil. Had they simply kept oil at $30 by pumping more, they would not be in this mess.
I wonder how Mr. Naimi would feel if the US just adopted European-style petrol taxes?
He has actually commented on European gasoline taxes and suggested that in light of current prices (which of course do not reflect market funadamentals) that the European governments reveiw their tax strategies to take pressure off the poor in Europe. What a thoughtful guy.
The link above “Are we heading for Peak Food?” is very good. Of course we are headed for peak food. Peak oil means peak food, after a few years lag. However peak oil is not the only thing causing peak food. There are the changing weather patterns, desertification, falling water tables limiting irrigation, rivers drying up and a host of other things.
The simultaneity of all these things should cause absolute panic. However no one seems to notice, most everyone seems to think “we will figure out something to fix everything”. Of course we will not because there is no fix. There may be a few things that we can do that might mitigate the problem, but nothing can fix it. And anyway, it is very unlikely that any mitigating steps will be made. Peak food, then sharply declining food will bitch slap us right in the face when we least expect it.
Peak oil means peak food….after a short lag time. Peak food means peak people….after a short lag time.
Ron Patterson
No. It will be a very long lag time until the Earth reaches peak population. The current global life expectancy is 65 yrs. Countries with life expectancies in the low to mid 30s are still increasing population. A guesstimate is that global population will keep climbing until ave life expectancy reaches 35 yrs-this is a long way after peak food supply.
And whose guesstimate is that Brian?
Countries with a life expectancy in the mid thirties are still growing in population, (but just barely), because they are still popping out babies like they are going out of style. And most of these babies are surviving because there is still food to keep them alive, (again just barely.)
You are looking at what is happening right now, not at what must happen when the food supply starts to drop. People cannot survive without food! It is as simple as that.
And by the way, the reason the average life expectancy is dropping so dramatically in most of these countries is because of AIDS. AIDS takes mostly older sexually active people. A lack of food takes everyone but it affects the very old and the very young the most. And since there are no very old in these countries, lower food supply will affect primarily the very young, those least able to hunt of beg for food.
Ron Patterson
I don't think there's any country where life expectancy is really that low, and very few where it is even close.
The more scholars refine their studies, the lower incidence of AIDS they find (not that it isn't still far too high).
try Zimbabwe. man lives 37 woman 34 (from CIA fact book)
That is not a very reliable source: for example, it differs from the figures offered by national statistical offices, even in countries with developed record keeping, and does so without explanation or argument. It would be better called the CIA guess book.
This country appears to be eating about 300 Billion calories too many each day, if the fat asses in SUVs dropping their fat kids off at school is any indication.
I'm SURE we can spare some calories.
One interesting evolutionary phenomenon is the development of smaller critters when there is long-term food (or maybe just any environmental) stress on a population. There's fossil evidence in everything from shrinking snails in gradually drying wetlands, to the small hippos that lived at one time on islands in the Mediterranean.
It isn't just that their growth is stunted, either. The Darwinian tendency is for survival of smaller individuals, while the larger (therefore hungrier) individuals disappear from the record.
| The problem will solve itself.
| But not in a nice way.
This is indeed interesting, in that it is a form of Lamarkian inheritance. People who are stunted through malnutrition in childhood have small children even if they are well fed. The effect wears off after a few generations. It works by methylation of dna sequences in the sperm/eggs affecting gene expression in future generations. It is a fine-tuning of Darwinian evolution, not a contradiction of it.
No. In 6 weeks 99% of a population is dead w/o
food.
The Ozzie's wheat production last year was 9.8 million tons.
I had thought it was 14.
This year's will be close to 5.5 million tons.
If this number comes in Australia will have trouble feeding it's own people, much less exporting.
Soy about to hit $10. Wheat back above $9 today.
Arkansaw of Samuel L Clemens
Have you guys considered the possibility that you are arguing from emotion rather than logic?