The Politics of Biofuels

In response to a recent query from an independent student newspaper in the UK, I wrote up an editorial piece on the politics of biofuels. That essay is reproduced below the fold. (The original can be found here.)

One of the intentions was to point out for European readers why the U.S. and the EU have begun to diverge on their biofuel policies. In the U.S. this is mostly a political issue, because our primary biofuel is home grown. In the EU, biofuels are mostly imported, so the EU can take a more objective view.

Introduction

Government policies often generate unintended consequences. This has turned out to be the case with the aggressive biofuel policies pursued over recent years by the European Union and the United States. While the EU was developing action plans and setting targets to promote biofuels, many states in the U.S. - especially those with high levels of corn (maize) production - were enforcing mandates to turn that corn into ethanol.

Superficially, this may sound like a great idea. The world obviously can't continue forever down the path of fossil fuels. Global Warming is a serious concern worldwide. Much of the remaining fossil fuel resources are located in areas hostile to the West. What better way to address these concerns than a movement toward renewable fuels? Furthermore, if the market won't encourage that move because of poor economics, wouldn't it make sense for governments to be proactive and force a move to biofuels? Of course this is the path we have taken, but we didn't sufficiently consider the potential consequences before doing so.

Criticisms

While corn farmers and palm oil plantation owners have been elated by the policies, critics have warned all along about the short-sightedness of these policies. Some, like Cornell Professor David Pimentel and Berkeley Professor Tad Patzek, argued that a full life-cycle analysis showed that most biofuels are actually net energy negative - that is it takes more fossil fuel energy to produce biofuels like ethanol than is returned in the process. This assertion, if true, would imply that expansion of biofuels would actually increase greenhouse gas emissions. However, Professors Pimentel and Patzek have their own critics, who assert that their studies made flawed assumptions.

But the criticisms of the rush into biofuels didn't stop there. Some argued that the diversion of grains and edible oils away from food and toward biofuels had the potential to starve the poor. The United States Department of Agriculture, longtime staunch supporters of the biofuels expansion, published a study that concluded that the policies of the U.S. and the EU would raise prices across the food sector. Lester Brown, the president of the Earth Policy Institute - a group that advocates environmental sustainability - famously noted in a Washington Post opinion piece that "the grain required to fill a 25-gallon SUV gas tank with ethanol would feed one person for a full year." Brown further wrote:

"Plans for new ethanol distilleries and biodiesel refineries are announced almost daily, setting the stage for an epic competition. In a narrow sense, it is one between the world's supermarkets and its service stations. More broadly, it is a battle between the world's 800 million automobile owners, who want to maintain their mobility, and the world's 2 billion poorest people, who simply want to survive."

Thus, at best the critics suggested that the impact of biofuels policies would increase food prices. Worse, biofuel mandates may be mandates for starving the poor.

Additional criticisms emerged. It soon became clear that the new policies were resulting in land usage changes. Grassland was turned into farmland, and tropical forests into palm plantations. As a result of EU-fueled demand for palm oil, Indonesia was destroying peat bogs to make room for new plantations, and this greatly increased their greenhouse gas emissions. This move reportedly made Indonesia the third largest greenhouse gas polluter.

In the U.S., former ethanol proponents such as Dan Kammen and Alex Farrell of the Energy and Resources Group at UC Berkeley have recently abandoned their position that corn ethanol is environmentally beneficial. In a January 12, 2008 memo to California regulators attempting to tackle greenhouse gas emissions in the transport sector, they wrote:

“Simply said, ethanol production today using U.S. corn contributes to the conversion of grasslands and rainforest to agriculture, causing very large GHG emissions. Even if only a small fraction of the emissions calculated in this crude way [through land use change] are added to estimates of direct emissions for corn ethanol, total emissions for corn ethanol are higher than for fossil fuels.”

A pair of studies in the current issue of Science was apparently the basis for their change of heart. The Wall Street Journal reported on the studies:

While the U.S. and others race to expand the use and production of biofuels, two new studies suggest these gasoline alternatives actually will increase carbon-dioxide levels.

A study published in the latest issue of Science finds that corn-based ethanol, a type of biofuel pushed heavily in the U.S., will nearly double the output of greenhouse-gas emissions instead of reducing them by about one-fifth by some estimates.

"Even if we're dramatically wrong, it's hard to get to a result that says you get a benefit over 50 years," said Timothy Searchinger, a researcher at Princeton University and a co-author of the paper on corn-based ethanol.

In the second study, researchers found that . . . draining and clearing peatlands in Malaysia and Indonesia to grow palm oil emits so much CO2 that palm biodiesel from those fields would have to be burned for more than 420 years to counteract it.

I made my own criticisms, on several fronts. I criticized what I felt were misleading energy balance studies, which inflated the attraction of corn ethanol. I criticized the morality of using food for fuel. I challenged venture capitalist Vinod Khosla, who was promising the world something I didn't feel that he could deliver, and in the process wasting taxpayer money and precious time. I also challenged the hype of cellulosic ethanol, pointing out issues that the critics were ignoring. As I was warning about the folly of U.S. ethanol policy, I also cautioned over the irrational exuberance of ethanol investors. (I should also note that I wrote several essays in favor of certain ethanol applications. See here, here, and here.)

The World Responds

The criticisms didn't go unnoticed. The Chinese recognized the threat to their food supplies, and put a halt to new corn ethanol projects, noting that "the current maize-ethanol production capacity has far surpassed what the corn output can provide as an important grain resource." The European Union began to recognize the dangers. EU Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas said that "the EU had initially underestimated the danger to rainforests and the risk of forcing up food prices from its policy of setting binding targets for the use of biofuels." The EU further announced that they would be issuing a certification scheme and promised a "clampdown on biodiesel from palm oil which is leading to forest destruction in Indonesia."

The U.S. government continued to show short-sightedness, however, and mandated an enormous expansion of the ethanol program. To understand this, one has to understand that ethanol policy in the U.S. is dictated almost entirely by politics, and not by science. Because the source of U.S. biofuels is largely domestic, the issue impacts upon a large segment of voters. Former presidential candidate Bob Dole once explained the issue to oilman T. Boone Pickens: "Bob Dole once told me that there are 42 senators from farm states and that pretty much means the government is going to be into ethanol."

The prominence of the Iowa presidential caucuses also plays a major role. The Iowa caucuses are held prior to the elections in most other states, and presidential candidates hope to do well there and gain momentum going into the rest of the campaign season. Since Iowa is the heart of ethanol production country in the U.S., candidates pander to the voters there who have greatly benefited from U.S. ethanol policies. In order to win Iowa, you must support ethanol policy. Presidential hopefuls Hillary Clinton and John McCain provide perfect examples of the Iowa influence. Longtime critics of U.S. ethanol policy - both changed their positions during the most recent presidential campaign. In 2003, McCain had come out strongly against U.S. ethanol policy:

"Ethanol is a product that would not exist if Congress didn't create an artificial market for it. No one would be willing to buy it. Yet thanks to agricultural subsidies and ethanol producer subsidies, it is now a very big business - tens of billions of dollars that have enriched a handful of corporate interests - primarily one big corporation, ADM. Ethanol does nothing to reduce fuel consumption, nothing to increase our energy independence, nothing to improve air quality."

Contrast that with his statements in 2006 as he prepared for a presidential run:

"I support ethanol and I think it is a vital, a vital alternative energy source not only because of our dependency on foreign oil but its greenhouse gas reduction effects."

Thus, while the world wakes up to the overall social and environmental ramifications of a broad expansion of ethanol policy, the U.S. is unlikely to deviate from the current policy. If there was a major Midwestern drought that caused the corn crop to fail, it might cause a reevaluation of the policy as corn supplies disappeared. But barring some sort of catastrophe that impacts ordinary Americans, the policy of turning food into fuel will continue unabated in the U.S.

Lessons Learned

The consequences from these biofuel policies was foreseen by a number of scientists. However, their criticisms were often shouted down, and their motives were questioned by some proponents. In the U.S., proponents cast the ethanol debate in terms of national security, energy independence, and the benefits to farming communities. Opponents were cast as being anti-farmer and un-American. This had the unfortunate effect of largely quelling the public debate as these policies were being unveiled and expanded.

Yet these debates must take place, preferably before a well-intentioned policy begins to have such undesirable consequences. Our political leaders need to carefully consider not only the arguments of proponents, but they also need to give the critics a fair hearing. Had this been done, we may have been able to focus our attention on renewable options that do not compete with our food supply.

http://reddit.com/info/68md3/comments/

thanks for your support.

Mr. Rapier as usual your comments are well thought out. Biodiesel and biologically derived alcohols can provide a means of fueling construction and agricultural machinery after post peak petroleum has priced itself out of the market. I see no diference between this and the historical practice of devoting a percentage of good crop land to feed draft animals.

At present I see no technologically developed replacements for liquid fuels in these uses.

If the crude plus concentrate peak is really 2005 and the rate of decline remains a point of contention the point at which the U.S. may need nonpetroleum liquid fuels is undefined.

One may readily criticize the U.S. govt for how they are encouraging alternate fuels. Some of the schemes being given state money in the state in which I live make ethanol look really golden. The roots of the ethanol push by the U.S. Govt lie in flawed agricultural policies of that govt but the history is past and we must deal with the present and the future. I look for ethanol efficiencies to improve as less efficient plants begin to fail economically.

Failing to push biofuels as a partial solution will in my opinion force us to use coal to liquid and or oil shale. It would be easy to fall into the anti-nuclear trap of destroying one alternative only to force the use of a worse alternative-coal.

The US fleet averages 20 MPG. Doubling this number is possible with inexpensive vehicles for sale today.

A 2 MPG increase would save more fuel than the whole US grain crop could provide and it would lower gasoline prices. Why should people be forced to pay More taxes and Higher gas prices and Higher food prices because the farm lobby wants a cut of the gasoline revenue?

If the farm states want subsidy, give the farmers funds to produce inexpensive organic produce!

US mpg is already going up, albeit very very slightly. that's just a start.

At present I see no technologically developed replacements for liquid fuels in these uses.

electricity and electric motors.

Go and stand on a bridge over a six lane freeway and count how many passing vehicles are electrically powered - as usual you are talking complete bollocks!

The electric motors you suggest need an adequate, low cost, high capacity battery of some sort - currently none come anywhere near gasoline and diesel for energy density, ease of use and cost.

It is not wise to assume personal electric vehicles will ever be cost competitive with ICE.

I used to rely on an electrically powered vehicle for most of my commute to work, when I lived in Newcastle and was commuting to a branch campus on the NSW Central Coast.

Of course, batteries were not an issue for those ...

... in any event, the "in these uses" in the comment further above referred to mechanized agriculture and construction machinery. That is a quite different problem to moving the people and freight that current use the Interstate.

In mechanized agriculture in particular, biofuel seems a plausible technology for including in the mix when developing alternatives to a petroleum based agriculture.

John,

You don't need new technology. It's already there. Ordinary cars (not the expensive hybrid technology) that run 50+ mpg can be bought as we speak. As a matter of facts, I have one, a second hand. The model has been on the market since 1997.

VW has introduced the Lupo 3L years ago. It runs 3 liters of diesel on 100 km. That's 75 mpg.

It's already there. No need for inventions. No need for break throughs. And it is much cheaper than a 15 mpg SUV. The average costs of cars like this are well below 10.000 US$.

And if you are American and want something a bit bigger:

http://www.whatcar.co.uk/car-review-pictures.aspx?RT=56&U=1

I get 45mpg (Urban commute) to 60mpg (Motorway) from this diesel, which has a larger cargo capacity than a lot of SUVs, as well as vastly better cornering. Modern diesel technology is something that might actually make a difference in the US - it's the reason why many European countries have seen flat or even slightly dropping oil usage in the past decade, despite increasing populations and passenger miles.

Well, at least one member of the Senate, Hillary Clinton will shortly be able to go back to her original and more science based position. She will no longer have to pander to the citizens of Iowa as she will be going back to being a full time Senator from New York. This is not an endorsement of Barack Obama but merely a recitation of an obvious reality.

Don't expect any changes in the positions of Obama and McCain until safely after the election. If Obama wins, he will begin looking to the next Iowa primary four years hence. McCain has said he would be a one term president. I doubt that he would follow through unless he dropped dead.

For a great many issues of lesser importance for the future of the planet, I can be forgiving due to the necessities of politics. Given the disastrous consequences, however, that will occur from a commitment to ethanol, especially corn, I think we should be very leery of politicans like Obama or McCain which promise a new era of hope and integrity.

Our political system, by its very nature is corrupt and undemocratic. I resent the influence of the denizens of Iowa who just feed the parochial nature of our politics which does not serve the interests of the general public of the U.S. or the citizens and other inhabitants of the planet.

On the margin, I think we should expect a more science based government for the next four years regardless of who is elected. Whether or not it will be sufficiently science based to avoid catastrophe remains to be seen.

I think cynics have long felt in relation to Mr Obama's calls for change: 'la plus ca change....'

Still, it takes some doing to make a virtue out of inexperience.

Don't expect any changes in the positions of Obama and McCain until safely after the election. If Obama wins, he will begin looking to the next Iowa primary four years hence.

I just did an interview with a major newspaper on Obama. Sounds like they are starting to kick the tires, because this didn't sound too friendly. I said that I was disappointed in some of his moves in the energy/environment sphere. However, I can't seriously fault him for supporting corn ethanol. He comes from a corn producing state. He is running for president, and that means he has to make a good showing in Iowa.

The truth of the matter is that if he had not been pro corn ethanol, he wouldn't be where he is. That is the political reality. But hopefully, he will have good advisors and he will be willing to make unpopular decisions if necessary. Because I have thought for months that he would be our next president. (I got into a funny argument with my father-in-law at Christmas who asserted that there was no way he could beat Hillary. I said "Just watch.")

I've been uncomfortable with Obama's willingness to play to corn ethanol and coal producers as well, but the political necessity of doing so is rather obvious, and there are no contenders with clean hands on that score...

FWIW, I happened to catch a RARE question about energy on the CNBC-sponsored Democratic debate several weeks back, and Obama's response was the only one that sounded right to me. He said that the low-hanging fruit was clearly efficiency and conservation. I don't think I've heard any of the other candidates say that. He may be cozy with corn and coal, but at least he seems to "get" it about the big picture on energy.

I agree: I think we're going to be an Obamanation.

(No, I can't take credit for that coinage, and I don't know who should rightly get it.)

We seem to be faced with a US government that perpetually either does nothing in the face of the looming crisis, or it does do something - that "something" ending up being exactly the wrong thing. It doesn't inspire much confidence for our future.

It doesn't inspire much confidence for our future.

there is still the market.

that inspires even less....

the market is our savior.

Obama proposes $210 billion for new jobs

Obama's investment would be over 10 years as part of two programs. The larger is $150 billion to create 5 million so-called "green collar" jobs to develop more environmentally friendly energy sources.

Sixty-billion dollars would go to a National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank to rebuild highways, bridges, airports and other public projects. Obama estimated that could generate nearly 2 million jobs, many of them in the construction industry that's been hit by the housing crisis.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080213/ap_on_el_pr/obama_12

I'm sure that unlike most of our other national politicians Obama doesn't actually have horns growing out of his head, a pointy tail, and a pitchfork in his hand. Nevertheless, with all due respect, I'm underwhelmed. It is all going to be a case of being much too little, much too late.

There is a lobby for corn farmers, but no lobby for switch grass farmers. There is a market for corn in biofuels but not switchgrass, corn stalks, rice straw nor wheat straw. If we want to get to more rational cellulose biofuels, we have to develop a market system to make that happen.

If farmers had contracts to sell 1/2 of their corn stalks at a profit, they might be very pleased. They could get $40 per ton with up to 10 tons per acre and that would pay for a lot of corn growing fertilizer. Maybe they would not need as many price supports and we could stop the food/fuel debate.

Corn farmers and potential switchgrass farmers are the same people. Farming is highly flexible, and the same land, people and machinery can produce a variety of crops.

It is not a good idea to remove crop residues. That used to be common practice, back in the days of horse farming, combines without strawchoppers, and tillage equipment that could not handle high trash. Burning straw once was a common practice on the plains. But by removing that biomass and not reincorporating it back into the soil, soil tilth is reduced and erosion of soil A horizon (topsoil) is increased. There is no free ride.

If biomass feedstock is the desired product, then perennial grasses are by far the best choice for farmland. Perennial grasses are low-fertility, low-maintenance crops. The market will develop by itself when the technical problems of cellulose conversion are solved.

We are at the Wright Brothers and Langley stage of biofuel development. In 1907 nobody knew where this new toy called the airplane was heading. At the time, it was an interesting development but didn't look very useful as a transport solution. It could barely lift itself off the ground.

Corn farmers and potential switchgrass farmers are the same people. Farming is highly flexible, and the same land, people and machinery can produce a variety of crops.

Good, fertile cropland should not be used for fuel production; corn planting, cultivating, and harvesting equipment is radically different from that used to plant and harvest grasses.

We are at the Wright Brothers and Langley stage of biofuel development. In 1907 nobody knew where this new toy called the airplane was heading.

Conversely, one could say we are at the Edsel phase of ethanol fuel development.

First point: Fertilizing the corn belt is becoming another import addiction. With domestic natural gas prices up, fertilizer production is way down and imports from gas-rich countries are up. It's easier to import natural gas as fertilizer than as LNG with its complicated infrastructure.

Second point: A possible way of utilizing straw, corn stalks, etc. is to generate energy via pyrolysis with co-production of biochar that is returned back to the soil. Biochar is recalcitrant to decomposition in the soil, yet provides many of the benefits of more conventionally produced humus. Such carbon-negative energy production may be our only way out of the present global heating nightmare.

Absolutely..the latest studies show that you can preserve the soil by only removing 1/2 of the stalks. After the process, the char contains the carbon which is returned to the soil. Methane in remote locations should be turned into a product like fertilizer rather than LNG. An LNG plant costs billions of dollars and then you have to spend billions more dollars on the LNG tankers. Just because you can use a technology, does not mean that you should. It may not be the best way, if you think it through further.

Note that this appeal of perennial grasses is the case for farmland in areas (like Iowa) where a mixed grassland is the climax vegetation. In bioregions where forest is the climax vegetation, it may be that wood coppice is the most productive source of cellulose feedstock.

Two weeks ago I sat in a room with bankers, farmers, college staff, ethanol plant operators, and wind project developers. It seems I'm not the only one in northwest Iowa with a hankerin' to build wind driven ammonia production :-)

Anyway, in the course of the discussion, ethanol EROI came up. The ethanol guys were there specifically because they're looking for processes to colocate with ethanol production in order to improve efficiency. They were quite interested in the waste heat from

I suspect that a moratorium on construction with continued operation of existing plants is in the cards. I don't have anything more specific than my own sense of the region behind this statement, but I think it makes good political sense.

Iowa farmers as well as those in other states are being put into a no win situation in the food vs fuel debate. If they get a decent return on their investment they are criticized for pricing the poor out of the market. If they grew at a price the poor could afford then they go bankrupt. The solution is to assist the poor in developing countries so they can produce their own food. Foreign aid has not been a significant part of the US political agenda (or its budget) for decades. The billions of people living on $10 a day or less are simply invisible to the American voters.
As for the subsidies don't they go to the fuel blenders directly and not the ethanol producers and the farmers? Finally the corn going to the ethanol plant is not considered suitable for human consumption.

Iowa farmers as well as those in other states are being put into a no win situation in the food vs fuel debate.

I am all for helping farmers, and I am not against farm subsidies. I would much rather pay farmers NOT to use up their land in a boondoggle. But I am against creating a situation in which farmers are encouraged to adopt highly unsustainable and environmentally harmful practices.

As for the subsidies don't they go to the fuel blenders directly and not the ethanol producers and the farmers?

They do. Now ask yourself why it is the ethanol producers and farm state senators who lobby to keep the subsidies, and not the fuel blender. When fuel blender ExxonMobil suggested removing the subsidies, the American Coalition for ethanol screamed long and loud. Curious response for a subsidy benefiting the blender.

Finally the corn going to the ethanol plant is not considered suitable for human consumption.

And I suppose it isn't grown on land that can grow food suitable for human consumption? That other crops haven't been displaced to grow this unsuitable food? That the demand for the unsuitable food hasn't sky-rocketed due to mandates, resulting in displacement of other, less profitable (but tasty) crops?

Robert, you are aware that the number of acres devoted to the 8 major crops has fallen from almost 300 million acres in the early 80's to less than 250 million acres, right?

Robert, you are aware that the number of acres devoted to the 8 major crops has fallen from almost 300 million acres in the early 80's to less than 250 million acres, right?

Discussions with you could be so much more productive if you would source some of the claims you make.

Wheat and rice are human end-use products, but corn is an intermediate product. It's primary use is as feed for animals, the harvesting of which provides humans with meat. We can stop growing corn, but you will have to cut back on your meat consumption.

What is unsustainable is trying to feed 6 1/2 billion people. Present farming practice is unsustainable, but we have no choice. We're doing all we can to feed that many people, and the small percentage that is going into biofuels is not the driver of the system.

American agriculture policy has always been aimed at producing cheap food. If it had the best interests of farmers at heart, our rural farm population wouldn't be so small and you wouldn't be depending on a rapidly aging Thin Green Line to provide you with food that most of you no longer know how to produce yourselves.

We can stop growing corn, but you will have to cut back on your meat consumption.

I believe you meant to say "corn-fed meat" as opposed to "grass-fed meat". I personally have been cutting back on meat consumption altogether anyway.

Speaking of no win situations: if we assist the poor in developing country grow their own food we get criticized for not being able to assure them the seed is GMO free. Like anyone could possibly do that these days. Does the American taxpayer's billion dollar contribution to the UN food program count? That's half their budget and a lot of the other half comes from American individuals and companies.

Corn must be milled into flour before being made into tortillas, Who ever heard that the types of corn sold as livestock feed one year might be unfit for human consumption the next? The corn on the cob you saw in the supermarket was a different variety grown for table use. Ethanol distillers were supported by subsidies that were in turn used to buy high cost corn. I read of at least one company cancelling plans to build an ethanol plant because they could not forsee any profits in the operation.

Corn is low in BTU's per ton compared to uranium, coal, oil, or LNG. The green energy people recommending biodiesel and ethanol were naive and emotional in their approach to trying to solve energy problems. The United States is the largest corn producer in the world and the largest corn exporter in the world, yet there is not enough corn grown here to fuel more than 12% of our gasoline needs. If the US were to get 12% of its gasoline needs from ethanol, people would complaining loudly in Washington and elsewhere about the food shortages and skyrocketing food prices. They might start to look for someone to blame. The ecopolitics people might have to come up with a plan to save the human species. They might also need to find cheap energy supplies in order to distill their grain mash liquids after fermentation as ethanol is more expensive than hydroelectric, coal, uranium, oil, and natural gas as an energy supply. It is not clean, nor can it prevent deforestation and soil erosion. Pulling up corn stalks as an energy supply is less popular than cutting down trees and shoving logs into wood burning stoves. I suppose someone might want to think backyard grass clippings as an energy supply might save us. No one has proven it. There needs to be more flip-flopping back to sane energy policy than consistent error in sticking to the wrong story.

There is quite alot of evidence that no one has ever run a nation on switch grass, but there are people in Washington who claimed it can be done. A call to switch to cellulosic ethanol production was issued from the White House. The place seems to have no shortage of false claims, failed plans, and bad advice.

Robert, I think the biggest problem with figuring EROIE is accounting for the Distillers Grains. I would like to offer a few thoughts.

First: Field Corn is, primarily, Cattle Feed. Distillers Grains have been found by cattle producers to give a 10% greater weight gain than corn when fed in a thirty percent mixture. How, you ask, can that be when the starch has been removed. One reason, I think, might be that a considerable amount of CO2 has been removed. I don't think anyone ever got a very hefty weight gain by feeding CO2.

So, NOW What? How many gallons of ethanol did we get out of our bushel of cattle feed? Well, it seems to me that we've RETURNED about 44% (equivalent) of the original corn. Now, where did I go wrong?

The biggest problem with EROEI figures is not distillers grains or the arcane figures themselves. The biggest problem is the concept itself which is fallacious as I have pointed out many times. It is a classic case of comparing apples and oranges compounded by the error of omitting the critical function of price in resource allocation. Comparing fossil fuel inputs to ethanol, while both are forms of energy, is like comparing apples and oranges (both being fruits) which is a well known logical fallacy. When the prices are left out of the comparison, the fallacy is compounded. Just because university professors or the USDA commit logical fallacies does not give the result validity. People in Iowa know something goofy is going on, but most can't put their finger on it. It has taken me a couple of years to figure precisely what is wrong with RR's reasoning. Further compounding the errors of EROEI are the way it is applied only to ethanol. If EROEI were the voice of a god, then it should be applied equally to all. In the case of the apples and oranges comparison of electricity produced from natural gas, the resultant energy loss is ignored despite the fact that more natural gas is used to produce electricity than ethanol. It is this unequal application of EROEI which shows that there is a another agenda at work which I will not speculate on here. I would love to take this to my logic teacher that I had in freshman college English class although she is probably dead by now. She and the class would have a field day finding all the logic fallacies in RR's anti ethanol arguments.