The Energy Return on Time
Posted by Nate Hagens on July 25, 2007 - 11:07am
Topic: Alternative energy
Tags: demand, discount rates, efficiency, eroi, just-in-time, net energy, sustainability, time [list all tags]
While writing the recent piece on home heating, I was surprised to calculate many different numbers for the energy return on firewood. Though the outputs were only slightly different in quantity of BTUs, there was a wide range of inputs. But the primary reason for the return disparity was the presence of the market economy - those processing firewood for their own use had higher energy returns than those selling wood for profit - the accelerated drying time to process large amounts of wood required an additional wood input which dropped the energy return. Graphically this showed up as a tradeoff between maximizing energy return on TIME versus maximizing energy return on ENERGY. This reminded me that energy return is not a hard-and-fast principle, and also that society, obviously, will optimize its resources based on what it perceives to be its most limiting input(s). However, in an upcoming world constrained by energy, or any limiting variable other than time/money, we can increase our energy available by reducing the return on other inputs, such as time.
INTRODUCTION - A COMMON FRAMEWORK
I've written several articles here related to net energy:
"Using Hubbert Method on EIA Data - The Tiger Chasing its Tail?"
"A Net Energy Parable -Why is EROI Important?"
"Energy From Wind - A Discussion of the EROI Research"
"Ten Fundamental Principles of Net Energy"
"Peak Oil - Why Smart Folks Disagree - Part II"
Since my thinking and research has changed a bit recently, I'd like to first take a big step back and attempt to simplify things, before moving on to a discussion on energy and time. The post ended up being longer and denser than intended, but I believe it gathers momentum as it goes, like a fallen sasquatch on a ski slope.
Humans use exosomatic energy - we use more energy than our own body can store. We procure this energy from a variety of sources and build infrastructure to harness and deliver it all around the planet. But other than drying our hair and laundry in the sun/wind, most of this energy needs to be found/harnessed/refined and distributed to a new or existing societal infrastructure to be able to provide us with its energy services.
We can measure (or at least estimate) in BTU terms, the planets numerous energy 'capital accounts'. Some stores of energy, like light sweet crude oil are awesome in their energy density and versatility and there is, (or once was) a great deal of them. Other energy sources, like wind via wind turbines, are also impressive in the energy they provide, but it is of a different nature - diffuse, intermittent and renewable. Just like we don't really care about dollars but instead what they buy for us, we don't especially care about energy per se, but rather the energy services it provides. Once we pay for the harnessed energy, how we use it is almost as important as how expensive it was to procure.
SUPPLY AND DEMAND WITH A TWIST
Energy allows us to do work. More energy allows us to do more work (i.e. grow). Societies energy profit from one period to the next, is the sum total of all the harnessed energy itself, less the amount we needed to use to deliver this energy to a socially desirable form. We then have to subtract the amount we waste in its consumption to arrive at whats left -this small fraction is the amount actually used to produce human utility - lets call this E. Let's call the former 3 pieces X, Y and Z respectively. So our entire energy supply snafu can be simplified into X (the energy), Y, the efficiency of harnessing it, and Z, the efficiency of using it. If we cut X (the energy) in half, we can still arrive at the same E by doubling either Y (the efficiency/technology through which we harness the energy) or Z, (the efficiency with which we use the energy). While the Peak Oil problem is mostly specific to liquid fuels, the broader energy problem facing the growth economy is how to maintain/increase E, or be happier/generate the same or greater utility from a smaller E (energy used).
Here at theoildrum.com and other circles discussing our energy future, all things energy basically fall into those 4 areas:
X What is and how big is the energy source? (Actually, X is the sum of all energy sources, x1 (coal), x2(oil)....+xn = X)
Y How efficiently do we harness the energy? (what % of each x gets to the energy service side, after subtracting out energy costs?)
Z How efficiently do we use the harnessed energy in our infrastructure and human systems?
E This is the energy that's actually 'used' after all heat losses have been subtracted. What do we use energy for? Why is it important?
My main points in presenting energy in this framework are 1) X is what it is, and will not change meaningfully on any human time scale unless it is consumed, 2) decreasing Y% and Z% (becoming more efficient at both harnessing or using X) are identical in their impact on E, 3)Though there are physical limits on X, Y and Z, there are none on E, in either direction (except perhaps minimum trophic levels of caloric consumption).
Now that we've dispensed with the energy-world-according-to-Nate, lets move on towards the meat of the post:
A REFRESHER ON NET ENERGY ANALYSIS AND ENERGY RETURN ON INVESTMENT
One method for evaluating alternative energy systems is net energy analysis, which seeks to compare the amount of energy delivered to society by a technology to the total energy required to procure that energy to a socially useful form. Biophysically minded analysts prefer net energy analysis to standard economic analysis because it assesses the progression in the physical scarcity of an energy resource, and therefore is immune to the effects of market imperfections that distort monetary data. Also, because goods and services are produced from the conversion of energy into utility, net energy is a measure of the potential to perform useful work in social/economic systems.
Energy Return on Investment (EROI) is an oft-confused controversial but important subset of net energy analysis. EROI is basically a combined measure of how high of quality/density the original energy source is with the energy cost that the composite of harvesting technologies uses to deliver the energy to the consumptive stage. It is often confused because analysis crosses back and forth between 'Y' and 'Z' in the introductory graphic. (Google Robert Rapier and Vinod Khosla...;) EROI is strictly a measure of energy and its 'harvesting' costs in energy terms, not the efficiency of its use or it's transformation to another energy vehicle. For example, once coal is procured out of the ground at a particular energy return, the decision, and subsequent efficiency loss to turn it into electricity or Fischer-Tropsch diesel, are both part of Z, the consumption whims of society. Each energy technology (e.g. in situ mining for tar sands) is a composite of X and Y in the above graphic - a combination of the density/BTU caliber of the energy source and how much energy it takes to procure it to a useful form.
Combining everything then, x times y for each energy technology (oil, coal, solar, nuclear, etc) gives us the net energy, (or energy surplus) for each of earths energy sources. Add all these together and we get X, which is the current planetary energy resource. Multiply them by Y, and we have how much energy is available for human use. X times Y changes over time, as the race between depletion of high quality stocks/flow sites versus better technology unfolds.
Below is a graphic of the peaking and declining of EROI for Louisiana oil and gas production. Its very similar to an actual production curve - as production peaked and declined, net energy also declined sharply (fortunately we had 49 other states and 50+ other countries to get oil from when this occurred)
Lousiana EROI Profile - Source "Energy and Resource Quality - The Ecology of the Economic Process", Hall, Cleveland and Kaufman, 1986
EROI is an important concept because we live on a finite planet ruled by physical systems subject to entropy. There is only so much low entropy energy present in fossil fuel stocks and solar/tidal flows that can be accessed at a meaningfully positive energy return. If society collectively becomes dependent on a certain aggregate energy gain system and attempts to replace it with a lower energy gain portfolio, keeping all other inputs equal, then a larger % of societies resources (labor, capital, etc) would have to be devoted to energy procurement, leaving less available for hospitals, infrastructure, and bowling, etc. EROI has a trade-off with scale - at low scale, EROI can be very high - at higher and higher scale sizes, EROI eventually declines. What society actually uses is EROI x Scale, which equates to the energy surplus (or net energy). If EROI x Scale of all energy sources declines from year to year, all the dollars in the world can't produce the energy gap that has been created. The missing energy would have to come from efficiency, conservation or demand destruction. A numerical example of a hypothetical society facing declines in net energy can be read here.
There are however, many problems with basing energy decisions solely or primarily on EROI. First, as will be seen below, it is not as physical a number as some would like to believe. Second, it has to be adjusted for societies choice of energy quality and this adjustment makes it follow the dictates of the market, something it was designed to look beyond. Third, any collapse-like implications of lower EROI from a societal perspective are not set in stone - lower system wide EROI could be trumped by higher efficiency or new technologies on the consumption side, at least in theory. Fourth, an EROI figure, either high or low, doesn't tell us about the potential size nor of the timing of the alternative energy technology -my potato crop this year will probably be in excess of 50:1 EROI, but it will only help myself and my neighbors because my entire crop is about 50,000 BTUs worth of potatoes - or about 1/2 gallon of gasoline equivalent. Also, unless one parses environmental impacts into energy terms (which is doable but not at all accurate), EROI (currently) still fails to quantify undesirable energy externalities like increased pollution or ecosystem degradation. Finally, it gives us a narrow metric (though certainly broader than dollars) on one limiting variable (energy) that we may be facing in the future. Energy is probably the most important variable I can think of that propels global society forward, but water, soil, ecosystem services, and greenhouse gas emissions also may play a role in societal functioning at some future date.
Onward..
*SIDEBAR - NET ENERGY AND NATIONAL PETROLEUM COUNCIL FORECAST*

Illustrative Total Liquids Supply. Source: Figure ES-5 of NPC report Executive Summary.
There was not a single mention of net energy in the NPC report released last week. Perhaps the reason that oil companies don't use net energy in normal parlance is that it's really an ecological concept, and not (yet) congruous with the market system. True, if there were unlimited other high quality energy dense resources that comprised societies "X", then oil agencies could reasonably exclude the 'net' from their analysis. As it is, oil is ubiquitous in allowing every aspect of the global capitalist system to flourish. It can be replaced, but so far only by lower energy return liquid fuels or by changing the massively entrenched oil dependent transport infrastructure.
Net energy doesn't have much meaning at the company level. An oil company CFO doesn't say "Joe, I think we have declining EROI on our oil fields - what should we do?" He says - "We have accelerating cost pressures in finding new oil-should we even be drilling for that oil if its costs us $50 a barrel?". From a companies perspective, one looks at the dollar cost of accessing and delivering future production - the more difficult to access fields of the future will likely require more energy, and thus higher prices. This is an economic analysis. But when looked at from a societal perspective, while dollars are certainly important, another phenomenon emerges with declines in the net energy available. If the aggregate of the energy producing (harvesting) sector requires more energy due to depletion of the 'easy' portions of a resource, this energy has to come from what once went to non-energy sectors. So what the NPC is missing in the above graph, is that the projected 'growth' in oil supply will, especially the categories of ethanol, biofuels, tar sands, oil shale, etc. free up much less energy to non-energy society per barrel produced than the original, already used, high EROI oil. Essentially, can we assume that the 100+mbpd shown in 2030 would (if it were actually achieved) still free up the same % of oil and gas to society as it does now? More, or less? If less, then which currently productive sectors of the economy will this energy come from (electricity, natural gas and oil products)? Are agencies like the NPC responsible for this type of analysis? If not, then who is?
THE ENERGY RETURN OF FIREWOOD
Ok. Sorry for the long preamble. We now arrive at the central point of this post, which is that energy, due to human decisions on their inputs to Y and use of Z, is perpetually in a tradeoff with time. Recently, an oildrum post showed the potential scale of the forests in the United States were they to be used for heat/firewood. This analysis was 'gross' and did not take into account how much energy it would require to harvest and transport all the wood. While we are in reality not going to accomplish or even attempt this (I hope not), I learned many things from working through the numbers.
THE ANALYSIS
I interviewed 7 firewood 'experts' (Thanks to Hans, Gene, Lynn, Oildrum readers Vtpeaknik and Johnwilder, Whitey and my father), (I consider my father an expert...;) who have been harvesting repeatedly for a number of years - 2 were 'professional' firewood vendors (one in WI, and one in VT) and the other 4 procured the wood themselves for their own use in WI, VT, ME and AK. The energy needed to get firewood is a) to chop down the tree b) to buck it up into transportable pieces, c)to tranport it to the place where it will be d)split and e)dried (green wood has too high of moisture content to burn). Finally, f)it had to be transported again to its final place of consumption.
I came up with a range of EROIs for firewood from 7:1 to 100:1. Yes, thats what I thought - how could something with an equivalent energy output have such disparate energy returns? The math for 2 of the study cases is below:
Example 1 - Gene in Maine
Per Cord
Chainsaw - 3/8 gallon gasoline.
Splitter - 1/2 gallon of gasoline.
Gene uses horses to deliver the wood from the forest to his 'factory'
Feed for the horses (an indirect energy requirement) is also procured by horse/human labor
Wood is air dried from Jan-Feb to September when its delivered (time input 9 months)
Saw rig and conveyor to load in truck for transport to customers- 7/8 gallon of gasoline.
Total loaded in truck - about 1 3/4 gallons of gasoline.
Truck carries one cord and gets 10 mpg.
(I assumed average customer is 5 miles, so 1 gallon round trip)
Time input 8 hours per cord, plus 1 hour for equipment maintenance and 1 hour for horses
or 10 hours of labor per cord
Energy input per cord delivered 2.75 gallons x 115,000 BTU = 316,250 BTUs
Energy output per cord of mixed, dried hardwood = 20,000,000 BTUs
EROI of this particular firewood operation =20,000,000 / 316,250 = 63.25
Note, this does not include the energy inputs into the making of the saws and truck, the food requirements of the horses or Gene, or any of the maintenance of the roads used, or any other 'wide boundary' analyses. (that would be more correct but a heck of a lot of work)
Example 2 - Lynn in Vermont
Buys wood from firewood jobbers - 1/2 gallon per cord for chainsaw
Wood transported average of 5 miles to his firewood company (.5 gallon)
1/2 gallon for splitter
To kiln dry the wood (and have a 5 day turnaround time, year round)
Lynn uses 1 unit of 'crap wood' for each 8 units of salable firewood
Average customer distance for the 2,000+ cords per year - 20 miles but his truck holds 2 cords so 2 gallons round turn
Labor estimate 3 hours per cord
Time estimate - turnaround time 1 week
Energy inputs 4 gallons x 115,000 BTU
1/8 cord of wood =1/8 X 20,000,000 =2,500,000
Energy output = 20,000,000 per cord
Energy input = 3,075,000
EROI of firewood operation #2 = 20,000,000/ 3,075,000 = 6.75
The other 5 people I interviewed had a variety of similar inputs and their EROI calclulation ranged from 18:1 to 100:1 (the 100:1 was a person who chopped the wood by hand and required 52 hours per cord of labor).
Takeaways:
Clearly there are tradeoffs in the procurement of firewood between time, labor and energy. To mass produce, or to do things in a hurry (for reasons other than mass producing), using part of the lower quality scrap wood to quickly dry the wood reduces the energy return but increases not only the profit margin but the EROTI (Energy Return on Time Invested). Alternatively, using extra time and the 'free' drying heat of the sun dramatically increases the energy return but gives a lower return on both labor and EROTI. While this example may be unique to this particular subset of X (forest biomass), we see this phenomenon as well in oil production. Bottlebrush extraction, horizontal well drilling and other new technologies access more parts of an oil field simultaneously, at a higher energy cost, in order to bring them to market faster than traditional slower methods. I don't have ready access to this data, but presumably we could increase the EROI of oil or at least stem the decline from over 100:1 in 1930 down to 10-20:1 earlier this decade (anecdotally this has dropped even further of late in the US), were we to suck on the straw a little slower.
TIME AND ENERGY ALSO HAVE TRADEOFFS ON THE CONSUMPTION SIDE
"But the rate at which new energy technologies, especially conservation, will in fact be introduced will depend on how we perceive the trade-off between time and other resources, and our sophistication and understanding of the new technologies. Thus a conservation measure doesn't happen automatically: it happens only if the economic penalties imposed by not conserving outweigh, in the individual's perception, the loss of time that the conservation measure entails; or if the individual can be persuaded to take a view of the future that is long range enough to justify his investing in the additional capital equipment necessary to save energy over the long run".(4) Alvin Weinberg, 1979
Once in the consumers control, energy again undergoes entropy, going from a low entropy high value substance that is paid for with money, to a high entropy, low value heat waste product (e.g. at 10-15% efficiency, 80-85% of the energy used in the internal combustion engine of an automobile is dissipated as wasted heat). Overspeeding, overlighting, overdrying, overlighting are all examples of how the average efficiency of our energy use declines.
As the introductory graphic explained, a high energy gain technology/energy source means we can be more profligate with how we spend energy. Similarly a lower energy gain system, especially compared to what we've built our infrastructure around, will require high energy gain substitutes, or corresponding increases in efficiency of the energy services we use for human utility. Time also impedes the 'efficiency' with which we use energy. One example that everyone is familiar with is driving. To get the most mileage per gallon, we would have to drive at speeds at or below the speed limit, depending on the size/type of car we are driving. Very low speeds don't generate enough force to overcome engine baseline and idle, very high speeds get us to where we are going faster, but at a cost of using considerably more energy.
The tradeoff between time and energy in gas mileage of various size automobiles
D. Spreng "Time, Information and Energy Conservation" (2) (Click to Enlarge)
Here is a calculated example on an electric car (Prius) with values based on 68F, at sea level, with no A/C or wind.
The maximum return on energy for this car is at 32 mpg. (The maximum return on time would be as fast as one could safely drive.) The electric assist appears to help up to around 42 mph, at which point the engine starts to spin up, and mileage quickly falls off a cliff, and then continues to decrease more gradually as speed rises. (The shape of the graph could also only have come from a car with a continuously variable transmission - other than the transition where the internal combustion engine spins up, there are no obvious "steps" in the plot.) (source)
For most cars, a sharp dropoff in 'energy return' (which we usually call engine efficiency), starts at around 40-50 mph.
(Source)
Interestingly, going 50 mph gets twice the gas mileage (roughly) as going 100 mph. So its takes twice as long to get there but costs 1/2 as much.
THE MAXIMUM POWER PRINCIPLE
It is no surprise that people want to optimize their return on time, especially when a) energy and other basic requirements are currently cheap and b) we have a genetic propensity (amplified by culture) to steeply value the present over the future. The market optimizes dollars, via positive interest rates (which are based on time). If one has more time, one can effect more iterations of a money making process.
The tradeoff between time and energy is consistent with but slightly different than Lotka's and Odum's Maximum Power Principle, which states that organisms and ecosystems arrange themselves not by efficient energy use but by the maximum rate*flow of energy they can harness from the surrounding environment. Some even believe this organizing principle is the 4th law of thermodynamics. Late Tuesday night, I've decided the parallels of time/energy with the maximum power principle will require a subsequent post, (adding it to the list) but the fact that maximum power is achieved through the compromise between speed and efficiency of energy conversions at intermediate efficiencies is a well known biological concept(6). It's quite possible that the market, in a culture of resource extraction is the ultimate vehicle to pursue maximum power - power being represented by dollars in stored digits. However, I did find a fascinating paper, "On Ungulate Foraging Strategy - Energy Maximizers or Time Minimizers" which disputes some of the earlier ecological work asserting that animals maximize on power/energy. This study showed that bison, a prey animal, do in fact choose to optimize time, rather than energy intake, presumably to have more of their day to pursue other fitness increasing events (watching out for predators and finding really attractive bison). Clearly there are evolutionary forces that draw organisms to choose between energy maximization and time maximization - to me this seems like fertile ground for more research (if there is time...;)
Eighth, in a compelling harmony with all the above thoughts we should cure ourselves of what I have been calling "the circumdrome of the shaving machine", which is to shave oneself faster so as to have more time to work on a machine that shaves faster so as to have more time to work on a machine that shaves still faster, and so on ad infinitum. This change will call for a great deal of recanting on the part of all those professions which have lured man into this empty infinite regress. We must come to realize that an important prerequisite for a good life is a substantial amount of leisure spent in an intelligent manner." Nicolai Georgescu-Roegen Energy and Economic Myths
ON ENERGY AND TIME - THE REALLY BIG PICTURE
We live on a planet of entropy, though its process it much too slow for us to notice. The first law of thermodynamics states that energy can not be created nor destroyed, only changed. The second law (the entropy law) states that low entropy (high potential) energy gradually but inexorably gets changed and degraded to high entropy (low potential) waste - each transformation results in a % of the original energy being lost as heat. Entropy can be slowed by leaving the low entropy sources alone, harnessing them more efficiently, or using their services more efficiently. Entropy can be hastened by opening the energy service spigot wider and wider, and using energy with little attention to how much is wasted. Unnoticed by everyone involved (except me, because Im writing this), my morning drive to Starbucks today took what was 1 gallon of high quality oil from beneath the sand in Saudi Arabia, and translated it to: a tiny amount of work for a great many people, a 30 minute joyous freedom-ride at 60 mph on a beautiful day, an unneccesary but pleasant jolt of hot caffeine, and about 115,000 BTUs dissipated into the earths atmosphere as heat, never to be used again. ( I could have, were my priorities different, chosen to raise the temperature of 115,000 pounds of water by 1 degree Celsius - ahhh freedom.)
In this sense, energy is time itself, for once ALL usable energy is gone, and our sun reaches heat death, physically speaking time itself will cease to exist - for what is time other than a way to measure the process of entropy?(7) Amazingly, each American born today can be expected to live 77+/- years, and extrapolating the current roughly 60 barrel of oil equivalent per year use by the average American, use over 4,600 barrels of oil equivalent of energy during their lifetimes. (Note: at 1 trillion barrels of global URR (ultimate recoverable reserves), that works out to 130 barrels per person for all time, and thats NOT including the impact of net energy). Looks like the 4,470+ will have to come from something other than oil, or we'll have to cut down on lifespan, or energy use per year, or both.
What if a magic machine that could allow each of us as individuals to allocate between energy and time for our own lives? How many people would choose to live to be 154 years old (77*2) but only use 30 boe per year (60/2)? My bet is quite a few. Take that a step further. How many would be willing to live to be 770 years old but only use 6 barrels of oil equivalent per year? Still some, but 770 years might get boring - thats a heck of a lot of Gilligans Island reruns - also 6 barrels per year isnt too many. How many would choose to live to be 7700 years old while using 6/10s a barrel per year of energy? Probably far fewer, (except for the vampires..;) The point being, not only is there a continuum between energy and time, but also of quality of life! People will and should conserve, but will they and should they beyond the point where there lives are improved. In this sense, I visualize a triad between energy, time, and quality, each having minimum values, beyond which steps towards one of the 3 are offset/substituted by one of the other two - we can increase in quality by decreasing our return on energy or time - we can increase our return on energy, by reducing our return on time, or quality, or some such concept.
CONCLUSIONS
Net energy is a physical measurement but can be meaningfully influenced by cultural valuations of other inputs (e.g. time). To me, net energy is most important in the following 2 senses: 1) given that we are beginning to acknowledge that the market does not provide perfect information, using net energy analysis to compare mitigation/adaptation strategies for the coming era of oil depletion is like looking 2 cars ahead in a snowstorm (the market is fixated on just the car taillights ahead). In this way one gets a truer sense of whats really happening up ahead because decisions are based on (at least partially) physical principles. Second, society continues to grow on a certain summation of energy density/quality and BTU total. As we exhaust the low hanging energy fruits, not only in oil, but in hydroelectric, coal, and other sources, to find the remaining, lower quality/density sources, more energy will have to be used. This energy doesn’t come from the sky, but will be subtracted from the also declining amount of oil, natural gas, and electricity produced annually. Therefore the combination of these new energy technologies with end-use consumer efficiency improvements will have to overcome depletion and the increased energy requirement needed for lower EROI sources in order to maintain economic growth. Its really quite simple.
Ironically, net energy principles only purely work when time is not a factor. Given unlimited mitigation time, policymakers can use net energy analysis to determine the best use for our remaining high energy gain assets. But if fuel shortages develop, fixed infrastructure on the current declining energy return technologies may deliver more of an energy service payload to society than a new investment and scaling up of new technologies due to time lags.
The market is expensive in it's use of energy, not the least of reasons is that it incentivizes us to repeat iterations making money as often and quickly as possible. Getting things done quicker is much more important than getting them done using less energy. The market mechanism can coexist with oil depletion, but rules will eventually have to be created that coordinate our expected energy profit with our "E" (actual energy used), limit energy waste, choose what E brings the most meaningful and consistent human utility, and perhaps reduce our EROTI- energy return on time, thereby boosting the return on energy, or whatever the limiting factor is to human systems. A return to slower ways may not only provide us with more energy, but make us happier at the same time. How to get there?
Nathan John Hagens
The University of Vermont
www.theoildrum.com
email nate at theoildrum dot com
Next Up "On The Origins of Exponential Growth, Part I"
(1) Bergman et Al, "Ungulate Foraging Strategies: Energy Maximizing, or Time Minimizing?"(pdf) Journal of Animal Ecology 2001:70,289-300
(2) Spreng D. "Time, Information and Energy Conservation" ORAU/IEA-78-22(R), Institute for Energy Analysis, Oak Ridge Associated
Universities, Oak Ridge, Tennessee, December 1978.
(3)Hall, Charles "The Continuing Importance of Maximum Power", Ecological Modeling 178-(2004) 107-113
(4) Weinberg, A. "Are The Alternative Energy Strategies Achievable?" ORAU/IEA 79-15 (O) Institute for Energy Analysis, Oak Ridge Associated
Universities, Oak Ridge, Tennessee, September 1979.
(5)Georgescu-Roegen, N. Energy and Economic Myths
(6)Smith, C. "When and How Much to Reproduce? The Tradeoff Between Power and Efficiency" American Zoologist 1976 16(4):763-774
(7) Rifkin, J. "The Entropy Law" 1982


Nate,
I haven't read most of the post but wanted to respond to your Energy vs Time statement. You have hit the nail on the head bringing this concept up.
I have been telling everyone I meet since I learned about peak oil that much of our energy problem is trying to do everything fast, rather than most energy efficiently. Driving fast, just in time delivery, air travel, 24 hr shopping, all are premised that fast is better. We have created a world that values quickness more than energy efficiency, at least with respect to making money.
Take the need for speed out of the equation and many energy problems will have different solutions. Unfortunately we are not there yet. The world is still trying to go faster so solutions often can't be the most efficient. They can only be the most efficient at the same or faster speed.
Can't wait to read your whole post!
NC- did you not read it perhaps because you are pressed for time?? ;)
Water, Water, Everwhere.
I'm not an expert on biofuels, but it seems to me that water is the nemesis. All living things have water in their cells, but fuel doesn't like it.
We can dry firewood by aging (solar powered evaporation) or kiln dry if we have more energy than time.
Take thermal depolymerization of Turkey guts to oil. ISTM that the water in biological waste makes it hard to get this process to exceed break even. The turkey wast has to be heated to 600C and evaporating water takes energy. There's special enzymes and drying agents and all kinds of secret sauce, this isn't my field, but water seemd to be the nub of it. And turkey guts has value as fertilyzer or animal feed if it isn't being used to make artificial oil.
Ethanol has to be distilled. Again water problem. Huge energy expendature and worse ethanol likes to be mixed with water so 100% ethanol can't be exposed to the atmosphere. They have filters to desalinize seawater, maybe filters is the way to go.
The great thing about biodiesel is that water and vegetable oil don't mix. Yeah it has the glycerin problem and this and that but nothing smart minds can't solve. Other than we can't grow enough of it and still eat and still have tropical rain forests.
Musings by Robert
robert-funny you should mention that. Water too, may be a limiting variable as Peak Oil unfolds. Two colleagues and I have a paper pending in Science called "Burning Water - The Energy Return on Water Invested", showing that many alternative energy technologies, especially biofuels, use an order of magnitude more water than fossil fuel extraction. Wind and solar obviously use next to none. We calculated "EROWI" statistics for 8 different energy sources. We also showed that in the next 20 years, a majority of the world population will live in countries that have zero or minimal extra water to allocate to energy production -I will post a summary of that paper here once/if it gets published.
http://www.pennwellblogs.com/sst/eds_threads/labels/HSMC.php
Silicon fabs use a lot of deionized water but I don't have a number it is probably recycleable. Compared to thermoelectric or ethanol, it is probably close enough to none.
Given cheap energy, making clean water is trivial. But clean water is necessary to make energy.
Ireland exported food during the potato famine. As did India during some terrible 19th century famines when the monsoons failed. Food and energy will follow the money this upcoming century. Before railroads, it was impossible to move staple foods by land in or out of a famine area. Maybe that was a good thing.
Hi Nate,
Thanks for your work.
See if you can get in touch with this guy http://www.sredmond.com/vthr_index.htm
He has a modified wood gasifier that he claims works best with green wood chips.
(I commented on this at your previous post but days after it was posted).
Hmmm.
This sounds very curious to me. Im not really a firewood expert per se other than doing some numbers - everyone has been pretty emphatic in telling me that wet wood is a no-no, which is why they work so hard to dry it - many even put some extra wood they are about to burn NEXT to the woodstove for a day or two while its on, so as to get extra dry. I'll check out the link, but my mind is already working on why we WANT so much stuff and the drivers that underlie this behaviour....
There might be a two other reasons for that - the wood helps as thermal mass to keep the area warmer longer, and a wood stove is very dry, and to the extent more water is in the air, the more comfortable it is. (Yes, the amount is truly trivial - but sometimes, we don't notice benefits/disadvantages when looking at what we do.) I specifically try to dry wet clothes when the fire is burning, for just that reason - though the main reason, of course, is that they dry faster.
But the other thing about storing/drying firewood - how cold is it when you bring it in? I try to stack a few days worth of wood in the sun, and bring it in near the stove in the afternoon - wood in the room at 55° F is a lot better than wood at 25° F. The unheated basement is my other burning storage area, a solution for a week of gray and damp days around freezing.
Hi Nate, great article. The first part would make an excellent primer too.
Would be very interested to see what the EROWI paper says.
Cheers :)
"You can never solve a problem on the level on which it was created."
Albert Einstein
Here I sit contemplating a pile of green maple that I have cut. I've been slowly busting it up to dry, which takes time away from another project of building storm doors so that I will need less firewood for heat. Sigh! Caught between a stump and a cold place.
Fortunately, maple is easy to bust. In fact 'bustability' is another important parameter left out of the firewood measurement statistics. I would hate to see the energy expended on trying to use black gum for firewood. Also fortunately, in Western OR where I live the summers are very hot and dry, providing a quicker 'natural kiln' for the busted up wood.
The time issue looms extremely large when applied to PV. PV attains positive EROI numbers but on a cloudy winter day, I would like my omelet cooked right now and not have to wait a day or even a few hours for it..... back to busting wood.
Awesome article, the top part is fundamental to discussion on any issue about changing the system, using alternative fuels etc. There is a project called drive 55 http://www.drive55.org/pn/index.php trying to get speed limits changed, would be far safer for all concerned and take a massive bite into our fuel use in a very short time, would also make the roads safer for other forms of transport as less vehicles would be passing you if you where traveling at 20 and them at 55 rather than them at 70+.
The point about the firewood is useful too, designing a solar kiln would be an awesome project and very useful for the movement, especially if you could use its heat to cook on with a small amount of supplementary burning of the wood you just dried :)
Buying kiln dried firewood is just silly. It burns like paper.
It works ok for splitting into small pieces for kindling to start a fire. But I was never use it as the primary fuel source in my wood burning stove.
Not all sellers use kiln drying. I have found that the overpriced bundles sold at Home Depot and Lowes do, but many small local places by me sell it by the cord, naturally dried/seasoned, split, deliverd, and stacked at your house for a good price.
don't most fireplaces have air vents?
what i mean is control the oxygen, control the combustion.
add water to the wood and then you have to evaporate the water before the wood can burn.
Edit. i just read a link posted below me about wood, apparently turning down o2 causes problems with tar and incomplete combustion. My new suggestion is to heat water in a sealed pressure container (no excess humidity).
Exactly dbar. Kiln drying of firewood is a huge waste of uneeded energy chasing timely currency and orders of untimely deliveries.
Nate's article is top notch nonetheless, I especially like when he brings the fiat dollar into the energy equation and then vacates/sidesteps the thought/ramifications rather timely :o)
The fiat handlers care little of whom makes or contrives actions, laws, populace democrazies, or usurped adjusted directives of human wills...As long as they control the medium that has the final deciding factor, then the war between finite resources and ever infinite fiat will escalate. It is a losing/jugglin' balancing act based on an increasingly stupidfied society that can not fathom the value of cheap energy in their daily needs of unlimited mammon consumption. Such was that life. The shock waves continue to reverberate, but our programmed blind denseness can no longer feel the warnings.
Excellent thoughts sir.
Takecare
Regarding EROEI on wood.
I loved the book Better Off by Eric Brende and wondered just what the minimites do in the winter.
Of course they chop wood - no wood splitters involved.
In the winter the ground is frozen and it's perfect for
getting in, culling trees, hauling out the logs when they're
mostly dry. Then split them in the cool of fall or spring.
I just ran across this:
http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/CaseStudies/TucsonZEH1Report.pdf
a Rucson "zero energy home" that has a clothes drier! They budget and use 1/3 of the total electrical use of my family of 4 just for lighting! Their actual electrical use seems to be over 2x that of my family.
In our home it was intolerable that the gas fired water heater takes 1/4 of our entire yearly natural gas use (and we live in Ontario where there is a thing called winter and much natural gas is used to heat the house). So we went with a 19 gallon electric water heater. The standby losses are 1/2 or less of the old heater (in dollars) and heating costs are slightly more expensive. We look forward to time-of-day electricity pricing because that'll cut water heating costs by 25%.
At 20,000,000 BTU/cord of mixed hardwood and given our home burns the equivalent of about 350 ccf/natural gas in the winter that means it would take about 1.8 cords of wood to heat our home. I wonder how many trees that would be and how many years it would take to grow that much wood.
I'm sure its all over the place but a figure you often hear is one cord per acre per year.
Note that many consider coppicing to be the most sustainable and efficient way to grow and harvest firewood.
A frind of mine on the EcoAction Committee tells a story about his youth when he was stacking firewod in a shed. His uncle, seeing him toiling, told him: "See that woodshed? It works harder than you do." The point being that drying the wood in the shed was giving more benefit than the splitting and stacking. Your article makes this point nicely. He has since gone on to become a madhouser, building energy efficient shacks for the homeless in Georgia and also converting lawnmower engines to run on syngas produced when making charcoal for the shack stoves. These run generators. Small-scale, reliable innovation.
I took Amtrack once across the country. One of the nice things about it was meeting the other passengers and playing many games of backgammon. I've ridden the TGV and Acela as well but they give a different feeling.
Does your freind have a Web presence or site?
Well, the mad housers do and a little of Frank's handywork can be seen in the car that was converted into a generator/water heater. The biogas project is something he wrote to me about.
Alternatively, using extra time and the 'free' drying heat of the sun dramatically increases the energy return but gives a lower return on both labor and EROTI.
Though perhaps there's a better compromise in between the two. Use a solar collector to power a kiln. You still use "free" energy but use a little technology to compress the time line.
In the end, the oil you burn is solar energy time shifted over millenia, rather than months. Almost all of the energy we use is time shifted solar energy. Solar, wind, coal, oil and biomass, are all just different means of storage for solar energy.
Basically what we need is a way to collect ambient energy as efficiently as possible, and a way to store that energy as efficiently as possible. Oil has been the fundamental driver of the economy because it's pre-collected energy and it stores energy quite efficiently, relatively speaking. Taking solar energy and growing trees over years, and then drying them with the sun over months is terribly inefficient in terms of energy use and time, but it is easy to do.
On the other hand, take a solar concentrator, and then store that energy in a high efficiency batter is more difficult, technologically speaking, but is a way better system from an efficiency stand point. It seems wholly ridiculous that we could possibly have an energy crisis when we've got a source of energy so powerful that it can cook food at a distance of 93 billion miles. The crisis isn't about energy, it's about having to overhaul our infrastructure to make use of the energy that's already there.
'Alternatively, using extra time and the 'free' drying heat of the sun dramatically increases the energy return but gives a lower return on both labor and EROTI' (Energy Return on Time Invested)
I should probably read the rest of the article first, but this is wrong. Or based on another idea of time than mine.
If letting the wood sit in the sun means that the scrap/lower quality wood is used for heating, that means that less wood is used for heating (leaving aside the idea that 'co-generation' is a refinement - scrap wood used for heating can also be used for drying - but like trying to determine the energy cost of passable roads, this spins out of control quickly).
The value of time is easily obscured by 'economic' thinking - this is one reason sustainable practices seem so easily trumped by more 'efficient' ones.
But the firewood producers have another time constraint - how quickly the wood grows. To the extent these are not in balance, they can simply plot their maximum return in economic terms, but not in long term energy.
And that is the real point. German insulation rules about homes is deeply connected to German forestry - over the long term, we will need to be much more efficient than we are now, if we all wish to stay warm in the winter. And that is where the equation about energy return on time is wrong - we will need the energy, and only by allowing for enough time can we possibly hope for a realistic solution.
And yes, that is an attitude which seems contradictory to how our economy works - or even most of human experience.
Your article reminds me of the research that has been done on calorie restriction versus increasing life-span. It is almost as if we have been programed to use only so much food energy. We can use it slowly, and live a long time; or we can use it quickly, and die of obesity-related illnesses.
Nate - I'm sorry I don't have time to read all this but since I got some recent experience of burning stuff I've found your articles on wood to be interesting.
I spent quite a bit of time trying to burn some recently cut trees and garden litter that had been sitting out in the rain for several months. That was a real pig to get going.
I also burned an old chest of drawers (that was riddled with wood worm) - boy did that burn brightly. I was amazed how quckly it caught and the amount of energy released.
Sun drying wood presumably is a good way of capturing more solar energy or upgrading the energy you already have - by simply drying out the timber.
Its actually quite a fascinating example. Green wood must have ERoEI close to or less than 1. Old sun dried wood ERoEI way over 10?
Kiln dried wood for heating purposes is ridiculious with any other source beyond mother natures sun and father times seasonal wait. Kiln drying is nothing more than speed induced lower percentages of moisture. The summer/solar heat does a fine job of this when the subject concerns firewood. The summer kiln drying of furniture grade material takes much more effort and precision.
Firewood, (hickory and white oak being some of the best btu examples) are 12-20% moisture content after a season of solar drying. (And this is not unweathered enclosed drying.) This moisture content is perfect for most wood burning devices. And, again, it is easily achieved with no other actions or inputs of energy being displaced beyond stacking it in full sun with slight breezes.
Once firewood is artificially dried under a natural state of 12-14% outdoor moisture content, then it is indeed the material that produces fast/quick heat. Yet, it produces roughly the same amount of capable heated btu's regardless, but is the heating device engineered to capture that fast burn? Or, does most of it go up the chimney/oxygen vent unharnessed....? And thus, the extra heat is therefore wasted twice. A person has to remember that a rough subject such as firewood has many more rough examples of human usage in practice than any possibilities of ultimate efficiency.
In practice we are all perfect...if only more of us could observe practical purposes beyond our oiled up lifestyles and that fiat medium it caters to, then we might have a working chance at practical futured solutions.
Takecare
On your Transport Efficiency graph, is the information saying that there is less benefit to slowing down a SUV than an energy efficient vehicle? The graph doesn't really show much at the upper end of the speed range.
It may be that the absolute level of fuel used is so high with these vehicles that even a small percentage saving provides a reasonably good number of gallons of fuel saved. For example, to go 100 miles, it takes:
At 46 mpg - 2.17 gallons
At 38 mpg - 2.63 gallons
Fuel lost at lower mpg 0.46 gallons
At 11 mpg - 9.09 gallons
At 10 mpg - 10.00 gallons
Fuel lost at lower mpg 0.91 gallons
Hi Gail
Even with large trucks, slower speeds increase fuel savings.
This Ford study gives evidence:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/05/ford_charts_imp.html
Hope this helps!
Haha! Some funny bits but also some deep thoughts, thanks. I will reread when my head stops spinning!
I especially like the calculation for the amount of energy expected to be used and how much actually existed -Oooops, somethings got to give.
Isn't one issue though that you consider the Earth as a closed system -when in fact it is part of the much bigger sun-Earth energy system? If we start using solar energy in any meaningful way the pie increases.
Also, a parting thought, I did a stint at CERN for a time and was always impressed by how much energy those little particles could hold. A single proton can in theory weigh as much as an apple or an elephant! At those fractions of light speed the passage of time itself shrinks to next to nothing...
Nick.
Solar flows are part of "X". But Y% is very high by the time we upgrade solar energy into the forms a "fast" society demands, so X * Y% in the case of solar gives us not much left over for Z (consumption). We either can improve technology on solar capture, or slow down the whole system so that we need less energy dense infrastructure.
"X * Y% in the case of solar gives us not much left over for Z (consumption)"
Not really. X is so large that the efficiency of capture isn't that important - it's really more of a practical & cost problem, rather than a question of having enough left over. I.E., it's nice to collect enough energy on one's roof to provide for one's needs, so we want efficiency to be high enough to do that. Similarly, higher efficiency reduces costs.
Our total solar insolation is around 100,000 terawatts, and our consumption (excluding the heat & light that we always forget, that I discussed in another post...) is the equivalent of about 5 TW. There's plenty of solar power...
I argue higher efficiency increases costs.
Efficiency increases requires more technology.
The technology has to be built (amortize the costs over its life) and maintained. In essence we become the slaves of technology. Technology allows for more people to become slaves to technology! It enables for more people to be fed on 1 acre of land, but those people must maintain the systems which if they breakdown will cause the death of the maintainers. Thus the maintainers are in a panicked state, constantly trying to have fewer people sustaining the machines, which sustain everyone, but only succeeding in causing more growth and more panic!
and fyi, people currently use 12TW, 72TW is easily achievable wind power, and solar insolation is as you say.