Inflationary Collapses, or The NPV of Grandchildren

Suppose you own a forest. You'd like to make some money from the trees and you are considering two options. One is to clearcut the whole thing and sell the timber, which will net you $X. This particular forest happens to be on a steep erodable slope such that the soil will probably wash off and no more trees will grow after one clearcutting.

Your other option is to manage the forest sustainably. You consult a sustainable forestry expert who estimates that you could cut an amount of timber that would net you $kX this year, where k is some number much less than one, and the same amount of timber year after year in perpetuity (which would produce more $$ when adjusted for inflation). Thus k is roughly the fraction of the timber you'd get in one go from the clearcut that you could cut each year on a sustainable basis (the "roughly" comes from correcting for harvesting and management expenses, etc). The expert believes in sustainable forestry and emphasizes to you the benefits for the wildlife (who live in the trees), downstream neighbors (who won't get flooded with rivers choked with your silt), and fish (who can spawn in the unsullied gravels of the streams).

Before acceding to these persuasive arguments, you check with your accountant. What would she recommend?

I should say at the outset: yes I know this is a gross oversimplification of the tradeoffs present in real forestry. But bear with me - let's just take this premise and see what your accountant would recommend.

He or she would probably perform what's called a net present value calculation to determine what was economically rational. The idea is as follows. Somehow we'd like to compare the value of getting a one time payment of $X with an infinite stream of smaller $kX dollar payments from now into the indefinite future. Clearly we'd like to somehow add up the benefits of all the future payments into a single number that we can compare to $X (the sum we'd net if we just clearcut the forest).

It might seem that this sum will be infinite if the forest lasts forever, but it isn't so. Let's take it step by step. Clearly, this year's $kX of sustainable income from the forest is money that is directly comparable to this year's $X of clearcut payment. However, next year's payment seems to be somehow not quite as good, since we won't get it till next year. The trick to comparing is to notice what money we would have to invest now to get $kX next year. If interest rates are currently i%, then it would seem like if we invest $kX/(1+i) now, we would have $kX next year. So the net present value (NPV) of $kX next year is $kX/(1+i) (which is smaller than $kX).

Which interest rate should we use? Well, a sensible thing (since we are overall making a long term comparision) is to use a safe investment like a long US treasury bond. Right now, the nominal yield on those is about 5.25%. However, it's a little tricky because next year we'll have the same amount of wood, not dollars. And the wood will be worth more in dollars because of inflation. We can correct for this, however, by using real interest rates (minus inflation), rather than nominal ones. The treasury also issues 30 year inflation indexed bonds. The yield on those is a decent estimate of what the market thinks inflation-adjusted yields will be over the long haul. That number is about 2.5% presently.

You might think you should compare against something with a higher yield than treasury bonds, but assuming all those hedge fund managers, investment banks, and credit rating agencies have done their homework right on setting bond price/yields in the bond market, any bond that yields more should mainly be doing so because it's riskier and the extra yield should exactly take into account the extra risk. So let's stick with treasury bond yields. Then i, the interest rate, is presently 2.5%. (And let's assume that the $kX is net of insuring the forest so we don't have to worry about the risk in our future income stream from fire etc - in reality companies use higher internal discount rates to account for the various risks/uncertainties that plague projects).

You might also think that perhaps wood will get more valuable in future, more so than the general rise in prices embodied in the inflation rate. But let's assume for simplicity now that the real price of wood is anticipated to stay fixed (eg by the lumber futures market). (Uncertainty in future wood prices would tend to make us choose a higher interest rate to compensate for the risk). We'll take up price changes in a later thought experiment.

So then we can just proceed out to further years. So far, the value of the income stream is $kX (for this year), plus $kX/(1+i) for next year. For the year after that, the amount of money we would need to have to get $kX in two years (in current dollars) is $kX/(1+i)^2 (because that amount would get multiplied in a compounded manner by (1+i) on two years to give the $kX payment). Clearly, we can keep doing this for all the years.

I'll spare you the algebraic detail, but if you work out the series it sums up that the net present value of the future income stream is $X x k(1+i)/i.

So the condition that the net present value of the sustainably managed forest would be higher than profit from clearcutting it is that k > i/(1+i). Now, remembering that the proper i right now is 2.5%, we see that the equation is equivalent to k > 1/41. In other words, if we have more than 41 years worth of forest growth on the land, then we are definitely financially better off clearcutting the forest than managing it sustainably forever.

I note that in translating profit ratios to forest age directly, we are making a crude approximation. In reality, it's worse than this because the economies of scale in doing the harvesting and managing will be greater if we clearcut, and not only that, but it's likely there will be some regrowth after the clearcut and young trees create wood faster than mature trees. Thus where trees take a long time to regrow, you can see why there's a financial advantage to clearcutting as fast as the regulators will allow. And that's why lumber companies often do it: they have a fiduciary duty to provide their shareholders with the maximum possible return on shareholder capital, and clearcutting frequently provides it.

Age structure of US forests. Source: USDA Forest Service.

If it seems like this net present value calculation is some kind of complex technical accounting rule that ought to be changed for the benefit of forests, I'd like to try to disabuse you of that idea. As far I can see, any economic system in which:

  1. natural ecosystems like forests are private property and can be traded for money
  2. people are allowed and encouraged to maximize their own self interest
  3. interest is paid on loans
will have this property. In particular, an equivalent way of looking at it is this. If k < 1/41, you would make more money by cutting down the forest and investing the money in treasury bonds. (Of course, regulations could, and do, limit what landowners can do, but the finances dictate what self-interested landowners would like to do, if they can).

We've been running our civilization on those three rules for many centuries now, so the NPV logic is very deeply embedded in the whole way Western culture works. To change it would be a massive cultural wrench.

An important point is that the actual current price of lumber should make no difference to our decision criterion. Unless we can predict changes in prices in the future, the economics of our decision should mainly be sensitive to interest rates.

Now, in this condition of whether sustainable management of the forest makes economic sense or not, recall k > i/(1+i), the variable k is more-or-less a property of the forest - the speed with which it grows (modulo some correction for the cost of managing it). However, the interest rate i is a property of the economy, and indeed is somewhat under the control of the central bank (the Federal Reserve in the US). (I say somewhat because the Fed targets short-term rates and long-term rates don't move exactly with short-term rates, though mostly so). Because of it's importance to these kinds of NPV calculations, interest rates basically set how much society cares about the future. Specifically, let's first look at some history of real interest rates to get a feeling for the range they vary in:

Nominal yields on ten year treasuries (1955-Feb 2006), nominal rates minus CPI-U inflation over the prior 12 months, and inflation adjusted ten year treasury yield. Source: Federal Reserve Bank.

Note that the best estimate of long-term real interest rates is the yield of the inflation-adjusted treasury (the blue line). However, this series only goes back to 2003, so I've also included an estimate of real rates constructed by subtracting the consumer price index change over the prior 12 months from the nominal rate on regular 10 year treasury bonds. That line (green) goes back to 1955, but should only be viewed as a rough approximation of anticipated real interest rates (since long term expectations of future inflation could vary somewhat from the value the CPI happened to take over the last 12 months). In particular, it's probably never been the case that long term expectations of real interest rates were negative.

Anyway, the graph gives us the sense that real rates vary from 0%-8% or so over the course of recent history. Let's have a look at the shape of the net value function for the rest of the century as a function of those interest rates. Ie what I'm about to plot is how much the cashflow from the forest (or anything else) would contribute to NPV in year Y relative to how much it contributes in 2006.

Discount applied to future cash flows (in present dollars) as a function of year for varying real interest rates.

In general, as you can see, the degree to which future cash flows contribute to present value is highly dependent on interest rates. When interest rates are high, the degree to which future cashflows contribute is very small and it's very unlikely that it would make financial sense to manage the forest sustainably. On the other hand, when interest rates are low, the discount function is still non-negligible far out into the century, and managing the forest sustainably is more likely to be the profitable option.

A way to summarize the situation is the half life (the point at which the contribution from a future cash-flow drops to half), which is given by log(2)/log(1+i). If we plot that, it looks like this:

Half life of discount function as it depends on interest rate. The red square is based on interest rates as of this writing.

Again, when interest rates are low (below 1%), the half life of our interest in future cash-flows gets up around a century. However, when they are high, it drops down to only a decade or two, and the poor trees have no chance.

As an aside, it's interesting to note that the very controversial acquisition of Pacific Lumber (then owners of the Headwaters Forest) by Maxxam, which was financed almost entirely by junk bonds and led to greatly increased cutting of Pacific Lumber's timber holdings (and a long litany of litigation), took place in 1985. If you look back up at my first graph of interest rates, you'll see that real interest rates in 1985 were just about at their peak of around 8% (on the nominal-CPI method of estimation). This suggests that the influence of high real interest rates on unsustainable cutting of forests is a real effect.

Also, during the era of high interest rates in the 1970s and 1980s, forest cut rates increased. Since then they have been reduced, and we are importing more timber instead. So this is at least consistent with the hypothesis that interest rates are important in affecting the desire to liquidate natural resources more quickly.

Rates of growing stock growth, removals, and mortality on productive unreserved forest, 1953-2002. Source: USDA Forest Service.

So in summary, real interest rates control how far project finances are sensitive to cashflow into the future (what economists call inter-temporal preferences). In a sense, they control how much the economy cares about the future.

Now, this is not usually the main focus that the business community places on interest rates. Instead, the focus is on the effects of interest rates on the short term growth of the economy and on inflation. Generally speaking, when the central bank wants to accelerate the economy (or prop up an ailling one), it targets a lower interest rates. This makes it cheaper for businesses and households to borrow, thus encouraging them to do so, which can increase both consumption and capital investment. It also makes it less rewarding to save, and this also encourages consumption. This tends to increase the amount of economic activity in the near term.

Correspondingly, when the central bank is concerned about inflation (which economist frequently view as aggregate demand for goods and services (and/or labor) growing faster than businesses can supply those goods and services, or trained labor can become available), it is likely to increase interest rates which has the reverse effect and slows the economy. This, eventually, will reduce inflationary pressures.

Note that the Fed does not directly control interest rates - what it directly controls is the size of the monetary base, the amount of currency in circulation and the quantity of bank reserves on deposit with the Fed. However, what it does with that power is adjust the monetary base via open market operations in such a way as to maintain short term interest rates as near as possible to a stated target. And it has got increasingly good at that:

Fed target and actual daily market rate for Fed funds. Source: This is Figure 18.2 of Money, Banking, and Financial Markets by Stephen Cecchetti (a book I highly recommend).

In short, the interest rate is viewed as a big lever that roughly controls the speed of the economy. Push it down (lower rates) and the economy goes faster, but if it goes too fast, inflation is likely to ensue. Pull it up, and the economy slows down. You cannot read the business press or economics blogs for any length of time without reading constant discussion of what the Fed is likely to do to interest rates and how that will affect the economy.

And herein lies the paradox. On the face of it, the question of whether the economy should care about the far future or not is fairly unrelated to the question of whether the economy should be sped up or slowed down in the near future. But in fact, the same lever manages both things. And it seems to me that there is a potential problem there.

Let me switch to another thought experiment. Suppose humanity were faced with the following dilemma. We could carry out a series of projects which would result in unsustainably consuming the entire biosphere to make food, fiber, and biofuels for the present and near-term human population, but which would mean that there would be no biosphere for our grandchildren (who would therefore all die). Under this alternative, we recklessly use up water, degrade soil, and throw away genetic diversity in such a way that plant productivity in future is irretrievably damaged. Alternatively, we could experience a decrease in our lifestyle now, which would mean that the fossil fuels would last longer, and the biosphere could continue to produce a fairly constant amount of food, fiber, and fuel indefinitely. Which should we do?

Again, I stress that this is a hypothetical thought experiment. I realize that the actual human dilemma in the 21st century is more complex and much less clear than this. However, bear with me. I'm making an extreme simplification of the situation because I want to explore what seem to me some less than optimal things about the decisions free market economics suggests in these cases. It's also not totally out of the question that we face a complicated variant of this choice: biologists do estimate that humans already appropriate 15%-25% of net primary productivity and those biologists are pretty concerned about it:

Land use has generally been considered a local environmental issue, but it is becoming a force of global importance. Worldwide changes to forests, farmlands, waterways, and air are being driven by the need to provide food, fiber, water, and shelter to more than six billion people. Global croplands, pastures, plantations, and urban areas have expanded in recent decades, accompanied by large increases in energy, water, and fertilizer consumption, along with considerable losses of biodiversity. Such changes in land use have enabled humans to appropriate an increasing share of the planet's resources, but they also potentially undermine the capacity of ecosystems to sustain food production, maintain freshwater and forest resources, regulate climate and air quality, and ameliorate infectious diseases. We face the challenge of managing trade-offs between immediate human needs and maintaining the capacity of the biosphere to provide goods and services in the long term.
So the world is filling up in several senses, and peak oil is just one symptom of that. We can probably expect to be hitting a variety of resource constraints in this century, and having to work around all of them.

Anyway, whether you buy that or not, just suppose that the situation was as I describe it in my thought experiment. In a more-or-less free-market world, each individual decision to cut down this or that forest, or take all the straw from this or that field for biofuels, would be taken separately based on the profitability for the individual or company owning the land. Recall that a main control on whether you want to slash and burn something or manage it sustainably is real interest rates. The higher interest rates are, the faster your NPV discount function decays in future years, and the less sensitive economic decision-making becomes to anything that might happen in the future.

So the question becomes as the economy hits various resource constraints, what is likely to happen to interest rates?

Well both theory and past experience suggest that resource constraints are inflationary. The theoretical argument is that resource constraints reduce aggregate supply of goods and services, and unless aggregate demand is correspondingly reduced also, price levels will increase as people enter a bidding war for the goods and services that are still available. To manage this contraction (possibly in the face of people borrowing more aggressively to maintain their lifestyle) the central bank will have to increase interest rates.

The best empirical evidence of this comes from oil shocks. Major oil shocks have all caused a big spike in inflation over and above whatever the prevailing rate was beforehand (and indeed they've been the main cause of big spikes in inflation in the US in the last 50 years. This is not to discount that other factors have caused lower but longer-lasting inflation. Also, this is not to discount that there are some tempting arguments that we are overdue for a credit contraction - but I view that as something likely to be short-term (decade or sub-decade) if it occurs. Over the mid-to-long term, a cascade of resource constraints has got to be inflationary.

So if that's true, we might expect that a biosphere constraint (along with other resource constraints like peak oil) will tend to cause inflation. In the current economic consensus, the correct central bank response to that will be to increase interest rates with a view to throttling the economy back and reducing inflation.

And the problem with that is those higher interest rates will sway the balance of decision-making towards less sustainable management of the biosphere.

In other words, it appears to me that there is a potential for a nasty positive feedback here that could promote a downward spiral. One might call it an inflationary collapse: the harder the resource constraint bites, the more tendency towards inflation in the economy, the higher interest rates will go, and the less incentive anyone will have to manage their piece of the biosphere sustainably.

Now, there's one dangling point here that I should clear up. In my first example (the individual forest) I assumed that price rises were not forseeable; prices were expected to stay flat. However, in this example of consuming the entire biosphere, someone might argue that the classic Hotelling analysis of a finite resource should apply (eg as discussed by Dave a while back). Basically, the Hotelling analysis says that if you know how much of a resource there is left, then as it becomes more scarce it's price should go up exponentially with the exponential constant being the interest rate. If that situation obtained, then the net present value analysis above (which assumed constant real prices) does not apply.

However, it does not seem that the Hotelling model is all that applicable to real resource constraints. In particular, if experience to date is any guide, it seems that we usually have terrible information about the amount of resource left. This is obviously true of oil (think OPEC reserve distortions, uncertainties over future recovery rates, undiscovered oil, etc). So the effect of this has been to make the futures price-curve more-or-less flat. As of yesterday, it looked like this:

Price of a barrel of oil on Nymex future contracts as of 6/28/06. Source: New York Mercantile Exchange.

However, over the course of the last few years, the shape of the back-end has been whipping up and down (in and out of contango) but always staying within $10 of the current price. Meanwhile, the current price has been rising exponentially at about 30% per year, much faster than interest rates. Thus the Hotelling theory really doesn't seem to help us: at any given time the futures curve has been more-or-less flat, because the information about the resource was too poor to constrain the price curve well, and so what the back end of it is probably doing is wandering up and down driven by momentum traders. In the meantime, the spot price has continued to rise, on average, much faster than interest rates.

Now, the situation in biosphere resource constraints is that the information is even poorer than on oil reserves (this will have to wait for future posts to flesh out, but aquifer volumes, etc are very poorly understood). And thus we might expect whatever resource constraints there are to show up in the same not-very-forseeable way that peak-oil seems to have been showing up.

And that's a problem. Because it means that the economy will not get the right signals to anticipate the problem, and then when it does hit the constraint, inflation and high interest rates will tend to promote exactly the wrong kind of choices.

I'm not saying that this is definitely going to happen - I don't know at present. But it seems plausible enough to be worth worrying about. It also reinforces two points:

  • Improving the information available to the economy about the true situation with resource constraints is extremely valuable, environmentally as much as economically.
  • Situations in the environment where there are lags between causing the damage and experiencing the consequence are exceptionally dangerous if the lags are long compared to the half-life of the discount function. The oceans warming up in response to carbon emissions and the melting of ice sheets come particularly to mind.
 Whoohooooo!! (making myself into a "cannon ball" and jumping in with a splash).

I am experiencing something like this on a personal level. I've sold on Ebay for nearly a decade now, but I think I'm on their S-list, you see, I'm a powerseller but don't do PayPal. Thus, I'm paying about 1/2 the fees I "should" be from their viewpoint, and they seem to be leaning on me. Leaning on me means all kinds of auctions being ended by them and some really scary credit card fraud that is only on the card I only use for them.

Meanwhile I'm finding myself working 14-hour days, running on an increasingly-faster treadmill to stay in one place!

If 10 years ago I'd just kept on drawing and drawing and drawing, and developed my art skills instead of my Ebay skills, I'd not be spending any 14 hour days, since I work fast when I draw hehe. I'd have a valuable skill and some magazine covers under my belt, and a bit of a name, and truth be known, some social capital. It would be a sustainable way of living.

Instead, I only have a long enemies list (everyone on Ebay gets one after a while, some real nuts on there) and am looking at declaring bankruptcy, and living out of some cheap sleep-in-able car since the Prius will go back to Toyota. I chose the short-term better looking fork in the road, and it's led to stress, lack of social capital, and a lifetime of debt.

If I'd chosen the other fork, yeah, I'd have given away a lot of beautiful work for cheap, but kept on living cheap, built up a network of real-life friends (people like ya when you're an artist, it's weird) and prolly have a decent amount of savings in the bank.

This is another reason why I'm skeptical these days of the something-for-nothing hydrogen/ethanol/oil shale crazes now, even if they can be forced to work for a while, you'll end up crashing and having to go back and learn what you should have learned the first time around.

Nice post. I'll look forward to the discussion on this one.

However I have doubts about two elements in your argument:

  1. Use of interest rate as discount rate
  2. Role of interest rate in liquidation decision

Interest rate as discount rate

A project's cash flows are not discounted at an interest rate. They are discounted according to the weighted average cost of capital of the project owner - called a discount rate. The important distinction here is that cost of capital contains both time value and risk elements.

This is most commonly derived using the Capital Asset Pricing Model (CAPM) according to the formula:

Risk free rate + beta * (Market return - Risk Free rate)

Here the risk free rate is the equivalent of your treasury bill. The second term is made up of beta (a measure of the risk of the individual project relative to the market of projects) times the spread over the risk free rate that a project of market level risk demands.

This is important because the majority of the CoC capital of the forest (or any other) project could come from the risk element, not the risk free element.

This would imply that stable political systems that provide some assurance of returns over the longer term are far more protective of resources than those that do not. This is intuitive and seems to be proven in reality. If you could lose the forest in five year, the incentive to cut goes way up. This is the case in many developing countries where politicians or land owners would rather have a million dollars in a Swiss bank account than 10 million dollars in forest assets.

Maybe the reason that Maxxam was pressured to cut down their holding was not the prevailing interest rate, but rather the contribution to their cost of capital (discount rate) from junk bonds, which require a higher rate of interest than most other debt financing.

If you are looking for a very rough and easy number to use as a discount rate, try 10%. This is not far off of the average return of on US publicly traded stocks over most time periods going back as far as 100 years. While an individual stand alone project with concentrated ownership would require a premium and forest project have their own risk features (more or less than the market), we can ignore that for now.

Plus, a question:

I am a bit confused by the meaning of 41 years in the post, although I expect this is my fault. If we use my 10% discount rate figure, this comes down to 11 years (1.1/.1). Are we now better off after only 11 years?

I think it means that $X = an annuity of $kX for that number of years. An annuity of 10% of X for 11 years is worth X today. An annuity of 2.5% of X for 41 years is worth X today. I can't relate this to your use of 41 years in the post, but again expect this is my fault. It's just after lunch here and my mind is not yet clear.

2) Role of interest rate in liquidation decision

Unless the interest rate only impacts your project, the situation seems far more complex. In the Maxxam case, junk bonds force up their cost of capital, but not those of competitors. However, the underlying interest rate is the same for everyone and thus must be subject to adjustments in the greater economy.

If everyone saw higher rates and wanted to cut, there would be a lumber surplus and prices would go down. To the degree that the interest rate reflects inflation, the increases in discount rates (in the denominator) would be balanced by an increase in prices (in the numerator).

Is there any evidence that resource liquidation follows trends in interest rates? Was it high in the 70s and low in the 90s.

I don't know the answer to this one. I'll try to figure it out while hoping someone else provides the answer first.

Nice comments Jack.  I agree about the use of higher internal discount rates (and alluded to it in comments like "in reality companies use higher internal discount rates to account for the various risks/uncertainties that plague projects", but didn't want to make an already long post longer.

The 41 comes from 102.5/2.5.  If a higher (real) discount rate was used, then the number would be smaller (eg at 10% it would be 110/10 = 11).  As you say, it's the point at which an annuity paying at the discount rate would exactly balance the income from sustainably managing the forest if the forest's characteristics allowed the sustainable income to be k times the income from consuming the forest this year.  Probably no forest would stand much of a chance at a 10% discount rate, which would require that the sustainable income is only 1/11th of the immediate consumption income.  (Then I suspect equipment capacity constraints become important also - borrowing to invest in new equipment in order to do more clearcutting will be disfavored also and that provides a negative feedback - I have a whole nother post in mind on the issues with capital investment).

I agree that Maxxam's junk bonds were likely a particularly important feature of that particular situation.  However, the graph I posted above does suggest that the cut-rate generally increased in the 1970s and 1980s.  However, this point could certainly stand to have further evidence adduced.  I intend, when I get around to it, to have a look at the international statistics.  We might posit that the cutting will show some tendency to move around to wherever discount rates are highest.

In a healthy economy, I agree with you that "If everyone saw higher rates and wanted to cut, there would be a lumber surplus and prices would go down".  However, in an economy where resource constraints were causing aggregate supply to struggle to meet aggregate demand, thus sparking inflation, there is excess demand for the products of the biosphere and the high interest rates (plus a high risk premium due to the uncertainties as you note) will provide financial justification for unsustainable consumption of natural capital.  We might imagine a world in which an already slightly strained biosphere is now being used also for biofuels to replace depleting petroleum looking that way.

Stuart, I understand why the Fed would raise interest rates to reign in inflation under conditions of rapid economic growth ("over-heated"economy) with more goods and services being produced thereby reducing  associated borrowing and thus slow the economy.  However, why would this same strategy be employed under conditions of inflation due to resource constraits that result directly in economic contraction--no need for interest rates as an economic "brake"?
"I have a whole nother post in mind on the issues with capital investment"

Stuart, my far away favorite website for finance information, data and many free models is that of NYU Sterns school finance prof Aswath Damodaran:

http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/

Take a look. I will eagerly await your next post.

*

In my reading 41 (beside being one off the Adams' answer to all things :) gives the minimum portion of the resource you may liquidate sustainably (indefinately) in order to break even with immediate total liquidation now.

That is if you are able to liquidate 1/41 of the resource each  year indefinately you will be in financial tie with cutting it down right now. If you can sustainably take off bigger share per year you would (theoretically) prefer to do so.

I do agree that 10% is more real world discount rate, which immediately poses the question why lumber companies do not liquidate since it seems to be the most profitable decision.

My explanations go along these lines:

  1. If a company liquidates its principal resource in a snap it would have to invest additional resources for the liquidation process which along with the previous invesments will turn obsolate afterwards and will not payoff.

  2. Companies do price in the externalities which clear cut would cause. Ruined reputation, moonlike landscapes and Greenpeace members tied to trees are really bad for business.

  3. The companies (especially bigger once) have much less abstract view of the "market" as economists. Therefore they don't just "produce something" and expect the "market" to absorb it. It is all tied with contracts, and most of them are aware that overproduction by single one of them could cause significant price drop.

  4. Last but maybe most important, companies are made of people, and people usually have family, and most of them plan for retirement. Both of these lead people to prefer security over the long term than immediate profits in the short term. Whatever Adam Smith may have said greed is not always the dominant motivation.

All of these are very well applicable for all companies consuming non-renewable or slowly renewable resources. I think that both psychologically and economically people become worried if they see the business they run will deplete during their lifetime - some 20-30 years ahead or less. Usually you can not get humans to think 50 or 100 years ahead.
1/41th of the resource says nothing about what is sustainable, as far as I can tell.  What is sustainable is governed by ecological processes, not financial ones.

People are not rational actors, but rationalizers, and the math behind financial systems is a great excercise in justifying short-term interests over long-term inhabitability of the planet.  It basically tells people what they want to hear, given our inherent bias towards present rewards.  

Has anyone looked at Richard Douthwaite's work on the issue of responding to inflation from resource constraints by raising interest rates and how damaging that would be?

A quote: "Central bankers must therefore recognise that higher energy prices are necessary to enable the energy companies to develop more expensive sources of fuel, and that, consequently, they must allow the inflation to take its course. They must not choke it off by preventing the higher energy prices being reflected in the prices charged for the goods and services which use fossil energy. Inflation is the only relatively painless way that every price in the global economy can change by a different amount to reflect the new energy price level. The inflation needs to proceed for several years as, initially, firms will put prices up by only the amount their direct fuel costs rise. They will consequently require further increases later when the higher cost of the fuel used in the products they purchase works its way through to them and has to be passed on. Resisting inflation would essentially be an attempt to maintain the purchasing power of money in terms of the amount of energy it buys. This is obviously an inappropriate response if energy is getting scarcer and/or requires more resources to produce."

Source:  http://www.feasta.org/documents/energy/November2005.htm

Oh... think I was not clear enough. 1/41 is the financial threshold, not the physical (or biological etc). Compare this to the physical threshold and you will find whether financially it makes sense to go for sustainability or for caching in.

Example:

The forest has 5% of growth, so you can cut only 5% (1/20) sustainably. If discount rates are such (2.5%) the NPV of the forest would be higher if you manage it sustainably instead of clear cutting it.

If the discount rate is 10% the forest still renovates for 20 years but you have financial incentative to cut it right now, because you don't care that much for the future.

This has some very real world implication. Suppose I borrowed the money to buy that forest (with adjustable IR for simplicity). If interest rate is 2.5% and I get a return of 5% from my forest (skipping over some assumptions here) I could be paying the loan interest and get some profit. If IR of my loan goes to 10% then I will probably decide to clearcut the forest and repay the loan as I am forced to think short-term and get the cache now.

Sorry, missed to comment on the quote which is rather interesting indeed.

Personally as someone who lived once through hyperinflation I could not agree less with it :) What it misses is that with rising rates central banks targed containment rising of general price level, not the energy prices per se. If properly applied tighter monetary policy can suppress uncontrolled devaluation of the currency, while energy prices would be still rising relatively to the other goods and services though slower in nominal terms.

This would in fact benefit energy producers as they would still be facing rising profits in real term, while providing a stable monetary environment.

This gets into all the reasons that people like Michael Ruppert, Catherine Austin Fitts and Aaron Russo have been saying that until you change the way that money works, you change nothing.  Even if friendly aliens appeared and gave Earth an unlimited supply of zero point energy modules, biology and the economic system guarantees environmmental destruction, overshoot, and dieoff.

It is a disturbing thought that the best hope for the planet might be for all wealth to be concentrated into the hands of a few thousand "noble" families.  These elites, like Japanese feudal lords, would be biased in favour of sustainability, as their families could rule their domains forever.  Unruly peasants could always be culled by the samauri, controlling overshoot.

Tolkein had a similar idea in his fiction.  The utopian elven domians of Rivendell and Lothlorien were spared from clear cutting because they had immortal autocratic guardians who protected them with a military force of vassals.  No democracy, no upward mobility, and no economic growth were allowed.  The wiser people in the various elite clubs, councils, and commissions in our time appear to be working toward a similar goal.  (The fools want a nuclear armageddon so Jesus will come back.)

Wow Micro, I gotta read some Tolkien.

Most of this article is over my head, but I do know that the average American financial advisor will tell you to get it all, and get it now - hang the consequences.

Yes, underneath all of the swords and sorcery nonsense, Tolkein was a deep foe of population increase and industrialization.  He finessed the birth control issue, as his elves were gifted with a very low fertility rate to go along with their agelessness, deaths by violence matched births and there was no need for forced abortions or sterilizations to prevent overshoot.  But is was quite clear that the elves didn't even believe in farming, they lived off permaculture forest gardens like Amazon tribes.  And any man who entered the elven lands with an axe planning to build a log cabin or clear a farm caught an arrow in the chest before he broke a twig.  (Yes, like Bob's Earthmarines.)  The totalitarian social structure was also finessed as all members of the community were expected to share the same values and goals.  The elves were considered "free" despite being under the same regimes for 7000 years.  No one thought to overthrow Elrond or Galadriel, they were idealized as beloved monarchs, the wisest of the wise.  (Of course the tyrannies of Sauron and Saruman were contrasting examples of what happens when immortal rulers go bad.  In theory, a benevolent monarch is a good government, but real world royals have been a mixed bag.)  

I suppose that Green party members are trying to develop values close to Tolkein's ideal, but they are only 5% of the population.  The other 95% just want to buy stuff.

Yep gotta get ahold of some Tolkien, I've just not dug into his stuff. But I think he had the right ideas all right.

I did read somewhere that he grew up in a village which he saw literally turned into "dark satanic mills" when he returned to it. I in my lifetime have seen ecosystems trashed, just in the space of a few years of my childhood.

Sigh. It's mostly down to overpopulation isn't it?

Looks like the decision is being made for me, but it looks like I'll be Poweringdown quite a bit. First looking for an old Volvo 240 wagon or old Toyota van and the Prius gets sold - there goes a lot of debt. Also to look into renting either a storage space or a small "R&D" office, that means the kind you can run a drill press in. Will cost less than 1/2 times what this apartment will. Officially at least, I'll sleep in the car/van. Got a LOT of stuff to just plain sell, just plain get rid of. No more on-line sales, no more feeding that vampire. The most "industrial" I'll be is taking stuff to the swapmeets locally and selling it. You know, bag up useful stuff like ring lugs and mic connectors, etc and sell for $1 each. What I really want to do is work on artist skills, paper 'n' Conte crayon, technology hundreds of years old or really, thousands. Ultimate desired end result would be I guess, to do without a car entirely and live in a cheep place and just draw, caricatures and cartoons for magazines and stuff like that, the odd sign. And have expenses down far enough so I can live OK that way, or go wash windows and live OK also. But one thing at a time. This isn't even my choice, Ebay/net/computer/credit cards etc are going through their own Tainterish collapse for me right now, and I may only be 6 mos. ahead, a vanguard of large numbers of Tainterish collapses for a lot of people.

So yeah, I'm thinking Tolkian is right on the button right now.

Art is an excellent skill.  Low overhead and timeless demand.  Art might be more appreciated after the oil age.  IMO, probably classical Greece spent a far  higher % of GDP on art than any fossil fueled society.  My sister paid a guy outside a mall to do a portrait of her dog, lots of opportunities out there.    
Yes. Probably why it's so suppressed.

There's no real "journeyman" training in art in the US, it's the plaything of the rich and distrusted by most nose-to-the-grindstone Americans. I was destined to become an artist, but my family crashed from middle class to welfare-class and art was just not trusted.

But no one ever got tired of looking at their own ugly mug!

If you've been around a bit, even the most bone-headed person can see that the present work-til-you-drop way of life is a scam. Most Americans are dropping dead before they ever collect Social Security, it's the top quintile, maybe the top two, living to collect. And everything else in the slush fund goes for .... I dunno, black helicopters or something.

It's looking good, get an old volvo and a shop, and stop spending so damned much money to make a little money. Instead, spend next to no money to make a little money.

If I keep going the way I've been, I'm going to have a heart attack and I'll have to gear way down anyway.

Well, more than the U.S., that is for certain. I remember reading/learning that in Golden Age Athens, a rich citizen was expected to either finance a play or a warship. To a major extent, this explains the incredible output of drama from a tiny city state more or less in the middle of nowhere.

The value a society places on something is neither an economic or a technological decision - it is a human one.

Yes, everyone should really read Tolkien, starting with The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, four thick paperbacks.  Its a long read, but the only complaint on the part of most of my friends, is that the book is too short!

The first of the four, The Hobbit comes across more as a kid's story, and indeed, Tolkien wrote it for his kids in 1936, but it reads well for adults and provides a good prequel, making it easier to get into the main story of The Lord of the Rings.

Tolkien himself apparently always insisted that his sole purpose was to tell a rattling good yarn, and he specifically disavowed any perceived parables or metaphors that anyone might read into the tale.  I don't think many believe this, and considering the time it was written, which included the World War II era, (the tale was reworked and evolved even as it was being written; the whole thing took about 20 years following the publication of The Hobbit) it's easy to identify Sauron with Hitler, etc.  And in that light, the book's stark rendering of good vs evil makes sense.  For in World War II, there was no question as to where the evil lay.  And it was evil, beyond the usual depredations of various despots past and present.

Antoinetta III

It takes more than just a monarch.  It requires that the hereditary system be applied to all aspects of society.  This destroys the real estate industry because you can't sell your land, you have no choice but to stay in place and eventually your kids will inherit your property.  This immediately creates an overwhelming incentive to limit your exploitation of it to a sustainable degree.

Actually, the Green Party is not in favour of anything like Tolkien's vision.  While they no doubt like the sustainable part of the vision, they also want to keep our current electoral "democratic" type of politics. In fact, they complain that it is not democratic enough.  Unfortunately, democracy is very "me" oriented, and leads to short-term thinking, and therefore the pressure to clear-cut or otherwise trash the property for a quick profit come to the fore.  Democracy and sustainability are inherently incompatable and can only co-exist until the unsustainability eventually causes the democratic political and economic system to collapse.  The question then is, of course, will the planet be so badly trashed at this point that will we have the ability to rebuild any sort of decent existance even when a sustainable, hereditary system returns after the house of cards of our current democratic system has collapsed.

Antoinetta III

Very interesting discussion here about Tolkien, the Greens, and our society as cancer!
I think you have to argue much more strongly that democracy isn't compatible with sustainability. The fact that interest bearing currencies lead to short term thinking and competitiveness is well documented, and Stuart did a good job of distilling it into a TOD post. The fact that democracy leads to short term thinking hasn't really been shown at all, and I won't believe it until it is.
Democracy causes short-term thinking because everything about the system is itself short-term, and it is ultimately all about "winning."  Election cycles are generally four years, unless you are a member of the House of Representatives, where it is only two years. Several members of the House have complained that due to their short terms, the first thing they have to do upon getting elected is not attending to the business of governance, but to immediately set up a re-election campaign committee, to prepare for the next election.  To get elected, or re-elected requires, in addition to brown-nosing up to the campaign contributors, pandering, promising the electorate in one way or another "more."  Whether its more cheap goodies or gasoline or more developments that will grow more economy or create more convenience or whatever, you do not get elected by promising lean times and calling on the electorate to tighten their belts.  The only way for "more" to keep happening is, of course to have a perpetually "growing" economy, something that, due to the finite nature of resources on Earth becomes at some point unsustainable, at which time the whole thing collapses.  But if such an end is not anticipated within a decade or so, its not going to interfere with any current politician's immediate need to get elected.  Our failure to seriously attempt to address energy shortages at the time of what should have been our wake-up call, the 1973 Arab oil embargo is a case in point.  And due to the fact that a lot of the negative results of particular policies may take a few years to become evident, as far as incumbents are concerned, bad policies now might not be all that bad if it means that it is the other political party that will be in office at that time and be, in essence, left holding the bag, being blamed for what was started before their term, and that they will be also held responsible for dealing with whatever mess has been created by their predecessors.

It's like Goritsas said in a post further downthread, hereditary institutions have a vested interest in long-term sustainability, and others don't.  A monarch will be inclined to think twice over some scheme that will have a short-term positive aspect but also negatives that might not be obvious until a generation into the future.  The monarch knows that s/he, or her/his immediate descendants will have to deal with whatever problems crop up after a decade or more, the elected politicians, who generally morph into the puppets of those with the organization and resources that "game" our system operate under no such constraint.  Likewise, a farmer is going to try to avoid overworking/depleting his land, if he knows his kids are going to need it in productive shape if they are to eat.  So its not only a monarchy per se that's required for long-term thinking, but a hereditary principle in society generally.  If a real estate industry exists, anyone who sells their property has no concern about the viability or health of that property once its sold and the money is in the seller's pocket.

Antoinetta III

A-III,

Good insightful analysis. Thank you.

To summarize: there are different kinds of "valuations" in a "Democracy" / "Capitalist Market" system:

  1. Short term return on invenstment (ROI) to current incumbents / renters of the office / property, and
  2. Long term costs to all future holders/renters of the office or property.

The short-termers ignore or "externalize" the long term cost items (#2) because they will have skiddadled and will be distanced or disassaciated from the long term costs when finally TSHF. Therfore the short-termers "account" only for the short term factors.

What this says is that in 1973, Peak Oil was a long-term problem which the short-termers (politicians) could conveniently ignore. As the time to impact shortens, it becomes more and more difficult for the system to remain in denial. But then again, we are a resourceful species. We will come up with ever more clever ways to deny. In that I have faith. Uggh.

That's a pretty good analysis but you're using the word "democracy" to mean the exact system we use today (or rather, America uses today).

Democracy doesn't imply 2 party politics, 4 year terms or time limits on what leaders can do, and I think you could argue that the American constitution actually has too many checks and balances in that vein. For instance England has no time limit on how long leaders can remain for and yet it's also a stable democracy. In fact you can have democracy with no political parties at all!

I'm also sceptical of "the masses" being stupid and short sighted. Maybe people vote for short-term-ism because that's the only thing they're being offered. You say "nobody votes for leaner times" but that's a self fulfilling prophecy: nobody can vote for it if no party is offering it.

At the last election I wanted to vote green, but couldn't because there was no candidate in my area. So I ended up voting Lib Dem, a party with no really notable policies :(

MH,

A number of points in your posting:

 1. sceptical of "the masses" being stupid.
  1. sceptical of "the masses" being ... short sighted
  2. Democracy doesn't imply 2 party politics

  • As to #1, absolutely on target. You and I are no smarter than "them". We are "them". 5 fingers on each hand and 2 eyeballs. We are people creatures just like them and them like us.

  • For #2, it all depends on what your definition of "short" is is.

  • Re #3, TOD has hosted a number threads on why the "winner takes all" election system forces a 2 party menu
  • To clarify, when I use the term "democracy" I am referring to any system in which the rulers/leaders are elected as opposed to attaining their positions in any other way.

    Elected government, unfortunately, involves a rather complex and expensive process.  It responds, not to the real overall "will of the people", but to those best constituted to pressure it.  This essentially requires two things, organizational capacity and money, the latter mostly to finance the hugely expensive campaigns for the various offices.  And who already has a huge head-start with this?  Well, those who are already organized, even if influencing the government was not their original purpose, and those who already have access to large amounts of cash.  These are corporations, of course, who find it relatively easy to divert a bit of their attention away from whatever they are selling and making money on and to lobbying the government on their behalf.  Their ability to provide the funding (or to deny it) to politicians for the spin doctors and sloganeers campaigning requires directly influences what positions and policies both candidates and incumbents will adopt.  The only non-corporate interest groups tend to be those of the one-issue fanatics, the partizans on either side of the abortion, death penalty, affirmative action, etc. debates, issues which have been going on all or most of my life (I'm 54) and which our democracy seems unable to resolve, as the losers at any one turn simply retreat, re-organize, and keep pushing the issue.

    Ultimately, the complexity of democratic systems means that these above lobbyists etc, learn how to "game" the system to get what they want.  The vast majority of people do not follow politics in any kind of depth as their lives focus almost exclusively on the minutiae of daily life; get up in the morning, get something to eat, get the kids off to school, get to work, then come home and eat dinner, while somewhat listening to the crap on Fox News.  Since only about half the people even bother to vote, and the vast majority of those who do, do so based on gut "feelings" derived from the newspaper headlines and TV news, "gaming" the system is not all that hard to do; marketeers and admen have long ago made a science of it.  Political campaigns have devolved essentially into duels between competing groups of the above marketeers and admen, devoid of real substance, focussing instead on the emotional hot-button issue stuff which will become increasingly irrelevant as the world gets to the top of Hubbert's Peak and continues the trip down the other side.  And, I suspect, a political platform offering a long range viewpoint, and "lean times" isn't on the ballot because pretty much anyone out to get elected considers this a big loser.

    Its not that people are stupid (I never said this) but their focus and attention is elsewhere.  Those of us who participate on The Oil Drum aren't necessarily "smarter" than anyone else, but, in our own way, we are part of an "elite."  Just the fact that we are here indicates that we are "plugged in" to what's going on in the political world far more than the general populace.  And I doubt the total number of participants on all the political web-logs combined come to more than two or three percent of the electorate; out votes are overwhelmed by those of the masses not so politically aware.

    Antoinetta III        Posted on The Oil Drum on 7-2-2006

    What's the real nonsense here: swords and sorcery, or a perfect heriditary governmental system lead by an enlightened dictator.  I don't think you should draw distinctions here, because they are both equally ludicrous (which doesn't mean it makes a bad story, but this is a fantasy novel we're talking about).  

    I think it should be noted that just because someone writes something in a story, that doesn't mean they necessarily believe it would work in the real world.  So, we have no idea what Tolkein really thought was the ideal government for the real world (unless he wrote it down somewhere outside his books).    

    But the idea of a perfect heriditary power structure with enlightened rulers simply doesn't work in the real world.  If it did, we'd have achieved it long ago, but the fact is, on the whole, monarchies tended to be quite less than idea.

    I would say that Tolkein's depiction of the elven society might be considered an idealistic fantasy: what might be possible in a perfect situation, with a benevolent ruler, and where everyone in society was of like mind about everything.  That doesn't mean it's a true blue print for the real world.  Incidentally, consider that if everyone in society is really of like mind, the form of government becomes irrelevant.  A democracy could work as well as an enlightened despot in that situatio