Why EROI Matters (Part 1 of 6)
Posted by Nate Hagens on April 1, 2008 - 11:04am
Topic: Supply/Production
Tags: Charles Hall, eroei, eroi [list all tags]
This is the first of a six part series of guest posts by Professor Charles Hall of the SUNY College of Environmental Science and Forestry and his students and collaborative researchers. Professor Hall previously posted on TOD, "At $100 Oil, What Can the Scientist Say to the Investor?"Professor Hall has endeavored to update and improve the state of net energy analysis as he believes (as do I), that future energy policy decisions should at least be guided, if not directly steered using biophysical principles. The opinions on the importance of net energy analysis as a tool for addressing our looming energy crisis are quite disparate, but without some science grounded in physical principles, we are left to rely on the market. The unfolding international credit crisis highlights the dangers of relying on strictly fiat monetary measures for biophysical planning – credit and debt can be created with no underlying physical foundation.
This first post is composed of 2 pieces. First is an introduction and an explanation by Dr Hall why EROI analysis is important. The second part lays out a request to theoildrum.com readership for helping contribute to this net energy data effort. This post will be followed every Tuesday in April with Dr. Halls students preliminary analysis on four energy sectors: 1)conventional fossil fuels, 2) Nuclear fuels 3) solar fuels and 4)geologic sources. Please try and help Dr. Hall with this meta-analysis with suggestions, criticism, and sourced comments. This first post has no data, so there will be an opportunity for readers to discuss any theoretical issues regarding EROI and net energy analysis before starting into the actual numbers next week.
Why EROI matters
By Charles Hall
State University of New York
College of Environmental Science and Forestry
Syracuse New York
Making investment decisions
Society usually makes its economic decisions, at least those not predicated by personal greed at the expense of others or strictly political considerations, on economic analysis and most explicitly via either non government market decisions or governmentally-administered cost-benefit analysis. Probably most decisions are made by people in the financial markets who seek to gain the best economic return on their economic investment. Probably most of these people believe that their own best judgments, while of course subject to the vagaries of the market, are the best way that we can prepare for the future. There is an implicit assumption, probably believed by most market analysts, that if they (collectively) make good financial decisions, based on market information, market projections and good hunches, then we collectively (i.e. society) will make the best investments possible. Although there are certainly good rationales that such analyses make considerable sense, in many cases it is not so clear to me that they are an effective guide to the future of energy supplies. This is because 1) few understand the degree to which most technologies today are principally a means of subsidizing whatever it is we do with still-cheap petroleum 2) today’s price signals are unlikely to be especially influenced by future conditions when today’s most abundant and cheapest fuels are likely to be much less available, for either geological (depletion) or political reasons 3) current prices of energy in the U.S. are greatly influenced by various subsidies 4) there is painfully little transfer of information from the (rather limited) scientific community that has examined the large picture of energy to the financial communities. We propose to improve the information flow on these issues from the scientific community to the general financial community as well as to the policy world more generally.
Why peak oil matters
Our society is overwhelmingly dependent upon oil, which supplied about 40 percent of US energy use in 2007, and natural gas, which supplied another 25 or so percent. Global values are similar. It has also been dependent upon their growth in supply to support additional economic growth, even with some efficiency improvements. As of this writing there is considerable concern about whether “peak oil” (meaning the point for a region, a nation or the world at which oil production no longer increases year by year but enters a plateau or decline) has occurred for the world or might soon. If this is true then the “end of cheap oil” might be, or might soon be, upon us. Natural gas might not be too far behind, especially in North America. Because of the critical importance of this petroleum for essentially everything we do economically there are major concerns as to what the financial implications might be. A thoughtful although possibly extreme view of the implications of peak oil on the American Economy has been presented by Gail Tverberg at: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3382#more . An assumption of some who examine this issue is that since all that we do economically in the US is based on cheap oil and gas then the absence of that cheap oil and gas will have enormous economic implications. Do conventional economics and conventional economic models and tools work only when it was possible to readily expand the petroleum supply? There is a strong view held by myself and others (see references at end) that because our main economic concepts were derived during a period of our expanding ability to do everything – i.e. that more or less regardless of policy we were able to pump more oil out of the ground readily to implement whatever we were trying to do, that conventional economic approaches may have much less relevance during times of contracting supplies. In other words, are finances beholden to the laws of physics? I think yes. Thus the question becomes: can we supplement or improve upon our ability to do economics and financial analysis by using procedures that focus more on the energy available (or not) to undertake the activity in question? I next attempt to make that case.
Predicting energy supplies and the importance of EROI
There are many, notably those associated with TheOilDrum and the Association for the Study of Peak Oil (ASPO), who believe that they can predict the amount of oil and gas that will be available in the future. This can be readily gleaned from their web sites. The news is not good, especially over the next few decades. Other, different views are available of course, both from the US Energy Information Agency and Cambridge Energy Research Associates, but even their probably inflated estimates would only extend the time until peak, not cause it to disappear. In addition their predictions seem to have lost a lot of credibility due to the recent analysis of Morton, who showed that all of their price predictions in the past 8 years have failed miserably.
Most economists are not too concerned about peak oil (if they think about it at all) because they believe that markets will generate substitutes from which markets will choose. But today’s markets often give very misleading signals about the potential of various fuels. The boom and bust of ethanol is an obvious example. I have been working on this issue for 40 years and have no idea what might be an adequate qualitative and quantitative substitute for petroleum except possibly and with enormous difficulty something based on electricity.
One potentially useful alternative or supplement to conventional economic analysis is net energy analysis, which is the analysis of how much energy is required to make a unit of the energy in question. Net energy is sometimes called energy surplus, energy balance, or, as I prefer, energy return on investment (EROI) (Hall 1972, Hall and Cleveland 1981, Cleveland et al.1985, Hall, Cleveland and Kaufmann 1986). Its advocates, including me, believe that net energy analysis offers the possibility of a very useful approach for looking at the advantages and disadvantages of a given fuel and offers the possibility of looking into the future in a way that markets seem unable to do. Its advocates also believe that in time real market prices must approximately reflect comprehensive EROIs, at least if corrections for quality are made and subsidies removed. Thus can we make market decisions based on biophysical, rather than market, economic analysis? At a minimum I believe that biophysical analysis can add a great deal of insight to traditional market analysis.
The current literature on net energy analysis, such as it is, tends to be mostly about whether a given project is or is not a net surplus, that is whether there is a gain or a loss in energy from e.g. making ethanol from corn (see June 23, 2006 issue of Science Magazine for a fairly thorough discussion of this issue). The general criteria used by much of the current debate is focused on the “energy break even” issue, that is whether the energy returned as fuel is greater than the energy invested in growing or otherwise obtaining it. If so then the general argument seems to be that the fuel or project “should be done”, and if not then it should not. Obviously this issue is clearest when one might be discussing whether the fuel requires more energy for its production than is delivered in the product, a claim held by several of the participants (most notably Pimentel and Patzek 2005 discussed in the above issue of Science) in the current debate about corn-derived ethanol. Others (summarized in e.g. Farrell et al., 2006) argue that ethanol from corn has a clear energy surplus, with from 1.2 to 1.6 units of energy delivered for each unit invested. Further aspects of this argument center around whether one should include co-products (such as residual animal feed), the quality of the fuels used and produced (liquid – presumably more valuable -- vs. solid and gaseous, for example) and whether or not to consider the energy required to compensate for environmental impacts in the future e.g. for the significant soil erosion occasioned by corn production. Such arguments are likely to be much more important in the future as other relatively low quality fuels are increasingly considered or developed to replace oil and gas, both of which are likely to be more expensive and probably less available in the not so distant future. If, of course, the alternatives require much oil and or gas for their production, which is usually the case, then an increase in the price of petroleum will not necessarily make the alternatives cheap and more available as a fuel. And, as we have seen, the use of biomass fuels an have enormous and generally adverse ripple effects though the world’s food and environmental systems that were completely unpredicted by narrow market analysis.
Why EROI matters—what information can it give about the future
I believe that EROI can give the investor or the publics a great deal of information that markets cannot. These are summarized below:
1) Markets can give you information only about the cost of exploiting a fuel, which usually today has nothing to do with making or even necessarily finding it in the future. Case in point is petroleum: today globally we find only one barrel for each 4 or 5 that we extract, so that we are basically pumping out known reservoirs. Hence we are not paying, assuming that we could, the cost of finding the replacement or of making some substitute. We are just emptying our tanks. Time trends and predictions of EROI can give you a much better insight into what the costs relative to the gains are likely to be in the future.
2) Nevertheless energy investments on the whole probably cannot fail to give the investor a profit. If costs go up, so will prices. If depletion of high quality fuels occurs whatever energy is left is likely to be worth more. Society as it has existed for 100 years simply cannot operate without energy, probably more or less as much as it can get. But while the investor might be satisfied the general economy will suffer, and indeed that is beginning to happen. I believe that even the sub-prime mess is about increasing oil prices increasingly removing once-discretionary income that had allowed the speculation.
3) Essentially all information that we have indicates that the EROI for our major fuels (solar may be an exception) are declining over time, so that in the future society will be having to invest much more money and energy into getting the necessary fuel to run the economy than we do now (e.g. Hall et al. in press). Thus we can tell investors that this is not a good time to invest in additional Caribbean hotels, new restaurants and so on. Both society and individual people will be spending far more of their income on just getting the energy to make the economy work, , resulting in a serious diminution of discretionary income and everything dependent upon it (e.g. Hall et al. in press, http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3412 )
4) EROI can be used to help evaluate which alternative fuels are likely to be the most viable economically in the future (See the “balloon” graph in the above post)). Those investors who had used EROI information to guide investments in the last few years avoided being burned in the corn-based ethanol boom and bust. Similarly, science can tell you now that we have not yet broken down cellulose on a commercial scale, and that to maintain the conditions where this has been done in the laboratory on a large scale is extremely difficult. So much for the present-day advocates of switchgrass and other cellulosic alcohol. Maybe we can do it, but should we bet the house on a maybe?
5) EROI can be combined with estimates of the total magnitude of resources to indicate which fuels are likely to be able to make significant additions to US energy resources. For example, rapeseed is an attractive potential for biodiesel but the entire area in which rapeseed can be grown with a significant net energy gain probably is not enough to make a substantial contribution to the US liquid fuels budget.
6) Environmental issues can be included in EROI analyses, allowing a more comprehensive analysis of EROI. For example if growing a biofuel causes soil erosion the energy cost of making fertilizer to restore the fertilizer can be readily factored in.
Thus there are many reasons that good energy and EROI analysis can help guide the policymakers, investors and interested members of the public.
Part II
REQUEST FOR HELP TO READERS OF THE OIL DRUM
I have been involved in attempting to examine the relation of energy costs and gains of various living creatures (e.g. migrating fish, trees growing at different places on a mountain) and of energy used by humans (e.g. petroleum, coal, nuclear, biomass) for most of my professional career, that is since 1968. Various publications on this issue are available at my website (http://www.esf.edu/efb/faculty/hall.htm). It is my opinion that such energy return on investment (EROI) analyses are critical for how we understand our future energy possibilities and also about how we should make investment decisions about energy now. For example, from the perspective of society (but not necessarily the individual investor) it might appear to make a lot of sense to invest in oil at the present time, when substantial amounts of oil might be forthcoming and prices are good, but if in fact what we are doing is simply accelerating the depletion of existing reserves, rather than finding new reserves, then the net effect is simply robbing tomorrow’s Paul to pay for today’s Peter. i.e. accelerating the negative effects of oil depletion at some future time. What we really need to do is to decide what might be optimum investments based on (for our purposes) the EROI for the present and as projected to the future.
EROI is of course not by itself a sufficient criterion to make decisions about which energy resources should or should not be developed, encouraged, subsidized or whatever, but it is an important criterion. Obviously if an energy resource requires more fuel, or nearly the same amount of fuel of a higher quality, to create as is gained from its development then that is probably by itself sufficient reason to recommend against its production. In addition, other things being equal, it makes sense to develop that fuel which has the highest EROI. Of course it is rare that other things are equal. The most important additional criteria is the potential magnitude of the resource. In the United States, for example, really high quality geothermal sites (such as the Geysers in California) are rare, although low quality sites, with much lower or essentially negative EROIs, are abundant. The second most important additional issue is probably environmental issues, and our analyses attempt to assess each of these. Other issues that might also need to be addressed include: availability of, and impact upon, labor, land requirements, financial issues and so on.

“Balloon graph” representing quality (y graph) and quantity (x graph) of the United States economy for various fuels at various times. Arrows connect fuels from various times (i.e. domestic oil in 1930, 1970, 2005), and the size of the “balloon” represents part of the uncertainty associated with EROI estimates.
(Source: US EIA, Cutler Cleveland and C. Hall’s own EROI work in preparation)Click to Enlarge.
The results of our long term and recent analyses have been published recently on TOD (http://www.theoildrum.com/node/3412) as “The balloon graph”, a graph indicating the quantity (amount used in the U.S. per year for various years) and quality (EROI) of the main and possible fuels used in the U.S. What we want to do next is to utilize the considerable experience of the readers of the oil drum to criticize and, especially, expand upon our recent efforts to summarize what is known about the EROI, potential magnitude and environmental impact of various fuels. If you are interested I have prepared a preliminary summary of what we were able to summarize about existing studies of these issues for many different fuels. This summary was prepared by a month long study of about a dozen Graduate and undergraduate students at my College (The College of Environmental Science and Forestry of The State University of New York –i.e. SUNY ESF) in May and June of 2007. While I felt that the study was fairly exhaustive our preliminary results have been criticized in various ways, especially from the perspective that “There must be more studies than you have found”. I agree, and seek your help in this endeavor. So we will present in TOD our summary in four sections in four successive postings of TOD and we seek your input. The rules of engagement are simple: if you know of additional studies that would reinforce or refute (or anything else) our basic analyses then post them to TOD. We seek especially objective results that are published in peer reviewed journals (the normal gold standard of science) and we seek to avoid self aggrandizing reports by interested parties –i.e. someone with something to sell -- or the opposite. We are also seeking actual measured analyses vs. hypothetical assessments of where the technology might be headed. We also would welcome the responder’s opinion of the piece put forth.
We are also attempting to develop at this time, independently, a more explicit protocol for deriving EROI and associated criteria. We recognize that a lot of the difference amongst different estimates for the same fuels at this time are definitional and especially relate to the boundaries used, an issue that we are attempting to deal with independently. An example of the confusion we face relates to the messages that came in to the earlier posting on TOD of our “balloon graph” where as one responder (mkwin) states that there was a new study indicating that the EROI of the Forsmark nuclear power in Europe was some 93 returned for one invested. But the next responder (Chris) stated that since the enriched fuel had been provided by France, where some 3 of 21 or so nuclear plants were required to enrich the fuel used by the 21 plants then the maximum EROI would be about 7 to 1, something, more in line with our own earlier conclusions. Or is it? So we will see how this goes, filter the responses and try to get a more substantive basis for our various EROI estimates from the results. So if you are interested in this issue read on.
The four sections that will be posted are: 1) conventional fossil fuels 2) Nuclear fuels 3) geological sources and 4) biomass fuels.
Literature
Campbell, C. and J. Laherrere.1998. The end of cheap oil. Scientific American (March): 78-83.
Cleveland, C. J. 2005. Net Energy from the Extraction of Oil and Gas in the United States. Energy: The International Journal 30(5): 769-782.
Cleveland C.J., Costanza, R., Hall C.A.S. & Kaufmann R.K. 1984. Energy and the US economy: A biophysical perspective. Science 225: 890 897.
Hall, C.A.S. 1972. Migration and metabolism in a temperate stream ecosystem. Ecology 53: 585-604.
Hall, C.A.S. and C.J. Cleveland. 1981. Petroleum drilling and production in the United States: Yield per effort and net energy analysis. Science 211: 576-579.
Hall C.A.S., Cleveland C.J., & Kaufmann R.K. 1986. Energy and Resource Quality: The Ecology of the Economic Process. New York: Wiley Interscience. (Reprinted 1992. Boulder: University Press of Colorado.)
Hall C.A.S. 1992. Economic development or developing economics? Pages 101 126 in Wali M, ed. Ecosystem Rehabilitation in Theory and Practice, Vol I. Policy Issues. The Hague, Netherlands: SPB Publishing.
Hall C.A.S. ed. 2000. Quantifying Sustainable Development: The Future of Tropical Economies. San Diego: Academic Press.
Hall, C.A.S. and J.Y. Ko. (2006). The myth of efficiency through market economics: A biophysical analysis of tropical economies, especially with respect to energy, forests and water. In LeClerc, G. and C. A. S. Hall. Making world development work: Scientific alternatives to neoclassical economic theory. University of New Mexico Press, Albuquerque
Hall, C.A.S., R. Powers and W. Schoenberg. (in press). Peak oil, EROI, investments and the economy in an uncertain future. Pp. xxx-xxx in Pimentel,
David. (ed). Renewable Energy Systems: Environmental and Energetic Issues
**Acknowledgements: I thank the Santa Barbara Family Foundation, the Interfaith Center on Corporate Responsibility, The Tamarind Foundation, Boston Common Asset Management, and ASPO USA for financial support for this research.



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The latest centrifuge for enriching uranium is 20 times more efficient as previous models
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/extreme_machines/4257042.html?se...
Hum... The previous model was gaseous diffusion.
http://www.usec.com/Downloads/AmericanCentrifuge/KNS_02172008_SpinMaster...
Usually centifuges are expected to use 40 times less energy than diffusion and Paducah is kind of old so, aside from increased volume, this sounds like a step backwards. Time to ditch those shares maybe?
Chris
I do wonder. The generally proposed solution to all these problems here on TOD is to switchover the whole economy to zero EROI. See all the links to "limits to growth" etc.
So I wonder how one can think about this
1) clearly, we should not complain about "low" EROI if our solution involves (maximum) zero EROI or even negative EROI. Zero or negative EROI is obviously not a solution for "low or negative EROI" problems (ie. peak oil).
2) using as an assumption that there aren't any (reasonable) limits to growth (or at least none that will prevent the human race from advancing) *ever*
Personally I think I like option 2.
Huh?
No growth does not equal zero EROI. The latter would mean death. Even a 1:1 EROI (no net gain) would not support a steady-state economy. On the other hand, no finite energy source, even with 100:1 EROI, can support endless growth.
I see it here all the time: some people cannot disconnect the concepts of exponential growth and merely being alive. All biological organisms use energy, and thus require energy sources with EROI>1, and they all grow for a while as young individuals, and their populations fluctuate, but they all have zero long-term growth in any given finite environment. Like it or not, the planet it finite and our "economy" is a subsidiary of "the environment".
Maybe a helpful concept here is entropy. (Or maybe not...) basically, to maintain our current state of order, we need a net energy input, so EROI has to be greater than 1. Same goes for any biological system. Many people also seem to forget that that net energy input that allows us to exist and defy the second law of thermodynamics comes from one place only: the sun.
You're correct, except that we don't "defy" the 2nd Law. We extract free energy from sunlight down its gradient thru glucose to CO2, H2O & heat, according to the 2nd Law. All these proponents of EROEI analysis seem bound & determined to ignore the sun. Thank you for reminding them where the energy comes from.
for all practical purposes that lead to real or perceived darwinian fitness, energy comes from the ground (in concentrated ancient sunlight form), the biomass (somewhat concentrated old sunlight) and of course current sunlight. Under the Maximum Power Principle as evolved organisms we will grab as much power as we can (collectively). If the current sunlight isn't enough - no problem use the concentrated stuff. On human time scales, that stuff is all FREE (after subtracting energy and resources costs to get it)
Circa 1973 there were several articles in the business and scientific press on the hydrogen economy. One was in Scientific American titled The Hydrogen Economy. I believe that it was the January issue. If memory serves a major theme was that hydrogen could be produced using nuclear or solar energy and used for transportation. There were of course major problems which were discussed. I was more interested in a minor theme, the epithermal concentration of minerals. As I recall it was postulated that the earth was heated primarily by gravitational collapse with an additional input from radioactive sources. As the earth cooled minerals were concentrated by epithermal deposition as they precipitated under various degrees of heat and pressure. The resulting concentration of copper, silver etc. was essentially an enormous gift of low entropy. How does one account for this gift?
This debate that keeps coming up on the earth as a closed vs open system as it relates to net energy has its merits. We're certainly not going to be importing fuel from Mars, but the sun exports massive amounts of free energy to us every day, nearly all of which we waste. If we had electrical lines running from umpteen billion acres of solar panels running all our drilling rigs and electric cars, net energy would be a moot point. A similar argument is made by Huber and Mills in their thought provoking book "The Bottomless Well: The Twilight Of Fuel, The Virtue of Waste, And Why We Will Never Run Out Of Energy". Here they point out that energy does not get used up - it merely changes forms. We just need to get more chemically clever about capturing energy as it changes forms. This cleverness ultimately would be limited only by the 2nd Law of the earth's closed system, and not even by that if you consider the sun.
But it's also true that for all practical purposes, energy comes from the ground. We don't have umpteen billion acres of solar or the chemical cleverness Huber and Mills envision and won't anytime soon. But we certainly will be running up against all the net energy problems very soon.
Thomas Edison seemed to have a handle on all this way back in 1931. He said in a conversation with Henry Ford on the rush into oil:
My own impression is that the Solar Source of Earth's energy is mentioned with extreme frequency. Where have you been keeping yourself?
Nate, thanks for initiating this. Very important work. And as Alan might say, best hopes that this will help folks recognize that there are very real limits to growth and that we are bumping up against them. Perhaps you would post your very fine graph showing the net energy curve, and Euan's version of the net energy cliff as visual aids.
Thank you Charles for sharing your work.
I have a suggestion for your balloon graph to make it more understandable to a person not quite familiar with all the concepts and assertions. Create an "interactive" version in which the text either:
1) hyperlinks to additional pages that explain what each bubble represents (like for "Coal" it could tell if it is just US or worldwide data, tell if it it includes things like transportation and conversion to electricity, and perhaps include graphs showing how EROI has trended over time
or
2) pops up "mouseover" text that gives a very short summary of what the bubble represents
Personally I like #1, especially since you already allude to some changes in EROI over time and the auxiliary pages would be a good place to show that for all the energy bubbles.
The bubble graph is a powerful tool. Anything you can do to make it more easily understandable and user-friendly will go along way towards helping people get the message you are trying to communicate.
Greg in MO
I appreciate all of the research you have been doing in this area!
One question that bothers me is the vastly different price per Btu that different fossil fuels command. This is a graph, based on data from the 2008 Annual Energy Outlook (Early Release) of a history of prices, in 2006 dollars.
To maintain these differentials, it seems like we need to have very high EROI for coal and natural gas, relative to oil. Otherwise, the energy used for these sources must come from like sources (coal from coal, natural gas from natural gas).
I think that the fact that we are past "trough fossil fuel energy price" in 2006 dollars is important also. This would seem to say that the growing efficiencies of producing the fossil fuels have been cancelled out by other factors, like lower EROI. Electricity follows a similar pattern, with a smaller dip, since it is more a function of coal and nuclear.
These things are probably outside of what you plan to discuss, but if you have any insights, I would be interested in hearing them.
Perhaps the price discrepency can be summed up by the words 'immediate utility' and 'demand'.
If we started to turn coal into Petroleum I would expect the yellow line to rise up just as we have seen the price of corn rise...
Nick.
The combination of that price per BTU chart and the EROI bubble map above shows how desirable coal is as a major problem solver in peak oil. The coal circle stands apart from the other circles as a solution. It's really tragic that coal suffers the greenhouse problem so much more than the other solutions and points out the urgency of clean coal technology development.
If you look at how to guage the effect of declining EROI over the history of global oil production, you can get a sort of "EROI adjusted" Hubbert's peak. It does make a difference from the first half of production to the second half. And then we are adding all the oil substitutes, so many of which are of worthless or minimal net energy levels. If you lump them into the declining EROI for conventional oil, you get a diagram I posted here about a week ago. Many of the things we are putting into that zone between conventional oil and total liquids are contributing to the net energy curve, but far too many of them aren't pushing the curve out much at all.
Considering the net energy cliff implications we are coming up against in a few short years, it's imperative that we get this oil/EROI thing figured out soon.
As a first question, Gail, is the price of coal/btu shown here, the price of thermal coal delivered to the electrical generating plant, or the price of coal delivered to my yard from where I can haul it and dump it down a chute, from where to refill my furnace I can shovel it every few hours once I've gotten the fire going?
I wonder if the price per btu of natural gas includes the effort of programming my thermostat and arranging for pre-approved payments at my bank?
I'm afraid it is whatever EIA says it is. I haven't investigated the details. Given the low cost for coal, I would think that the costs are before delivery costs are added. Delivery costs would be high for coal, because it needs to be transported by rail / barge / truck. This may explain some of the difference between it and the other fossil fuels.
I looked at Jon Friese's graph down thread. The NG prices from the EIA are definitely the wellhead prices. If, as Jon says, delivery costs approximately double the NG cost, that may explain a big piece of the difference. It would be much better to use data including delivery costs. Delivery costs would also add something to oil, but not as much.
Not to mention that, with respect to transportation, the coal is not useful until it is converted into electricity or liquid and then actually inserted in the gas tank or used to recharge the batteries. The true cost of coal is a function of the ultimate use and the price per btu as an end product is much higher than the raw cost of coal, say, delivered to a coal fired electric plant.
I would've thot that Black Mesa coal I see people selling by the sack or pickup load along the roadsides around here would be pretty useful in the stove. Guess I'll just stick with wood, then...
if it takes 5 btus of coal or natgas or nuclear to make one BTU of transportation fuel on a wholesale basis, the wholesale price of each should be the basis of comparison. the cost of a barrel of crude from tar sands is the same as th cost of a barrel of oil from the north sea. the eroi of the latter might be very high vs. the former, while the absolute returns of the former are much higher due to cost inputs.
the price per BTU at the point where one energy is converted to another the only relevant price. so we should consider the price to suncor of natgas and coal delivered to their tar sands projects in ft. mcmurry -- low EROI but very strong ROI.
seems to me EROI analysis is ignoring the utility function expressed int he wholesale BTU price.
These price differences underline the issue of "energy quality" which must be addressed to get EROI straight. Per-BTU is not the most useful measure. E.g., electricity is certainly of higher quality than coal. But sometimes quality seems unclear, or not possible to delineate on one axis. E.g., how would you compare electricity and oil? Given the use of oil for transportation, and the _current_ unsuitability of electricity for the same purpose, is oil of "higher quality"?
One important detail in the above price chart: the pause in the price rise of NG in the last couple of years. Especially given the peaking of NG in North America. (And I assume that chart depicts prices in the USA.) I believe that that dip in NG price is a result of the shutting down of fertilizer and plastics factories in response to the preceding rise of NG prices - these industries have moved to places with still-abundant NG, such as Trinidad or Qatar. The resulting "glut" of NG supply in the USA (relative to demand) is temporary: as demand from other uses grows and catches up with declining supply, expect the price curves of NG and oil to again correlate. One indication that NG prices are artificially low right now is the fact that in parts of the US it is now cheaper to heat with electricity (using plain resistive radiators) than to use oil or propane for heat. If this situation lasts, it would shift more of the heating load onto electricity, causing more demand for NG, and eventually increasing the price of NG - above a per-BTU parity level, since power stations are much less efficient than good non-electric home heating devices.
Regarding NG price, I think a couple of warm winters may have helped the cost trend also.
Another reason that I expect the price of NG will need to increase is to encourage the production of tight gas/shale gas. These tend to be higher cost, probably due to lower EROI. If we really need the NG for heat and electric, it seems like the cost relativity to oil is likely to increase.
Dear Prof. Hall,
perhaps another 'balloon' could be added to your diagram -an 'Energy Efficiency' balloon. This would reflect the amount of Energy that could be saved by things like replacing tungsten light bulbs, better insulation, etc. I think McKinsey has published some studies on how big the energy savings could be. I assume this 'efficiency bubble' would counteract overall EROI decline.
Regards, Nick.
Nick, you make an excellent point.
If we measure EROEI at the production end, we should also have a statistic for work done per unit of energy at the consuming end.
Compare the amount of fuel consumed for example to 50 move miles per hour on level ground with a 2500 pound vehicle in say 1970 to today.
Or the energy consumption of operating a television set for one in 1970 to today, or the energy consumption to maintain X tempeture in a refrigerator of X square feet. Work done for energy consumed.
I think people would be amazed at the difference over 30 years.
RC
Thats a very important issue, but one separate from the supply side. You are talking about demand changes via conservation and/or efficiency which is different from the fundamental energy qualities/characteristics of a fuel. HOW you use it after you've spent the energy to get it.
True, but it seems impossible to speculate on the effects of decreasing supply without considering the demand side. One has to take both together to comment on potential impacts. Since our systems our highly inefficient, I believe that the demand side could fall significantly while energy supply falls, keeping our standard of living in balance for the immediate future. For example, with the advent of global networks, air travel hasn't been needed by most for over twenty years now. In reality, the Haves will continue to abuse the resources and the Have Nots will continue to increase in suffering so I am just rambling.
Hmmm... since EROEI has been falling since 19XX, it could be proved that it has an effect on our standard of living and then speculation based solely on the supply side would be okay.
I think the Professor Hall's analysis is awesome and love that bubble graph.
Well we have had a tremendous amount of wealth concentration at the high end since the 1970's this concentration effect alone can keep the standard of living of the wealthy increasing even as the standard falls for the rest.
On the lower end we have been blowing a credit bubble since the 1960's and moved to two income families and overall oil has been cheap. So the low end even as its been drained has managed to keep extending itself by adding wage earning power via first women going to work then making higher wages and via credit.
Also in general we have increased the educational level with a lot more college degrees again increasing the average wage. And finally rebuilding from WWII/Communism is just now coming to a end with the world producing evenly in a pattern similar to the 1920's. This is the first time since the 1920's that we have had most of the globes economies working. This growth in china/Russia etc have fed the older economies esp financial/banking.
And of course technology has advanced allowing excellent efficiency gains where it makes economic sense.
So despite the peaking of average energy usage we have had a lot of trends that have allowed the GDP to keep growing outside of efficiency gains which can continue a lot ending in effectiveness. For the US in particular the move to a dual income pretty much peaked in effectiveness over the last ten years. Now the need to have two wage earners who's jobs may prevent both moving close to work results in flat are negative income gains.
In any case we have had a lot of other trends taking place which in my opinion have masked the effect of peak energy for some time. You would have to look at the lifestyles of the working poor to see if they are better off now than say in the 1970's but at least in the US racism played a big role in the earning power of the poor until recently. I'm not saying its gone but its difficult to split out increases in earning power as racism receded from a underlying drop/flat result because of peak energy consumption.
In closing too many factors are at play in the US to get a clear signal and Japan/Europe where devastated by war etc. Actually about the only place you might easily look could be say Egypt but they don't really have technology? I find it hard to think of a place that not suffered other issues which swamped the underlying energy trend.
Maybe Sweden could be used as a baseline Norway is out because of the oil. Sweden and Finland might be one of a handful of technically advanced countries that down have significant other effects.
Interesting for Finland on a energy basis they are flat.
http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_library/country_profiles/ene_cou_246.pdf
Here is the percapita GDP I'm certain its not inflation adjusted.
http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_library/country_profiles/ene_cou_246.pdf
Its increased from 10,00 in 1980 to 30,000 USD per person.
Adjust for inflation they have been flat to decreasing over time.
This is a fantastic paper with a different view point and Finland fares well.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/100405/Usable-Productivity-Growth-in-the-Unite...
I urge you to read it. So it depends. However in general we have not seen blazing growth once you do a few adjustments. If the paper had say included adding the two wage earner effect over the time period and growth to parity in wages coupled with increased eduction rates neither of which are long term stable I'd say the most of these would be zero.
If you then do a quality of life metric with the assumption that you could live comfortably on a single wage and the second wage earner was optional or a lifestyle choice i.e one could choose to say home and raise kids go to school etc. then its decidedly negative.
The energy return of insulation is very dependent on on the type of insulation. Blown in cellulose made from recycled paper has a very high EROEI. Fiberglass on the other hand may be a net energy loser. Manufacturing fiberglass is very energy intensive. An argument was made that installing more than 3 inches would use more natural gas than the amount saved over the next 20 years. These figures though were based on 1970s technology.
Consider this example. Before any insulation was installed a house used 100 units of fuel. After installing a layer of insulation use dropped to 50 units resulting in a net of 50 units. Then a second layer of equal thickness was added and fuel use was cut in half again. This second layer though only saved 25 units of fuel. Additional layers each save smaller and smaller amounts of fuel until the amount of fuel used manufacturing the insulation exceeds the amount of fuel saved. In a time of shrinking fuel supply the question of best use of what remains becomes more and more significant.
Um...France has 58 reactors (59 if you include the FBR Phenix) not 21. Also the reactors used for enrichment are smaller than the fleet average and only 75% of the uranium enriched is used in France's reactors, the rest being exported.
It's also disingenuous to characterise nuclear's EROEI by only considering energy intensive diffusion enrichment, when it comprises only 40% of enrichment capacity today and will fall to 0% within the decade.