Does the Peak Oil "Myth" Just Fall Down? -- Our Response to CERA
Posted by Dave Cohen on February 4, 2007 - 10:00am
Topic: Supply/Production
Tags: cera, daniel yergin, peter jackson [list all tags]
With the release of Why the "Peak Oil" Theory Falls Down Myths, Legends and the Future of Oil Resources by Peter M. Jackson, Cambridge Energy Research Associates (CERA) attempts to cast doubt on the credibility of those with imminent, empirically-based concerns about our future oil supply.
CERA's "Decision Brief" requires a response because since 1870, the health of the world's economies have hinged on a secure, dependable and growing flow of "conventional" oil. Their forecast, shown in Figure 1, predicts that the oil supply will continue to grow and sustain economic growth.
Figure 1 Click to Enlarge
We shall have much more to say about CERA's forecast later. For now, it is sufficient to note that CERA's analysis is lacking. The world's oil supply will not continue to grow to meet ever-rising global demand, and worse, the consequences could irrevocably damage global economies. Such an outcome would have harmful effects on people's lives. So, this debate is not "academic" much depends on a correct analysis of the future oil supply.
1. What is "Peak Oil"?
Peak Oil is the theory, with resulting hypotheses, tested with data, that the world's incremental production of conventional oil over time will reach some high water mark and decline thereafter. There are a number of ways to define "conventional" but, for our purposes here, such oil consists of crude oil, condensate and natural gas liquids.Conventional oil production is measured as the quantity extracted over time. For example, the United States produced 6.88 million barrels per day (mbd) of conventional oil in August, 2006 according to data provided by the Energy Information Administration (EIA). The world as a whole produced 81.55 mbd during the same month. The peak oil hypothesis claims that world production will reach an apex and decline, analogous to the production profile shown in CERA's graph for the United States in Figure 2 below.
Figure 2 Click to Enlarge
As Figure 2 clearly demonstrates, the peak of United States oil production measured in billion barrels per year for crude oil plus condensate occurred in 1970. We will have more to say about CERA's analysis of this graph in section 3 below. Notwithstanding any subtleties of interpretation, it is impossible to deny that the U.S. peak did occur and thereafter, production never reached the 1970 high water mark ever again.
No one, including CERA, doubts that a peak in world conventional oil production will eventually occur; it is only a matter of when it will occur. As Figure 1 shows, CERA believes that the apex of production will happen circa 2040. Those putting forth the peak oil hypothesis simply disagree about the timing. Although estimates vary, most of us agree that the peak will occur sometime before 2015, a scant 9 years from now. Within that range, some think the current plateau in oil production signals that the peak is now while others put the peak elsewhere in the coming decade. If this hypothesis is correct, the world will have little time to mitigate the problem, as outlined in Peaking of World Oil Production: Impacts, Mitigation & Risk Management by Robert L. Hirsch (SAIC), Roger Bezdek, (MISI) Robert Wendling, (MISI) published in February, 2005.
A final word about what peak oil is not: the hypothesis set forth here is not a catastrophist prophecy that the world is running out of oil. Once the world production does peak, views vary as to how severe the decline rate will be thereafter. Many reputable people from the oil & natural gas industry and elsewhere are concerned about peak oil. We are not a doomsday cult.
[editor's note, by Dave Cohen] It will not be possible here to cover all the necessary arguments which a neutral observer might wish to see in order to make a judgement in this debate. In particular, aboveground political risks that might "limit upstream investments" as CERA put it, such as in Russia and elsewhere, are not covered here. Nor have we addressed potentially explosive geopolitical situations such as the Iraq civil war or Iran's nuclear ambitions Middle Eastern tensions could have catastrophic effects on global oil production. We have not been able to include logistical concerns eg. the global shortage of drilling rigs. The alarming trends in world oil exports and declining discoveries which cause us genuine concern are not covered either; for example, conventional oil discoveries peaked in the 1960's and, as a result, the world's largest oil fields, which were found first, are now decades old and aging more with every passing year.
2. Reserves Versus Production Flows
The question of recoverable reserves estimates versus production flows is central to the argument about the timing of peak oil. CERA states that "Reserves/Resource Definitions and Estimates Cloud the Debate". We agree. You will note that our definition of "peak oil" above does not mention reserves at all but, rather, focuses on production flows measured as the quantity extracted over time. Recoverable reserves are almost orthogonal to the debate outside the simple observation that these must exist before any oil can be extracted. The peak oil hypothesis focuses on realistic geological, technological and economic constraints on current & future oil production. A detailed example pertaining to future production will suffice.Great fanfare in the press accompanied Chevron's successful Jack #2 test well in the ultra-deepwater Lower Tertiary basin of the Gulf of Mexico. Press accounts such as Business Week's Plenty of Oil--Just Drill Deeper The discovery of reserves in the Gulf of Mexico means supply isn't topping out highlighted the estimated recoverable reserves numbers, which were given in the range 3 billion (Gb) to 15 billion barrels of oil with emphasis on the latter figure. Press releases related to the new "Decision Brief" have been similar, for example MSNBC's World oil supply still plentiful, study shows in which it is stated that
Cambridge Energy Research Associates said in a report that the world has some 3.74 trillion barrels of oil left -- enough to last 122 years at current consumption rates and triple the amount estimated by "peak oil" theorists.Although CERA states that huge reserves estimates cloud the debate, they continue to promulgate them.
Reading the "fine print" about Jack #2, it became apparent that there were extremely challenging hurdles to overcome in order to actually produce this oil. These included, among other things, the need for drilling equipment beyond the limits of current technology, huge capital expenditure requirements before first production could begin and the further necessity of doing additional tests to find out whether the geology of the reservoirs would permit sufficient oil flow rates to make the play economic to produce. At this time, Chevron and its partners will do additional appraisals next year. No decision has been made yet as to whether development of the Jack field will go forward.
So, it was with some surprise that CERA asserted the following in a press release dated September 6, 2006, based upon their August, 2006 Private Report Expansion Set to Continue: Global Liquids Capacity to 2015.
The most material new resource in the deepwater Gulf of Mexico is the Lower Tertiary Eocene.... [includes the Cascade, Chinook, Saint Malo, Jack, Das Bump, Stones, Hadrian and Great White fields]As the text quoted indicates, with its private clients, CERA does not focus on reserves. The 800/kbd is a production rate, not a reserves number. However these are the take home points CERA has added in productive capacity from the Gulf of Mexico, as shown in Figure 3, for the Wilcox play although it is not clear yet whether some of these fields will even be produced given the constraints on production mentioned above. Furthermore, CERA's production flow estimate is at least 300/kbd higher than any other independent estimate we could find for production in the 2013 period.A production test [Jack #2] is under way to assess the producibility of the deep Wilcox reservoir. Assuming a successful test, a capacity of 800,000 barrels per day [kbd] is projected from the Eocene trend of fields by 2013-14, plus capacity from any subsequent discoveries. [passage from the CERA report referenced above]
Figure 3 Click to Enlarge
What Figure 3 highlights, which is not found anywhere in the CERA's peak oil "Decision Brief", is their assumption shared by us of a 5% decline rate in existing oil production over time. As you can see, what CERA calls the "Upstream Oil Challenge" is a race between bringing new conventional oil production on-stream and declining production in existing oil fields such as Mexico's giant offshore Cantarell field. The assumed global decline rate is crucial. The hard & expensive problem of bringing new oil production on-stream is compounded over time by an exponential decline rate which requires the world to run faster to stay in-place, let alone move forward to meet increasing demand. Moreover, some of the conventional oil CERA is counting on to meet the demand challenge involves fields under appraisal or "yet to find" resources this is oil that does not yet exist. Of the 3.74 trillion barrels of oil CERA claims remains to be exploited see section 3 below 0.758 trillion barrels comes from "exploration potential" ie. it has not yet been discovered but, presumably, is recoverable despite unknown geological, technological and economic constraints on production of a non-existent resource.
For Saudi Arabia, now the world's 2nd biggest producer, Kjell Aleklett, President of ASPO (Europe) has this to say:
As an example, CERA thinks that Saudi Arabia needs more than 2 million barrels per day from fields that not have been found today. Shaybah is the latest giant field that Saudi Arabia started up in 1998 with a production capacity of 500,000 barrels per day. In principle, CERA is saying that the production equivalent of 4 Shaybah fields will be found and put into production during the next 9 years in Saudi Arabia.As you can readily see, there is more to the peak oil problem than meets the eye as detailed in CERA's latest "Decision Brief". The peak oil hypothesis is both complex and worrisome.
3. Unconventional Oil Substitutes
As shown in Figure 1, the ability of the world to bring substitutes for conventional oil on-stream figures prominently in CERA's analysis both now and in the future. They define these substitutes as follows However, demand for refined products could outstrip conventional crude oil production. Conventional crude oil production excludes liquids production from heavy oil sands, ultra-deepwater oils, gas-related liquids (condensate and natural gas liquids), gas-to-liquids (GTL), and coal-to-liquids (CTL).* This means that additional sources of liquid fuels will be needed in abundance and in a timely manner, assuming relatively strong global economic and oil demand growth. Technology will promote a widening of the concept of conventional oil, as has occurred over the history of the industry.Let us get some clarifications and additions out of the way. First, in our more generous definition of conventional oil, condensates and natural gas liquids are already included. Second, whether ultra-deepwater production is conventional or not is a red herring it makes no difference to the debate. Heavy oil sands sometimes called tar sands refers to both the production of oil sands in Alberta, Canada by means of in situ heating or mining methods and the production of heavy tar in Venezuela's Orinoco Basin. Additional substitutes CERA considers include ethanol from cellulosic biomass or corn, from sugar cane (as in Brazil), diesel fuel from soybeans, and the like. Also not mentioned directly in the quote above is future production from oil shales. Taken altogether, these new sources plus additional conventional oil production are the source of the numbers quoted in the mainstream press.
CERA believes that the global inventory is some 4.82 trillion barrels of resources of which about 1.08 trillion barrels have been produced already. Therefore, there is as much as 3.74 trillion barrels of conventional and unconventional resource remaining, and this order of magnitude of resources will allow productive capacity to continue to expand well into this century.Although CERA asserts that "those who believe that a peak is imminent tend to consider only proven remaining resources of conventional oil, which at present they believe to be approximately 1.2 trillion barrels", any cursory glance at stories on The Oil Drum or much of the published peak oil literature will readily reveal that substitutes for oil are analyzed all the time. The reason for this is both simple & compelling since we believe the timing of peak oil is sooner rather than later, we are very concerned about whether substitutes will be available to ease the transition away from conventional oil to create a different energy mix in the future.[Note: for example, CERA estimates 0.707 trillion barrels to be produced from oil shales]
Unfortunately, our analysis reveals the same worrisome pattern over and over again for substitutes. The three principal problems with substitutes are listed below.
- Scalability by volume new liquid fuel resources can generally only provide a small percentage of the total volumes of liquid fuels supplied by conventional oil. For example, a National Academy of Sciences report came to the following conclusion.
The real risk from all these planned ethanol plants is that they'll use up vast quantities of corn. America's entire corn and soy crop could supply fuel volumes equal to just 12% of gasoline demand and 6% of diesel demand, notes a University of Minnesota ecology professor, David Tilman, an author of the July 25 Proceedings article.
- Scalability in time even where there is a vast resource, liquid production flows from substitutes are slow to ramp up. As a result, in the case of exponentially declining oil production not replaced by new conventional oil sources, substitutes will not make up shortfalls incurred in the short-term. To make matters worse, similar remarks apply to production of new conventional oil eg. recovering stranded oil by means of CO2 injection enhanced oil recovery (EOR).
- Low Energy Returns this refers to energy returned by a production process for a fuel divided by the energy required to produce the fuel standardly abbreviated as the EROEI. Both substitutes and, increasingly, new conventional oil production, have lower EROEIs tending toward the limit = 1. The closer one gets to the limit, the smaller the marginal returns. The EROEI term need not be confined to fossil fuel energy inputs but may include all of the economic costs associated with developing an energy fuel resource, depending on where the boundaries for the calculation are set. The general idea here is that the world is not like Spindletop in the Southeast of Texas anymore. You can not just sink a drillpipe and get a gusher anymore. The so-called "low hanging" fruit is gone and what is left is energy-intensive to develop & produce.
In an example of points #1 & #2 above, CERA believes that "GTL and CTL collectively may well represent 6 percent of global productive capacity by 2030", an unimpressive fraction of liquids production as estimated for that time period. Obviously, in the shorter term within the next decade, the percentage of gas-to-liquids or coal-to-liquids that will substitute for conventional oil will be negligible. Similar remarks apply to oil shales. If you believe, as we do, that the peak of production will come sooner rather than later, there is genuine cause for deep concern.
CERA explicitly acknowledges the scalability problems as the timescale of Figure 1 indicates. Despite their belief that the economics of unconventional substitutes is favorable, however, CERA does not seem to take net energy returns into account. There are already problems with the production of the oil sands in Canada, our most successful substitute so far. Capital expenditure costs are soaring to support new incremental production measured in increments of 100/kbd, thus making it harder to attract capital investments. Total production from the sands may be in the 2 to 3/mbd range by 2015, although estimates vary given the ongoing environment, logistic and net energy concerns there.
The bottom line as shown in Figure 1 from the CERA "Decision Brief" is that conventional oil production will conveniently increase until substitutes are ready to come on-stream much farther down the road, thus providing a seamless transition to the new liquid fuel sources. If CERA is mistaken about that production, substitutes will be of little avail in making up shortfalls.
4. Peak Oil Modeling Theory & Data
CERA berates those concerned about peak oil, labeled peakists in their document, for using questionable data and analysis methods. This passage is worth quoting in full.We are also struck by three characteristics of the current debate:Here we must take exception to CERA's characterization of peak oil research, especially here at The Oil Drum. Not only have we tracked CERA's bottom-up project- by-project analysis in the past a complete list of stories is too long to enumerate here but we also avail ourselves of whatever data we can find, such as the Megaprojects Database compiled by Chris Skrebowski, editor of the Petroleum Review.
- The peakist argument is not grounded in a credible systematic evaluation of available data.
- The peakist arguments cluster around the questionable model described by the late American geologist M. King Hubbert. This is a technique that fails to recognize both that recoverable reserves estimates evolve with time and are subject to constant and often significant change. It also underplays the far-reaching impact of technological advances.
- Some of the peakists are, interestingly, shifting their emphasis away from running out, in terms of physical resources, to issues that we believe are significant--infrastructure and aboveground risks.
Space limitations preclude going into much detail here, but suffice it to say that it is a bit disingenuous for an organization such as CERA, a wholly-owned subsidiary of IHS Energy, to charge money for it's reports for paying clients and then turn around and tell us that we are unfamiliar with the current & future oil production data. This points up a larger issue which Matt Simmons has brought to the forefront of public attention: data transparency in the world's oil industry. Just as we can not see some of CERA's field-by-field production projections, we also can not see an historical production profile or this year's monthly production data for Ghawar in Saudi Arabia, the world's biggest oil field. For an issue so crucial to the health of world economies, the lack of readily accessible data is scandalous. A pro bono approach would make data available to independent organizations that have an interest in analyzing it.
CERA's critique of Hubbert modeling is quoted below.
Despite his valuable contribution, M. King Hubbert's methodology falls down because it does not consider likely resource growth, application of new technology, basic commercial factors, or the impact of geopolitics on production. His approach does not work in all cases--including on the United States itself--and cannot reliably model a global production outlook. Put more simply, the case for the imminent peak is flawed. As it is, production in 2005 in the Lower 48 in the United States was 66 percent higher than Hubbert projected [see Figure 2].M. King Hubbert's logistic production curve is not a physical model, so naturally it does not take into account technology, geopolitics or economics. It is simply a modeling tool which provides one more independent line of evidence that peak oil analysts use to investigate their hypothesis. Other lines of evidence, as discussed above, do take into account "real world" data. We accept CERA's criticism that such production data do not always follow the logistic (bell) curve that forms the basis of the model. However, unless some geopolitical perturbations occur or the oil producing region is relatively immature, it is usually the case that deviations from the logistic are seen in the tail end of the curve after the apex of production has already occurred. See the Graphoilogy weblog for additional information.
However, the criticism that the United States does not follow Hubbert's predictions does not hold water. While it is true that Hubbert did not foresee Prudhoe Bay and other Alaskan production, or the deepwater developments in the Gulf of Mexico, it is nevertheless the case that 1) U.S. production did indeed peak just about when Hubbert said it would and 2) despite reserves growth during the subsequent period in the tail end of the curve, actual oil production never again reached its 1970 peak it has declined ever since. These are the salient observations to bear in mind.
Moreover, CERA makes some observations that cast doubt on their understanding of Hubbert's methods and further refinements to it. CERA makes the following claim:
Hubbert's method also requires an accurate knowledge of the ultimate recoverable reserves of any area. However, numerous studies point to the fact that, during the life of oil fields, resource estimates often increase as understanding of the field improves and new technology is applied.In fact, a Hubbert Linearization based on cumulative production yields an estimate of the ultimately recoverable reserves (URR) these are not known in advance. For example, this linearization for Romania indicates that the URR will be 6.2 billion barrels and that there is a decline rate of approximately 6.7%.
Linearization of Romanian production (the y-axis
the ratio of annual production to cumulative
production, x-axis is cumulative production.
Linear fit is to the region for 1955 on (green
data - plum data is prior to 1955). Click for
larger version. Source: American Petroleum
Institute (courtesy J. Laharrere) for 1857-1958,
and BP for 1965-2005 (includes NGLs). Production
data for 1959-1964 is linearly interpolated
between the two data sets.
Figure 4 Click to Enlarge
Kuwait provides another important example of using the Hubbert linearization to estimate recoverable reserves.
At the Oil Depletion conference (hosted by the Energy Institute) held in London on 7th November, Dr Kenneth Chew, a Vice President of IHS Energy [CERA's parent company] reported proved and probable reserves (2P) for Kuwait of around 52 billion barrels... This is approximately 51% of the proved reserves reported in the BP statistical review that stand at 101.5 billion barrels. This tends to support recent reports of Kuwaiti reserves being substantially overstated.A linearization for Kuwait yields an estimate of 40 billion recoverable barrels there, an number more in line with IHS Energy's conclusions than OPEC's "official" estimate of 101.5 billion barrels.
The bottom-line is that those studying the peak oil hypothesis are not wedded to Hubbert's theory, which has been refined over the years. However, these mathematical tools provide a sometimes startlingly accurate model of real world production data, especially where the data set is completely known such as in the United States and Norway which is also in decline.
5. Our Conclusions
In Figure 3, CERA shows current productive capacity at 88.7/mbd. This number was set in the Spring of 2006 and has not changed since, to our knowledge. In fact, according to the EIA, actual conventional oil production (as defined here) was 81.55/mbd in August, 2006, a figure which excludes the category other liquids these include refinery gains, biofuels, etc. We can not know the source of the discrepancy between the two numbers. However, if actual production bears the same relationship to productive capacity in the future as it does today given CERA's projected demand, there appears to be genuine cause for worry belying their rosy forecast.To quote CERA's Peter M. Jackson once more:
In these times of relatively tight supply, high and volatile oil prices, and anxiety about energy security, the peak oil debate is raging once more. This debate reflects one of the most important issues facing not only the energy industry, but the world at large. Those believing in a doomsday scenario argue that peak oil is near and that the world is ill prepared for it. If world oil production were to enter a sharp downward spiral in the next several years, the ramifications for the global economy and geopolitics would be severe and potentially catastrophic.We are concerned that CERA has "maintained a consistent contrary view" and not taken the peak oil hypothesis seriously until now. We can only agree that "this debate reflects one of the most important issues facing not only the energy industry, but the world at large." We hope our response demonstrates that the peak oil hypothesis is anything but simplistic. Furthermore, no one here or elsewhere is claiming that conventional oil will "run out" anytime soon. Rather, the peak oil view is an evolving, sophisticated take on conventional oil production and the viability of substitutes to replace continuing demand for this paramount fossil fuel in the face of inevitable declines in available supply. Only the timing of such declines is at issue here. We can also only add that denial in the face of potentially very threatening events is a powerful force in the human psyche.For many years CERA has maintained a consistent contrary view. CERA does not agree with the simplistic concept of an imminent peak in oil production nor with the idea that oil will "run out" soon thereafter.
In conclusion, the peak oil debate is still alive and well, not moribund, as CERA and some mainstream media accounts would have you believe. We at The Oil Drum are not persuaded in the least by CERA's often and disappointingly weak arguments which, ultimately, depend on many assumptions we consider unrealistic.
Dave Cohen
TOD Senior Contributor
News Contacts: theoildrum @ gmail.com
The Author: davec @ linkvoyager.com



Also, we hope that you will also spend some time talking about this subject on your own blogs, sending this post to as many media outlets you think will publish or respond as possible, and sending this post to your public and/or elected officials.
Simply put, we must come to achieving a better understanding of our energy supply--the geopolitical, political, and social aspects of a plateauing supply with ever growing global demand could have an impact on the daily lives, especially of those who are less fortunate.
TOD will also be putting out a press release on this topic next week; we hope that you will also send that around as well when it is ready. It will be shorter and more consumable for those not exposed to this mode of thinking.
Just a quick idea, but getting press attention for the issue tends to require the 'good story'. CERA achieve this by pushing a view which is contrary to the accepted wisdom and very palatable for the general populous to believe in.
A suggestion would be to challenge CERA to a wager - say the $1000 they charge everyone to get hold of the words of 'wisdom'. CERA take their optimistic predictions of world oil production, TOD one that reflects the peak oil hypothosis and predicted data set. Whoever gets closest to the mark over a defined time period (say the whole of 2007) wins the bet.
The story is good and would get coverage, and I'll bet that given the reported mismatch that is already in their predictions, CERA would decline to take part - telling its own story.
If we are so flush with energy, then why is it that today I received the third mailing from my local utility company offering a $25 energy credit in return for allowing them to install a device that periodically shuts off the air conditioner during times of peak usage? I also received a telephone call from a pushy company rep with the same offer.
The utility company must have sent that letter to all their customers.
You don't need to keep your house at 65F durring the summer while your not even home. Turn it off or turn it up and save some energy.
The topic of the main posting is that CERA and other like minded groups are implying that ff production capacity is not reaching its limits and can meet projected demand. If that is the case, then it does not follow that utility companies would be worried about not being able to meet demand. The large metropolitan area I live in already had an incident last winter when the utility company was forced to shut off power to large areas due to lack of natural gas. Personally, I see this as a harbinger - but that is my take.
I understand that utility company problems are multifactorial, but this was beyond the scope of the simple point I was making. You were not even on the same page. Heck, you were not looking at the same book.
Try not to be so overreactive. Your views may be in the minority on TOD, but having a thoughtful and polite tone will go far in allowing others to consider any valid points you may make.
I would like to point out your original post is irrelevant. There are many reasons for electric companies wanting to reduce demand during peak periods, many of them financial.
And your story about your utility having to shut off power because of a natural gas shortage? This post was about liquids.
PS. I agree that Hothgor was rude.
ImSceptical was right. This kind of program has very good justifications that are unrelated to fuel shortages.
It's called "demand management". It can be much cheaper to pay people to allow the utility to turn off their demand at peak, versus building new generation capacity just for peak demand.
in any case, i applaud energy conservation efforts for whatever reason.
The WSJ had a short note yesterday about the American Petroleum Institute (API) sending a letter to Congress warning them that if they raise taxes on the oil and gas industry it will hinder the industry's efforts to bring on new supplies of oil and gas and new alternative energy sources.
I actually agree with the API on this point, but I disgree withe the semi-cornucopian way they (and probably CERA) are trying to combat higher taxes. IMO, we need a much higher tax on energy consumption, offset by a cut to the Payroll Tax.
If you have time, could you please explain a little more about what you say here? I'm just not sure I'm reading this correctly. 1) Are you saying that the industry efforts to bring on "new alternative energy sources" would be hindered by raising taxes on the industry itself? 2) And when you say you agree with API...do you see a difference between "...taxes..on the industry" and "...a higher tax on energy consumption"? Or, do you see these as being essentially the same? 3) What do you see as actions that would promote (rather than hinder) "...new alternative...sources"? (I just realize I'm assuming by "new...sources", you mean - actually, which new sources are you including when you use this word?) I apologize in advance if I've not understood your previous posts on this subject. Thanks.
Full disclosure: I am an energy producer. In any case, I don't think that taxing energy production is going to help. I think that we need to tax energy consumption--in much the same way the Europeans do. Total energy consmption per capita in the US is twice what it is in Europe.
However, the API is taking the cornucopian approach. Just leave us alone and everyone will continue to be able to drive their SUV to their suburban mortgages.
BTW, the weekend WSJ has an article that goes into considerable detail on the effect that forced energy conservation is having on Africa.
WT,
As long as we continue to offer oil companies corporate welfare, they will take it. With Exxon receiving the largest profit in corporate history (any corp), I doubt that increasing taxes and eliminating subsidies will hurt it much.
As they get prodigiously richer, the oil execs will be the only people who can afford to drive SUVs to their mortgages.
I agree that consumer taxes are necessary, but we must not forget the super-wealthy corporations. I am, of course, assuming that when the MSM says "profit," they mean money left over after all operating expenses, including research and exploration dollars.
Personally, I believe that we must immediately begin taxing the bejeezus out of all the rich and especially the corporations. They have gotten too much from the commonwealth and returned too little or have caused actual damage.
I have little sympathy for rich people who cry crocodile tears when they only have a couple of million dollars left to live on. BOO HOO.
This sort of selfish behaviour earns the applause of right wingers who claim it is precisely this "evil" behaviour that produces all the good things we currently enjoy. Unfortunately, for this argument, the good things have been available since time began. I.E. food, water, and air. (For how much longer, I don't know.) Corporations do not account for environmental costs, effectively off-loading these costs onto the commons. When a person gets sick from pollution caused by a corporation hundreds of miles away, society picks up the tab. This is nitpicking on my part, using the terminology of the economic categorizer, please forgive me. I must wash out my mouth with organic soap. The overarching truth of pollution remains: it is killing the planet. Does not matter how we slice the fictional economic pie, that group over there, better known as XYZ Corp., engages in murder; therefore, such selfish, evil behaviour must be stopped. That is why we must tax the bejeezus out of the rich. We need to clean up their selfish messes.
A tax on a corporation is a tax on its employees, its shareholders and its customers.
A corporation is just a legal construct, it isn't an end user in economic terms.
The actual fraction of say a $100 tax might be split 33/33/34 or it might be split very differently.
It depends on how competitive the markets in which the corporation operates in, and how competitive the suppliers are, and the employees.
So a company like WalMart is incredibly competitive, dominates its sector, dominates its supplier *but* it makes sub 10% margins.
Any new tax on WalMart is passed through to its employees, its suppliers and its customers.
Any proposal to 'tax' corporations has to recognise this transparency.
In practice, what the US should have is a low rate of corporate income tax (I would argue 25% or lower) but *no* exemptions. This would have the least distorting effect on tax revenues, and might actually raise corporate tax revenues.
Good thoughts, tho' I'm not an economist enough to agree or disagree..
As long as the 'no exemptions' part doesn't just get painted as a 'new tax', I think this would have a prodigious effect.. almost a corporate Flat Tax. So in the same corner, do you have a take on a US policy direction that would also deal with the virtual 'offshoring' of corporations to avoid our taxes? Would it be better to have a policy DISincentive to being outside the border (ie, Tariffs and other int'l Trading costs?), or some other kind of INcentive to keep a firm flying the Stars and Stripes? Membership ought to have its priviledges..
Bob Fiske
Dave-I understand the new Congressional commitee on energy is skeptical of the CERA report, stating they felt Cera's use of USGS data was erroneous. Should get them a copy of your work. Sorry I don't recall/have the links, just I recall an AP wire story read yesterday.
These CERA-related stories were probably earmarked elsewhere here at TOD:
http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/new_world_order/bush_nazis.html
This could be worth some digging.
Oh boy...
http://www.nndb.com/people/460/000060280/
Now, where did I leave my tin foil hat?
I need a tin foil coat to go with my hat
The fact is who pays CERA's bills is quite relevant perhaps more so than the organization's claim for objectivity. These analysts are ultimately hired by corporations (often through industry trade groups)for one reason: to promote either the company(s) that hired them or the individual that signed the contract. CERA's job is to make petroleum-related industries and people look good. I didn't pay their way. Perhaps you have?
There is one maxim that will drive any successful political or business investigation: follow the money. I say do it.
And when did CERA become the "contrary" source to the conventional wisdom? I feel they merely reinforce the status quo more than anything else.
CERA states: "The new report describes CERA's liquids supply outlook as "not a view of endless abundance."...Global production will eventually follow an "undulating plateau" for one or more decades before declining slowly...During the plateau period in later decades, according to the CERA analysis, demand growth will likely no longer be largely met by growth in available, commercially exploitable natural oil supplies.
As far as I can tell the Norwegians are at the forfront of recoverability technology, and they admit that only injecting water or gas is the best technology so far. When you inject water or gas, the well lasts longer but output declines -- it is a bump on the bottom of the decline curve.
The Norweigans describe their technologies to improve recovery: 1. injections of water or gas, 2. use of foam combined with WAG (FAWAG) and of microbes (MIOR) (which hasn't worked well so far for Norway) -- the NPD does not know of other other methods that work but suggests research should be done to improve recovery. Does anyone know of any advances in recoverability technology?
If one thinks about the processes involved, a long lasting trickle seems reasonable.
Alan
"The underlying analytical model formulated by the late M. King Hubbert both fails to recognize that recoverable reserve estimates evolve with time and are subject to significant change, and it also underplays the substantial impact of technological advances...
"The peak argument is an incomplete and therefore misleading analysis because it ignores the role of development (vs exploration) projects in expanding reserves, fails to understand economic factors that can point company and national strategies to emphasize development vs exploration work."
I study IOR (improved oil recovery) and EOR (enhanced oil recovery) when I work on this stuff and post on it frequently.
It's insulting for CERA to say that. If you click on the link I provide in the last paragraph of my post, you will see an article by some of our ASPO-USA colleagues -- one of whom is Jeremy Gilbert, former Chief Petroleum Engineer for a small oil company that nobody here has ever heard of called British Petroleum. I'm quite sure he knows nothing about IOR & EOR.
Help me out here. My level of sarcasm doesn't seem quite up to the task.
Keeping our cool we can see that they provide ammunition for counter-arguments, such as you provide by talking about Mr. Gilbert and the other oil people who contribute. You are doing a great job. We can ask them to explain how all these factors haven't reversed the path of decline in any region yet, but they continue to cling to the belief they somehow will? Their reliance on fantasy technologies, fantasy oil fields, fantasy reserve growth and fantasy energy positive unconventional sources to arrive at their fantasy numbers is what's really amateurish and despicable.
To do otherwise, leaves stranded URR and that my friend is an oxymoron. We are not talking of micro advancements of IOR.
The "distortion cloud" clings closely to one cleverly concealed place: CERA's database.
Obviously it is a matter of national security to make sure that no one knows the truth and to embed notions of mistrust and confusion in the ranks of those few scientists who have figured it out anyway.
Rumor has it that CERA's secret database is located in a remote and fog-shrouded island somewhere between the North Pole and NeverNever Land.
Who cares if history proves them wrong 15 years in the future? Such reports / statements have a very short half-life. Only Mr. Yergins' reputation might suffer a bit, but he's a public person. And the most important thing about someone in public is that he gets press - good or bad only matters if you're up for election...
Used the German, which means "if" and "when".
Happens sometimes..
I really don't want to go. The Sheik's third son has really got it set up pisser for me. And I really think his third wife's sister's [screeech]'s bodyguard's [yo don't say that] with the big o' [yo!] is working out real good. I'm serious. She smells good, too.
When I went to digg (or was it reddit?) this article, a different menu popped up, and it wanted me to tell it about the article, including a category. So is it
- business/finance?
- environment?
- world news?
... it doesn't quite seem to fit any one digg category.It's been three months or so since I did a Peak Oil column in for my suburban Dallas newspaper group. I'll do something sometime before the end of the year.
If a story gets enough diggs it will make it to the front page.
* Now this is where TOD really would get a huge volume of hits. *
This, and several other articles are classic -- is there a collection of them somewhere? Has anyone converted them to PDF?
Thanks for all the hard work
Tom Duncan
Excellent summary and rebuttal to CERA. Keep it up.
None of the graphs enlarge when clicked. Just halfway through the analysis (looks great) but frustrated by fact cannot read the "fine print."
Cheers!
Power = Work / Time
Time = Money
Therefore: Knowledge = Work / Money
Id est Money is inversely proportional to Knowledge, explaining why TOD writers work for free whereas CERA do not!
Then you would have the equation:
Money= Work/(technical.knoweledge)
and that would explain why Dilbert & freinds makes so little while their pointed-hairdo manager makes more.

In a Forbes column published on 11/1/04, Yergin predicted that rising oil production would force prices down to $38 by barrel by 11/1/05, in order to equalize supply and demand. I am not aware of any statements by Jackson refuting Yergin's view.
Boone Pickens and Richard Rainwater took a contrary view. They invested large sums of money based on the premise that flat to falling oil production would force oil prices up in order to equalize supply and demand.
Note that Jackson & Yergin have so far been wrong, while Pickens and Rainwater have so far been correct.
Following is a link to an open letter that I wrote to the publishers of the Dallas Morning News and the Fort Worth Star Telegram regarding Mr. Pickens' views and Mr. Rainwater's views on Peak Oil.
Interestingly enough, on 11/1/05--the very day that Yergin predicted that oil prices would be at $38 per barrel--I gave Mr. Pickens a copy of some of my early work on Hubbert Linearization (HL), based on Deffeyes' description of the method. Mr. Pickens' assistant was on the phone with me the next morning at 8:00 A.M., asking me to come by and brief Mr. Pickens' staff on the HL method.
http://www.energybulletin.net/14606.html
Published on 3 Apr 2006 by GraphOilogy. Archived on 3 Apr 2006.
Open letter to Texas newspapers about peak oil: 'Why aren't you listening?'
by Jeffrey J. Brown
Freddy/Hoth's contributions to this site are not worth the distortion that they introduce. These guys (guy) are masters of pure sophistry. Please, please, just kick them off and make them at least create new IDs. Whatever these guys are ( trolls, obnoxious SOBs, or just very, very socially awkward miscreants ) they just dont need to be here. I agree whole heartedly that discident voices are needed but these guys aint it. The most effective and most damaging propoganda is that which is laced with half-truths.. Just enough to sound credible but completely destructive to real understanding.
Junk'em!!
I kind of agree with your sentiment but until we get some good models to replace some of the cheap heuristics that we rely on excessively (such as the bloody non-physical Logistic equation) we may well deserve the distractions. I would hate to continuously try to justify empirically derived evidence in the absence of a good physical and mathematical model. In my case, years of schooling have indoctrinated me to stay away from rank empiricism. I can see the temptation though.
And regardless of how many 'false peaks' there have been, it certainly seems as if the USA, Britain, Norway, Romania (which definitely had a double peak not based on massive new discoveries as in the USA), and many others have peaked.
Though it may be an interesting academic debate about how reliable/predictive HL is, depletion is non-stop.
To a certain extent, this argument has gone beyond if oil will peak, and to a certain extent, even when it will peak, to when will the maximum amount of available energy provided by liquid fossil fuels be achieved? There is absolutely no way that Saudi Arabia's current infrastructure for water injection/water removal, combined with the increasing amount of heavier, sour crude being produced is returning as much energy in terms of transported oil as was produced in 1980. And how much oil 'production' is being consumed to pump the produced oil? I would assume that much of Saudi Arabia's oil infrastructure uses oil for its energy - could it be that a produced barrel is then consumed to produce further barrels, but only the produced number is publicly available - in other words, how much increasing oil consumption in an export land like Saudia Arabia or Russia is not consumption in terms of consumer use, but the amount required to keep production at its current level? (As pure speculation, this could even explain Saudi Arabia's first public fuel oil purchase - where before, they could use fairly high grade crude/lightly refined crude as fuel in a brute cost effective method, what they now pump is simply too low quality/costly to use/refine that way.)
Peak oil is a lot more than a discussion of HL. But hey, let's keep discussing the validity of statistical methodology and data gathering variances instead of confronting some seriously challenging analytical problems - for example, does 'barrel' represent a meaningful comparison of energy available between 1980 and 2005? It is hard enough to get information about how much oil a project is actually producing - but how much energy is used at Prudhoe Bay to pump the barrels which count as production? I think it is reasonable to assume more energy than in the past, but by how much? Obviously, .1% is meaningless, but what if the number is 6%? This would then make depletion a much more interesting discussion, as the true economic value we are interested in is the energy available for economic activity, not merely the volume of oil itself.
To be simplistic - assuming you have a motor which runs all three, would you prefer to pay $1 for a gallon of diesel, or gasoline, or ethanol? In the end, it is the amount of work you get out of the dollar of fuel that is important, not the volume/price per se.
In the end, this is not really a discussion about oil as much as it is about energy. It is just that oil allows for wonderfully bounded discussions, seeing as how it is so critical and hard to replace in various transportation infrastructures.
What I wonder is how much (if any, of course) of the peak oil debate is no longer based on comparable numbers, and in how the oil which is likely used in oil production is counted - for example, I have a hard time imagining Saudi Arabia uses much of anything for energy but oil and natural gas - the idea of them importing coal, or using nuclear energy is quite boggling. And considering the cost of renewables, why should people sitting on something which costs them less than fresh water bother with PV or wind turbines?
Aren't peer review and constant correction important parts of the scientific method?
There are always anomalies, and no method is perfect. However, most of the premature peaks, e.g. Iran and the UK, have been due to political or technical problems.
The method does seem to work pretty well on large producing regions that have been producing serious amounts of oil (measured in millions) for serious amounts of time (measured in decades).
The following regions have shown lower production after crossing the 50% of Qt mark: Texas; Lower 48; Total US (secondary lower peak after Alaska); Russia; North Sea; Saudi Arabia and now the world (everything but total liquids).
As I have previously pointed out, the method was quite accurate in predicting the post-50% of Qt cumulative production for the Lower 48 and Russia.
When we integrate a production rate versus time graph, we get the URR, or what Deffeyes called Qt.
IMO, the HL method is the most objective way of estimating Qt. 50% of Qt is the point at which a region has produced half of its estimated URR. As noted above, the post-50% of Qt cumulative production for the Lower 48 and Russia has basically been exactly what the HL model predicted it would be, using only production data through the 50% of Qt mark to predict the post-50% of Qt production.
Check out the following EB headline. Mexico just crossed the 50% of Qt mark (Khebab's work):
Mexico's energy crisis has arrived
Annette Hester, Macleans Magazine (Canada)
Is it possible to find any examples there the HL Method produce a very bad result?
If you went back in time to Texas, it would have predicted a peak about 20 years before it actually occurred.
Bad response. This isn't a game with somebody keeping score.
Take a look at the curves on Khebab's site:
http://graphoilogy.blogspot.com/2006/09/hubbert-parabola.html
Thanks these plots was just what i searched for. I was thinking that if the HL Method did not work well for very few countries it is probably a good tool.
In dec 04 I began studying energy issues and discovered aspo. Deciding they were on to something, I jumped in with both feet, bought ard/gmxr warrants, and quadrupled my ira in 05. Had I instead listened to cera, I might have sold oil or ng short, with different results. I wonder if anybody buying their pap actually invests based on what it says, or if all purchases are how cera is paid to misdirect the public.
This whole CERA business is irritating me - it is obvious that they have some serious MSM support.
I thought about it and put a website of mine on Google Adwords - if you search for CERA or "Cambridge Energy Research Associates" on Google, you should get a link to afterpeakoil.com on the right of the page.
AfterPeakOil.com is a semi-dormant website that links back to some more interesting things - including TheOilDrum.com
I hope that helps even matters a little bit.
Well, Alfred, what can I say? I guess we should be glad for your input. To be honest, nobody really gives a fuck what you think, but hey, this is TOD.
Here's some advice guarranteed to work.
- Don't read TOD
- Develop thicker skin
- Take up heroin-injection as a hobby.
- REALIZE - TOD vs. CERA is like Vampires vs. Zombies.
Godzilla vs. King KongAlien vs. Predator
The ultimate confrontation. The ultimate showdown.
Aaaaarre you reeeeeaaaaaddddy to Rumble! ???
No getting irritated allowed. Either fight or run.
Such a post is TOTALLY out of line here. I'm a frequent reader and don't post much - that's because I know when I have something to contribute and if I don't I shut up. Posts like the one above are nothing but trolling. There should be a zero tolerance policy for this. First a probationary ban, then a permanant one. Combined with some kind of built-in way to automatically delete such gutter posts. I'm looking forward to when the editors roll out the updates that I've read about, hopefully, so that there will be a framework implemented to address this now on-going problem. We need to maintain freedom of debate but such postings just hinder it in the first place.
The primary purpose of the HL method is to estimate the area of a production rate versus time graph, which is URR, or Qt. The method is much less accurate in predicting the actual production rate at a given point in time. Note that CERA did not comment on Hubbert's prediction for cumulative Lower 48 production. Also note that the farther away one is from the 50% of Qt mark, the less accurate the method is.
From my 7/7/06 post on the HL Method (on post-50% of Qt Models for the Lower 48 and Russia):
In other words, the HL method accurately predicted the post-50% of Qt cumulative production for both the Lower 48 and Russia. The world is now right at the 50% of Qt mark for both crude + condensate and crude + condensate + NGL's. And the most recent EIA data show that both measures of oil production, as predicted by the HL method, are flat to lower relative to late 2005. Only Total Liquids, which counts everything, including ethanol, is up over late 2005.
Thank you for explaining this. I was going to ask you about production rate predictability this morning. Detractors like CERA are trying to attribute prediction capabilities not intended by the HL method. This is a favorite tactic of conservative talk radio. They attribute a related but not accurate position to the "bad guy" so they have an easy argument against him.
I believe your message we all need to downsize as much as possible can not be repeated enough.
As I have frequently said, if you follow my advice and if I am wrong about the proximity of Peak Oil, you will have less debt, more money in the bank and a lower stress way of life.
The implied message that Yergin and Jackson are conveying is "Party on Dude." Go ahead and buy and finance the large SUV to drive to and from the large suburban mortgage.
Well if that's the only part of our life you want to look at, then of course you'd reach that conclusion. It might be the Faux 'Norman Rockwell' picture that some part of the corporate culture has painted into their advertisements, but there is a lot more to who we are, and the variety of people that live here than this 'Consume mass quantities' stereotype. It seems to me that making such a sweeping statement is to exactly buy into that manipulated image of the US. It is a factor, but there are aspects of this culture that can and do counteract the ones you mentioned.. such as, the counterpart to this 'Self-gratification' is our continued calvinistic insistence on overwork, killing off most peoples' chance at having any time for the gratification they 'think' they might be struggling to achieve.
~~~~~~~~~~
Doctor
'What would you say if I told you you weren't the Don of a great Villa, but were a patient at a psychiatric institution?'
DeMarco
'I would say that is a very sad and limited interpretation of this situation'
-Don Juan de Marco (very loosely from memory)
American Mania: When More Is Not Enough - Peter Whybrow
The Cultural Contradictions of Capitalism - Daniel Bell
and the outstanding BBC series: The Century Of The Self - available on Google Video.
Regarding the calvinistic impulse to work, why bother except to acquire more stuff? Look around, you see it everywhere.
We are mired in consumerism. It's the water we swim in, and everyone is wet, but that doesn't mean that if someone lives in a development, or they drive a big Pickup or an SUV, that they are bought and sold by the ideology.
To paint the whole society as this orgy of greed is as much a part of our 'deep roots' as is the consumer behavior itself. Attacking it is the (again) puritanical bashing for being 'Lazy, Greedy, Slothful and Mean'.. are there people like that? Sure. Is it a really useful portrait of the society? I have to say that it is not, since it is framed as this all-out condemnation, and if you want to work out the enormous problems we need to correct, then the view has to include a fair assessment of the varieties, and the productive parts of the US culture. We have our Lois Armstrongs, our Granny D's, our Steinbecks and our Amory Lovins, and you and me on this forum, joined by scads of others. (You British or Yank?)
I don't deny that we have a massive consumption problem, who could, but to whitewash the whole shebang is to lose track of the keys to finding a way out.
We often play with this age-old adage, "What's wrong with this picture?".. but the game often becomes circular and goes nowhere. I think we might give ourselves more chances at finding solutions by asking 'What's right with it?', since there will lie the potential routes to channel our energy towards, instead of perpetually spinning in disgruntledness..
-Bob .. proud American malcontent!
"You've got to accentuate the positive
Eliminate the negative
Latch on to the affirmative
Don't mess with Mister In-Between
"You've got to spread joy up to the maximum
Bring gloom down to the minimum
Have faith or pandemonium
Liable to walk upon the scene
(Johnny Mercer / Harold Arlen)
This is a problem - because our hearts our pure, we have the strength of ten men, and our SUVs have the exhaust of a bicycle?
I do agree on mass condemnation being counter productive - unless of course, what you are condemning is worthy of it.
I did read on a GlobalWarming Denier site that the Author thought a Hummer was greener than a bike.. something to do with how much extra food the cyclist was eating. I wonder what his Body Mass Index is?
Thing is, I'm not championing our strengths to justify our prodigious wastefulness, but to say that there are positives that can be focused on and amplified, to fill the yearning empty space in the garage where the Explorer used to sit.
But to slam the door on the whole scene is like an overly righteous preacher simply declaring you a sinner.. end of story. To get people out of a bad set of habits, you have to give them somewhere to go TO, not just call them names and wag fingers at them..
The only German slogan I could yank from errinerung was..
"Wenn vor Fliegen fliegen Fliegen, fliegen Fliegen' Fliegen nach.."
- Obey your Thirst!
This is one reason it is so easy to believe in doom, at least in an American context.
And one reason some people see peak oil in such dramatic terms.
Personally, I think a lot of things will either be returning to their long term mean (housing prices/debt ratios/stock prices), or changing from what they have been over the last 10 or 20 years (the climate has actually been very friendly for a good half generation). These changes will happen, regardless of what individuals believe or do. How we handle those changes is another matter.
My high schooler is being forced to read the The Great Gatsby (1925 by F. Scott Fitzgerald) and as usual, I am forced to swim into the book myself. Written before the Great Depression and while Fitzgerald was oversees, looking back on the Roaring 20's culture of his expatriated country, the author already senses that something is not quite right, that the American Dream (that dim green light which is forever out of reach of Jay Gatsby's outstreched hand) is unsustainable, and already it is too late.
In the last page of the book (here), Nick the narator lies down on the sands of Long Island Sound and through osmosis with the ground he sucks in three centuries worth of history and an understanding of the ClusterFucked Nation that is about to be:
Haven't been able to reread the book since.
Gatsby (written in 1925) is a tough book for high schoolers IMO. They don't have the historical background to understand what the Roaring 20's was like in America, to understand about Prohibition, about gangsters, about fixing the World Series ... or about the Market Plunge that was about to hit the "Happy Times are Here" cornucopian crowd shortly after in 1929. Often English teachers are ill equipped to teach the historical context. Instead they focus their energies on asking students to discover vivid white and ghostly colors in the text and to write 20 page essays on that literary crayon technique.
If you think about it, aside from the glamorous parties that take place at Jay Gatsby's palacial Long Island beach house, the book is also about America's love affair with the automobile (
yellow cars). The love-struck Gatsby and flippy Daisy are a bunch of "bad drivers" who join forces to bring death and destruction to all around them. And then Daisy moves on, without so much as glance back at what she contributed to. Very American."The sentimentalist is he who would enjoy without incurring the immense debtorship for a thing done." We are a nation of sentimentalists.
If we move away from using oil and start using a more expensive energy source, we are reducing productivity and stunting growth. Reducing growth and productivity is painful, too. As for which one is more painful, doomsday scenarios always sound more painful.
The same thing happens for global warming. If we implement steps to curb pollution without increasing productivity for the global economy, then we will stunt growth.
The idea that implementing drastic solutions will not cause harm is a false comfort. Of course, for individuals who spend less, this is all good. For a company to spend more to improve energy efficiency and not be able to recoup the added costs, then this company will be hurt and may lead to layoffs. When looking back at 20/20 hindsight, the extra investments were a waste of resources.
So as you can see, the economy is sensitive to drastic regulation changes. There are methods to implement energy efficiency without reducing productivity, so it is not all bad to believe in Peak Oil or Global Warming. But drastic regulations must be carefully thought out and definitely, we should not fall into a the false myth that these types of regulations have no pain.
increasing productivity for the global economy is a false comfort
we should not fall into the false myth that productivity and growth have no pain.
Oh, OK, enough of that. "Believe in Peak Oil or Global Warming"!?! How 'bout we just look at the data and evidence all around us.
"It's not a matter of principle. It's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of recognition" C.T. Canon
It's the belief in the ultimate good of growth without end that has got us into this colossal mess.
Productivity and growth are what we need less of. And we'll get less of 'em both in the most painful way possible thanks to our collective heads being in the sand all this time.
As for PO and GW, I do believe in those, too. Yes, it is a belief as these are theories and not facts. I am talking about the idea that peak oil and global warming are eminent and solutions need to be drastic. If you are talking about oil will peak any time in the future with no time line, then you are right and that is a fact and not just a hypothesis. Same with GW, if you are saying the temperatures are rising, then that is a fact, but if you are saying higher temperatures will lead to changing our lives, then it is a hypothesis.
Reducing productivity and stunting growth is not a disaster. It is a discomfort.
Displacing a billion people who live in coastal areas and potentially shifting the climate in the corn belt is an unprecedented disaster.
There was a few posters who said implementing changes away from oil will not cause major grief, which is simply not true.
I have specifically call it that it is a weighing of which one is more painful and I said doomsday scenarios are more painful.
This is why CERA's opaque, arrogant, but insistent stance on there being no problem is really setting us up for the worst of all possible scenarios.
Thus my banging of the drum for more Urban Rail. A relatively low cost "carrot" that will enhance the lives of the minority of early adopters.
In the later stages, Peak Oil will be a hammer and not a stick. Urban rail and their surrounding communities have the potential to be a shelter from those hammer blows, partially deflecting them. The alternative is to be pounded to death by the hammer.
If PO is long delayed, then the minority will enjoy their "alternative lifestayle".
Best Hopes,
Alan
A lot of people still use incandescent light bulbs, which are completely energy inefficient. Switching to a flurescent or LED light doesn't result in one having any less light, it only results in less power being used. This is just one example, but it shows how we can use energy more efficiently without it in fact impacting our lives negatively. I believe in the grand scheme a similar, more or less painless, substitution can be accomplished in the vast majority of circumstances.
Your choice to focus on poor people who will suffer (go without health care?) is a bit odd. People are already going without health care for reasons other than energy. You're focusing on a very specific issue and attributing the entire problem to energy, when the situation is much more complex. For example, the United States could spend (waste) 400 billion less on the military, and use that money to easily foot the cost of increased health care for everyone, while also increasing energy efficiency.
So, anyway, there is something to what you are saying. As you can see in the past paragraph I suggest taking money from somewhere else, which does imply there is a price. But I disagree with you that there's always a hefty price to pay. In many situations there really is not. I simply don't accept that telling people not to run their computers 24/7 is a serious hardship. Most people are just pissing power away, so I think it's hard to call curtailing such behavior as being a hardship.
My example was to show how reducing energy availability will cause hard ship. This does not mean this is the primary cause of hard ship, which it is not nor does it mean that lots of low cost energy will prevent hard ship.
The best estimate of the cost of decarbonising (stabilising CO2 at 500ppm) is 1% of world GDP in 2050. See the UK Treasury Stern Review.
Now the range is large,(it is even negative on some estimates) -3% to 10%. The difference being what happens to the resources that you divert from burning high carbon fuels.
If we take 4% say, as being 4 times the Stern Review cost.
Then we are saying world GDP in January 2050 will only be what it would have been in June of 2048. That GDP in any case will be 2.5 times what it is now ie around $100 trillion (or about $10,000 per person on the planet) vs. $45 trillion (approx) now.
I think that is a price the world economy can afford to pay.
The reason we have to get started *now* is the cost of damages, the risk of uncontrollable climate change (positive feedback loops making human action irrelevant) and the cost of switching long life capital assets (coal fired power plants etc.) grows exponentially over time.
Let's say that relative to the alternative, it is discomfort. It is the difference between amputating a toe, or amputating both legs. When you weigh the risk, best to be very, very conservative.
I have no qualms with that answer.
Earlier posts stated people were better off implementing PO mitigation regulations, even if PO never happens. This is incorrect.
Now, you are saying the costs are justified. That is different than saying there are no costs.
What value does reducing his auto deaths and life altering disabilities have ?
What value does reducing air pollution have ?
What value does reducing our obesity crisis have ? (With the coming epidemic of diabetes ?)
What value does living in a socially complex urban area over suburban isolation have ?
What value does bicycling to work, school or shopping have on good days ?
What value does being able to get to work by any means after the founding of the Islamic Republic of Arabia have ?
All these values should be considered when deciding whether to fund Urban Rail.
I realise it may sound offending but if your ideas take off there is a great chance USA may become a human-friendly (as opposed to car-friendly) country. Or probably revert to that state, I'm not sure...
But one cannot easily "sell" that idea. How does one sell what others cannot easily comphrehend ?
And Urban Rail does not automatically create such neighborhoods, but they often break the suburban isolation. I hope what you say is true, for we could have a better quality of life post-Peak Oil.
Best Hopes,
Alan
I just want to point out one negative fact. In San Francisco, public rail service is three times slower than cars/taxis. It takes 45 minutes to commute from the outskirts of SF by rail(MUNI) to downtown. People can drive that distance in 15 minutes during commute or even 5 minutes when no traffic and speeding. The 45minutes commute is pretty bad when you think that people who live in suburbs can have shorter commute than people who live in the city's outskirts. These people are living less than 7 miles away from downtown and take longer than people who live 10-20 miles away.
The rail systems for the suburbs who live 10-20 miles away take about same time as cars/driving. So from time perspective, cars are so much better- you get there fast with no hassles, even with traffic as long as no accidents. San Francisco area also have lots of rail accidents or malfunctions, so it is not like rail service is more consistent in meeting schedules. Also, parking fees in SF downtown are expensive, but rail costs are not cheap either. They tend to offset each other with rail being cheaper the closer you live to the city.
I think this is systematic issue.
I am coming from European country and I can safely say: the time I'm losing here for driving, finding parking places, car maintainance etc. is more than the time I was spending for transportation in my home country, where I dod not own a car.
The money I was spending there for transportaion were some 10-15% of my income (which was some $350/month), and here I'm spending the same percentage of my income for transportation, though it is close to a magnitude higher. Both places I was going wherever I wanted to go.
The only thing I seem to "gain" here, is some convenience - the 10-15 minute walk+waiting at the bus stop or to the taxi stand is replaced with 2-3 minute trip to the car. I can also drive to wherever I want to without spending the time to research which are the buses that go there.
In the whole Europe the question is resolved uniformly - the bulk of personal transportation is by some form of mass transit - bus, rail or plane plus the most natural one - walking. Cars are for recreation purposes and for the more affluent. Generally they are seen as socially adverse phenomenon and are heavily taxed because of that. Coming here I easily understood the rationale behind it.
Having said all of this, I realise that "fixing" the current US setup is a very hard task (the word "fixing" I used is my opinion I don't want to offend anyone). Mass transit simply does not fit well in cities that were not built with a transit oriented development at the first place. The whole development is predicated on the readily available access to huge resources - energy, material etc. It has been created in a way so that big businesses can benefit from economies of scale as far as possible, but the idea that the resources to maintain it will not be enough has obviously never occured to its designers. Pity...
Does this include car payments or just public transportation?
I spend $200 for monthly train and parking pass. I drive to train station to commute. Most people think I pay too much. People like to spend $50 or so, but may end up paying close to $100. Sounds like EU gets better transportation because people are paying more for it.
I disagree. Just take a look at our current energy consumption. 90% of it goes into non-essential activities - driving, flying, having A/C etc. etc. You are basically idolising the term "growth" and hiding the essentials which are in the details. Is 2% growth of the US economy of the same "value" as 2% growth of poor countries like China or India? I don't think so. Any effort to mitigate global warming must be also fair and socially acceptable. It must not hit the essentials and the most vulnerable groups. I will not agree a poor peasant in China to be paying the same price as a Holwood millioneire. For that purpose carbon credits must be established based on the number of the population, not on some artificial constructs as GDP.
But of course the affluent countries will never agree on that. They are more than happy to put the blame on countries like China or India because of their normal desire to reach some decent standard of living, conveniently forgetting who is in fact the biggest sinner in the house.
"There are methods to implement energy efficiency without reducing productivity..."
I am saying exactly what you are saying that it is possible to implement energy reduction without hurting people, but the idea that drastic energy reduction does not hurt people is wrong. And I am not only limiting to developing world. This is a known issue for even Americans. If you put a carbon tax, the people that gets hurt the most are the people who can ill afford it. So you must balance that out by giving them support.
What I am saying here is something that most economists and public policy officials already know and do implement. I have no idea why so many people here find it hard to swallow.
I would suggest that history does have precedents. Greenland Vikings, Mayan civilization, Khmer civilization, Anasazi civilization and more.
Alan
"Fertilizer shortages can be a real problem."
A real problem?
Think of it this way if you will.
Corn without fertilizer. 30 bu/acre or less.
Corn with fertilizer 150 bu/acre or more.
The sooner high fructose corn syrup is removed from our diets the better.
An interesting story on that. I have been a 2 Coke a day guy for a long time. Hate coffee, but need the caffeine. So, I was having my physical exam for my overseas assignment, and the doctor says "Your blood glucose is a bit high." I was alarmed, so I cut the Cokes and all refined sugar out of my diet. I lost 6 lbs in 3 days and dropped 10 points on my blood glucose. I wasn't overweight to begin with (11% body fat) but I was amazed at how fast my weight dropped after cutting out the sugar.
But round about, you have hit on it, my friend. metabolism is the word and the new paradigm. Don't touch the mike, baby, don't come near it.
This is for you, Paulus, and JKissing.
Read Tertzakian's 'Thousand Barrels.' If you already have - Do it again, but alone, relaxed, with notepaper in hand, no internet or computer near you, and preferably a good bottle of Mearns-recommended Red by your side.
So much better than Twilight. And I've read both four times. Still. Nobody asks me to review them.
And for God's sake, read "The Prize" at next opportunity. Just don't tell anyone here.
http://babyandkidallergies.com/high_fructose_corn_syrup.php
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002658491_healthsyrup04.html
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/79/4/537
My prediction: soon obese diabetics will be in court suing the HFCS industry much as smokers have been suing the satanic tobacco merchants. And predictably the denial industry is busy.
Thanks,
Alan
This means you harvest 3 crops in a 2 year time frame.
Now this is always not the rule and some will not go into wheat maybe, depending on the futures and the market. But its usually wise to always get the nitrogen fixing via legumes such as soybeans. They factor that in of course. Its part of their planning.
Now as to the comments above on frutose. This shows a lot of out and out ignorance as corn is a very very healthy and useful grain. IMO far better than wheat.
You want to bitch about something? Bitch about the bran that is not in the white processed flour.
Corn has lots of energy. Southerners , no matter what the yankees say, eat healthy food.
There are many studies that prove what I say and so copious that I don't intend to list them. Harvard has an excellent one. Niacin is plentiful in corn. This is very beneficial for chlorestrol control.
We also drink lots of ice tea. Full of anti-oxidents. Lots of fish as well. and so on...yada yada...
However to stop growing corn? Silly.
For my part though we could pitch the soybeans.Yuk.
No. It's not population.
It's population *with resource use and environmental pollution as we now have it*.
145 million Bangladeshis do less damage to the world's environment than 10 million Americans.
The average Bangladeshi eats something like a 10th as many raw calories as the average American. Half as many calories per person, but far, far less animal protein.
What we need to do is evolve systems and ways of living that maintain or increase our current standard of living (no one is asking us to give up cancer therapies!), but are less stressful on the ecosystem and emit less Co2.
If you just contrast the average Swede with the average American, in terms of ecological footprint, you can see how much can be achieved.
I choose Sweden because on any measure of well being, Swedes are better off than Americans. GDP per capita is about 80% of US levels.
If the near-peak thesis holds, then at the very least we're likely to experience severe economic distress of one sort or another over the next couple of decades, and as always the politicians will be looking for some fall guys to deflect any accusations of negligence on their own part.
I only hope for CERA's sake that if the worst case scenario transpires that they will be able to demonstrate complete objectivity on their own part, with no evidence of their analysis being influenced by considerations of vested interests.
This is why this rebuttal of Dave's is so important. It lays out logically why CERA are playing footloose with both facts and evidence, and playing a PR game which could prove disastrous for us all.
Hear, hear!! I couldn't agree more. These arent games that are being played - how people interpret/hear of CERA's report has concrete, real world implications. Hiding behind an opaque wall makes it appear to me to be akin to a PR stunt or, conversely, a very serious attempt to sway public opinion by someone. I lean toward the latter.
I fear for the future.
Todd
One can also ask "so what if the gloom componentof TOD is wrong? Well, what about those that cocooned in 1991 and went to live in the mountains? And all those every year thereafter. They'd be quite pissed off. Or at least their wives and kids would be...
History since the mid 70's shows us that it is as irresponsible for the doomers to be wrong as the optimists. Life is about failed opportunities for both.
Not necessarily. Maybe they' be thrilled that they hadn't been trapped into the suburban-SUV-student debt racket like their counterparts.
The hubby might be in much better physical shape if he's not being exposed to all the estrogen-mimicing chemical in the food and water supply. He would thus retain his virility much longer then his suburban living, SUV driving counterpart. And this would likely keep his wife happy too. =)
Speaking of the wife, she might not have breast cancer like so many of her suburban living, SUV driving counterparts which have been linked to the various chemicals that you can't get away from unless you do go live in the mountains away from society.
You're still assumming that our "way of life" is superior to something simpler and less complex. It's like if you pulled your head out of your ass the light might hurt your eyes and you'd want to go back to the great sights and smells of your previous arrangement.
CERA seems happy enough to do so as well.
Bravo. You've sniffed them out.
What our IHS embeds (Freddy & Hothgor) seem to be saying is that it is a capital idea to keep pumping noxious combustion byproducts into the atmosphere decade after decade. But now I understand why they can't smell the coffee. They inhabit a dimension of sights and sounds that would repel the more civilized amongst us.
Here is a quote: "The next oil crunch will not be so temporary. Our analysis of the discovery and production of oil fields around the world suggests that within the next decade, the supply of conventional oil will be unable to keep up with demand."
Is Freddy going to argue that conventional oil, referred to by the authors as "readily accessible crude", has not peaked?
But as said in an earlier thread: nobody cares. Nobody cares about conventional oil stats. "All liquids" has been the accepted definition for almost five years.
This should be your second strike - and I haven't even finished reading the thread. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. This isn't a grade school pissing match. Kick him off.
Look, I consider myself pretty novice, but it seems obvious that touting "all liquids" is a straw-man of sorts. The definition does not, to my knowledge, account for the fact that ethanol and other biofuels require the input of fossil fuels to make; thus untill this is sorted out, the growing "all liquids" category is cooking the books by double counting.
I've never made such prediction! My opinion is that peak for Crude Oil + Condensate + NGPL is somewhere around 2012 +/- 5 years.
Freddy's statement is without meaning. In reality the consumer cares about price. It is the relationship between the quality of the energy resource and the consumer's ability to pay, which obviously eludes Freddy and his new sidekick.
LOL. Why do you think the ethanol industry needs all those subsidies? Because with the horribly low ERoEI of Ethanol you can't get it at a comparable price to gasoline.
And how many barrels of ethanol do you imagine will get produced in the future when we run out of NG to make fertilizer. How about zero.
To include the average driver's purchase decisions in a 'total liquids' question is a red herring. The price at the pump doesn't tell the consumer how many barrels it cost to get that fuel out of the ground, or how much political or military finnagling it took to secure it. There is some awareness of the broader issues of energy and politics, but private citizens can't cast that vote at the Quicky Mart, they apply that pressure, if they can, in the ballot box or op-eds, etc..
But, within the stability of the US electorate, this was a seachange (1994 Gingrich revolution was +54 House seats and a handful of Senate seats from memory. That is a "revolution", not a "sea change").
Best Hopes for understanding by Canucks :-P
Alan
This kid is punching so hard he got Westexas to sit down and take a breather for a few days.
Strike #3 What did you just contribute to this discussion? Zero. Go away please.
Oily,
Pretending you are someone else is not going to work. We can smell your writing style from a mile away. Is your new moniker an encryption for something else? The Gamide of Oz? Why disguise yourself? Just be yourself. But be sober. Keep it real. Thanks.
From a very shallow reading of blogs and news reports, I get the impression there are three major groupings of peak date predictions: 2005-2009, 2010-2015, and 2035-2045. Is that correct, or are there significant numbers of predictions that fall in the 2015-2035 period?
Our article which uses Texas and the Lower 48 as a model for Saudi Arabia and the world.
Peak Oil Update - October 2006: Production Forecasts and EIA Oil Production Numbers
I agree with your grouping of forecasts, note that they also differ on the fuel category they are trying to model (All Liquids, Crude Oil, etc.).
The next update is due in the next few days.
http://www.trendlines.ca/
In 1990 I asked a Shell Oil lobbyist about the veracity of Hubbert's Curve and the forecast date of peak. He wouldn't tell me a date of peak, but he did say the world would effectively run out of oil by 2060. The only forecast that comes close to that is Chris Skrebowski's.
Dave, a great summary. I would just like to add a comment about reservoir energy in relation to production flow rates.
Reservoir energy has three main components:
Bouyancy of the oil - floating on water beneath a seal
Aquifer drive the ability of the water to flow into the reservoir and displace the oil
Dissolved gas that expands during depressurisation, helping force oil up a well
In a good field with a good reservoir and light oil, these factors combined may lead to single well flow rates of 50,000 + per day.
One thing that is happening to global oil production is that reservoir energy is being depleted on a global scale. We now have tens of thousands of aging fields in production, where the natural reservoir energy is spent, many fields where the watery oil needs to be pumped at relatively low rates. There may be plenty oil left in the ground (reserves) but without the reservoir energy flow rates will fall.
Gas cap expansion drive reservoirs are a subset of the Dissolved gas set.
Note that as an oil column thins between an advancing water leg and an expanding gas cap, it is very easy for water and gas to bypass the oil, so at this stage of production, continued high production rates--even in super giant fields--is quite detrimental to the remaining recovery.
This situation--a rapdily thinning oil column between a gas cap and a water leg--is precisely the problem facing operators of the two largest producing fields in the world, Ghawar and Cantarell, which at one time accounted for 10% of world crude + condensate production.
The obvious way to avoid it is to slow the drawdown to where this vortex does not form.
Take, as a critical example, Ghawar. Production was cut dramatically (per reports, KSA Aramco does not do field by field monthly production reports) for several years as oil prices hovered in the $12 range.
Matthew Simmons quotes a paper that discusses the natural increase in reservior drive at Ghawar during that time.
In my mind, I imagined that things "settled down" and gas/oil/water layers evened out naturally. Low pressure areas near the wells were balanced with higher pressure areas further away.
What this means is that we have a Hobson's choice.
- Produce as much oil now as possible, with steep declines within years to a decade, or
- Produce less now, and maximize the total oil recovered with a much more modest decline rate "later".
Worried,Alan
This thread refers to the Haradh sector of Ghawar... http://www.theoildrum.com/comments/2006/2/8/233314/5260/3#3
Forties wouldn't have produced what, 2.4 billion barrels of oil (and, OK, several billion barrels of water) in 30 years without some help from WI. Maybe in a few centuries... the Forties aquifer is pretty big.
Favorite line of the week.
I can't think clearly without sketching in my notebook first. I won't kill for raw data, but I'm not afraid to piss people off if I think they're dragging their feet on turning round a log analysis or some such. Once I've got the data, I treat it with the suspicion that all oilfield measurements deserve. I try to frame problems geometrically in whatever space seems convenient; if that doesn't work, symbolically. I explain stuff in human terms - this unfamilar thing is as big as that other thing you are familiar with (the 20 MMbbl that the US consumes daily is equal to the bulk volume of the Twin Towers - golly gee). I picked this stuff up over decades of working with operating oilfields and winning and losing arguments with the people who keep them running. I've seen waves of technology come and go and leave a slowly accumulating residue of what really works on real reservoirs. I don't flatter myself that what I write on TOD will do anything other than entertain or offend.
¿Ya Basta?
Don't underestimate yourself, your comments are one of the sharpests you can find on TOD. I wish you could comment more often.
I second Khebab's comment.
Cheers!
You can add an additional dimension to the TOD POV & analysis !
Alan
FYI: I keep a notebook too. Need those visuals.
Think anyone noticed yet?


Having written that, I decided to go back and check. Here are numbers in annual average billion cubic feet per day - consumption for countries, gas injection in Prudhoe Bay.
- USA 61.3
- Russia 39.2
- UK 9.2
- Canada 8.8
- Iran 8.6
- Germany 8.3
- Japan 7.8 (mostly LNG I guess)
- Italy 7.6
- Prudhoe Bay 7.5
- Ukraine 7.0
- Africa 6.9 (the whole continent!)
- Saudi Arabia 6.7
I can't be bothered getting that table to line up. I know consumption and injection are different things, but only eight countries consume more gas than Prudhoe Bay injects.Seeing this from a different perspective, though a bit hypothetical :
If the USA were to collapse alone without too much "collateral damage" that will make a LOT of breathing room for the rest of the world.
And, may be, just may be, that will be some sort of a "lesson" for the rest of the energy hogs, hmmm...
Just dreaming!
IMO the CERA report is also fatally flawed in two other ways. The "unconventional oil resources" that they use in thei reserve estimates are bitumen(tar) and Kerogen (oil shale, neither of which I would consider oil but rather precursors to synthetic fuel. Oil is a liquid hydrocarbon at 70 degrees , so farenheight, so is condensate.
The logic of my position is proven by the case of coal which can also be extracted and refined to a syntetic oil. The only reason that CERA and Exxon don't rename coal as unconventional oil and add them to the reserve base is people would laugh at this and then question their other sourses that they call "unconventional oil". Its a big lie andwe need to call them on it.
The other serious flaw that you fail to call them on is the price of extraction. If or when oil rises to $200/bbl we'll see a huge gain in recoverable reserves. An operation like the East Texas Field, which currently produces 4200 gallons of salt water for every bbl of production then m makes economic sense producing 12000 gallons of salt water for every bbl of oil. There might be as much "economicially recoverable" oil as was originally in place! Of course this is ludicrous, but I'm following their logic on field expansions. Just because our economy has collapsed and gasoline costs $10/gallon doesn't mean we've run out of oil, its just no one can afford it. That will really soften the slope of Hubbert's graphs!
Two things that bother me most are the claims in their Press Release:
1) "It is not helpful to couch the debate in terms of a superficial analysis of reservoir constraints."
TOD has frequently discussed the geology of reservoir constraints and the means of dealing with these constraints. Are the analysis here "superficial" ? Does CERA ever analyse these geologic constratins and offer (publically or privately) something more than "superficial" analysis?
2) "It will be aboveground factors such as geopolitics, conflict, economics and technology that will dictate the outcome."
Isn't it CERA that is being "unhelpful by couching the debate" in terms of things we do not have control over (geopolitics), unproven/untested technologies, and projections of available sources of oil from unconventional resources?
They seem to be saying ignore what you are seeing (actual data, declining giant fields and failed CERA projections) and the current known technical limitations, and instead bet on our ability to forecast based on unknowns and uncontrolable forces.
I could rephrase what they say like this:
How's that? I'm getting sick & tired of these guys distorting our position. I also find it insulting that CERA talks as though they think we're not smart enough to figure all this out.Give me a break.
Dave,
First off, Great Post.
Obviously you've been up all night cobbling it together.
Now that you've finished (a masterpiece) ... it's time to "step back" and ask yourself: "Why did I do this?" or more to the point, for "whom" did I do this?
If your answer is simply to impress the regular readers at TOD, then you have done a good job. But then again you are the prima baritone in our choir and of course we will always applaud each of your in-church performances to us, the choir.
On the other hand, if you think that CERA presents itself as being in "a debate" with us and as willing to do a point, counterpoint with us regarding the merits of Hubbert Linearization, you are sadly mistaken.
CERA doesn't care what TOD regulars think. They are talking past us as if we were ghosts in the room. They are talking eye to eye with the MSM journalists. They are hoping that the journalists will parrot their words to the unsophisticated public. And if that happens (as it has), then they have pleased their masters. That is really all CERA cares about.
Now if your true intent is to get MSM attention, then you need to speak eye to eye with them, not with fellow TOD posters.
MSM journalists are, of course, notoriously lazy. They don't write their own story. They get you to write it for them. Then they copy tanatlizing snips of it into their MSM columns.
You've got to make it easy for them by including all the help they can use, like a Table of Contents (ToC) that features tantalizing headlines:
- Why is the brewing fight between CERA and TOD crucial to the growth of Western markets?
- What is OIL (of the crude type), and why should you care?
- Why is the timing of peak production so important?
- ... (I haven't thought it out this far ahead yet)
But let's get back to headline #1. This gives you an opportunity to pose some further questions: 1a. Who is CERA? 1b. What are their credentials? 1c. Who pays them and why? 1d. Who is TOD? 1e. What are their credentials? 1f. Who pays them and if not why do they do all this for no money (are they nuts)?CERA has more power and money to support their postion in this "Information War" and therefore will win the battle in the minds of public sentiment except for the few that actively go find their own sources like here at TOD.
How do we, TOD, who is the underdog, the "insurgent" in this battle go against such a formidable antagonist?
Today is Milton Friedman's day. (RIP)
Great Post, Dave!-- I will go to Reddit shortly to help promote it. Dragonfly41: how true, we need to engage the MSM to see us as 'data-driven insurgents' against CERA.
Now I am no legal-beagle, but if enviros can sue the President for not actively engaging GW-- can TOD initiate a class-action suit against CERA/IHS to release their proprietary database? At a minimum, can Matt Simmons, Colin Campbell, and Chris Skrewbowski be legally given a brief peek at CERA's dataset to report to the world at large?
Ideally, can the United Nations sue for full data transparency of global fossil fuel resources in the Hague? I agree with Dave and Simmons that Peakoil is too important for crucial data to be held back by the key players.
Even if a series of lawsuits ultimately ended up going nowhere, it sure would generate MSM interest in the CERA/TOD debate. There has got to be some lawyers somewhere willing to tackle this issue--they got kids that they want to help survive postPeak, too.
Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
I think it is safe to assume you are reading this keythread by Dave Cohen. Daniel, if you are so confident of your predictions based upon your proprietary dataset: why don't you volunteer to let Simmons, Campbell, and Skrebowski examine this dataset in detail? My guess is that an appropriate non-disclosure legal agreement could be worked up that meets the requirements of all concerned.
We TODers just want to know that
our dataset mostly mirrors yours. Would you be averse to Khebab or Stuart Staniford evaluating your dataset if your legal requirements could be met? Please send an email reply to Prof. Goose & Dave Cohen to start legal negotiations.Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Furthermore, I think it safe to assume your
Corporationregularly downloads and datamines the info here on TOD--which possibly gives TOD a legal pretext to sue under the violation of "fair use of info posted on the WWW". Your use of TOD infofor profitis, IMO, on very shaky legal ground. Class-action lawsuits are expensive, time-consuming, and messy: we TODers would much prefer to have SS & Khebab be invited to evaluate your dataset. Quid Pro Quo is much cheaper and effective legal solution. Again, please email the TOD principals your non-disclosure legal requirements. Thx you for your prompt reply.Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Sorry.
Most think-tanks get it wrong, and the leaders of the think-tank have gotten the past wrong. Better to drag up the past mistakes by a 3rd party and make sure anytime they have a press release, the 3rd party has a press release that says 'they were wrong here, here and here. Why should you believe they are right this time?'. That effort would get ya farther than a lawsuit.
I see an "abuse of process" countersuit here. chill.
Okey-Dokey, no problema'. I just think that if all the various factions [2005-2009, 2010-2014, 2015 to infinity]could somehow agree to pool the FF data--it would take the discussion level up a notch-- nothing more than trying to achieve the maximal amount possible of the full data transparency that Simmons advocates for in his book.Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Of course anyone with $150 can file a lawsuit here in Texas, and its easy to find the right forms at the library. I just think it is a useless ploy! Now if we find out the Department of Energy is paying for studies to bolster a Cornucopian view for the Bush League its a different matter. But I have no reason to think thats true.
Thxs for responding, I, too, have no legal expertise. I just hope some attorneys on TOD can post a response to my mini-thread as to its legal validity--AMPOD, ENVIRO-ATTY?
At some future point, I believe the issue of FF's data transparency will move to the Courts and the Hague so that scientific debate, and the resulting policy decisions, can be more narrowly focussed, then disseminated to the World. IMO, this is far better than the full-on nuclear gift exchange. If Enviros can sue for Global Warming, we TODers should be able to sue for Peakoil.
Unless revocation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights occurs under the Patriot Act-- the World has a right to know the best estimation of just how much is left in the
Detritus Commons. That way we can better prepare to optimize the decline to try an avert the fullTragedy.Bob Shaw in Phx,Az Are Humans Smarter than Yeast?
Howdy folks, been away helping to set up 'TUE':
http://www.dylan.org.uk/utopia/utopia.html
so not had much online time. Good to see CERA are being consistent, they are always useful in showing me the (contrarian) truth, I look forward to their predictions on economic and geopolitical matters.
On, perhaps, a more serious note (and AMPOD might want to comment as a lawyer), It would be interesting were someone on TOD to attempt to buy the report. My guess is that they have "conditions" as to who they sell it to such as "a credible company with a need to know" or some such. The price I saw was $1k but were it $100k I'd chip in a hundred bucks.
Why do this? First, if CERA refused to sell it's report it could be legally attacked (I believe) for refuing to sell it's product. In other words, it placed unrasonable conditions on the sale of its product. Second, it would clearly violate copyright, and I'm sure other clauses in the report to post excerpts, but it would give the reader an understanding of the algorithyms that CERA used in devloping the reoprt. Like patents, it is possible to probably work around this
If they refused to sell the report, then a legal attack could be mounted with AMPOD volunteering to do it pro bono. Hell, man, think of all those chicks who would want to, um, join the commune if you won.
Todd
Come on. You just quoted stuff from the press release whereas we have all agrued, "Where's the transparency" WRT to how they quantitatively arrived at their projections. You provided the qualitative stuff, more growth.
Todd
I think we want to
compare databaseswith CERA. Base facts, lowest common empirical denominator, etc.Second thing second, the only cause of action you might have is for "undulating asshatery" and I don't know where you're gonna file that suit.
And, correct me if I am wrong, but a) aren't there two Ts in asshattery? and b) shouldn't it be capitalized...simply because it looks better that way?
I was thinking and here is a theory on why CERA released this report now, with Democrats in Congress.
The report appears directed at politicans --
CERA has now framed the debate in terms of eventually declining oil supplies. The only question is when and what will it look like. This at least will get lawmakers thinking (hopefully).
This report may be aimed to reach lawmakers who have already made up their mind that peak oil is wrong, or don't know much about oil but assume oil supply will continue to increase forever (this second oppinion is I think widely held). Most people don't read both sides of an argument -- once the see a headline most people will only read views that confirm their opinions.
They will read the first paragraph and say "Ah ha!" Then they will read the rest of the report and realize that CERA at its most optimistic states that oil will "plateau" for a decade or more and then decline -- realizing that at most optimistic oil is finite and relies heavily on oil sands and enhanced recovery even to stay even.
You could be on to something here. I will keep an eye out for more PO "conditioning" being placed sporadically throughout the MSM to see if this is the underlying purpose.
Could it be?